Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Health => Topic started by: razmatazz on August 17, 2009, 12:46:57 am
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sorry for the gross topic, but i have a question.
I'm mostly raw paleo (in addition to meat and fat i sometimes eat fermented fruit or veg but very rarely) therefore consume almost zero fiber.
In recent weeks my BMs have normalized, in that I'm very regular and stools are mainly a type 5 on the bristol stool charthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Stool_Scale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Stool_Scale)
However sometimes i notice a sticky mucus-like substance on the toilet paper, sometimes with orangey bits.. ???
Uusually you hear of the body producing mucus to protect from the harsh effects of fiber...but as i consume practically none this can;'t be the cause..
I emailed Konstantin Monastyrsky, author of Fiber Menace and he said "Assuming, you are indeed seeing a mucus, It may be a sign of inflammatory bowel disease (colitis), or a symptom of a necrotizing tumor."
first of all...after googling colitis i read a main sympton is diarrhoea (sp?) which i most certainly do not have...and second of all...necrotizing tumor??!?!? aaaah, i'm only 18! :o :'(
Apart from that i feel absolutely fine...no change in anything else whatsoever...please someone help me understand this!
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first of all...after googling colitis i read a main sympton is diarrhoea (sp?) which i most certainly do not have...and second of all...necrotizing tumor??!?!? aaaah, i'm only 18! :o :'(
Apart from that i feel absolutely fine...no change in anything else whatsoever...please someone help me understand this!
Rule #1. Do not panic.
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My guess is that it is a detox reaction.
As for "normalized" BMs, that depends on so many things that it's mostly worthless. For instance normal for a person easily old enough to be your great grandfather is every three to five days except when I eat peaches, then it's every morning, and the turds (before peach season) normally remind me of the Norwegian euphemism "laying a cable", while last year they were like those of Eskimos.
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This may give others a new/different/questionable picture on the subject; the quote is from the zerocarb forum and may be interesting for members of this forum?
I rarely if ever have bowel movements anymore. When I do "go" there is no matter or substance, only a slight discharge of fluid. Has eating pemmican for 5 years allowed my system to become so adept at assimilating and digesting that it no longer produces waste? What does this mean for my colon? Is it really necessary for me to have a colon at all? If evolution has required a shortening of the digestive system then wouldn't this be supreme evolution? If you don't use it you lose it. Perhaps I'm in the process of ridding myself of the bodies most notorious "bad boy". I guess I'll have to see where this is going!
Delfuego
http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=597&page=88
Nicola
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This DelFuego guy certainly enjoys making outrageously unlikely claims!
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This may give others a new/different/questionable picture on the subject; the quote is from the zerocarb forum and may be interesting for members of this forum?
http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=597&page=88
Nicola
Their admin Charles says his experience is similar in a post two down from DelFuego's:
http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=597&pid=121084#pid121084 (http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=597&pid=121084#pid121084)
As incredible as it sounds to me, I am getting tired of carbs. I'm getting closer to deciding to try this. Maybe I should do it for the Winter. I imagine that's what I'd have to do if I lived here outdoors 24/7 all year round. I imagine it would be handy for animals living outdoors not to go #2 on the freezing ice, and then fairly directly fertilize the ground in Spring. The green Spring grass can cover it too, where less precipitation in the dry of Winter may not, just thinking esthetics. Pardon my poo talk.
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The fact that wild carnivores have solid, sizeable stools(and able to be tracked) should indicate, rather strongly, that DelFuego et al are telling porkies! It's one thing to claim that a ZC diet leads to smaller, less frequent stools, but this liquid hypothesis is clearly bogus.
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The fact that wild carnivores have solid, sizeable stools(and able to be tracked) should indicate, rather strongly, that DelFuego et al are telling porkies! It's one thing to claim that a ZC diet leads to smaller, less frequent stools, but this liquid hypothesis is clearly bogus.
To my knowledge, wild carnivores don't eat pemmican, and Delfuego is not a wild carnivore.
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To my knowledge, wild carnivores don't eat pemmican, and Delfuego is not a wild carnivore.
I heartily agree. Please note that the big difference between us and wild carnivores including our supposed simian ancestors is the high fat consumption of pemmican-eaters (pemmicaneers? :) ) and the fact that our meat is powdered.
I postulate that paleoman ate that fat and fatty parts, and left the lean meat for the dogs, wolves, foxes and other scavengers including L. Cordain. That's assuming we did not eat pemmican, but I'm coming to suspect that we did then.
This might explain the more efficient use of food/fuel in terms of waste. And note that delfuego has more experience with pemmican than anyone else AFAIK, including the observation of his wife and children.
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To my knowledge, wild carnivores don't eat pemmican, and Delfuego is not a wild carnivore.
Pemmican, being cooked meat, is less digestible than raw meats, which is another reason to disbelieve his absurd claims. Plus, one can put more trust in wild carnivores and their daily habits than some foolish ZCer who likes to exaggerate, without genuine evidence provided.
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Pemmican, being cooked meat,
The meat in pemmican is raw.
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Pemmican, being cooked meat, is less digestible than raw meats, which is another reason to disbelieve his absurd claims.
Delfuego, like a number of us on this site who dabble in Pemmican, dries his meat at low enough temperatures to keep it "alive" (although I'm curious how much of the good stuff is still kicking when you dry the meat out as much as you do for pemmican). The fat is obviously a different story though.
I personally find pemmican more digestible and energizing than raw meat & fat. I don't indulge too frequently though because I need to drink so much water it just ends up being a hassle.
This brings me to the point I was going to make on the original post. I don't think Delfuego gets enough water. I've read a couple posts of his where he mentions drinking water with his once a day pemmican meal and not bothering the rest of the day. Maybe he's processing it more efficiently after 5 years but his water intake seems very low IMO.
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He wrote that he drinks a gallon of water after his meal. Probably exaggeration, but a lot of water anyway.
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He wrote that he drinks a gallon of water after his meal. Probably exaggeration, but a lot of water anyway.
Oh, ok. I thought I read less than that. That should definitely be plenty of water to deal with the water-removed pemmican as well as the rigors of the day.
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Wow. I scoffed at this at first too. But Charles is a no-nonsense sort of guy and when he confirmed a similar experience that made me do a double-take. Then this explanation added some additional credibility because it makes some sense:
Yesterday, I quoted a Wrangham interview where he talks about pulverization increasing the digestibility of food. So, I told delfuego that that might just be the secret essence to pemmican's goodness.
Now I have the book in front of me. He states that denaturation (the unfolding) of protein molecules enhances their exposure to our digestive enzymes and improves their absorption into our body. On page 65 he lists four factors that promote denaturation: heat, acidity, salt, and drying.
So, delfuego, who has, of late, been insisting that the dryness of pemmican was essential to its goodness was right again.
I'll bet the bad effects of salt and heat offset the digestibility benefits of denaturation (I find raw meats to be easier to digest than cooked for example), but I can't rule out overall digestibility benefits from shredding up the meat and drying it, as I have experienced these benefits myself, though to a lesser extent than Del Fuego.
Perhaps Tyler will think that must be dismissed out of hand because it comes from Wrangham, but I have learned very useful stuff from people I disagree with on most other things (and I do disagree with Wrangham on his hypothesis that big brains come from eating cooked starches). I've found it does not pay to immediately dismiss anything and everything that comes from a source you mostly disagree with.
I'm still flumoxed by this and skeptical of it, but I learned long ago to never underestimate what a carnivorous or RPD diet can do (after all, DelFuego was one of the people who indirectly led me to this forum and RPD) and I try "to seek first to understand, then to be understood" (not always successfully, unfortunately). If DelFuego is heating his jerky and fat at fairly low temps like I do (and I seem to remember him saying that he does) then his diet is not that far off from a RPD. My own stool volume has decreased dramatically since I started eating mostly ground raw beef, which is very easy to chew and digest. The shredding/pulverizing of the jerky for pemmican may have a similar effect and may explain why Del Fuego has very little stool, whereas a wolf (which does not process its meat before eating it) has a significant amount. Even if Del Fuego is telling the truth and not exaggerating much, it's not necessarily a good thing, because wild animals do not shred or pulverize their meat, and even Native Americans did not eat only pemmican or ground meats, but it certainly is fascinating.
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first, pemican is not cooked meat. It is cooked fat. I think you know that, and it's a typo on your part, for you have written about the heated fats before. Next, I have for the last two weeks, heated my fat after putting it through a food processor. The tempurature of the fat never goes above 100-105. A rich golden yellow liquid, entirely delicious, separates from the fat tissues. I skim off that with a spoon and eat. The remaining fat/tissue not unlike a creamy hot cereal in texture, I eat with a spoon also warm, and it is easy to swallow the liquid out of the mixture and not swallow the tissue parts. I end up with a tablespoon or so of fibrous material. I can tell you that my stool amount has shrunk dramatically, just from doing this. It's not hard for me to imagine that if I powered my meat and simply had liquid fat as described above, that my stool amounts would even decrease another substantial amount. Or in other words, as Delfuego writes or suggests, that his digestion of the ingested material is so efficient that not much remains. My raw dogs eating whole lamb as wolves would in the wild pass large stools that soon turn white in the fields from eating the bones along with meat of the whole lamb. They also throw down their throats materials like tendons etc, that are far from being completely digestible.
Before we dismiss Delfuego as crazy or whatever else he has been described as, we might like to actually try ourselves what he does. After just watching Aujonas on the DRs program, like those doctors who have no real experience of eating meat raw, and then go on to make their highly prejudiced remarks, we too maybe should have some direct experience before sounding so sure.
Remember, in carb eaters, at least one half of the stool mass is from the bacteria that feed on the carbs. A zc eater doesn't have that bacterial mass exiting or needing to exit. I say needing to exit, for the acidic content of bacterial wastes can build to such a point that it can irritate the colon. It is also one of the main factors contributing to peristalsis in carb eaters. The acid level signals the colon to contract. Also we have very limited ability to digest vegetable fiber, also contributing to mass or volume of stools.
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First off, I was perfectly well aware that pemmican was raw meat and cooked fat, I merely mentioend "cooked meat" in a general sense because I wanted to make a point. I just wish people wouldn't refer to the pemmican they eat as being raw when the fat is cooked, it's seriously misleading.
As for Wrangham and other comments, I did not merely randomly dismiss DelFuego and Wrangham . I have previously written whole essays debunking every one of Wrangham's moronic claims point by point, providing scientific evidence re dates/digestion of raw food etc.. As far as DelFuego is concerned, there is already sufficient scientific evidence to show that cooked meat is more difficult to digest than raw meat, for me to not take such a claim seriously. The claim re wild animals is very dodgy as I've seen stools of wild animals and they don't just consist of non-digestible matter.
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As far as DelFuego is concerned, there is already sufficient scientific evidence to show that cooked meat is more difficult to digest than raw meat, for me to not take such a claim seriously.
? delfuego eats no cooked meat.
And the better/more thorough digestion of powdered dried raw meat is consistent with the relatively flat belly/short gut of the carnivore.
What a pity that we have so few personal reports of the symptoms of eating raw grass-finished fat compared to rendered.
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Pemmican, being cooked meat, is less digestible than raw meats, which is another reason to disbelieve his absurd claims. Plus, one can put more trust in wild carnivores and their daily habits than some foolish ZCer who likes to exaggerate, without genuine evidence provided.
Tyler, Have you ever eaten pemmican made from raw meat and lowtemp melted fat ?
I guess no!!
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This is one of those things that would be extremely easy to test. There are a few all pemmican folks out there to ask, and if anyone here was genuinely interested you could eat it for a month and see what the trend was. I might do this at some point, just to see what the all pemmican people are going on about and attempt to reproduce or falsify their claims. I use pemmican when I'm away for weekends and if made well it's oddly tasty. Well, not tasty exactly. But I always want to eat more despite it having the texture of greasy, flaky sawdust.
Perfect digestion is theoretically possible, and if there's any food that would allow for it, it's pemmican, due to the steps taken in processing it. It's highly unlikely that anyone actually achieves perfect digestion (Delfuego's claims aside, even he admits to passing something), but significant reductions in bowel movement and bowel size don't seem unreasonable.
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First off, I was perfectly well aware that pemmican was raw meat and cooked fat, I merely mentioend "cooked meat" in a general sense because I wanted to make a point. I just wish people wouldn't refer to the pemmican they eat as being raw when the fat is cooked, it's seriously misleading.
I don't think Del Fuego heats his fat to "cooked" temps. Why not ask him about that before making assumptions and insulting him? As I recall, Del Fuego decided to use low temps even though Lex said it wasn't necessary and would mean it couldn't be stored long term.
As far as DelFuego is concerned, there is already sufficient scientific evidence to show that cooked meat is more difficult to digest than raw meat, for me to not take such a claim seriously. The claim re wild animals is very dodgy as I've seen stools of wild animals and they don't just consist of non-digestible matter.
Your comments seem to imply that DelFuego is massively exaggerating or lying. I think it possible he may be exaggerating a bit, but I doubt that he is massively exaggerating or lying. I wouldn't dismiss what he's saying so easily. Besides, as several people have pointed out, he doesn't cook the meat, and I don't believe he cooks the fat either. So please stop saying that he does unless you can provide evidence.
pfw's idea of a test is a good one. As I mentioned, Charles already confirmed DelFuego's experience, but more tests might satisfy any skeptics.
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I'm not sure that Charles confirms it. His comments elsewhere on his bowel movements are not consistent with Delfuego's claim of "near perfect digestion" and "a little liquid" as the total BM.
Danny from Carnivore Health is currently eating all pemmican. I don't know if he has an account here or not, but his experiences thus far might be of interest.
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I said Charles reported a "similar" experience, not the exact same one. Here's what he said, so people can decide for themselves:
"I have something very similar but I don't eat pemmican, just ground beef..... " --Charles
In other words, Charles didn't dismiss or ridicule DelFuego's claim (which he very well might have if he thought it was ridiculous--you only need to see Charles' response to DelFuego's talking about adding cranberries to his pemmican to know that), he took it seriously based on his own "similar" experience. My own stool volume continues to gradually decrease, and I don't know how far it is going to go, so DelFuego's claim doesn't seem completely outlandish to me. Surprising, yes. Am I 100% convinced? No, but I'm not going to dismiss what he said and ridicule it when I haven't tried eating nothing but pemmican for 5 years like he has. Until I can speak from experience, it would be dishonest of me to just dismiss it.
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? delfuego eats no cooked meat.
There seems to be some confusion here. Most pemmican-makers I've talked to have, of necessity, admitted that the fat was rendered at low (COOKING) temperatures, usually 110 degrees fahrenheit(above the 104 degrees limit). And Lex has admitted that to make long-lasting pemmican , you have to increase the heating of the fat to even higher levels.
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Tyler, Have you ever eaten pemmican made from raw meat and lowtemp melted fat ?
I guess no!!
I've eaten raw meat by itself ;and I've eaten heated grassfed suet during a zero-carb trial
(to which I developed a nasty reaction each time I ate the fat). Since suet is often used as the fat for pemmican, that counts.
As for foolish suggestions for me to eat pemmican for a whole
month, I've already eaten plenty of cooked animal fat in the past decades for me to know exactly
how harmful it is for me and I shudder at the thought of having to eat a diet of mostly melted animal fat especially while having to undergo the same horrendous
zero-carb ordeal that I endured in past experiments. This pemmican ordeal is yet another variation and endangering my health is not an option as I'd much rather be able to get up in the mornings without that awful cooked-fat-induced hangover feeling.
Plus, while I haven't been eating only sh*t
or pemmican for 5 full years, I think I can safely state that I don't need such "experience" in order to criticise coprophagia or the consumption of pemmican or similiar dubious practices.
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Your comments seem to imply that DelFuego is massively exaggerating or lying. I think it possible he may be exaggerating a bit, but I doubt that he is massively exaggerating or lying. I wouldn't dismiss what he's saying so easily. Besides, as several people have pointed out, he doesn't cook the meat, and I don't believe he cooks the fat either. So please stop saying that he does unless you can provide evidence..
Well, all past comments I read re DelFuego, stated that he cooked the fat at low temperatures, no mention of raw last I checked. Seems straightforward. As regards the claims re exaggeration, DelFuego has made similiar extreme claims before(like Charles and the Bear for that matter) so I tend to be somewhat sceptical. I don't mind claims re proportionately smaller stools being reported on a ZC diet but claims of perfect digestion(even with genuinely raw animal fat) are just too extreme to be taken seriously.
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I've eaten raw meat by itself ;and I've eaten heated grassfed suet during a zero-carb trial
(to which I developed a nasty reaction each time I ate the fat). Since suet is often used as the fat for pemmican, that counts.
Tallow made at lowtemp is not the same thing as cooked tallow.
I definitely can't tolerate cooked tallow (burps, headach, etc.), while I have no problem with lowtemp tallow (melted).
We should use another word for pemmican made from lowtemp tallow, ("raw pemmican" ?) that can't be kept for long outside the fridge, to distinguish it from traditional pemmican (cooked tallow) that can be kept for years.
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There seems to be some confusion here. Most pemmican-makers I've talked to have, of necessity, admitted that the fat was rendered at low (COOKING) temperatures, usually 110 degrees fahrenheit(above the 104 degrees limit). And Lex has admitted that to make long-lasting pemmican , you have to increase the heating of the fat to even higher levels.
fat /= meat
When pemmican is properly made, the fat is at low enough temp that it does not cook the meat.
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I've eaten raw meat by itself ;and I've eaten heated grassfed suet during a zero-carb trial
(to which I developed a nasty reaction each time I ate the fat). Since suet is often used as the fat for pemmican, that counts.
As for foolish suggestions for me to eat pemmican for a whole
month, I've already eaten plenty of cooked animal fat in the past decades for me to know exactly
how harmful it is for me and I shudder at the thought of having to eat a diet of mostly melted animal fat especially while having to undergo the same horrendous
zero-carb ordeal that I endured in past experiments. This pemmican ordeal is yet another variation and endangering my health is not an option as I'd much rather be able to get up in the mornings without that awful cooked-fat-induced hangover feeling.
Plus, while I haven't been eating only sh*t
or pemmican for 5 full years, I think I can safely state that I don't need such "experience" in order to criticise coprophagia or the consumption of pemmican or similiar dubious practices.
Aha! The plot clears.
I wondered why I so often get what I think of as "low-fat" headaches, but from the above comments, it is what I've suspected - there is something wrong with the fat we've used.
I know that the only fat available to me is from commercial fodder-fed animals, which is why it tasted unpleasant. There is also the recommendation to filter the tallow with a double paper towel, and I know that the solid bits are bad for me. (connective tissue = overcooked protein)
Either way the stuff is effectivley poisoned, and the way around this is to get truly pure or grass-fed fat.
In the U.S.A. this is available from Slanker's, maybe USWellness, and delfuego has found local sources of grassfed fat. So that's why the lucky have no problems/such good results with eating pemmican - it is the original recipe.
For the rest of us, nasty reaction, "burps, headach, etc.", hangover feeling, and thoughts of coprophagia are our lot until we can find pure fat. I haven't found any yet, but the benefits of pemmican diet have been enough to keep me eating it. So far.
So the quest for fat becomes the quest for pure fat.
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Well, all past comments I read re DelFuego, stated that he cooked the fat at low temperatures, no mention of raw last I checked. Seems straightforward. As regards the claims re exaggeration, DelFuego has made similiar extreme claims before(like Charles and the Bear for that matter) so I tend to be somewhat sceptical. I don't mind claims re proportionately smaller stools being reported on a ZC diet but claims of perfect digestion(even with genuinely raw animal fat) are just too extreme to be taken seriously.
I thought you had already agreed that under 80 degrees celsius is not cooked? Please clarify.
I don't mind skepticism, I just don't care for unsubstantiated accusations. If you have evidence, present it. I don't recall DelFuego's exact claims on temps at this time, so I'm open minded. All I'm asking is that we don't ridicule first and check later. What say we reverse that process? Even better, let's forego the ridicule if we can, as I don't find it very constructive. I don't fancy flame wars with other forums. Yes, I know, I've behaved that way myself in the past, ignoring my own initial warning against it, and I regret it and apologize for it. It may get us hits, but in retrospect I realized it's largely a waste of time and distracts us from more constructive pursuits.
I agree with Carnivore that we need different terminology to be more sensitive to Tyler's concerns. "Raw pemmican" and "raw jerky" sounds fine to me, and I've been using "melted suet" instead of "tallow." Are these terms acceptable and more understandable to you, Tyler? Hopefully this should convey that we are not cooking the beef or fat and have no interest whatsoever in long-term preservation.
William, copraphagia is only recommended for plant-heavy diets deficient in B12 and other vital nutrients. ;) Are any of the EatWild Canadian producers (http://www.eatwild.com/products/canada.html) near you?
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William, copraphagia is only recommended for plant-heavy diets deficient in B12 and other vital nutrients. ;) Are any of the EatWild Canadian producers (http://www.eatwild.com/products/canada.html) near you?
I took TD's reference to coprophagia to mean that commercial cattle fodder has had and may yet include DPW, which is dried poultry waste. The stomach turns, but fortunately I have a strong one.
I've been assured by two farmers so far that grassfed and finished oxen never have fat other than kidney because of the short grass-growing season. I think that it is more likely that they just have too many head of cattle for the amount of land, but whatever, they are all doing it.
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For the rest of us, nasty reaction, "burps, headach, etc.", hangover feeling, and thoughts of coprophagia are our lot until we can find pure fat. I haven't found any yet, but the benefits of pemmican diet have been enough to keep me eating it. So far.
So the quest for fat becomes the quest for pure fat.
I'm afraid, William, you've got the wrong end of the stick. The fat I was using in those zero-carb trials(and the heated suet) came from a particularly high quality 100% grassfed/.organic source (which I sadly can't access any more)- simply put, eating absolutely any cooked animal fat, regardless of whether it's grassfed or not, will leave me with a hangover feeling some time later, with worse effects happening if I eat more than a tiny amount.
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High quality raw pemmican (without the wild fruits as in traditional pemmican) might well be almost completely digestible. In particular the below 40°C rendered fat is expected to be quite pure intact fatty acids and so may be 100% resorbed. Nearly absent BM on a pure raw pemmican diet seems therefore not unlikely. I don't know if it's good or bad but it seems logical.
Yet, to come back to the initial question of Razmatazz one may also recall that the colon is probably a major excretory organ. This is or was at least the opinion of Seignalet, Burger and others based on isolated bowel section experiments on dogs.
http://www.tacomanatural.com/articles2.html
So BM may well take place even in the absence of any digestive waste for instance because of detox as suggested by William.
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I thought you had already agreed that under 80 degrees celsius is not cooked? Please clarify.
Most definitely not, indeed I've only recently complained that UK honey could be erroneously labelled raw despite being heated to 80 degrees Celsius for a short while.The most commonly cited maximum temperature cited on a raw food diet is actually 40 degrees Celsius/104 degrees Fahrenheit. There are a few, non-standard claims of foods still being considered raw at as high as 115 degrees Fahrenheit(in a few raw vegan sites), but that's about it, and they're not canon. The 40 degrees Celsius figure is vitally important as the enzymes in raw foods get progressively and quickly destroyed as one heats the food above 40 degrees.
As for the raw pemmican issue(below 40 degrees Celsius), please mention the raw aspect, that's fine. Also casually mentioning, every now and then, the melting temperature you normally use, might be helpful.
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simply put, eating absolutely any cooked animal fat, regardless of whether it's grassfed or not, will leave me with a hangover feeling some time later, with worse effects happening if I eat more than a tiny amount.
Have you tried lipase?
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Have you tried lipase?
I haven't bothered using enzymes as I hardly ever eat cooked animal food - besides, I don't like artificial enzymes and prefer using high-meat as a way to better digest cooked animal fat.
.Also, I don't appear to have problems with enzyme-deficiency(otherwise I would have (smaller)
issues with raw animal fat)
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As for foolish suggestions for me to eat pemmican for a whole
month, I've already eaten plenty of cooked animal fat in the past decades for me to know exactly
how harmful it is for me and I shudder at the thought of having to eat a diet of mostly melted animal fat especially while having to undergo the same horrendous ...
Heh, I would never ask you to undertake an experiment. I merely pointed out for those interested that it would be trivial to settle this question with a simple experiment, thus taking the argument away from anecdote into data.
If you want to critique an idea, you have to test it. If you don't want to test an idea, then you cannot claim certainty about it. Of course, no one can't ever really claim certainty, but I doubt there are many Karl Popper fans here. Suffice it to say that arguing in absolutes without doing any testing is a truly "foolish". You might have some sort of reaction to cooked animal fat, but that does not mean every other human being will. You might not be able to handle zero carb, but that does not mean every other human being will fail as well. And while "perfect digestion" is indeed highly suspect, eating an essentially pre-digested food can reasonably be expected to reduce stool volume considerably, and so perhaps his claim is less exaggerated than you believe. Until the claim is tested, the amount of truth in his statement remains unsettled.
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Extreme claims require extreme proof. So, I would like to see daily photos, frequent medical corroboration etc. before I believe such nonsense as perfect digestion. The burden of proof is not on me but on DF.
And, like I said, my own negative experience with cooked animal fat(heated suet much like what people use for pemmican) is indeed a very good indication that DelFuego is at the very least wildly exaggerating about health-claims re pemmican(or perfect digestion) - or worse. I do not need to ruin my health by eating pemmican for 5 years or 10 years or a lifetime , just eat heated suet in experiments and get the same negative reaction every time, to indicate that it's unhealthy for me.
And I am most certainly not the only one on raw diets(or other diets) suffering ill-health from cooked animal fats. As I already pointed out before re studies, ALEs, toxic byproducts of cooking and present in multiple amounts in cooked animal fat, are deleterious to health. Some people may be less affected by them than others for whatever isolated reason, but it's ludicrous to suggest that cooked animal fat is healthy.
As for the ZC diet remark, I have never claimed that raw ZC diets are always bad for all people. In fact, I have suggested that certainly at least a few or more people do at least fine on raw ZC(I'm still doubtful re the sport-performance issue). Cooked ZC diets are another issue, and I've already gone into the issue of toxins in cooked animal foods endless times.
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Extreme claims require extreme proof. So, I would like to see daily photos, frequent medical corroboration etc. before I believe such nonsense as perfect digestion. The burden of proof is not on me but on DF.
And, like I said, my own negative experience with cooked animal fat(heated suet much like what people use for pemmican) is indeed a very good indication that DelFuego is at the very least wildly exaggerating about health-claims re pemmican(or perfect digestion) - or worse. I do not need to ruin my health by eating pemmican for 5 years or 10 years or a lifetime , just eat heated suet in experiments and get the same negative reaction every time, to indicate that it's unhealthy for me.
And I am most certainly not the only one on raw diets(or other diets) suffering ill-health from cooked animal fats. As I already pointed out before re studies, ALEs, toxic byproducts of cooking and present in multiple amounts in cooked animal fat, are deleterious to health. Some people may be less affected by them than others for whatever isolated reason, but it's ludicrous to suggest that cooked animal fat is healthy.
As for the ZC diet remark, I have never claimed that raw ZC diets are always bad for all people. In fact, I have suggested that certainly at least a few or more people do at least fine on raw ZC(I'm still doubtful re the sport-performance issue). Cooked ZC diets are another issue, and I've already gone into the issue of toxins in cooked animal foods endless times.
As long as you don't have seriously experimented raw pemmican made from raw dried meat and tallow melted below 40°, you can't say anything credible about this food. Period.
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Some people may be less affected by them than others for whatever isolated reason, but it's ludicrous to suggest that cooked animal fat is healthy.
This is your problem.
Just because you have an extreme and immediately negative effect to cooked food does not mean that everyone does. Indeed, the vast majority of people on this earth do not appear to have that reaction. Long term aging effects, cancer and what have you obviously might be problems, but "Healthy" is a very relative term; most people can live perfectly full and happy lives eating cooked food before succumbing to some disease. Your inability to do so does not make it universally intolerable, and there's a vast body of evidence that shows that your experience is very much the minority. Most people tolerate it just fine, even if it does harm to them over the long term.
Which, by the way, is why I would never attempt to run any experiment using you as a subject. Your negative reactions to cooked food are apparently so powerful that you'd be an outlier in all data. If someone with less sensitivity were to eat all pemmican, their reaction would be much more valuable.
I don't know why you are conflating the various potential health effects of cooked fats with the immediate question of digestive efficiency. Toxin loads and whatnot are totally irrelevant if the individual in question isn't as allergic to them as you are, which Delfuego clearly isn't. Again, pemmican is essentially pre-digested; the protein is powdered and dried with the fat being reduced to its constituent fatty acids. If there was a food that could be totally absorbed without significant waste, it would be pemmican. It's also important to note that not even Delfuego is claiming that he never has a bowel movement ever, just that the ones he does have are extremely minimal: "just a little liquid".
With such imprecise language it's impossible to tell exactly what he's claiming, but "just a little liquid" is an eminently possible result given the food being considered and assuming that the person consuming it is not severely allergic to cooked food. Confirming it, or falsifying it, in others would give us more data to go on.
Since it's unlikely that we are going to have a metabolic ward study of the long term effects of pemmican, you will of course accept no pragmatically attainable evidence as proof. That renders this debate rather moot. I will, however, again point out that any interested parties without acute sensitivity to rendered fat would be able to test the claim, and that there are other pemmican eaters out there who might be contacted.
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Tyler: "As for the raw pemmican issue(below 40 degrees Celsius), please mention the raw aspect, that's fine. Also casually mentioning, every now and then, the melting temperature you normally use, might be helpful."
Sorry, I meant under 40 degrees celsius (104 degrees farenheit). My metric knowledge disappeared due to lack of use. BTW, one reason some of the critics here used to block the switch to metric is that the metric measures allegedly don't have anything close to natural equivalents, whereas the English measures supposedly sort of do (for example, a guy with a size 12 shoe can roughly measure parts of a croquet surface by simply walking it toe-to-heal, a yard is about the length of a man's pace, etc.). I'm skeptical of how important that really is. Do you find that causes any problems?
My temps:
raw jerky - 95 degrees farenheit
tallow - mine was higher than I thought (up to 200 degrees)
DelFuego's reported temps on 2-17-2009:
raw jerky - 95 - 105 (if in a rush)
tallow - 170 - 200 (if in a rush)
So it looks like our jerky could generally be classed as raw (with DelFuego occasionally slightly cooking his jerky at 105 if he's in a rush), but not the tallow. Oh well. It's a compromise I'll live with for now for multiple reasons, but not because I think it's healthy to cook the tallow.
pfw: "I doubt there are many Karl Popper fans here."
Ooo! I'm one!
Tyler: "Extreme claims require extreme proof."
Carl Sagan would have agreed with you, and so do I. I don't consider DelFuego's and Charles' claims to be proof, I just prefer not to dismiss or belittle them, even though I do wonder whether they might be exaggerating a bit. Call me crazy if you like, but my approach is to try to start with an open mind on phenomena I'm unfamiliar with if there seems to be the slightest chance of possibly being an ounce of truth in it. My own experience suggests there is that chance.
Tyler: "So, I would like to see daily photos,"
Not sure a photo or even a video would prove anything and I do NOT want to see either! ;) BTW, neither claimed "perfect" digestion, so that's a straw man. You could get away with saying "near-perfect" I would say.
"I've already gone into the issue of toxins in cooked animal foods endless times."
Hey, maybe small amounts of the toxins in cooked animal foods can have medicinal effects just like plant toxins? Could they also create the "healthy detox" reactions that some people say plant toxins create? I've no idea myself, it just occurred to me and I'm just speculating. I like to question all assumptions, no matter how solid they seem to be.
Lex is rather knowledgeable about pemmican, so he could probably add some enlightenment to this subject if he so chooses.
This will probably be fruitless, but I recommend we try not to use heavily critical and absolutist language like "nonsense," "perfect" and "your problem"--at least until we've gotten more information.
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As long as you don't have seriously experimented raw pemmican made from raw dried meat and tallow melted below 40°, you can't say anything credible about this food. Period.
This is false. I've already frequently experimented with raw meat and raw fat on their own without other carby-foods) and have not experienced perfect digestion with either or both, so I know it to be nonsense as a claim. Since the difference between raw meat/fat at room-temperature and raw meat/fat warmed to 40 degrees Celsius is not remotely significant (ie no enzymes destroyed), there is no credibility in claiming that they are different. And, besides the increased lack of digestibility of cooked meats/fat makes the perfect digestion claim even more laughable.
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This is your problem.
Just because you have an extreme and immediately negative effect to cooked food does not mean that everyone does. Indeed, the vast majority of people on this earth do not appear to have that reaction. Long term aging effects, cancer and what have you obviously might be problems, but "Healthy" is a very relative term; most people can live perfectly full and happy lives eating cooked food before succumbing to some disease. Your inability to do so does not make it universally intolerable, and there's a vast body of evidence that shows that your experience is very much the minority. Most people tolerate it just fine, even if it does harm to them over the long term.
The very fact that people suffer from cooked meats in the long-term is in itself a confirmation that cooked food is unhealthy. And I would question whether people on cooked diets are healthy - virtually everyone I know who's past a certain age is in extremly poor ill-health. Sure, they have better access to medical facilities, can take endless artificial vitamins and minerals and other (eg:- hormone-) pills so they are better off than their parents and grandparents, but that, of course, doesn't make them "healthy" by any means.
I don't know why you are conflating the various potential health effects of cooked fats with the immediate question of digestive efficiency. Toxin loads and whatnot are totally irrelevant if the individual in question isn't as allergic to them as you are, which Delfuego clearly isn't. Again, pemmican is essentially pre-digested; the protein is powdered and dried with the fat being reduced to its constituent fatty acids. If there was a food that could be totally absorbed without significant waste, it would be pemmican. It's also important to note that not even Delfuego is claiming that he never has a bowel movement ever, just that the ones he does have are extremely minimal: "just a little liquid".
I do not have an "allergy" to cooked foods, you're making a wholly false assumption . Plus, I developed these digestive symptoms re cooked animal foods over a decades-long consumption of cooked meats, it wasn't a lifelong thing and it came about due to prolonged, indirect harm done to my digestive system and other areas by cooked diets.
As for DelFuego and the liquid issue, as long as people refrain from mentioning perfect digestion, that's fine by me. I view claims of perfect digestion as obviously fraudulent, but wild exaggeration is not an issue for me.
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Tyler: "As for the raw pemmican issue(below 40 degrees Celsius), please mention the raw aspect, that's fine. Also casually mentioning, every now and then, the melting temperature you normally use, might be helpful."
Sorry, I meant under 40 degrees celsius (104 degrees farenheit). My metric knowledge disappeared due to lack of use. BTW, one reason some of the critics here used to block the switch to metric is that the metric measures allegedly don't have anything close to natural equivalents, whereas the English measures supposedly sort of do (for example, a guy with a size 12 shoe can roughly measure parts of a croquet surface by simply walking it toe-to-heal, a yard is about the length of a man's pace, etc.). I'm skeptical of how important that really is. Do you find that causes any problems?
You Americans(and Canadians?) are the only sane Anglo-saxon nations left who use the old system of measurement. We've had awful scenes with the EU making harsh laws banning the use of such old measurements, to the point where traders were actively prosecuted for a time before public outrage softened things a bit. The fact is that meauring in feet/ounces/pounds etc.(and even miles) is far more correct and easy to estimate. I find the notion of metres/centimetres useless for estimating height and so on.
My temps:
raw jerky - 95 degrees farenheit
tallow - mine was higher than I thought (up to 200 degrees)
DelFuego's reported temps on 2-17-2009:
raw jerky - 95 - 105 (if in a rush)
tallow - 170 - 200 (if in a rush)
So it looks like our jerky could generally be classed as raw (with DelFuego occasionally slightly cooking his jerky at 105 if he's in a rush), but not the tallow. Oh well. It's a compromise I'll live with for now for multiple reasons, but not because I think it's healthy to cook the tallow.
So, jerky is often eaten raw, but pemmican never is. I take it no one ever warms suet for making pemmican ,to below 40 degrees Celsius? I was concerned re claims that pemmican was raw because Lex had pointed out that ideally, the fat in pemmican must be heated to high temperatures for ease of use etc.
pfw: "I doubt there are many Karl Popper fans here."
Ooo! I'm one!
I wasn't too familiar with him, but it turns out he does have rather a large crticism section on his wikipedia entry(eg:-
"By applying Popper's account of scientific method, John Gray's Straw Dogs states that this would have killed the theories of Darwin and Einstein at birth. When they were first advanced, each of them was at odds with some available evidence; only later did evidence become available that gave them crucial support"
Tyler: "So, I would like to see daily photos,"
Not sure a photo or even a video would prove anything and I do NOT want to see either! ;) BTW, neither claimed "perfect" digestion, so that's a straw man. You could get away with saying "near-perfect" I would say.
Near-perfect would also be misleading,as it almost implies perfection.Perhaps excellent/very good digestion would be preferable as a term.
"I've already gone into the issue of toxins in cooked animal foods endless times."
Hey, maybe small amounts of the toxins in cooked animal foods can have medicinal effects just like plant toxins? Could they also create the "healthy detox" reactions that some people say plant toxins create? I've no idea myself, it just occurred to me and I'm just speculating. I like to question all assumptions, no matter how solid they seem to be.
The difference is that the previous reference in another topic to toxins in plants involved raw plants(and, at the very worst, assumption of only very light cooking as the antioxidants/phytonutrients etc. that you label plant toxins, are very easily destroyed by heat. I've not heard of people claiming detox reactions from plant foods(except from the raw vegan crowd). That is, it's actually commonly the case that people are fed on raw and lightly-cooked plant foods as part of detox diets in health-spas, but I suspect that the main benefit of such artificial diets is not the plant foods as such, simply that the person becomes healthier for a time, due to not eating cooked animal food during their stay at the spa, and their body uses that time to detox those cooked-animal-food-poisons out.
The same applies to animal foods as the phytonutrients in raw plants. The healthy nutrients are found in raw animal foods and then are progressively destroyed/reduced/altered in quantity as cooking is increased.
Also, the phytonutrients in plants seem of a more complex nature. The only animal food that comes close to having hormonal and other effects would be dairy(or "high-meat"), and these are not good, either, in cooked form.
This will probably be fruitless, but I recommend we try not to use heavily critical and absolutist language like "nonsense," "perfect" and "your problem"--at least until we've gotten more information.
Well, this is the hot topics forum and we should have greater scope. I would dread having all swearing (eg:- occasional use of the extreme word "b*ll*cks)etc. banned as it lessens the fun.
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I figured it would be failed effort, but thought I'd at least give it a shot. For what it's worth, I vote for a bit of a toning down and chilling out. People are free to do what they wish, of course. It's just a friendly request. Nothing more.
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Here's some evidence I came across that lends credence to the claims of DelFuego and Charles re: limited, watery feces after years of a carnivorous diet (DelFuego in particular is basically eating like a wolf, albeit without the organs, bones, or hide):
Food passage rate and digestibility
p. 125 "If wolves were to be judged as domestic dogs are, they would probably rank as dysfunctional feeders. The irregular, very large meals ingested by wolves commonly results in very liquid, diarrhea-like feces. The rapid passage of chyme through the digestive system is associated with osmotic imbalance, stimulation of secretion and gut motility, and inhibition of nitrogen and water absorption, all of which lead to increased water content in feces (Blaza 1982)."
p. 126 "The wolf's diet, except for hair and bone, is highly digestible--generally in excess of 90%, based on experiments with dogs (Meyer et al. 1980). Fat is the most thoroughly digested component of the diet (97%), followed by protein (93%). As food intake increases, digestibility drops by a few percentage points. ... The effect of doubling the intake of food ... was a near tripling of feces production."
--Wolves: Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation, by L. David Mech and Luigi Boitani (2003)
Quite a coincidence, eh?
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AFAIK delfuego has been eating strictly pemmican for the longest, so should show results that indicate what is in store for the rest of us.
Did he post how long it was before that happened?
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Yet, my own personal observation is that going raw ZC made my stools much harder and compact not more softer/liquid. Also, there's a difference between wolves' digestive systems, I believe human's digestive systems are longer?
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Yet, my own personal observation is that going raw ZC made my stools much harder and compact not more softer/liquid. Also, there's a difference between wolves' digestive systems, I believe human's digestive systems are longer?
Me too, from the beginning of diet, but delfuego is different in that he started pemmican only, and for longer - >4 years.
Human digestive systems are longer, but it's been said that they shrink on a carb-free diet, certainly feels like that. Compare the belly of a grain-fed domestic dog with the concave belly of the wild wolf. It looks like less gut is needed to digest a carnivorous diet.
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Me too, from the beginning of diet, but delfuego is different in that he started pemmican only, and for longer - >4 years.
Human digestive systems are longer, but it's been said that they shrink on a carb-free diet, certainly feels like that. Compare the belly of a grain-fed domestic dog with the concave belly of the wild wolf. It looks like less gut is needed to digest a carnivorous diet.
Yes, I think Lex said that the early tendency to constipation when the fecal volume reduces by 2/3 resolved for him after 3 months or so and that his colon shrunk and became healthier-looking upon examination by a GI specialist.
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Yet, my own personal observation is that going raw ZC made my stools much harder and compact not more softer/liquid. Also, there's a difference between wolves' digestive systems, I believe human's digestive systems are longer?
humans is apparently shorter than a dogs not sure about a wolves. Colon is an inactive part of digestion in both canine and human though, and since that's where the difference in length is the digestion system is virtually identical.
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I hope you're stools are better, and you too.
I was looking at another thread, and it made me think of the ileocecal problem I had between eleven and four years ago. Then ...
I Googled Ileocecal Valve Diet, and in the first couple of links that came up, I got this:
Most ICV is pure protein deficiency. For instance, one protein, gastrin is produced in the stomach during digestion and is carried along in the chyme through the small intestine this hormone helps the valve to relax open when it is time for the contents of the small intestine to pass through into the colon. If a protein deficient system is not producing gastrin correctly, then the ICV valve will not respond properly. This is just one small example of how protein deficiency can effect an ICV. Remember, 9 out of ten people do not properly digest their dietary protein, this means the protein is putrefying in their gut and producing tremendous amounts of the chemical indican, which can affect an ICV causing it to malfunction.
This chemical can be measured in the Urinary Indican Test. Also, a protein deficient gut is
usually struggling with yeast overgrowth and inflammation caused by gluten, these two things alone can cause a swollen, toxic ICV that has that has become thick and prone to stick open or closed. This is where the Two Edged Sword Diet is very helpful. Removing yeast and gluten from the diet helps to calm an irritated ICV.
And this:
Eat dense protein 3x a day. A portion should be at least the size of the palm of your hand.
This includes:
Eggs
Beef
Chicken
Turkey
Lamb
Pork
Fish
(All meat and fish needs to be cooked, egg yolks preferably runny)
2. VEGETABLES
You can eat all of the FRESH vegetables that you want except potatoes and beans.
(potatoes contain the same amount of sugar as a can of Coke. Beans contain phytates which block digestion of certain vitamins and minerals.)
3. FRUIT
After 3 months following the diet, you may eat a limited amount of FRESH fruit daily.
You can mix your fruits together but don’t mix fruit with other foods.
Fruit must be eaten in between meals at least one hour away from meals.
Eat your fruit but don’t drink your fruit or dry your fruit.
4. GOOD FATS
Unlimited Butter, Olive Oil
No Margarine, No Vegetable Oil, No Soybean Oil, No Canola Oil, No Safflower Oil, No Crisco, No Pam, No Trans Fatty acids, No Partially Hydrogenated oils .
(most prepackaged foods and salad dressings contain oils that can cause health problems.)
5. WATER
Drink 1 liter of DISTILLED WATER per 50 lbs. of body weight, daily.
(100lbs = 2 liters, 150lbs = 3 liters of water, etc.)
6. SNACK
Eat every 2 hours to prevent your body from going into starvation mode.
(Eating every 2 hours takes stress of the adrenal glands, pancreas and many important functions off the body. In order to regain your health you want to take as much stress off of your body as possible.)
7. AVOID
Food Sensitivities/Allergies:
Wheat, Corn, Soy & Dairy (eggs and butter are OK)
NO:
Rice, Potatoes, Cereal, Bread, Flour, Pasta, Cakes, Brownies, Pies, Cookies
Ice cream, Candy, Soda, Artificial or Natural Sweeteners* & Alcohol.
(In general, alcohol is ok approx. twice a week, but not 2 days in a row. Some people are more sensitive to one type of alcohol than another. In general the better the quality of the alcohol, the better your body will be able to handle it.)
*(Honey is ok as an occasional sweetener. Rotate a few different brands/sources so that you do not become sensitive to it.)
8. IN GENERAL
Try to eat organic FRESH foods. Avoid food preservatives, monosodium glutamate (MSG) or hydrolyzed proteins. If it says “LOW FAT or FAT FREE” don’t eat it.
ileocecal valve health
The following are additional guidelines for all patients, but patients with many of the
symptoms at the bottom of the sheet need to be especially vigilant.
Eliminate from your diet:
All roughage foods,
Popcorn, Potato chips, Corn chips, Nuts, Seeds, Whole grains
I had little idea the ICV problem I was treated for between seven and ten years ago might be due to eating vegan foods and not eating animal foods.
Come to think of it, a number of times I ate wheat, and a good portion of those time only one bite stopped me from pooping for two weeks. I did go to the medical doctor for symptoms like these as far back as seventeen years ago, and medical tests have been run on me for the symptoms, but the medical industry always said it was not unhealthy after all was said and mostly intrusive tests done.