Author Topic: bowel movements  (Read 31014 times)

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Offline razmatazz

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bowel movements
« on: August 17, 2009, 12:46:57 am »
sorry for the gross topic, but i have a question.
I'm mostly raw paleo (in addition to meat and fat i sometimes eat fermented fruit or veg but very rarely) therefore consume almost zero fiber.
In recent weeks my BMs have normalized, in that I'm very regular and stools are mainly a type 5 on the bristol stool charthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Stool_Scale

However sometimes i notice  a sticky mucus-like substance on the toilet paper, sometimes with orangey bits.. ???
 Uusually you hear of the body producing mucus to protect from the harsh effects of fiber...but as i consume practically none this can;'t be the cause..
I emailed Konstantin Monastyrsky, author of Fiber Menace and he said "Assuming, you are indeed seeing a mucus, It may be a sign of inflammatory bowel disease (colitis), or a symptom of a necrotizing tumor."

first of all...after googling colitis i read a main sympton is diarrhoea (sp?) which i most certainly do not have...and second of all...necrotizing tumor??!?!? aaaah, i'm only 18!  :o :'(
Apart from that i feel absolutely fine...no change in anything else whatsoever...please someone help me understand this!

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: bowel movements
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2009, 07:51:40 am »
first of all...after googling colitis i read a main sympton is diarrhoea (sp?) which i most certainly do not have...and second of all...necrotizing tumor??!?!? aaaah, i'm only 18!  :o :'(
Apart from that i feel absolutely fine...no change in anything else whatsoever...please someone help me understand this!

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William

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Re: bowel movements
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2009, 07:31:14 pm »
My guess is that it is a detox reaction.

As for "normalized" BMs, that depends on so many things that it's mostly worthless. For instance normal for a person easily old enough to be your great grandfather is every three to five days except when I eat peaches, then it's every morning, and the turds (before peach season) normally remind me of the Norwegian euphemism "laying a cable", while last year they were like those of Eskimos.

Offline Nicola

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Re: bowel movements
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2009, 02:59:45 pm »
This may give others a new/different/questionable picture on the subject; the quote is from the zerocarb forum and may be interesting for members of this forum?

I rarely if ever have bowel movements anymore. When I do "go" there is no matter or substance, only a slight discharge of fluid. Has eating pemmican for 5 years allowed my system to become so adept at assimilating and digesting that it no longer produces waste? What does this mean for my colon? Is it really necessary for me to have a colon at all? If evolution has required a shortening of the digestive system then wouldn't this be supreme evolution? If you don't use it you lose it. Perhaps I'm in the process of ridding myself of the bodies most notorious "bad boy". I guess I'll have to see where this is going!

Delfuego


http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=597&page=88

Nicola

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: bowel movements
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2009, 04:59:26 pm »
This DelFuego guy certainly enjoys making outrageously unlikely claims!
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Re: bowel movements
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2009, 05:18:15 pm »
This may give others a new/different/questionable picture on the subject; the quote is from the zerocarb forum and may be interesting for members of this forum?

http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=597&page=88

Nicola

    Their admin Charles says his experience is similar in a post two down from DelFuego's:

http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=597&pid=121084#pid121084

    As incredible as it sounds to me, I am getting tired of carbs.  I'm getting closer to deciding to try this.  Maybe I should do it for the Winter.  I imagine that's what I'd have to do if I lived here outdoors 24/7 all year round.  I imagine it would be handy for animals living outdoors not to go #2 on the freezing ice, and then fairly directly fertilize the ground in Spring.  The green Spring grass can cover it too, where less precipitation in the dry of Winter may not, just thinking esthetics.  Pardon my poo talk.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: bowel movements
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2009, 05:36:41 pm »
The fact that wild carnivores have solid, sizeable  stools(and able to be tracked) should indicate, rather strongly, that DelFuego et al are telling porkies! It's one thing to claim that a ZC diet leads to smaller, less frequent stools, but this liquid hypothesis is clearly bogus.
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Re: bowel movements
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2009, 12:18:27 am »
The fact that wild carnivores have solid, sizeable  stools(and able to be tracked) should indicate, rather strongly, that DelFuego et al are telling porkies! It's one thing to claim that a ZC diet leads to smaller, less frequent stools, but this liquid hypothesis is clearly bogus.

To my knowledge, wild carnivores don't eat pemmican, and Delfuego is not a wild carnivore.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2009, 01:19:59 am by carnivore »

William

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Re: bowel movements
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2009, 01:31:06 am »
To my knowledge, wild carnivores don't eat pemmican, and Delfuego is not a wild carnivore.

I heartily agree. Please note that the big difference between us and wild carnivores including our supposed simian ancestors is the high fat consumption of pemmican-eaters (pemmicaneers?  :) ) and the fact that our meat is powdered.
I postulate that paleoman ate that fat and fatty parts, and left the lean meat for the dogs, wolves, foxes and other scavengers including L. Cordain. That's assuming we did not eat pemmican, but I'm coming to suspect that we did then.

This might explain the more efficient use of food/fuel in terms of waste. And note that delfuego has more experience with pemmican than anyone else AFAIK, including the observation of his wife and children.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2009, 01:42:26 am by William »

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: bowel movements
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2009, 05:38:40 am »
To my knowledge, wild carnivores don't eat pemmican, and Delfuego is not a wild carnivore.
Pemmican, being cooked meat, is less digestible than raw meats, which is another reason to disbelieve his absurd claims. Plus, one can put more trust in wild carnivores and their daily habits than some foolish ZCer who likes to exaggerate, without genuine evidence provided.
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William

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Re: bowel movements
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2009, 07:20:03 am »
Pemmican, being cooked meat,

The meat in pemmican is raw.

Offline djr_81

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Re: bowel movements
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2009, 07:39:00 am »
Pemmican, being cooked meat, is less digestible than raw meats, which is another reason to disbelieve his absurd claims.

Delfuego, like a number of us on this site who dabble in Pemmican, dries his meat at low enough temperatures to keep it "alive" (although I'm curious how much of the good stuff is still kicking when you dry the meat out as much as you do for pemmican). The fat is obviously a different story though.
I personally find pemmican more digestible and energizing than raw meat & fat. I don't indulge too frequently though because I need to drink so much water it just ends up being a hassle.
This brings me to the point I was going to make on the original post. I don't think Delfuego gets enough water. I've read a couple posts of his where he mentions drinking water with his once a day pemmican meal and not bothering the rest of the day. Maybe he's processing it more efficiently after 5 years but his water intake seems very low IMO.
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William

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Re: bowel movements
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2009, 07:45:30 am »
He wrote that he drinks a gallon of water after his meal. Probably exaggeration, but a lot of water anyway.

Offline djr_81

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Re: bowel movements
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2009, 07:51:18 am »
He wrote that he drinks a gallon of water after his meal. Probably exaggeration, but a lot of water anyway.
Oh, ok. I thought I read less than that. That should definitely be plenty of water to deal with the water-removed pemmican as well as the rigors of the day.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: bowel movements
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2009, 11:18:06 am »
Wow. I scoffed at this at first too. But Charles is a no-nonsense sort of guy and when he confirmed a similar experience that made me do a double-take. Then this explanation added some additional credibility because it makes some sense:
Quote
Yesterday, I quoted a Wrangham interview where he talks about pulverization increasing the digestibility of food. So, I told delfuego that that might just be the secret essence to pemmican's goodness.

Now I have the book in front of me. He states that denaturation (the unfolding) of protein molecules enhances their exposure to our digestive enzymes and improves their absorption into our body. On page 65 he lists four factors that promote denaturation: heat, acidity, salt, and drying.

So, delfuego, who has, of late, been insisting that the dryness of pemmican was essential to its goodness was right again.
I'll bet the bad effects of salt and heat offset the digestibility benefits of denaturation (I find raw meats to be easier to digest than cooked for example), but I can't rule out overall digestibility benefits from shredding up the meat and drying it, as I have experienced these benefits myself, though to a lesser extent than Del Fuego.

Perhaps Tyler will think that must be dismissed out of hand because it comes from Wrangham, but I have learned very useful stuff from people I disagree with on most other things (and I do disagree with Wrangham on his hypothesis that big brains come from eating cooked starches). I've found it does not pay to immediately dismiss anything and everything that comes from a source you mostly disagree with.

I'm still flumoxed by this and skeptical of it, but I learned long ago to never underestimate what a carnivorous or RPD diet can do (after all, DelFuego was one of the people who indirectly led me to this forum and RPD) and I try "to seek first to understand, then to be understood" (not always successfully, unfortunately). If DelFuego is heating his jerky and fat at fairly low temps like I do (and I seem to remember him saying that he does) then his diet is not that far off from a RPD. My own stool volume has decreased dramatically since I started eating mostly ground raw beef, which is very easy to chew and digest. The shredding/pulverizing of the jerky for pemmican may have a similar effect and may explain why Del Fuego has very little stool, whereas a wolf (which does not process its meat before eating it) has a significant amount. Even if Del Fuego is telling the truth and not exaggerating much, it's not necessarily a good thing, because wild animals do not shred or pulverize their meat, and even Native Americans did not eat only pemmican or ground meats, but it certainly is fascinating.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2009, 11:48:45 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
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Offline van

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Re: bowel movements
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2009, 12:49:38 pm »
first, pemican is not cooked meat.  It is cooked fat.  I think  you know that, and it's a typo on your part, for you have written about the heated fats before.  Next,  I have for the last two weeks, heated my fat after putting it through a food processor.  The tempurature of the fat never goes above 100-105.  A rich golden yellow liquid, entirely delicious, separates from the fat tissues.  I skim off that with a spoon and eat.  The remaining fat/tissue not unlike a creamy hot cereal in texture, I eat with a spoon also warm, and it is easy to swallow the liquid out of the mixture and not swallow the tissue parts.    I end up with a tablespoon or so of fibrous material.  I can tell you that my stool amount has shrunk dramatically, just from doing this.  It's not hard for me to imagine that if I powered my meat  and simply had liquid fat as described above, that my stool amounts would even decrease another substantial amount.   Or in other words, as Delfuego writes or suggests, that his digestion of the ingested material is so efficient that not much remains.    My raw dogs eating whole lamb as wolves would in the wild pass large stools that soon turn white in the fields from eating the bones along with meat of the whole lamb.  They also throw down their throats materials like tendons etc, that are far from being completely digestible.     

  Before we dismiss Delfuego as crazy or whatever else he has been described as,  we might like to actually try ourselves what he does.  After just watching Aujonas on the DRs program,  like those doctors who have no real experience of eating meat raw, and then go on to make their highly prejudiced remarks,  we too maybe should have some direct experience before sounding so sure.   
   Remember, in carb eaters,  at least one half of the stool mass is from the bacteria that feed on the carbs.  A zc eater doesn't have that bacterial mass exiting or needing to exit.  I say needing to exit, for the acidic content of bacterial wastes can build to such a point that it can irritate the colon.  It is also one of the main factors contributing to peristalsis in carb eaters.  The acid level signals the colon to contract.  Also we have very limited ability to digest vegetable fiber, also contributing to mass or volume of stools. 

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: bowel movements
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2009, 06:46:25 pm »
First off, I was perfectly well aware that pemmican was raw meat and cooked fat, I merely mentioend "cooked meat" in a general sense because I wanted to make a point. I just wish people wouldn't refer to the pemmican they eat as being raw when the fat is cooked, it's seriously misleading.

As for Wrangham and other comments, I did not merely randomly dismiss DelFuego and Wrangham . I have previously written whole essays debunking every one of Wrangham's moronic claims point by point, providing scientific evidence re dates/digestion of raw food etc.. As  far as DelFuego is concerned, there is already sufficient scientific  evidence to show that cooked meat is more difficult to digest than raw meat, for me to not take such a claim seriously. The claim re wild animals is very dodgy as I've seen stools of wild animals and they don't just consist of non-digestible matter.
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William

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Re: bowel movements
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2009, 08:53:34 pm »
As  far as DelFuego is concerned, there is already sufficient scientific  evidence to show that cooked meat is more difficult to digest than raw meat, for me to not take such a claim seriously.

? delfuego eats no cooked meat.

And the better/more thorough digestion of powdered dried  raw meat is consistent with the relatively flat belly/short gut of the carnivore.

What a pity that we have so few personal reports of the symptoms of eating raw grass-finished fat compared to rendered.

carnivore

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Re: bowel movements
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2009, 09:00:51 pm »
Pemmican, being cooked meat, is less digestible than raw meats, which is another reason to disbelieve his absurd claims. Plus, one can put more trust in wild carnivores and their daily habits than some foolish ZCer who likes to exaggerate, without genuine evidence provided.

Tyler, Have you ever eaten pemmican made from raw meat and lowtemp melted fat ?
I guess no!!

Offline pfw

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Re: bowel movements
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2009, 10:55:11 pm »
This is one of those things that would be extremely easy to test. There are a few all pemmican folks out there to ask, and if anyone here was genuinely interested you could eat it for a month and see what the trend was. I might do this at some point, just to see what the all pemmican people are going on about and attempt to reproduce or falsify their claims. I use pemmican when I'm away for weekends and if made well it's oddly tasty. Well, not tasty exactly. But I always want to eat more despite it having the texture of greasy, flaky sawdust.

Perfect digestion is theoretically possible, and if there's any food that would allow for it, it's pemmican, due to the steps taken in processing it. It's highly unlikely that anyone actually achieves perfect digestion (Delfuego's claims aside, even he admits to passing something), but significant reductions in bowel movement and bowel size don't seem unreasonable.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: bowel movements
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2009, 02:17:04 am »
First off, I was perfectly well aware that pemmican was raw meat and cooked fat, I merely mentioend "cooked meat" in a general sense because I wanted to make a point. I just wish people wouldn't refer to the pemmican they eat as being raw when the fat is cooked, it's seriously misleading.
I don't think Del Fuego heats his fat to "cooked" temps. Why not ask him about that before making assumptions and insulting him? As I recall, Del Fuego decided to use low temps even though Lex said it wasn't necessary and would mean it couldn't be stored long term.

Quote
As  far as DelFuego is concerned, there is already sufficient scientific  evidence to show that cooked meat is more difficult to digest than raw meat, for me to not take such a claim seriously. The claim re wild animals is very dodgy as I've seen stools of wild animals and they don't just consist of non-digestible matter.
Your comments seem to imply that DelFuego is massively exaggerating or lying. I think it possible he may be exaggerating a bit, but I doubt that he is massively exaggerating or lying. I wouldn't dismiss what he's saying so easily. Besides, as several people have pointed out, he doesn't cook the meat, and I don't believe he cooks the fat either. So please stop saying that he does unless you can provide evidence.

pfw's idea of a test is a good one. As I mentioned, Charles already confirmed DelFuego's experience, but more tests might satisfy any skeptics.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline pfw

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Re: bowel movements
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2009, 02:57:12 am »
I'm not sure that Charles confirms it. His comments elsewhere on his bowel movements are not consistent with Delfuego's claim of "near perfect digestion" and "a little liquid" as the total BM.

Danny from Carnivore Health is currently eating all pemmican. I don't know if he has an account here or not, but his experiences thus far might be of interest.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: bowel movements
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2009, 06:11:04 am »
I said Charles reported a "similar" experience, not the exact same one. Here's what he said, so people can decide for themselves:

"I have something very similar but I don't eat pemmican, just ground beef..... " --Charles

In other words, Charles didn't dismiss or ridicule DelFuego's claim (which he very well might have if he thought it was ridiculous--you only need to see Charles' response to DelFuego's talking about adding cranberries to his pemmican to know that), he took it seriously based on his own "similar" experience. My own stool volume continues to gradually decrease, and I don't know how far it is going to go, so DelFuego's claim doesn't seem completely outlandish to me. Surprising, yes. Am I 100% convinced? No, but I'm not going to dismiss what he said and ridicule it when I haven't tried eating nothing but pemmican for 5 years like he has. Until I can speak from experience, it would be dishonest of me to just dismiss it.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: bowel movements
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2009, 05:26:23 pm »
? delfuego eats no cooked meat.

There seems to be some confusion here. Most  pemmican-makers I've talked to have, of necessity, admitted that the fat was rendered at low (COOKING) temperatures, usually 110 degrees fahrenheit(above the 104 degrees limit). And Lex has admitted that to make  long-lasting pemmican , you have to increase the heating of the fat to even higher levels.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 05:35:24 pm by TylerDurden »
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: bowel movements
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2009, 05:31:24 pm »
Tyler, Have you ever eaten pemmican made from raw meat and lowtemp melted fat ?
I guess no!!

I've eaten raw meat by itself ;and I've eaten heated grassfed suet during a zero-carb trial
(to which I developed a nasty reaction each time I ate the fat). Since suet is often used as the fat for pemmican, that counts.

As for foolish suggestions for me to eat pemmican for a whole
month, I've already eaten plenty of cooked animal fat in the past decades for me to know exactly
how harmful it is for me and I shudder at the thought of having to eat a diet of mostly melted animal fat especially while having to undergo the same horrendous
 zero-carb ordeal that I endured in past experiments. This pemmican ordeal is yet another variation and endangering my health is not an option as I'd much rather be able to get up in the mornings without that awful cooked-fat-induced hangover feeling.
Plus, while I haven't been eating only sh*t
 or pemmican for 5 full years, I think I can safely state that I don't need such "experience" in order to criticise coprophagia or the consumption of pemmican or similiar dubious practices.

« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 05:51:17 pm by TylerDurden »
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

 

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