Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: Löwenherz on November 06, 2011, 07:08:57 pm
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Please vote:
Are we meant to live in the tropics?
Löwenherz
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Of course not. For example, Orientals are designed to more easily live in Arctic conditions, having a smaller body-size etc.
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(...) a smaller body-size etc.
What else than a smaller body size ? What about Pygmies ?
What about orientals of Sri Lanka, Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, Melanesia ? ;)
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What else than a smaller body size ? What about Pygmies ?
What about orientals of Sri Lanka, Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, Melanesia ? ;)
There are other characteristics that East Asians have which adapt them better to the cold:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongoloid_race#Cold_adaption (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongoloid_race#Cold_adaption)
I think a distinction is made between "neo-mongoloids", which are Chinese and Eskimoes, and "paleo mongoloids" which consist of Filippinos and more southerly Orientals. I would assume that the latter are less adapted to the cold than the former, given their darker skin.
Sri Lankans are descended from Dravidian ethnic groups, not Oriental ones, last I checked(?).
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Yeah, of course there is some kind of at least partial adaptation to cold climates in most populations and individuals, but nevertheless none live nude in arctic conditions! This simple fact shows that we are not perfectly adapted to life outside of the tropics. We all are descended from tropical apes and hominids, as far as we know.
Very few would survive in winter without the fire or any kind of heated shelter, moreover without clothing. ;)
I didn’t vote because I think both answers (“Yes, no doubt! We all should actually live in warm regions.”- “Nonsense! Human beings are able to thrive nearly everywhere on this planet.”) are true. Being able to thrive somewhere doesn’t mean that we wouldn't feel better and be better adapted to somewhere else.
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I don't know about anyone else Lowen - but I'm meant to live in the tropics. ;) It's too coooooooooold out there for me and this place is considered one of the warm ones in the U.S. The kitties out there have fur coats and the chickens have down coats on - what do I have - nuthin but coats I can steal from them.
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Iguana, you are dead wrong re this. There is scientific data showing that we are partly descended from Neanderthals who were well adapted to living in Ice-Age Europe well before the advent of fire. And, there is increasing evidence to suggest we are descended from all sorts of other apemen, not just those which came from the tropics.
Personally, I can never understand this absurd love of warmth that some people have. I mean, warmer holidays with "sun, sea, sex and sand" tend to be overwhelmingly boring, often involving drunkenness and vomiting(such as in the Costa Del Sol, for example), or mindless, passive sunbathing, doing nothing, while one's skin slowly turns darker and more cancerous due to the sun's rays. And, in the summer, the water is usually as warm as bathwater, which is very unpleasant. That's why I far prefer swimming in the Northern Mediterranean in May or September, not so much in July/August.
For me, the ultimate weather is to wander out in the lovely and cold snow wearing just a t-shirt and jeans, and some trainers if the snow is not too deep. I have been told that Iceland has an average annual temperature of 15 degrees Celsius - if only I could get a job there instead!
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I was born in the tropics but I have always been attracted by cold countries. If I’m ok during the winter(very cool winter) I’m really in trouble during the summer. Does our skin color have something to do with the place we were meant to live?
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Tyler - perhaps why so many love laying on the beach is because they are vit d deficient and it's the only time most people tend to touch their naked feet and bodies directly to the ground - and of course the negative ions and the cleansing nature of sea water. When I lived in the tropics I spent most of my time outdoors in the shade in the forest gardening and doing stuff. That sterotype of vacations is very different than an every day lifestyle.
Tyler - would you really like to sleep outside in freezing weather - naked? Brrrrrrrr. It was almost freezing here last night and I thought to myself that I was grateful to have a shelter. Yesterday I had to work on my Meditteranean chickens' shelter to make it so that their waddles and combs wouldn't freeze. They do better in the heat of the summer here but need protection in the winter - like I think humans do. Frostbite is a real thing.
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10 years ago, before I did this diet, I was extremely susceptible to extremes of temperature, though heat was worse for me than cold. Once I started this diet, my circulation improved to the point where I could far more easily withstand really cold temperatures up in the mountains at night, than ever before.
I reckon it's all to do with what one is used to. People in cold climates on a constant basis will develop certain body structures, like the Neanderthals and East Asians did. Body coverings like furs clearly were also used long before modern humans ever appeared, so that helped too.
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I do think that the whole question is different if you are including the natural protections that animals use against the cold that humans wear. My ability to withstand the cold changed dramatically when I went all raw too Tyler..... but I still wouldn't want to sleep outside naked when it's so cold that water freezes and how low it can get below that in parts of the US. Going outside when it's 40 F and enjoying some fresh air is one thing - but all night naked in an upstate NY winter - not many if any can survive that. I can't imagine any modern human even eating all raw paleo for generations being adapted to that. Maybe certain ancient lines were adapted like the Neandertal, but my northern white and unfurry self would die quickly me-thinks.
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We aren't meant to live anywhere specific since that would imply concsious intelligent design. We may come from the tropics but that does not mean we ought to be there.
I think the correct question would have been: Has evolution, the process of natural selection, favoured the human race with adaptation to survive in cold climates? The obvious answer to that question is yes since we are still alive!
However on a closer look the issue is more complicated. The avarage human (that's excluding tyler) cannot surive in a temperatures below 20 degrees without some form of protection from shelter, fire or clothes. So obviously our bodies have not fully been adapted to withstand colder climates but our minds have. The ability to stay warm by the use of fire clothes and shelter is a huge evolutionary advantage.
As tyler pointed out some humans have physically adapted somewhat to the colder climates. Stil the biggest adaptation is in our minds.
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H-I-R - I did interpret Lowen's question asking if our BODIES are adapted meant just the actual physical self and not our intelligent manipulation of the environment. Of course we are adapted if you include central heating! :P ;)
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- would you really like to sleep outside in freezing weather - naked? Brrrrrrrr. It was almost freezing here last night and I thought to myself that I was grateful to have a shelter. Yesterday I had to work on my Meditteranean chickens'
D, while practicing high fat raw meat diet I have slept outdoors in the snow without socks, no gloves, not hat, no scarf, no hood, no heater, no blanket, no tent, no heating grate, no fire, no shack, just shoes, a jacket, pants, that's about it. I was not naked and I stayed near the wall to protect from some wind. I slept well and my knees weren't even stiff in the morning. I was more comfortable than indoor sleeping or sitting vegan or cooked. I may do sleep like that all this Winter. I told the son I've been talking about here. A few days later he proclaimed he plans to sleep outdoors this Winter. Eat high enough raw quality fat, and my experience is different. Sure there were no mountain lions around, but at least there's no insects like outdoor tropics. I can imagine a trillion mosquito bites trying this there.
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Iguana, you are dead wrong re this. There is scientific data showing that we are partly descended from Neanderthals who were well adapted to living in Ice-Age Europe well before the advent of fire. And, there is increasing evidence to suggest we are descended from all sorts of other apemen, not just those which came from the tropics.
Perhaps I’m dead wrong, but it’s generally admitted that we descend much more (if not totally) from Cro-Magnons (Sapiens) than Neanderthals.
According to this article and others, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110314152917.htm (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110314152917.htm)
Neanderthals mastered the fire and “(…) there is evidence that contemporary humans carry a small amount of Neanderthal DNA. Modern humans began migrating out of Africa to Europe some 40,000 years ago.”
How much DNA ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal#Genome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal#Genome)
Perhaps 1 to 4%, and it’s not even sure why.
Which species of non-tropical “apemen” are you talking about? You mean the Neanderthals were not descending from African hominids, Australopithecus and such, but were instead an entirely separate branch originated from unknown cold climate hominids and apes?
Sure, Neanderthals were better adapted to cold climate than Sapiens, but still it seems Neanderthals were wearing furs and using the fire most of the time. If they were perfectly adapted they wouldn’t need either. Saying they were perfectly adapted is like pretending that we are adapted to cooked food because we can reproduce and thrive on it.
No, I think it would be better to admit that the Neanderthals could live in Europe mostly because they used technology, even if “Neanderthal predecessors pushed into Europe's colder northern latitudes more than 800,000 years ago without the habitual control of fire, said Roebroecks”
Personally, I can never understand this absurd love of warmth that some people have. I mean, warmer holidays with "sun, sea, sex and sand" tend to be overwhelmingly boring, often involving drunkenness and vomiting(such as in the Costa Del Sol, for example), or mindless, passive sunbathing, doing nothing, while one's skin slowly turns darker and more cancerous due to the sun's rays. And, in the summer, the water is usually as warm as bathwater, which is very unpleasant. That's why I far prefer swimming in the Northern Mediterranean in May or September, not so much in July/August.
For me, the ultimate weather is to wander out in the lovely and cold snow wearing just a t-shirt and jeans, and some trainers if the snow is not too deep. I have been told that Iceland has an average annual temperature of 15 degrees Celsius - if only I could get a job there instead!
That is your personal fondness! But, again, would you be able to live in such places without a heated shelter and clothes?
For me, tropical sun and seas means swimming, snorkeling, and windsurfing without wetsuit, biking, walking bare feet on a river bed up to a waterfall in the jungle, working in the garden, reading, drinking young coconuts, eating seafood, jackfruits, durians and mangoes, living nude or almost even at night, contemplating the sky full of stars…
Anyways, thanks for the interesting discussion. I’m ready to change my stance on this matter if you can prove me you’re right and I’m wrong! ;)
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Zi - did you feel like you could do the same naked?
That's quite a testimonial!..... and really cool btw. 8) What was the temperature - do you know?
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GCB's son in snow. But I don't think he would spend a whole night like that... ;)
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Would someone please explain how in accord with physics that someone without clothing for insulation and heat retention would prevent their skin from freezing in our extremities as the warmth is needed to protect the interior how we possibly would not get frostbite in extreme cold? I know that with a raw paleo diet our circulation gets better and we have a better layer of fat to protect our inner organs so not so much energy would be taken from the extremities and eating all raw we don't have to waste so much of our energy on digestion and we have stronger metabolisms - but hey! - there is an actual limit. We can only generate so much heat and that heat escapes without fur or feathers or a massive amount of fat for insulation. Humans simply are not built like polar bears! We are built in every way to withstand HEAT! We walk upright so that the heat can escape and have lost most of our fur. We sweat all over our bodies for cooling. The hunter gathers of Africa can run for days after prey in the sweltering heat of the Kalahari and win because of the human ability to endure the heat. The prey gets overheated and exhausted where the bushman doesn't. We have very few adaptations to the cold like the animals that live naturally without fire and taking the protections of animals that do to use.
I think we can call ourselves adapted ONLY if we include our minds like H-I-R said.
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Iguana, the whole point is that the Neanderthals did not have the use of fire when they first appeared in Arctic/glacial areas almost a million years ago. So they managed to survive fine without the use of fire, for hundreds of thousands of years!
As for claims as regards survival, it all depends on what one is used to. For example, the Eskimoes have bodies so designed that they are far less likely to get frostbite than other ethnic groups. Plus, putting humans for a few generations into cold climates would kill off those least likely to survive in such harsh climates, with the rest being hardier.Then there is another point:- many arctic animals use various forms of shelter. For example, it was quite wrongly thought for decades that polar bears had no need for warmth - then they found that polar bear mothers did not breed successfully unless they had a warm place to lay in before and after birth. Bears in general also need a warm place for hibernation over the winter months and so on.
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As for claims as regards survival, it all depends on what one is used to. For example, the Eskimoes have bodies so designed that they are far less likely to get frostbite than other ethnic groups. Plus, putting humans for a few generations into cold climates would kill off those least likely to survive in such harsh climates, with the rest being hardier.Then there is another point:- many arctic animals use various forms of shelter. For example, it was quite wrongly thought for decades that polar bears had no need for warmth - then they found that polar bear mothers did not breed successfully unless they had a warm place to lay in before and after birth. Bears in general also need a warm place for hibernation over the winter months and so on.
That's a really good explanation Tyler. Ok, let's play with this a little. What if (totally hypothetical as all this is) we were to take the entire human population of the planet and put them in the antartic with no clothing and took away the clothes of the eskimos and took everything above what an animal would have available with their level of intelligence - how many if any do you think would survive and what population would have to survive to consider humans to be adapted to cold?
What we used to be adapted to and what we might be able to get adapted to in future generations doesn't really count for what we are adapted to now does it? If there are a small portion of mutants within an entire species, does that count as the species in general being already adapted?
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I can imagine a trillion mosquito bites trying this there.
Actually, mosquitoes in many places in the tropics are fairly rare. It depends on where you are. They're quite rare in Costa Rica, most of the time.
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I believe that man, for the most part, originated in the hot dry grasslands of the African savanna.
We developed long lean bodies and lost our thick fur, but kept long hair on the top of the head to protect us from the sun while walking upright on the hot open plains of Africa. We developed the ability to sweat profusely and dialate our blood vessels to dissipate the excessive heat while hunting or foraging under the midday sun of the savanna.
Cold weather adaptions must have occurred as Savanna Man began to migrate out of Africa and into the northern latitudes. The development of the intelligent use of resources to make artificial insulation that protected our naked bodies from the harsh cold being of Primarily importance. Fire may not have been a primary factor for Neanderthals survival, but it may have been more important to the survival of the modern men that were claimed to come out of Africa much later and had bodies that were far less tolerant to cold than their Neanderthal cousins.
Also, because their bodies were less tolerant to cold, necessity forced them to develop a higher intelligence in order to be able to fashion the high tech thermal wear that was essential for survival during the ice ages. Some of their clothing was quite ingenious for that primitive age.
I am sure that other biological adaptions occurred , besides larger brains , such as the gradual development of lighter skin that was better for absorbing the limited UV rays of northern latitudes, for optimal vitamine D production.
Even modern day black people often get excessively dry skin in cold climates while their fellow white skinned neighbors seem to have far less problems. I believe that people who evolved in northen latitudes have a difference in the sub layer of skin which allows them to keep heat more so than those whose ancestors stayed in tropics.
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Actually, mosquitoes in many places in the tropics are fairly rare. It depends on where you are. They're quite rare in Costa Rica, most of the time.
I've only been to a handful of tropical places, and I don't mean hotels. Aren't there insects in Costa Rica? Do any bite?
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Would someone please explain how in accord with physics that someone without clothing for insulation and heat retention would prevent their skin from freezing in our extremities as the warmth is needed to protect the interior how we possibly would not get frostbite in extreme cold?
The fat isn't just under the skin and no where else. It's all over where you need it, after eating the right proportions for a while in my experience. It's in and around every cell, like a child with thick non-dry skin or an older deer buck or buffalo. Yes we don't have fur, or at least I don't, but if our skin changes and we have good fat in the right places inside, and I know my blood is thick and healthy type thick, I think it helps too. My blood takes somewhere around four times longer than average people's to come out when I'm donating blood.
- did you feel like you could do the same naked?
That's quite a testimonial!..... and really cool btw. 8) What was the temperature - do you know?
I spent a Winter in deep blizzards with open sandals very active no frost bite. I wore thin blouses, no jacket at times, no problem. My bathing preference or relaxing preference indoors at night was a cold bath, long one. The sleeping I mentioned above, there was a lot of snow, but not as much as the blizzards. I don't think I recorded the temperatures. I really have hated heating and cooling for decades, so it isn't a big deal to sleep outside or walk open toes walking through too much snow for most people to go out at all, even if I just came in from warmer climate, in nasty blizzards with thin blouse between my skin and flying snow. In Winters with heat on all the time, I can't take the heating (even if it were cooling in Summer). It's been that way that I remember for about three decades. So, for me it's not hard to do it really, it's more like it's sickening not to. I have theories why. I think my body has a need to regulate it's own temperature, then I feel good. When something outside is regulating the room, my body/mind fight it and is confused and actually gets the wrong temperature. I haven't tried it naked and don't plan to. I don't think it would be the same. I like a thin layer between me and the elements, maybe it's some of my unusual antibodies that I had. Difference between raw animal food and fats and not is that my hands freeze terribly painfully without any of the raw fat (and raw meat).
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I've only been to a handful of tropical places, and I don't mean hotels. Aren't there insects in Costa Rica? Do any bite?
The sand fleas on the beaches will bite you at dawn and dusk. Otherwise, the insects are pretty rare except for the ants, which rule the tropics everywhere, and who you had better never step on.
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D and S, what you forget is that people are wusses nowadays, not just in a genetic way. One wouldn't need mutants to survive in the cold, just a few generations in the arctic, minus support, to cull off the weakest, and the rest would survive. I often note that humans in extreme survival situations, such as advanced military exercises etc., suddenly find themselves able, eventually, to run across snow barefoot etc. Plus since wild animals in the arctic also often need warm shelters, it would be reasonable for humans to have such too, when sleeping, such as igloos. Plus, I recall, in one survival book, tips on how to carve holes in the ice/snow for sleeping in - what happens then, is that in the insulated, confined space, the human body temperature makes the place much warmer.
The antarctic is a very bad example, as no humans ever went there until modern times. It also has unusual weather conditions etc. which make it harsher than anywhere else, even the arctic, as I recall, even for emperor penguins.
You are also forgetting something else:- palaeo HGs would cover vast distances throughout each year in order to keep up with migrating herds of herbivores so that they could have a ready supply of foods. So they were unlikely to spend much time in one place, and would have had access to both hot and cold areas, though perhaps having less of the former due to the Ice-Age.
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Iguana, the whole point is that the Neanderthals did not have the use of fire when they first appeared in Arctic/glacial areas almost a million years ago. So they managed to survive fine without the use of fire, for hundreds of thousands of years!
Yes, some managed to survive and natural selection acted during some hundreds thousand years so that generation after generations the survivors were more and more able to stand the cold. As you say (quote below), an adaptation to different climates is certainly much easier than an adaptation to cooked food.
But anyway we, modern humans, are not Neanderthals but Sapiens (with perhaps no more than 1% to 4% DNA from Neanderthals), and Sapiens came out of Africa some 30 or 40 thousands years ago only.
As for claims as regards survival, it all depends on what one is used to. For example, the Eskimoes have bodies so designed that they are far less likely to get frostbite than other ethnic groups. Plus, putting humans for a few generations into cold climates would kill off those least likely to survive in such harsh climates, with the rest being hardier.Then there is another point:- many arctic animals use various forms of shelter. For example, it was quite wrongly thought for decades that polar bears had no need for warmth - then they found that polar bear mothers did not breed successfully unless they had a warm place to lay in before and after birth. Bears in general also need a warm place for hibernation over the winter months and so on.
What kind of warm places can they find in the Arctic? -\
Overall, being able to survive somewhere doesn’t mean such location is optimal for our health, well being and happiness : we can survive on cooked food too. I guess that most of us would prefer to live in a tropical or subtropical place rather than in the Arctic, especially if it is without using any kind of artifice such as heating and clothing.
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I don't know about anyone else Lowen - but I'm meant to live in the tropics. ;) It's too coooooooooold out there for me and this place is considered one of the warm ones in the U.S.
Germany, Monday, November 7, 2011: Temperature 7 degrees Celsius,
it's COLD, it's DARK, it's rainy. I hate it.
I LOVE warm weather + sunshine.
Tyler is right, humans adapted to cold climates. But this ability is very limited, IMO. Diet is a very important factor. If I eat fruit in the winter, I always feel very cold. In the last years I tried several times to achieve maximum adaptation to cold weather. I stuffed myself with tons of raw animal fat + protein. My resistance to cold weather significantly increased over time. Down to 10 degrees Celsius I felt relatively comfortable. But below that temperature NO diet or anything else helps. I need clothing and heating. And there is another, more important downside: Eating constantly very high amounts of animal food affects me mentally negatively.
NOBODY can convince me that our body is designed for cold regions. Even the toughest raw paleo dieter needs warm clothes in the cold. Isn't this enough proof?
Tyler, please don't forget that there is a not unimportant difference between surviving and thriving!
Löwenherz
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Personally, I can never understand this absurd love of warmth that some people have. I mean, warmer holidays with "sun, sea, sex and sand" tend to be overwhelmingly boring, often involving drunkenness and vomiting(such as in the Costa Del Sol, for example), or mindless, passive sunbathing
LOL!! The Brits! LOL!
I have been told that Iceland has an average annual temperature of 15 degrees Celsius - if only I could get a job there instead!
Try to get a job there and you WILL get if this is really your wish.
Iguana could send you some bananas via air freight..
Löwenherz
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D, while practicing high fat raw meat diet I have slept outdoors in the snow without socks, no gloves, not hat, no scarf, no hood, no heater, no blanket, no tent, no heating grate, no fire, no shack, just shoes, a jacket, pants, that's about it. I was not naked and I stayed near the wall to protect from some wind. I slept well and my knees weren't even stiff in the morning.
I was more comfortable than indoor sleeping or sitting vegan or cooked. I may do sleep like that all this Winter. I told the son I've been talking about here. A few days later he proclaimed he plans to sleep outdoors this Winter. Eat high enough raw quality fat, and my experience is different. Sure there were no mountain lions around, but at least there's no insects like outdoor tropics. I can imagine a trillion mosquito bites trying this there.
WOW! Your body seems to be really HOT! I guess all the snow within a radius of three miles around your sleeping place melted off... :)
Mosquito bites are really no issue on a fully raw diet, although these little monsters are nasty. One morning I woke up with more than 80 bites, no problem at all. The small wounds healed within 24 hours. Whereas cooked food eaters often get problems and need most often a much longer healing time.
I have to admit that even I don't feel 100% comfortable at tropical shores, due to the heat and massive amounts of insects. Tropical mountains are the perfect place in my 'world' (which is an illusion, please don't forget ;)). By adjusting the altitude you can choose your desired temperature which is usually stable 365 days a year, with wonderful lush green surroundings...
Löwenherz
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Would someone please explain how in accord with physics that someone without clothing for insulation and heat retention would prevent their skin from freezing in our extremities as the warmth is needed to protect the interior how we possibly would not get frostbite in extreme cold? I know that with a raw paleo diet our circulation gets better and we have a better layer of fat to protect our inner organs so not so much energy would be taken from the extremities and eating all raw we don't have to waste so much of our energy on digestion and we have stronger metabolisms - but hey! - there is an actual limit. We can only generate so much heat and that heat escapes without fur or feathers or a massive amount of fat for insulation. Humans simply are not built like polar bears! We are built in every way to withstand HEAT! We walk upright so that the heat can escape and have lost most of our fur. We sweat all over our bodies for cooling. The hunter gathers of Africa can run for days after prey in the sweltering heat of the Kalahari and win because of the human ability to endure the heat. The prey gets overheated and exhausted where the bushman doesn't. We have very few adaptations to the cold like the animals that live naturally without fire and taking the protections of animals that do to use.
I think we can call ourselves adapted ONLY if we include our minds like H-I-R said.
Exactly,
exactly,
exactly!
:o Löwenherz
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Difference between raw animal food and fats and not is that my hands freeze terribly painfully without any of the raw fat (and raw meat).
RawZi,
what kind of animal fats do you usually prefer? I guess that the most saturated animal fats (like bison backfat) are the working best to achieve good body isolation as described in your post..?
May I ask you how many years you are now living on a raw paleo diet?
Löwenherz
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I mean, warmer holidays with "sun, sea, sex and sand" tend to be overwhelmingly boring
my wife and i don't find it boring.
if i had a choice i would spend winter months in the tropics and summer in the northern hemisphere.
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The point is that just as wild animals create warm dens in the Arctic for themselves, so can we as regards igloos or survival shelters. I mean, making huts out of pieces of wood in palaeo times is no different from much smaller birds using twigs to make a nice warm nest for themselves and their young.
The Out of Africa theory has by no means been proven, with it stating that migration out of africa occurred 70,000 years ago. If, as is likely, the multiregional hypothesis is correct, given that we are proven to be descended from Neanderthals etc., then many of our hominid ancestors left Africa up to a million years ago:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiregional_origin_of_modern_humans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiregional_origin_of_modern_humans)
The other point about the tropics is that they are mosquito-ridden with malaria and other nasty tropical diseases occurring there. Now, malaria-resistant black Africans and similiar ethnic groups might not have too many problems therein, but other ethnic groups would. Last time I was in the jungle, for example, I was extremely uncomfortable given the c. 10 insect bites I got every couple of seconds or so. Having to live there all my life would be like living in Dante's vision of Hell.
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The point is that just as wild animals create warm dens in the Arctic for themselves, so can we as regards igloos or survival shelters. I mean, making huts out of pieces of wood in palaeo times is no different from much smaller birds using twigs to make a nice warm nest for themselves and their young.
Yes, but most of us like it to be outside in the warm sunshine, walking barefoot etc. much more than to sit in an igloo.
The other point about the tropics is that they are mosquito-ridden with malaria and other nasty tropical diseases occurring there.
In my view we don't have to fear such tropical dis-eases as long as we follow a 100% raw dairy and grain free diet. Really. Most certainly malaria and other monsters are as harmless as colds and flus in colder regions. Although I have not been born in a tropical country I never got any problem in the tropics and very often I didn't use mosquito nets or any other "protection". OK, thats everything else than representative. But I also have never heard that any raw foodist got one of the typical dis-eases like dengue-fever etc. in tropical places. If you stay in London or elsewhere in Europe think of all the thousands of people around you fighting with colds and flus and other common dis-eases, always caused by bad viruses and bad bacteria if you listen to our doctors. Do you get all these viruses and bacteria? YES. Do you get colds and flus like all the others? Probably not. And btw: We should never fear anything.
Perhaps Iguana could say something more about raw foodists and tropical diseases?
Last time I was in the jungle, for example, I was extremely uncomfortable given the c. 10 insect bites I got every couple of seconds or so. Having to live there all my life would be like living in Dante's vision of Hell.
Where have you been?
Löwenherz
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The Out of Africa theory has by no means been proven, with it stating that migration out of africa occurred 70,000 years ago. If, as is likely, the multiregional hypothesis is correct, given that we are proven to be descended from Neanderthals etc., then many of our hominid ancestors left Africa up to a million years ago:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiregional_origin_of_modern_humans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiregional_origin_of_modern_humans)
The other point about the tropics is that they are mosquito-ridden with malaria and other nasty tropical diseases occurring there. Now, malaria-resistant black Africans and similiar ethnic groups might not have too many problems therein, but other ethnic groups would. Last time I was in the jungle, for example, I was extremely uncomfortable given the c. 10 insect bites I got every couple of seconds or so. Having to live there all my life would be like living in Dante's vision of Hell.
I read in your link:
A majority of scholars prefer the primary competing hypothesis, which postulates a recent African origin of modern humans (…)
The primary competing scientific hypothesis is currently recent African origin of modern humans, which proposes that modern humans arose as a new species in Africa around 100-200,000 years ago, moving out of Africa around 50-60,000 years ago to replace existing human species such as Homo erectus and the Neanderthals without interbreeding.[54][55][56][57] This differs from the multiregional hypothesis in that the multiregional model predicts interbreeding with preexisting local human populations in any such migration.[57]
Even if there was interbreeding with the Neanderthals (which is far from sure), this was to a very limited extend, with us having no more than 1% to 4% DNA from Neanderthals, as stated in the link I gave before.
The origins of malaria - Following the plough
A genetic study suggests that malaria may have evolved because of farming
http://www.economist.com/node/699558 (http://www.economist.com/node/699558)
(…) According to work published this week by Sarah Volkman, of Harvard University, and her colleagues, Plasmodium falciparum, the parasite that causes the severest form of malaria, seems to have got going between 7,700 and 3,200 years ago. A study published in June, by Sarah Tishkoff of the University of Maryland and her colleagues, comes up with a range of 11,760 to 3,840 years ago.
Both teams looked at gene frequencies to arrive at these estimates. Dr Volkman studied the genes of the parasite itself. Dr Tishkoff examined those of its host, Homo sapiens. Both were testing a hypothesis first proposed in 1958 by an anthropologist called Frank Livingstone.
Dr Livingstone thought that the emergence of malaria might have been connected with the beginning of agriculture. He argued that sunlit pools left in patches of forest cleared for farming would have been perfect sites for the mosquitoes that transmit the disease to breed in, and also that the growing human populations that agriculture permitted would have provided an abundance of convenient hosts.
Dr Volkman and her team tested this idea by looking at the range of genetic variation found in P. falciparum. In general, the more variation there is in a gene in a population, the longer it is since that population’s individuals shared an ancestor. Such variation can therefore act as a “molecular clock”, from which the age of the common ancestral gene can be deduced.
The best genes for this purpose are so-called neutral genes: those that are not subject to strong selective pressures that will stop random mutations from accumulating them. Averaged over a sufficient period, such random changes accumulate at a constant rate in neutral genes. But previous studies of genetic variation in P. falciparum have concentrated on those genes that help the parasite to evade the human immune system, or protect it from insecticides. These are clearly subject to strong selective pressures, and therefore make poor molecular clocks.
When Dr Volkman looked at nine neutral genes, she found little variation across widely separated parasite populations, suggesting the common ancestors of those genes were recent. And when she applied estimates of the speed of mutation to her results, the ages coincided neatly with the Neolithic agricultural revolution. (…)
I read something alike long ago.
The tropical areas are vast and diverse. Some places are mosquitoes infested, some are better be avoided because of malaria while in some other places there are no mosquitoes.
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Mosquitoes and what our relationship with them would be living completely in the tropics full time over years and in touch with our plant helpers is misunderstood.
In the tropics of America they would call you "new blood" Tyler. Everyone that visits gets eaten alive until their blood adapts and as you live there you get less and less bites over time ........ and that doesn't even take into account that you can eat plants that grow in the tropics that change the taste of your blood so that the mosquitoes basically leave you alone - or at least you don't even feel them. Whether or not we catch diseases from mosquitoes is also very much like Lowen talked about - if you are eating a raw appropriate diet you just don't get them. Just like dogs and wolves living in the wild don't get heart worm from mosquitoes like the pets that eat cooked bad food do. Next time you are going to the tropics - eat tons of raw garlic for a few months and your experience might be quite different.
The point you made about the Antarctic being extreme is a very good one. Perhaps we are or could get adapted to outside of the actual tropics. You and Zi made an excellent case for that. But I would add that if our bodies would get adapted to more cold over generations then the same argument holds true that we have gotten more adapted to NOT being in the cold - so still - in the present - not in the future - we are not adapted.
What question is Lowen asking? Is he asking if we could adapt outside of our already adapted range or what is presently our adaptation - generally - as a species - at present?
If you go further and include the mind and the ability to build shelters with tools and to use clothing as part of the adaptation then it is clear that our bodies using these have adapted away from tolerance of the cold as most of us would die very quickly without those if placed suddenly into a very cold environment.
Doesn't adaptation imply the environment that is most appropriate for a species? Just because something can be survived through doesn't necessarily mean it is the environment that best suits. We are an animal that so clearly adapted to be able to survive heat that the argument that we are adapted to survive extreme cold makes little sense to me. We stand upright because to release HEAT - hair only where it is useful in the HEAT and we sweat all over our bodies.
You don't like heat, but it doesn't mean that your ancestors weren't changed to tolerate it it perhaps you have made slight adaptions to living in slightly colder places than where we first developed - but generally - as a species - the weight of the adaptions ----- at present ------ go towards surviving heat rather than cold.
And there is a reason that to most people going on a tropical vacation is like going to paradise. You as an individual don't like it and there might be quite a few like you. My preference for warmth and your preference for cold and Zi's preference never to be outside of temperature control does not a species-wide adaptation make.
If you put half of our entire species as it is today in the extreme cold without clothing and no human tools and you put the other half in the tropics without clothing or human tools - in which environment would the most survive?
If you gave all the people a choice of which they could go to, where do you think the vast majority would choose?
The question isn't if some of the people sent to the extreme cold can survive or adapt over generations. The question is what are our bodies adapted to at present.
And of course, we do have our minds so can live just about anywhere - even in space - which might be fun to try one day too. ;)
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You don't like heat, but it doesn't mean that your ancestors weren't changed to tolerate it it perhaps you have made slight adaptions to living in slightly colder places than where we first developed - but generally - as a species - the weight of the adaptions ----- at present ------ go towards surviving heat rather than cold.
I am fine with natural outdoor hot weather at first depending on how hot. Of course if it's crazy-hot and I wasn't well, my first few days were hell. After maybe years the heat takes everything out of me and I feel like I'm losing consciousness dangerously. In cold and freezing though I always experience consciousness except when deeply asleep a few hours a day (more like night). I just need a little protection from freezing air and wind and snow, not much protection, just from "biting" winds, if I am eating like someone who lives there all the time. The heat though, it doesn't matter if I eat what grows there and clean water etc, perhaps coconuts, I don't know maybe fish never tried it. I do tolerate hot weather better than I did now that I eat RAF, but cold and "bitter cold" feels nicer. I wasn't always like this. Till my mid late twenties I liked hot weather not so cold, till the heat was knocking me out. I'm not afraid of malaria at all, but I like consciousness.
And there is a reason that to most people going on a tropical vacation is like going to paradise. You as an individual don't like it and there might be quite a few like you. My preference for warmth and your preference for cold and Zi's preference never to be outside of temperature control does not a species-wide adaptation make.
You may not be hearing me D. Temperature control is the term commonly used for artificial heating and artificial cooling, right? Artificial heating and cooling is what make me feel sick. My metabolism is apparently functional when getting activity a little in early morning or even afternoon sun and a lot at night. Indoors my metabolism is stressed trying to regulate to what temperature my body wants while the artificial heating and cooling directs something else. I call my body's needs natural.
Who is "your". What other person are you talking to? I assume Zi is me. Do you mean Tyler?
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Sorry Zi - that was a typo. I knew exactly what you meant. Fingers not working so well it seems today. I've heard you talk about how bad temperature control is for you several times before. I don't like it either generally, but I don't live alone. If it were up to me I might have some heat on the coldest nights here, but other than that I would much prefer not to have central air and the windows open. Maybe if I could live that way and eat enough fat I would have similar experiences to you and not be thinking about moving some place without the allergens, air filters and windows closed.
I had referred to Tyler before so "your" was directed towards Tyler as he is making the strongest arguments (besides your experiences) that we are adapted to live in the cold.
I think your experiences are fascinating and edifying Zi. Thank you for sharing them.
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Yes, but most of us like it to be outside in the warm sunshine, walking barefoot etc. much more than to sit in an igloo.
Seems like you’re right…
Perhaps Iguana could say something more about raw foodists and tropical diseases?
I lived and traveled in the tropics quite some years altogether and never got any tropical disease, even when I was still eating cooked food. I’ve just always avoided the places known as being very much infested with malaria, such as Halmahera in Indonesia. A raw diet doesn’t make you immune to malaria: as a matter of fact its’s about the only disease which doesn’t heal with instinctotherapy. Take the proper medicine in case you get it : chloroquin should be ok if it’s malaria vivax, but if by bad luck you get the deadly falciparum, stronger and more specific drugs are absolutely necessary. But I would never take anything preventively, it’s stupid and all the tourists taking drugs uselessly make the plasmodium more and more resistant.
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A raw diet doesn’t make you immune to malaria: as a matter of fact its’s about the only disease which doesn’t heal with instinctotherapy.
probably because it isn't a disease at all.
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probably because it isn't a disease at all.
Do you mean because it's a parasite?
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It is , of course, irrelevant as to where half the world would want to live if given the chance. After all, whether one stays in one place or moves was dependent on things like food-availability etc. in palaeo times - if herds migrated north, people had to move North etc.
The issue of adaptation is simple:- we would only need 3 generations or so for most people to adapt to the cold, with quite a number now already adapted, provided they ate raw foods like the Inuit and understood simple survival tips like living in igloos or survival shelters in the snow etc.
As for the Out of Africa theory, the fact that it is still the majority belief among scientists does not make it correct. It is common for flawed scientific theories to be rigidly adhered to by mainstream opinion decades after the theory starts to prove faulty. In this case, the Out of Africa theory was a flawed quasi-Creationist theory which tried to claim a very recent, common origin of mankind while also trying to claim that modern humans never once interbred with(nor were descended from) the Neanderthals or any other apemen. Recent scientific data showing that modern humans are indeed descended from Neanderthals and one other apeman already debunk one major aspect of the out of africa theory. Plus, attempts by out of africa theorists to claim that Neanderthals and other apemen were just dumb brutes, with modern humans coming out of nowhere and suddenly acquiring language, culture etc. out of the blue, have also been disproven.
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"The issue of adaptation is simple:- we would only need 3 generations or so for most people to adapt to the cold, with quite a number now already adapted, provided they ate raw foods like the Inuit and understood simple survival tips like living in igloos or survival shelters in the snow etc."
How do you know this Tyler? Were there experiments or studies or something or are you guessing?
Where we are drawn to live is relevant because it speaks to our adaptations. Why do people want to go to the tropics and lay almost naked or naked on the beaches - because it feels good to them. If they were covered in fur, they probably wouldn't want to go there.
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Another thought Tyler - with what you are saying - does that mean if penguins had to move into warmer climates to get food (or global warming - or whatever reason) that because some of them survived and were able to still reproduce although the majority died that you would say that penguins are adapted to warm areas?
If there came another ice-age but this time all the way down to Florida and some of the tropical birds were able to survive it and adapted enough in the next few generations not to die off completely, would that mean that those species were "adapted" to living in the cold?
I don't mean those questions snidely btw - I think we might have different ideas of what the word adaptation means is all.
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As for the Out of Africa theory, the fact that it is still the majority belief among scientists does not make it correct. It is common for flawed scientific theories to be rigidly adhered to by mainstream opinion decades after the theory starts to prove faulty.
Sure. But on the other hand, it’s not because you, TD, believe something else that you’re necessarily correct. For instance, this is the first time I read such weird assumptions:
In this case, the Out of Africa theory was a flawed quasi-Creationist theory which tried to claim a very recent, common origin of mankind while also trying to claim that modern humans never once interbred with(nor were descended from) the Neanderthals or any other apemen. Recent scientific data showing that modern humans are indeed descended from Neanderthals and one other apeman already debunk one major aspect of the out of africa theory. Plus, attempts by out of africa theorists to claim that Neanderthals and other apemen were just dumb brutes, with modern humans coming out of nowhere and suddenly acquiring language, culture etc. out of the blue, have also been disproven.
I never understood the ”Out-of-Africa” theory as a quasi creationist, but on the contrary as assuming that the first hominids such as Australopithecus evolved from big apes, probably chimps which are genetically very, very close to us. I don’t think this theory claimed anything like what you say. Again, which mysterious “apeman” are you talking about? Neanderthals are now recognized by every sensible person as not having been the dumb brutes as believed in the past. And excuse me, but how can you pretend that the “Out-of-Africa theory” is saying that modern humans came out of nowhere? It just doesn’t make sense because it actually says they came out of Africa… and Neanderthals too!!
http://www.iupui.edu/~mstd/a103/Human%20Origins%20Chart.htm (http://www.iupui.edu/~mstd/a103/Human%20Origins%20Chart.htm)
Various paleoanthropologists might dispute the precise path human origins has taken, but most are in general agreement on the structure below, as presented by the American Museum of Natural History (AMNH) on a web site no longer available. Of course, new evidence may change both the "family tree" and the dates.
(http://www.iupui.edu/~mstd/a103/Human%20Origins%20Chart_files/iskull.gif)
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The issue of adaptation is simple:- we would only need 3 generations or so for most people to adapt to the cold, with quite a number now already adapted, provided they ate raw foods like the Inuit and understood simple survival tips like living in igloos or survival shelters in the snow etc.
You have very imaginative ideas.
But the 'Out of Africa' story seems really to be complete nonsense. I guess you know Paleontologist Christopher Beard and the 'Out of Asia' -theory:
http://www.carnegiemuseums.org/cmag/feature.php?id=261 (http://www.carnegiemuseums.org/cmag/feature.php?id=261)
http://www.jhu.edu/jhumag/0401web/crust.html (http://www.jhu.edu/jhumag/0401web/crust.html)
http://www.welt.de/wissenschaft/article10571917/Wiege-der-Menschheit-womoeglich-nicht-Afrika.html (http://www.welt.de/wissenschaft/article10571917/Wiege-der-Menschheit-womoeglich-nicht-Afrika.html)
Löwenherz
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Dorothy, I simply mean that I have had personal experience of people, including myself, who have changed their lifestyles/diet etc. , and become much more adapted to the cold within just a few years. Most wouldn't need to also alter their DNA in order to survive, except possibly those humans with darker skin etc. who would be less well adapted, presumably.
Same applies to wild animals, as they, too, are more adaptable to their environments than you like to claim.
The fact that modern people are so decadent that many now want warmer climes is irrelevant. It does not imply a search for health, since tanning the skin makes it more likely to get skin cancer, and ages the skin as well.
Indeed, one could argue that living in colder areas is more healthy as it is more invigorating.
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Iguana, the reason why the out of africa is quasi-creationist is because it tries to claim a common ancestor for all humans that is far too recent. There was that bizarre, "african eve" claim for example, which clearly was an attempt to fashion a quasi-Biblical "adam-and-eve" type story to human evolution. The Out of africa theory is also quasi-creationist since its proponents have been trying to claim falsely, for decades, that modern humans are not descended from apemen nor interbred with them, yet current evidence shows that modern humans share DNA with at least 2 apemen types, with indications of other types of apemen DNA being present as well. So it seems that our DNA came from all over the "Old World" not just Africa.
Then there's the overly simplistic diagram you showed. For example, some evidence has come to light, suggesting that modern East Asians may be partially descended from advanced types of homo erectus. So the old, silly notion that Neanderthals and Homo Erectus were "behind" modern humans, in an evolutionary sense, must be wrong. And that silly notion was directly derived from the Out of Africa theory which wrongly claimed, for decades, that Neanderthals and Homo Erectus were so stupid, lacking culture or the ability to talk that it was supposedly impossible for modern humans to have interbred with them. Now that various different kinds of "apeman" DNA have been found in modern humans and more evidence has come to light showing that Neanderthals etc. were on a par with modern humans, the OA theory is increasingly showing flaws.
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Dorothy, I simply mean that I have had personal experience of people, including myself, who have changed their lifestyles/diet etc. , and become much more adapted to the cold within just a few years. Most wouldn't need to also alter their DNA in order to survive, except possibly those humans with darker skin etc. who would be less well adapted, presumably.
Same applies to wild animals, as they, too, are more adaptable to their environments than you like to claim.
The fact that modern people are so decadent that many now want warmer climes is irrelevant. It does not imply a search for health, since tanning the skin makes it more likely to get skin cancer, and ages the skin as well.
Indeed, one could argue that living in colder areas is more healthy as it is more invigorating.
Ok, so let's see if I understand you Tyler - you are saying that as a species, eating the appropriate raw diet for living in extremely cold environments (for at least a few years) we are already adapted as our dna would not have to change and the vast majority would live. This being the case, with correct diet, down to what temperatures do you suppose that humans would survive/thrive in? (If you tell me in celcius - as a "primitive" American - I will have to look it up ;) )
Oh - and I doubt that the sun really is the cause of skin cancer. Maybe the sun combined with other factors - but since we stopped going out into the sun and started lathering ourselves up with toxic sun-blocks - skin cancer rates have risen.
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Sorry Zi - that was a typo. I knew exactly what you meant. Fingers not working so well it seems today. I've heard you talk about how bad temperature control is for you several times before. I don't like it either generally, but I don't live alone. If it were up to me I might have some heat on the coldest nights here, but other than that I would much prefer not to have central air and the windows open. Maybe if I could live that way and eat enough fat I would have similar experiences to you and not be thinking about moving some place without the allergens, air filters and windows closed.
I don't live alone either. That's why I need diet. The other members of my household who have hands do things like turn on the climate control and light fireplaces when I'm sleeping, so I wake up dry and bleeding if I don't have enough fat. It's always been that way except when I controlled my home and had no climate control devices, just open windows. The coldest day of the year is the most important time for outdoor air for me, as the indoor air is more artificial then.
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WOW! Your body seems to be really HOT! I guess all the snow within a radius of three miles around your sleeping place melted off... :)
I find or make a spot. I sit against something, maybe a wall, I don't lay actually in the snow like GCBs son. I wear good denim pants. I try to concentrate on keeping my heat within me when going to sleep, maybe pull my arms from my sleeves. But yes, I generate heat, unless I'm sick. I think it's natural. I think anyone would generate enough heat in the situation, any healthy adult.
Mosquito bites are really no issue on a fully raw diet, ...
Right. Eating this diet it's easy to stay calm. Mosquitoes don't like to bite calm people. Yes, that too, I don't get itchy bumps when eating these foods that don't offend.
.. massive amounts of insects. Tropical mountains are the perfect place in my 'world' (which is an illusion, please don't forget ;)). By adjusting the altitude ..
Yes, I had found higher up there were less and no mosquitoes.
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what kind of animal fats do you usually prefer? I guess that the most saturated animal fats (like bison backfat) are the working best to achieve good body isolation as described in your post..?
May I ask you how many years you are now living on a raw paleo ..
Lately the best fat I've been eating most of is grass finished beef marrow not having been frozen. I love bison back-fat, but I find it too difficult to get. I eat free range raw not been frozen chicken fat, raw local home made not been frozen Jersey cultured cream and butter, raw level four not been frozen pork belly, whatever I can get! I eat some raw not been frozen fatty lamb. I eat some raw not been frozen liver, turns out that has fat, I eat it mostly from chickens now. I eat whole pastured unwashed not been cooled eggs. I don't eat much suet ever. I find it a little dry.
I started RVAFD almost six years now. I'm not completely paleo. I have been completely AV style pd, and like how that works a lot. How about you?
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Well, given my own experiences, I would say that 0 degrees Celsius is fine. Most would have to learn survival techniques in order to live without fire at lower temperatures.
The point, though, is this:- sure, because of the advent of fire, no doubt our ability to withstand the cold has been reduced. So, living without fire for a few generations would favour those body-modifications that better withstand the cold. Not new mutations, just minor changes such as better circulation, thicker fat-layers being deposited under the skin etc.
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Isn't the slant eye of the mongoloids a cold weather adaption which is basically extra fat tissue that adds extra protection for their eye sight in Arctic conditions?
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Isn't the slant eye of the mongoloids a cold weather adaption which is basically extra fat tissue that adds extra protection for their eye sight in Arctic conditions?
I've read that they are an adaptation to cope with dry, sandy desert winds.
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The issue of adaptation is simple:- we would only need 3 generations or so for most people to adapt to the cold..
And we would only need 3 months or so for most people to adapt to the heat. In my view most people who have problems with warm climates just eat TOO much food. That's simply the main problem. But it is comprehensible that people eat so much if they live in cold countries.
As for the Out of Africa theory, the fact that it is still the majority belief among scientists does not make it correct.
Right, and which theory do you think comes clother to the truth?
Löwenherz
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Well, given my own experiences, I would say that 0 degrees Celsius is fine. Most would have to learn survival techniques in order to live without fire at lower temperatures.
That would be an amazing progress compared to my 10 degrees Celsius level.
I got the impression that you eat a lot of fruit. You mentioned recently that you frequently eat nothing else than fruit on some days.
How does fruit consumption affects your resistance to cold temperatures?
Löwenherz
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Obviously, I think the multiregional hypothesis is the correct one. It simply doesn't make sense to assume that modern man isn't a combination of admixtures of other hominid types, such as the Neanderthals etc.
As far as fruit/meat is concerned, I always eat more raw plant foods in the summer and more raw meats in the winter, as eating raw meat makes me feel much hotter.
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Well, given my own experiences, I would say that 0 degrees Celsius is fine. Most would have to learn survival techniques in order to live without fire at lower temperatures.
HA! We've been saying the same thing this whole time and didn't know it! That's pretty much the DEFINITION of TROPICAL! Below freezing is when we need protection because that is when our skin would freeze! You're talking pretty warm. All the United States except the extreme south coast (even most Florida reaches) that temperature. In parts of tropical Florida the temperature goes down below that - what makes it still tropical is that it doesn't happen for enough days/nights in a row to freeze the ground. Granted it happens much less frequently, but every year here in Central and South Texas it goes substantially below that - usually at night.
The gulf stream gives England mild weather generally so you rarely get below zero celsius there if I'm not mistaken - so your climate is actually closer to Florida weather than it is to the relative coldTexas weather in some ways (which is considered very warm generally in the US). No wonder you think that humans can withstand really cold weather because to you, I'm starting to think, all but the smallest part of my vast country would be considered too cold to survive without fire and survival techniques. You could survive the cold in your country - because it doesn't get very cold.
We are in total agreement Tyler. Much under the temperature of freezing - fire and survival techniques are likely necessary.
The only difference between our thought processes me thinks is that we have different experiences of the tropics. You seem to have been to places in the tropics during the sweltering times and/or places in the tropics that did not get as cold in the winter. Where you are from is not considered the tropics, yet is quite close to tropical temperature lows in some tropical places and where I live too many people consider generally to be warmer than it is -- they try to grow tropical plants that end up dying and think that they don't need any winter clothes --- which is only true if you run from building to car to building and stay indoors at night during the coldest times. But living outdoors through winter would necessitate survival training.... except maybe for Zi! LOL
I'm glad the confusion is cleared up. I like being in agreement with you Tyler. :D
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I'm amazed that you can spout such b*ll*cks! I mean, suggesting that the cold, rainy British weather has anything in common with the tropics is absolutely laughable! And then your suggesting that so-called "wintry" Florida, with its swamps, alligators, orange groves etc. is semi-arctic just because of an occasional cold day every year - unbelievable ! l) l) l) l)
Plus, I also have lived extensively in Austria which routinely has snow in winter and is bloody cold at times. So I am perfectly well aware what "cold" means. And I did NOT state that fire was ever needed below zero ceslsius, just slightly more advanced survival skills re making shelters for sleeping in, that's all.
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I'm amazed that you can spout such b*ll*cks! I mean, suggesting that the cold, rainy British weather has anything in common with the tropics is absolutely laughable! And then your suggesting that so-called "wintry" Florida, with its swamps, alligators, orange groves etc. is semi-arctic just because of an occasional cold day every year - unbelievable ! l) l) l) l)
Plus, I also have lived extensively in Austria which routinely has snow in winter and is bloody cold at times. So I am perfectly well aware what "cold" means. And I did NOT state that fire was ever needed below zero ceslsius, just slightly more advanced survival skills re making shelters for sleeping in, that's all.
Wow, I'm sorry to have ever gotten you so angry Tyler!
Survival techniques needed below about zero degrees celsius is what I read and what I was referring to - not dampness (btw -it's pretty damp in Florida too - but I've never been to England). If you have never lived in Florida or Texas and tried to sleep outdoors during a night where it got below freezing - perhaps you shouldn't be so judgmental. The point was that those are the WARMEST places in my country and they still get below the temperature you stated. 99 % of the country is vastly colder.
Did you sleep outdoors naked in Austria during the winter then?
If you are going to be so angry though, perhaps we should stop the conversation - I mean this is all in fun and doesn't really matter all that much. If it's not going to be good-natured, why bother?
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No, but I've slept in the outdoors during autumn and early spring with just summer clothes on(shorts etc.), sometimes with drizzle, and have also tented through the night in snow-filled conditions in leaky tents which let all the water in, with me just having a leaky, very thin sleeping bag -once I even had such strong winds that the tent collapsed, then flew away from me when I tried to set it up again. Not being an arctic explorer, I have not yet tried the survival-shelter in a hole which I mentioned earlier, but given past descriptions by other people, it would be a doddle to survive.
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But living outdoors through winter would necessitate survival training.... except maybe for Zi! LOL
I think other things in my life prepared me like survival training, so I need less survival training now. I never said I spent a whole cold winter outdoors, just that I was thinking of doing it this winter.
In my view most people who have problems with warm climates just eat TOO much food. That's simply
When I was passing out from the heat I was veg and eating almost exclusively fully vine ripened not been refrigerated very local fruit (not much) and reverse osmosis water. I was getting so worn out that I tried coffee (I've never been a coffee person or one for hot drinks to get an effect), but it didn't wake me up. My tsc level was very low no matter what at the time, I'm not sure about the rest. I think my adrenals and my pancreas were affected (or got low blood sugar level) a lot then. I had some symptoms of advanced adrenal disease, but didn't know that's what they were and didn't get it checked out. Of course most people said I looked so healthy. I was young.
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You're not suggesting Tyler that it's possible to survive through a bad winter naked in Austria by digging holes are you? I honestly didn't know that was possible. I don't know how cold it gets in Autumn and Spring in Austria - is that below freezing? What are the low temps in Austria in the winter? I've never been there or read about that place. In North Dakota it can get to (-20 F). Where I grew up in NY the temperatures in winter were commonly 10 - 20 F which is significantly below 0 C and in other parts of the state it's commonly much, much colder. As a child I spent all day outside in winter and in the snow playing without much clothes on - but I couldn't imagine sleeping in that naked - especially without snow and with frozen ground - then there would be no way to dig a hole.
I think I get the point you are trying to make though - that we can tolerate more cold than usually believed.
I still think that we are better adapted for the heat than the cold and that it is unlikely that most people even if eating well that would survive without clothing or fire all that much below freezing temperatures. Are there any places that humans wouldn't survive the heat on earth as long as there was water and a food supply?
Well, I certainly learned something during this conversation and some things to experiment with.
Hey Zi - you said that you have always been better in the cold than than the heat didn't you? Was that also true when you were a sproutarian? Would you say that there was a certain amount of fat that changed your ability to tolerate the cold significantly?
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I think other things in my life prepared me like survival training, so I need less survival training now. I never said I spent a whole cold winter outdoors, just that I was thinking of doing it this winter.
When I was passing out from the heat I was veg and eating almost exclusively fully vine ripened not been refrigerated very local fruit (not much) and reverse osmosis water. I was getting so worn out that I tried coffee (I've never been a coffee person or one for hot drinks to get an effect), but it didn't wake me up. My tsc level was very low no matter what at the time, I'm not sure about the rest. I think my adrenals and my pancreas were affected (or got low blood sugar level) a lot then. I had some symptoms of advanced adrenal disease, but didn't know that's what they were and didn't get it checked out. Of course most people said I looked so healthy. I was young.
I was just joking about you being able to tolerate anything Zi. :D
Do you think that you are able to tolerate hot weather now that you have been eating raw fat for awhile too Zi?
When I eat well I seem to be able to tolerate both cold and heat better.
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I doubt that humans could survive for long in the Atacama desert, for example, given the heat, the lack of water....
As regards Austria, the temperature varies rapidly:- in summer, it's very hot indeed, in winter, it usually snows and is very cold, with rain otherwise occurring often. Point is, that people could still survive all that without any fire, they just require shelters, furs etc.
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Of course people can't survive the desert Tyler - that's why I said with water and a food supply.
Yes, I understand clothes and shelter..... much below freezing..... that's what we need. Agreed.
No other animal uses the skins of other animals do they? There are some animals that instinctively make nests - but I consider that to be a different order than building with tools. We aren't even much designed for digging holes without tools. We also don't slow down our metabolisms dramatically like bears do.
If we were living like plain old animals without using our advanced intelligence and verbal communication skills - I am still convinced that it is heat rather than cold we are most adapted to.
But I sure like the idea of how much more cold we can tolerate than I thought previously. I really in the next couple of years would like to try out Zi's fat building strategy and to try to pretty much live outdoors even in the cold nights. What a hoot that could be!
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you have always been better in the cold than than the heat didn't you? Was that also true when you were a sproutarian? Would you say that there was a certain amount of fat that changed your ability to tolerate the cold significantly?
No, not as Sproutarian. I was very sensitive to cold then, but any amount of heat fine.
Absolutely! If practically all I eat is raw fat, an all raw diet, I can tolerate just about any temperature. I still as all above prefer cold.
Do you think that you are able to tolerate hot weather now that you have been eating raw fat for awhile too ..?
Yes, I know. Fat helps me tolerate. Doesn't change my preference though from what I see.
When I eat well I seem to be able to tolerate both cold and heat better.
Me too. But cold is very nice. Heat? Everything is beautiful, but heat is not as nice.
Point is, that people could still survive all that without any fire, they just require shelters, furs etc.
I was just explaining that in person today, as my partner keeps saying (not word for word) every human needs indoor heating installed. Had to agree with me when I finally said maybe government wants us nice and cozy with air conditioning and heating so we sit down and take in our tv programming. How are you going to convince an adult of your programming that cold is impossible while they are having real experience in a snow cave year after year?
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Heating as a device to make us watch more television?! Hmmmm. Never quite thought of that one. ;) I'll need to chew on that a bit.
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.. a device to make us watch more television?! Hmmmm. Never quite thought of that one. ;) I'll need to chew on that a bit.
Whatever will get the point across.
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What's your perception of what the "the point" and "programming" are Zi?
In Hawaii and Puerto Rico, because of the mild weather, usually there is no heat or air conditioning. Some houses in the tropics do have air-conditioning - but usually to keep things from rotting away due to the high humidity.
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The whole point is to point out that our palaeo HG ancestors did not need fire, but could use furs or survival shelters etc. etc. in order to survive.
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The whole point is to point out that our palaeo HG ancestors did not need fire, but could use furs or survival shelters etc. etc. in order to survive.
Ok - that's fair. They did. We can live that way and other ways where they lived. It's a different question I think - but a really great point that is pertinent to the forum and which brings up really useful information and discussions..... like how you and Zi have changed in respect to the cold on your diets.
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Iguana, the reason why the out of africa is quasi-creationist is because it tries to claim a common ancestor for all humans that is far too recent. There was that bizarre, "african eve" claim for example, which clearly was an attempt to fashion a quasi-Biblical "adam-and-eve" type story to human evolution. The Out of africa theory is also quasi-creationist since its proponents have been trying to claim falsely, for decades, that modern humans are not descended from apemen nor interbred with them, yet current evidence shows that modern humans share DNA with at least 2 apemen types, with indications of other types of apemen DNA being present as well. So it seems that our DNA came from all over the "Old World" not just Africa.
Then there's the overly simplistic diagram you showed. For example, some evidence has come to light, suggesting that modern East Asians may be partially descended from advanced types of homo erectus. So the old, silly notion that Neanderthals and Homo Erectus were "behind" modern humans, in an evolutionary sense, must be wrong. And that silly notion was directly derived from the Out of Africa theory which wrongly claimed, for decades, that Neanderthals and Homo Erectus were so stupid, lacking culture or the ability to talk that it was supposedly impossible for modern humans to have interbred with them. Now that various different kinds of "apeman" DNA have been found in modern humans and more evidence has come to light showing that Neanderthals etc. were on a par with modern humans, the OA theory is increasingly showing flaws.
Ok, I read a bit on this subject (various articles on Wikipedia and for example this page http://www.actionbioscience.org/evolution/johanson.html (http://www.actionbioscience.org/evolution/johanson.html) explaining both theories and this one http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110718085329.htm (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110718085329.htm) which comes to an opposite conclusion) and now I understand better what you mean. I had the wrong idea that the so called “Out of Africa” theory was about the global origin of both sub-species, Sapiens and Neanderthals, thus I didn’t understand because Neanderthals are also supposed of African origin:
Neanderthals, whose ancestors left Africa about 400,000 to 800,000 years ago, evolved in what is now mainly France, Spain, Germany and Russia, and are thought to have lived until about 30,000 years ago. Meanwhile, early modern humans left Africa about 80,000 to 50,000 years ago. The question on everyone's mind has always been whether the physically stronger Neanderthals, who possessed the gene for language and may have played the flute, were a separate species or could have interbred with modern humans. The answer is yes, the two lived in close association. (from 2nd link above)
But, according to what I read elsewhere, modern humans carry no more than a very small amount of Neanderthal genes in their DNA (1 to 4%, as I mentioned before) - or none at all as is doubtlessly the case of Africans.
I feel that both theories are neither necessarily incompatible nor conflicting in a binary way, because they are neither dogmatically rigid nor monolithic.
Anyway, as Neanderthals have their origin in Africa too, what is the argument? They had populated Europe for a longer period of time and thus should have been better adapted to cold climate, I suppose? Ok, but what does it change if 3 generations only suffice for an adaptation to the cold, as you wrote?
The issue of adaptation is simple:- we would only need 3 generations or so for most people to adapt to the cold, with quite a number now already adapted, provided they ate raw foods like the Inuit and understood simple survival tips like living in igloos or survival shelters in the snow etc.
So, is the issue about some interbreeding or no interbreeding at all between Sapiens and Neanderthals relevant concerning resistance to cold? Who cares, except anthropologists?
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(…) a really great point that is pertinent to the forum and which brings up really useful information and discussions..... like how you and Zi have changed in respect to the cold on your diets.
According to my personal experience, resistance to the cold mainly depends on habituation. When working outside the whole year, I was withstanding the cold very well, whether I was still eating cooked food or already on 100% raw. On the contrary, if I stay in a heated house working on my computer most of the day, I become very sensitive to the cold whatever my diet is.
The difference is that on cooked food and dairy I had 4 to 5 months a year a cold (and even sometimes a stinking one while living in a tropical country, which tend to show that colds are detox) while now I very seldom catch one.
Obese people are generally very resistant to cold since their under-skin fat shields them – and the best way to become obese is to eat cooked food! But they can’t stand the heat. >D
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My experience is different than yours Iguana as every time (which has been many) I went from high raw to all raw my cold and heat tolerance got exponentially better. I always felt that it was because it took so much of my energy to digest cooked foods. Many times when eating cooked food I would notice how I got colder afterward when that did not happen with raw food. My size didn't seem to have much to do with this tolerance but I understand what you are saying about fat being an insulator. Maybe that's just my system - but it's interesting that others have had that experience too.
The tropics means where the earth does not freeze. Even if we run hot or cold, whether uncomfortable or not, the heat in the tropics does not kill humans like the the cold in cold places does. The discussions are pertinent to the theme of the forum about how people here got better at dealing with the cold AND I'm still don't think that it makes the point that we are adapted to the cold. Maybe we can survive somewhat out of our ideal adaptation range though - more than I expected according to Zi's experiences, but we are still better suited physically to warmer climes than to cold ones. The loss of fur, standing up, and sweating I think still has precedence in terms of physical adaptation over survival techniques. You don't need any techniques when it is above freezing.
I like the conversation though. Doesn't Zi's experience arouse curiosity?
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The difference is that on cooked food and dairy I had 4 to 5 months a year a cold (and even sometimes a stinking one while living in a tropical country, which tend to show that colds are detox) while now I very seldom catch one.
Obese people are generally very resistant to cold since their under-skin
No fat in the skin and we can't tolerate heat or cold.
I ate cooked egg and cooked meat and I got seven to eight month colds every year till in a four month period a doctor gave me two injections and a lodge member drilled close to ten holes into my teeth and filled them with mercury amalgam and I was in a house fire suffered from a great deal of smoke inhalation and went untreated. I got a bunch of symptoms at the close of those four months, but they were all ignored and the doctor proclaimed that one of the injections cured me of my colds and that I was now well because of it.
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I can't remember the last time I got a cold.
You sure have had some wild experiences Zi!
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I can't remember the last time I got a cold.
Same here. The last few years before going raw i never had one either. My diet was low carb lots of animal product and lots of salads. I did used to get a sore throat a few times a year on cooked. No other symptons just inflammation of my throat. Never took antibiotics for it off course. Thats gone since going (90%) raw.
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Iguana, whether the Neanderthals originally came from Africa 800,000 years ago or not, is irrelevant. The point is that the multiregional hypothesis states that we are all ultimately descended from homo erectus populations, most of which left Africa c. 2 million years ago, and which then, independently, evolved to homo sapiens status. Intermixing, here and there, prevented speciation, of course. But the point is that this means that we are all descended from various apemen, not just the Neanderthals, and did not suddenly appear in Africa c. 70,000 years ago.
As for the issue of cold adaptation, it's clear, given Neanderthal body structure, that they were more adapted to cold than any other hominid type.
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Absolutely! If practically all I eat is raw fat, an all raw diet, I can tolerate just about any temperature. I still as all above prefer cold.
You don't get adrenal problems on such a zero carb diet?
Löwenherz
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..But, according to what I read elsewhere, modern humans carry no more than a very small amount of Neanderthal genes in their DNA (1 to 4%, as I mentioned before) - or none at all as is doubtlessly the case of Africans.
Maybe there are some exceptions? After reading his last posts I'm pretty sure that Tyler did not descend from Neanderthals. He IS a Neanderthal!
Re malaria and raw foodists/instinctos: Do you know falciparum cases personally?
Löwenherz
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1. ;D But Neanderthals were in no way dumb brutes! (I don't mean TD is one ;) )
2. Not personally but I heard/read that 2 persons died of falciparum because they refused to take medicine, against what GCB advises. One stubbornly stuck to a fast and the other was a girl who was totally desperate following a failed love story.
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..I have been completely AV style pd, and like how that works a lot. How about you?
I tried the AV style PD too in 2003 and 2004 but raw dairy is as disastrous for my body as cooked dairy.
My absolute favourite is bison meat + backfat. Unfortunately it's nearly impossible to get 100% grass-fed bison in Europe..
Löwenherz
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You don't get adrenal problems on such a zero carb diet?
I have had extreme adrenal problems almost all my life. Having next to zero carbs, all raw, and combining my little bit of unripe fruit and unheated honey with usually grassfed butter raw cultured lots of it at a time for a fat together in a plate definitely makes my adrenals feel the best ever, but maybe the green juice other parts of the day does some and combining lots of raw fat with the usually white meat raw.