Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Exercise / Bodybuilding => Topic started by: Guittarman03 on April 21, 2009, 08:10:29 am
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This thread is dedicated primarily to the discussion of high-intensity strength training and muscle building. I'd like to hear from the long distance/endurance side of the house as well, but I don't want the convo to break down into a debate between the marathoners and gym rats.
That said, I go back and forth between heavy weights (heavy for me that is) and lighter weight, fully body, high intensity exercises (crossfit type stuff). I lean more towards weight lifting though, as I'm generally trying to add muscle mass - losing excess fat is a piece of cake on a very low carb diet.
I posted the poll b/c I'm curious what kind of exercise you guys do, to see how many others have the same fitness goals as myself, and to share different thoughts and strategies on how best to to achieve those goals. I'll skip talking about what to do in the gym, as there is already tons of info out there on the what why and how. Instead I'd like to talk about diet and rest.
Rest: Has anyone noticed a decrease in recovery time with RP? I've gotten to the point where I notice my biggest gains are if I work the same muscle groups rather close together, sometimes consecutive days. I know it's said that you should only work each muscle group once a week, but I notice slow and sporadic gains when I try that. I don't think I've ever tried something like upper body 3 or 4 days in a row though. Anyone ever try that? What are your experiences with varying amt of rest between workouts?
Food: Here is where there seems to really be some conflicting advice, esp with low carb paleo type eating. The debate seems to center around muscle glycogen and insulin. I'd like to share some things I've read about insulin and human growth hormone, as well as a strategy for maximizing gains (I just started doing this), and see if anyone has tried it before or can share more info.
So when we work out we spend muscle glycogen for immediate energy. HGH is secreted and ends up primarily in the muscles being worked, sometime at the end of the workout to an hour after. Now conventional wisdom says that at the end of a lifting session, it is necessary to immediately replenish muscle glycogen and spike insulin to put the body into an anabolic state (taking in and storing nutrients), thus the protein smoothies and whatnot.
But I've been reading that insulin actually reduces HGH, and if you eat sugars/carbs before or after lifting, you can basically kiss your growth hormone goodbye. Instead, it's better to work out on a completly empty stomach, not eat afterwards until you get hungry, and when you are hungry to eat protein and fat but no carbs. The idea is to keep your body in ketosis: a state where you burn fat instead of sugar to obtain energy. Incidentally it seems very in line with a paleo mindset to go hunting (exercise) because you are hungry and on an empty stomach.
So the idea is to put you body into ketosis for 5-6 days per week, and then to carb load for 24-36 hours. In this period you want to reduce your fat intake while upping the carbs. The idea is this period will rapidly increase muscle glycogen for the following week (which I buy), the insuline spike will cause your body to store protein and begin muscle synthesis (which I also buy), and that despite insulin's generally negative effects on HGH, that your levels will actually surge (which I might not be able to buy w/o a good explanation). And because you are doing that for only 1 day, you aren't losing your adaptation for ketone metabolism (just as it takes a week or so to adapt to fat burning instead of carb burning, it takes a week or so to reverse the process).
Some will say, "yes, but what about glycogen replacement." Well, I've also been reading that there are multiple pathways the body can utilize for producing glucose when necessary, but only 1 pathway (insulin) for decreasing it. Thus, our bodies can become very adept at producing all the glucose we need even in the absence of dietary sugars. As a side note, the only time I get light-headed from standing too quickly is when I have been eating more carbs than usual (I'm already pretty low carb). Anyways, what it means is my blood sugars never really get that low on low carb, even though they can get low when on a higher carb diet.
So I've just started doing this to see if it actually works. I would always eat some kind of sugars before, or at least after the gym to hit that insulin spike. Now I realize it's possible I was shooting myself in the foot. The last few days I've been to the gym on an empty stomach. Warming up was a bit more difficult/longer the first couple days, but not so bad today. Like I said, I usually sugar spike myself before the gym. I'm going to limit my carbs even more during the week, and then splurge for that one day on carbs to see if this works.
Anyone ever heard of this before? Tried it before? Have info to add?
-Jason
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I workout on an empty stomach in the morning, every other day, and I eat my meal (fat and meat) one or two hours after when I am hungry.
My strength training is based on heavy lifts : deadlift, squat, weighted dips and pull up, and sprints. 45-50 minutes. 3-5 sets of 5 reps.
I recover faster than when I was lowcarbing.
I really don't bother about carbs, insulin, glycogen, etc. I have much more energy with zero carbs. Period. And I don't believe one need carbs for high-intensity training or muscle building.
I am putting more and more muscle on my carcass, for the first time in my life.
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I work out on an empty stomach. I used to be into weight training but now I do kettlebells (well that's still weights but it's more full body style) and bjj. I'm gonna keep at it and see if I can put on the size I had before from lifting weights with this training. In all honesty I'm probably stronger in real life strength, as I spend much of my time wrestling with 200+lb men, and the kettlebell lifts involve more real life lifting situations than isolated dumbell and barbell lifts. But I'm thinner than I was when I was on SAD and lifting barbells and dumbells.
I think I was between 165-170 lbs then and am between 155-160 lbs now. But it seems like I was more than 10 lbs heavier than when I think back to it, I felt much bigger. People would say that it looked like I lifted weights, but now people only say that when I have some kind of muscle shirt on that is tight around my arms.
So you're saying you're going to try eating zero carb for about 6 out of 7 days a week and then eating lots of carbs on the 7th day? I might try that but I don't know if I want to go without any carbs at all for most of the week, I usually eat a little bit of fruit every day.
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Update on how it's going. Haven't carb loaded yet, but I've been zero carb every day since my original post (except for last night where I had about 15g carbs with 1.5 lb of meat - honey).
I work out on a completely empty stomach now with no problems at all (usually I haven't eaten anything in at least 9 hours). I have more energy. In fact, I've gotten bigger and stronger as of the last week. No problems with recovery. I'm actually doing so well that if it continues, I might not even bother with the carb loading phase.
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Jason,
I'm interested to read about your progress. Are you a 1x per day eater?
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Not usually, but I can see how it could be a good thing. I tend to eat big for supper (about 1.5lb meat @ 8-9PM), and then play it by ear during the day. Usually get 0.5-1lb in for 'brunch' about 10ish. Occasionally I won't eat hardly anything until supper. I can see a correlation between harder workouts and resting fewer days with a bigger appetite in the morning.
I read an interesting idea that some of the old-school bodybuilders used to do. They would get in a good workout, go grab a small snack of steak and eggs, wait an hour, and then hit the gym again. I'm kind of doing this today as it's been a pretty physical day and I haven't had much time for food, except a few bites of steak.
My gains seem to have stalled the last couple days, but I haven't lost anything. But muscle building (for me) is a long term kind of process. I'll give it a few weeks, and if I'm still stalled, try carb loading for a day.
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It seems that I really need to eat a lot of calories, more than what my appetite dictates to me, if I want to gain.
Yesterday for instance, I eat 650g of pemmican = 3000Kcal from fat (in 3 meals) and my weight was the same this morning. I did not workout that day, so I did not spend a lot of energy.
I have tried one meal a day, but that's definitively too much food in one sitting for me, and not enough caloriesfor the day to gain...
Not usually, but I can see how it could be a good thing. I tend to eat big for supper (about 1.5lb meat @ 8-9PM), and then play it by ear during the day. Usually get 0.5-1lb in for 'brunch' about 10ish. Occasionally I won't eat hardly anything until supper. I can see a correlation between harder workouts and resting fewer days with a bigger appetite in the morning.
I read an interesting idea that some of the old-school bodybuilders used to do. They would get in a good workout, go grab a small snack of steak and eggs, wait an hour, and then hit the gym again. I'm kind of doing this today as it's been a pretty physical day and I haven't had much time for food, except a few bites of steak.
My gains seem to have stalled the last couple days, but I haven't lost anything. But muscle building (for me) is a long term kind of process. I'll give it a few weeks, and if I'm still stalled, try carb loading for a day.
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I was just thinking that as protein requires energy to be digested and assimilated, it maybe better to reduce the amount a protein, in order for the body to spend less energy on digestion (of protein), and have more energy available to grow.
What are your thought on that ??
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If you want to get the fake inflated muscle look. Eat carbs with fat. The fat will be deposited in your muscles. If you want 'pound for pound' type body, cut the carbs completely or leave a few hours in between.
Is anyone else here getting stronger but not gaining weight? (or very small gains)
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I was just thinking that as protein requires energy to be digested and assimilated, it maybe better to reduce the amount a protein, in order for the body to spend less energy on digestion (of protein), and have more energy available to grow.
What are your thought on that ??
It's funny you ask that, b/c there are times that I have very much reduced my caloric intake and expected that I'd probably loose muscle mass, only to gain some. My best guess is that my body is using whatever protein is in my digestive tract or maybe elsewhere in the body to build muscle instead of digest food? I know digestion takes a lot of energy, which means less energy for muscle building, but of course you've got to have plenty of raw materials to build with.
I'd like to experiment with some intermittent fasting, but can't quite bring myself to do it.
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I am on zerocarb, and I want real muscles! >D
And I need to gain weight (only 70Kg for 1m82 for now)
If you want to get the fake inflated muscle look. Eat carbs with fat. The fat will be deposited in your muscles. If you want 'pound for pound' type body, cut the carbs completely or leave a few hours in between.
Is anyone else here getting stronger but not gaining weight? (or very small gains)
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You probably reduced also your protein intake as well.
The body seems to be very efficient to spare protein as it is so vital for him.
However, I find that it is too easy for me to eat too much protein on a carnivorous diet. I am currently experimenting different ration of fat/protein, to see what works best to gain muscles.
It's funny you ask that, b/c there are times that I have very much reduced my caloric intake and expected that I'd probably loose muscle mass, only to gain some. My best guess is that my body is using whatever protein is in my digestive tract or maybe elsewhere in the body to build muscle instead of digest food? I know digestion takes a lot of energy, which means less energy for muscle building, but of course you've got to have plenty of raw materials to build with.
I'd like to experiment with some intermittent fasting, but can't quite bring myself to do it.
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one has to remember that an extreme amount of muscle mass with very low bodyfat is neither paleo, nor healthy. Once developing a certain amount of muscle carb loading and boosting insulin might be needed to break a 'plateau' so to speak, but this doesn't mean it's actually beneficial to anything except bigorexics. That being said, I have lifted weights and made gains fairly fine on zero carb.
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I agree about the super lean and bulked look, it doesn't appeal to me anymore and obviously isn't paleo.
I find myself not at all interested in looking like this:
(http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/103727main_bodybuilder.jpg)
and now that I watch and train martial arts, I like the way athletes like these look:
(http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00422/penn_280x390_422319a.jpg)
(http://sheridansunonline.sheridanc.on.ca/apr_02_2009/images/silva.jpg)
and the funny thing is that in paleo type activities the latter, although much smaller, would probably perform better. Those huge muscles, first of all, require massive nutrition and those guys would have little stamina when they're burning oxygen in those things. Second, most bodybuilders do exercises that don't mimic natural movements, so that their true strength in real motions is less than their weight lifting strength potential. And lastly, since fighting and hunting are the most paleo sports and the best fighters usually don't look like bodybuilders, it only reasons that those physiques are not optimal.
To me bodybuilders are like women who get enormous (bigger than double D) breast implants. There is a fringe part of society that likes things to excess, muscles are good, so the bigger the better. But there is a point, with muscles and breasts and anything else, where most people would find them too big and not attractive anymore. I'd imagine paleo people would not be attracted to bodybuilders having not been culturally accustomed to thinking that's something you want to attain.
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I agree. I have no desire to look like that dude in the first picture, but at 5'10", 168lb, about 10% body fat (abs just showing through), I think there's room to put on maybe 10-15 lbs of muscle.
Well I have to confess, I broke my diet last night to do some drinking. I'm not really all that big on it, always sets me back a day or so; but when in Rome...
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These guys look 'fit' to me. Have you noticed that most boxers have amzing facial structures? no coincidence there.
(http://images.sportinglife.com/07/06/330/RickyHatton2_368743.jpg)
Rick Hatton
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_JjCu_PpH8dY/SGWR4vHFHxI/AAAAAAAAL98/uqaJ7x0mlO8/s1600/weighin_manny_pacquiao_diaz5.jpg)
David Diaz and Manny Pacquiao
(http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/ffximage/2007/08/08/choc.jpg)
Anthony Mundine
And most of these guys don't even look muscley with a T Shirt on whereas the BBer's look stupid.
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I agree. I have no desire to look like that dude in the first picture, but at 5'10", 168lb, about 10% body fat
Well you're bigger than I am then. I'm around 5'9'' and between 155 and 160. It would be nice to put on some muscle but I'm not willing to put any more effort into it than I already am at this point. I go to the gym and stay in shape, learn something and have a good time. I probably just need to eat a little more.
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THe guy in the 3rd photo is 5'11 and 160 pounds and you want to get even bigger (20 pounds) than him?
(http://s.bebo.com/app-image/7940512234/5411656627/PROFILE/i.quizzaz.com/img/q/u/08/06/10/anthony-mundine.jpg)
I think you are aiming for the unnatural. Paleoman are strong, light and useful not bulging, weak and useless.
We need to rethink what is normal.
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I think everyone's body has a different shape and for some 160 would be skeleton thin and others too heavy. For myself, I'm pretty thin now and wouldn't be imo "too big" until I started to pass maybe 190 lbs, but for some guys >200 lbs is a natural weight.
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I tend to think that paleo man had developed muscles, was light and defined but was not shredded or ripped. Even those pictures of David Diaz and Manny Pacquiao don't look that natural to me. Today most modern sportsmen do bicep curls, squats, bench pressing and other exercises primarily aimed at producing muscle hypertrophy as part of their training. Bodybuilders do these exercises combined with overly excessive calorie diets and sometimes supplements which gives them enormous size. Sprinting, wrestling, throwing and construction type work was probably the type of anaerobic exercise paleo man did. I don't think they did exercises like modern weight lifting where you reach the absolute maximum of your anaerobic threshold. Despite creating good looking physiques these exercises could be damaging imo. I do lift weights on and off, but honestly I only lift weight to try and look good as vain as that may sound.
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I would suggest anyone interested in natural exercises to look into kettlebells. There are no machines or balanced bars stabilizing the weight, so you can only lift what your weakest link can lift, not the other way around with modern weight training where if you have a weak link you simply bypass it. Examples of this are wrist wraps or hooks for bypassing grip strength failure, belts for bypassing lower back strength failure, bar carriages like Smith Machines for bypassing stabilization strength failure. Modern weight training is designed to increase the strength and size of individual muscles to the abject separation of them as a bodily whole.
I love kettlebells, but even more natural would be to do bodyweight exercises and lifting objects that you might be able to find in nature. I've seen guys running in groups before with a heavy log over their heads passing it back and forth between arms. They were all holding parts of the same heavy log. With partners you can accomplish anything. I find grappling to be highly rewarding and strength building.
Also I find myself still intrigued by the strongman competitions on TV sometimes because they lift more natural objects. Large stones, anchors, logs with grips put in. And they usually aren't as cut as bodybuilders, which shows that the extreme low body fat takes away from strength.
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Kettlebells intimidate me because of the jerky motions that go with those movements. Not like anything I've ever done before. They seem to give such great and quick results to the people who use them though.
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I like to do handstand pushups, pullups, inverted pullups, snatches (lifting a weighted bar from the ground to above your head), weighted lunges, qutie a bit of work with dumbells (usually w/o a bench), and twirling a metal pipe like a bow staff. These all seem to be functional and natural exercises that mimick things we might do in a paleo sense. In addition I do incline press and squats (for the hypertrophic response) and bicep curls to get bigger arms -- yes, I know this is somewhat vain, but...
I originally started raw paleo b/c I came across it when searching for more knowledge about diet and nutrition with the goal of getting better results in the gym. Along the way I've learned about optimal nutrition, a little about anthropology and biochemistry; how to live a long and healthy life - which is far more important that broad shoulders and large biceps.
But nonetheless, I do enjoy getting stronger and bigger, experimenting and learning how to maximize athletic performance.
Really though, a big part of this is that I work with people who scoff, and I tell people about my diet in general. It's alot harder to scoff when you are obviously in-shape, and since I never really was sick or overweight or anything, gaining is just one of those things that - speaking for itself - says, if RP was that unhealthy, if you were really that prone to get sick, then how have I put on 15 lb of muscle since I started? I do like talking w/ people (who are interested) about my diet; and like it or not, the halo effect gives a level of credence to what you're saying.
At any rate, I appreciate the responses.
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That's true that it makes you seem more 'credible' to the lay person, but they aren't basing credibility on anything that in reality is credible. Having a muscular physique does not mean you are healthy, nor does it require a healthy diet to achieve.
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I like to do handstand pushups, pullups, inverted pullups, snatches (lifting a weighted bar from the ground to above your head), weighted lunges, qutie a bit of work with dumbells (usually w/o a bench), and twirling a metal pipe like a bow staff. These all seem to be functional and natural exercises that mimick things we might do in a paleo sense. In addition I do incline press and squats (for the hypertrophic response) and bicep curls to get bigger arms -- yes, I know this is somewhat vain, but...
when or if paleo man did these exercises such as lifting things, I doubt they did them how bodybuilders do them today. I don't think they would have done sets of a few reps until they reach complete failure. Even natural exercises such as body weight exercises can be adjusted to be done unnaturally.
They would have lifted things they could lift, not with ease, but without absolutely exhausting themselves, or they would lift things working together. They did exercise that maintained a functional well developed lean physique but did not do things that would stimulate a constant increase in muscle size.
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Paleolithic man would of been muscular without exercise. Bones dug up showed there were built stronger than us, taller and with bigger brains.
Invisible, you seem incredibly wise for a 20 year old!
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when or if paleo man did these exercises such as lifting things, I doubt they did them how bodybuilders do them today. I don't think they would have done sets of a few reps until they reach complete failure. Even natural exercises such as body weight exercises can be adjusted to be done unnaturally.
They would have lifted things they could lift, not with ease, but without absolutely exhausting themselves, or they would lift things working together. They did exercise that maintained a functional well developed lean physique but did not do things that would stimulate a constant increase in muscle size.
I've gotta disagree. Think of treking, running with, and throwing a spear. They would have done that motion repetitively to get good at it, and would have been strong to carry and throw as heavy one as possible to do more damage to the large game we hunted (applicable to clubs and bowstaff as well). Also, think about taking down a 1000lb animal. You're gonna have to transport that meat back to camp somehow. Or what about having to climb up or down a cliff. You would be doing set after set of "pull-ups," depending on the cliff (and where you live). Or maybe lets say one of your buddies gets injured and you have to carry them. Maybe solo carry them on your back, maybe a 2 person carry, depends on the situation. Also, like most mammals do, I'm sure we would have wrestled plenty in our adolescent years, esp since that was before the advent of modern sports. Wrestling makes you strong, and gives you a muscular build.
And considering the thicker and stronger bones, it seems likely that paleo men did the types of exercises that would give you good, solid muscle. Why would they have had those bones and that build if it wasn't useful to their survival? And muscle deteriorates quickly if not being used. Again, the bones support the idea that strong muscles were used often by our paleo ancestors.
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I agree that paleo man did do such exercises as you described. But these exercises aren't actually going to build huge physiques. Carrying a man on your back, carrying meat, running with a spear is not that difficult to do, but to do it over long distances is - but this type of exercise doesn't build bodybuilding physiques like extremely intense short burst muscle hypertrophy exercises do. Paleo man did exercises that combined the anaerobic and aerobic systems. Climbing up a cliff was probably done at times, but very rarely - not done every second day like a training regime. Wrestling can give you a fit muscular build, but wrestling alone won't achieve a bodybuilder type physique (when i say bodybuilders physique i don't particularly mean size, i mean body fat/muscle proportion).
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My very simple goal is to look good enough to be attractive to the chicks. He he he.
Any recommendations?
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My very simple goal is to look good enough to be attractive to the chicks. He he he.
Any recommendations?
If it's a bodybuilders physique you are after unless you are a professional bodybuilder, these general guildines work for basic goals. Lift, eat, sleep.
Lift heavy weights - bicep curls, squats, cable pull downs, bench press, crunches
Eat - If you want to gain muscle eat a bit more than you burn. If you want to cut fat, eat a bit less than you burn. So once you reach the size you want, just eat maintenance calories.
Sleep alot.
Invisible, you seem incredibly wise for a 20 year old!
Thanks mate. I've done lot's of reading, and practice on myself in regards to diet.
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I agree with invisible. Any completely exhaustive exercise paleo people would have done would be too infrequent to keep up any kind of bodybuilder physique. Those bodies require neolithic maintenance.
I've seen some skinny tribal guys, and some muscular ones. I think the average person then would have been more naturally muscular from natural selection than today, these days there is almost no selective pressure for physical fitness since we live in a non-physical world in terms of work and attaining resources.
I also believe that we can improve beyond paleo conditions in life. The foods people eat now aren't an improvement, but maybe some exercises, some streching, taking care of the body with massage and spinal alignment medicine and putting ribs back into place, this seems like an improvement to me. Even if you eat a paleo diet and do paleo exercise you could mess up some of your bones or muscle groups and it's not paleo to know how to fix that, but I think it's good nonetheless.
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All the evidence indicates that Palaeolithic peoples had much stronger bones and muscle-mass. This may not have been on the same scale as modern bodybuilders but their strength was of a more functional nature, and therefore more useful. I mean even the more sedentary Ancient Greeks in their triremes could easily outperform modern day Olympic rowers so imagine how much more effective Palaeo peoples would have been.
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Update:
After about a week or so of pretty much no carbs, my breath started to smell again, so I gave it up. Don't get me wrong tho, I'm still at less than 30-40 grams every day. I gained pretty quickly on zero carb, but then after a few days it kind of leveled out.
So I finally did a carb loading phase. I didn't mean to exactly, but the results were very good. I got in a decent workout, nothing with any big weights, just pullups, incline pushups, twirling a metal pipe (alot), and some basic dumbell exercises. I ate 3/4 pound steak soon after. Then went out for Mexican a few hours later. I had sauted veggies with ribeye, 1/2 a tortilla (homemade!), and a couple beers. Now usually when I drink after a workout I lose size, but I gained overnight. Yes some of this was fat, but a good portion was also muscle.
But then I blew it all by drinking again the next night, and not really sticking to my diet and not getting much sleep the next few days (I was back home w/ family, friends). I think I 1/2 took myself out of keto adaption. Nonetheless, I'm pretty excited to get back on my diet and do a more controlled periodic carb up. I think I'll follow the carb up with a few 0 carb days.
Altho it's gonna be tough, I'm travelling off and on for the next 6 weeks.
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Well I finally did a more controlled carb up. Not as controlled as I should have; I ate too many carbs, and instead of all going to muscle glycogen, some ended up as fat. But I definitely gained a good bit of strength and size.
I'm going to try again either Friday or Sat morning, and make sure to regulate the carb intake a little better. I realize the amount and even type of carbs I'm eating is not entirely paleo. What can I say, I'm a sinner. I tried putting on mass with the low/no carb, but I couldn't really do it as well as I'd hoped.
I think it's probable that when fruits become available - mostly in the fall - we probably ate quite a few carbs in our paleo days. It would be a trigger for storing fat and nutrients for the winter time. Carbs do help you put on fat, that's for sure.
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I think you're looking at muscle gain in a too short term way. To my knowledge you don't gain muscle in a day, and to tell what your diet is doing to your muscle gain would require a bare minimum of several months.
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If you want to get the fake inflated muscle look. Eat carbs with fat. The fat will be deposited in your muscles. If you want 'pound for pound' type body, cut the carbs completely or leave a few hours in between.
Is anyone else here getting stronger but not gaining weight? (or very small gains)
I've been working specifically on improving pull ups for about a month and a half, and I'm up to 4 pull ups, and I've remained at the same weight. I used to get inflated looking when I was eating more honey and fruits, but now I eat barely any fruit, sometimes some berries on a random day, and I feel like I'm still thin but when I actually do movements I feel stronger.
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Bare minimum of several months? What kind of reasoning do you use to arrive at this? When I tried raw vegan (mostly), it didn't take me months to figure out just what it was doing to muscle gain (among other things). It took a week or so.
The nature of a cyclical ketogenic diet is such that it manipulates hormones to cause a quick glycogen supercompensation reaction. The glycogen depleted muscle cells become very insulin sensitive for a 24-48 hour window, where they pack in all the water and glycogen possible - if you feed them correctly. The induced expansion promotes cell division; additionally, a super hydrated state seems to promote anabolism. Hightened insulin drives protein into the cells and promotes protein sythesis. And for some odd reason, even growth hormone surges despite the insulin. This occurs over the course of a couple days. After that short window you immediately go back to eating no or very low carbs, to get back in ketosis - haven't eaten any carbs since Sunday evening.
Now I do realize most of the weight and size was just water and glycogen (my weight has re-stabalized at about 3/4 pounds heavier), and that you can't exactly achieve body recomposition in a few weeks (w/o steriods and other drugs); but ask any trainer and they will tell you that you want to be progressing little by little each week. And there's no doubt, I gained a good bit of strength over those few days - hitting a personal max Monday on quite a few exercises and with better form. I got in a good lower body workout yesterday, and today I have been eating ALOT of steak, at least 2.5 if not 3 lb so far, probably I'll eat more before bed. I have found that repeated hunger and eating throughout the day is a good sign that my cells are happily growing.
I would agree that it could take a couple months of evaluation to determine if this is consistent and reliable, and to achieve some really noticeable differences, but there's no reason you can't make some preliminary observations/judgements on a new routine or program after a few days, especially if it's designed as sort of a shock therapy like this.
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I've been working specifically on improving pull ups for about a month and a half, and I'm up to 4 pull ups, and I've remained at the same weight. I used to get inflated looking when I was eating more honey and fruits, but now I eat barely any fruit, sometimes some berries on a random day, and I feel like I'm still thin but when I actually do movements I feel stronger.
4 pullups is pretty good. Do you ever do pushups? How many can you do?
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4 pullups is pretty good. Do you ever do pushups? How many can you do?
I do pushups once or twice a week, the last time I did them I did up to fifty. I usually do them in sets of 10, and do a different exercise in between sets. This seems to help, because if I tire my arms out on pushups then do some pullups, and go back to pushups, my arms don't feel so exhausted, in fact it's like they have more energy to keep going. I also like to do pushups with rings hanging on a rope from my pullup bar in the garage, they're harder because it works more muscles to maintain the stability. I mostly wanted to focus on pullups for a while because I love climbing things, and I really think the pullups help so that I can have equal arm/leg effort. It's always exciting when I reach that day where I can do one more than before. I suppose I should work on other functions. When I'm playing with my dog I like to crawl around and crouch and jump a lot.
About a month ago I found parkour, which is really really cool because it's about moving through your environment as efficiently as possible. I think it was inspired by seeing hunter/gatherer people move about so easily. It's the kind of movement and speed you would want if you were chasing an animal. Sounds pretty paleo/primal to me. On the American Parkour website (http://www.americanparkour.com) there's a page for beginners, and they have a conditioning routine to get in shape to be able to safely do parkour. It says you should get to the point where you can do 3 rounds of 10-15 pullups and pushups, and 15-25 squats. I'm at the point where I can do that many pushups, so I decided that I need to work on pullups more, and do pushups enough to maintain my current strength.
When I was eating more carbs I would gain more weight, now I seem to stay at a steady weight, and just seem to gain strength rather than size. This is fine for me because I'm more interested in having the functional strength to be able to try this parkour thing (so far all I've been able to practice are landings and rolls). Plain running or jogging is boring, and parkour integrates running, jumping, vaults and climbing for getting around, and I think when I feel confident about it all around, I'll do it enough to have good running exercise. As of now the only workouts besides body weight strength exercises is rock climbing, which seems like a really drawn out strength/muscle endurance kind of work out. It's fun though. Oh, and jungle gyms are fun too.
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Also, I've been trying a short intermittent fast in the morning before my workout, and then waiting an hour after to eat, for the whole growth hormone thing, and so far I feel pretty good. I love working out on an empty stomach too because as soon as I'm really into the workout the hunger pangs are gone, but I feel so much more awake and lively because my body isn't having to use energy for digestion.
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Parkour is a pretty cool way of exercising, some of those guys do some crazy cool stuff. I know what you mean about working on an empty stomach. It kind of sucks at first, but then you've got all this free energy once your body kicks the fat metabolism in high gear.
I figure after a few more years of weights, I'll start focusing more on gymnastics / parkour / crossfit type stuff, tho I do a little of these about once a week.
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Bare minimum of several months? What kind of reasoning do you use to arrive at this?
My experience with bodybuilding in high school and early college was that I would gain muscle quite a bit after the exercise. The first couple of days after a hard workout you are weaker as your muscles are a bit broken down and going through repairs. Should these repairs be allowed to complete with proper rest and nutrition the muscles will be stronger for the next time. You could not get stronger within a week after a workout.
You could however get better lifting technique and therefore be stronger in the practical sense. When I started with kettle bells I was able to do some lifts the second day I couldn't the first day just because of technique.
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I dunno guys don't you think there was guys who wanted to test their strength and pick up bigger and bigger rocks or logs or whatever they came up with. I can imagine doing this thousands of years ago. In fact I do it now in a world where I don't actually need to lift anything except the phone to order my pizza. Other than hunting eating sex and hut making how would I have entertained myself back when there was no boob toobs and malls to wander around lol.
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If you had a lot of security in your survival and no trouble with food I can see that coming up, but the vision I have of paleo living is a bit of a feast/famine rotation that wouldn't allow for "training" in the way we think of it. In order to "train" you need, or would prefer, consistency. In the wild there is much less consistency than in towns and cities, where the elements are controlled for our preferences.
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The ability to hurl heavier rocks, to chuck a larger spear would confer a survival advantage. The ability to move heavy logs and make a better stronger leanto / tent / home would confer advantages. The ability to carry an injured person to safety would help the tribe survive.
On a side note, I have a confession to make. I've been eating timed carbs to see how it affects muscle recovery (potatoes, corn, carb mixer). It's been working great, I'm getting stronger and bigger, but I do tend to put on fat more easily though. I only really eat them after a good solid work out, and tend to keep it to just meat after the first meal of carbs. I did get carried away with it for a couple months (mostly b/c I was on temporary duty and had to eat at a chow hall for 3 weeks), and I put an inch of fat around my stomach. No problem though, I went on the carnivore diet with restricted calories for 1 week and lost 1/2 an inch easy, without losing hardly any strength. Ketosis is such a great way to lose fat.
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If you had a lot of security in your survival and no trouble with food I can see that coming up, but the vision I have of paleo living is a bit of a feast/famine rotation that wouldn't allow for "training" in the way we think of it. In order to "train" you need, or would prefer, consistency. In the wild there is much less consistency than in towns and cities, where the elements are controlled for our preferences.
Well I would have been darm determined to achieve that level of security in my tribe in that case. I see your point and have to agree. One must have a stable enough survival environmeant to have the time and extra energy required to create competitive sport. I'll bet some tribes did achive this.
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Well I would have been darm determined to achieve that level of security in my tribe in that case. I see your point and have to agree. One must have a stable enough survival environmeant to have the time and extra energy required to create competitive sport. I'll bet some tribes did achive this.
In America, the "wild" Indian tribes had pemmican for security so no feast/famine. Paleoman would done the same.
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In America, the "wild" Indian tribes had pemmican for security so no feast/famine. Paleoman would done the same.
Which is exactly why they took over the grain eating civilizations...no wait it was the other way around.
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I hate to admit it, but the advent of grains, while detrimental to health, enabled the stabalization necessary to form civilization. They are easy to store for years and years without spoiling, easy to transport, and fairly calorie dense (not like fat of course), but you can grow lots of calories with a relatively small plot of land.
All these aspects of grains enabled humans to more densly populate any given amount of land.
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I hate to admit it, but the advent of grains, while detrimental to health, enabled the stabilization necessary to form civilization.
All these aspects of grains enabled humans to more densly populate any given amount of land.
So, you think civilization is good?
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Those people talking about weights being unnatural movement; I have found them extremely useful for quickly rehabilitating injuries, whereas others would take months off and it still wouldn't heal properly until they returned to training and it started to strengthen.
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So, you think civilization is good?
Not quite sure how to answer. If you were to say 'so, you think eating raw meat is good?' I could answer easily with a yes, but that's a fairly straight foward and limited question. The other is fairly open and can lead to other philisophical questions merely to answer it.
But I'd say overall that advanced civilization is the only chance humanity has for survival on a large time line. We are only beginning to understand just what it means to be advanced. Unfortunately there is the inherent risk that we may destroy ourselves and our planet before we become truly advanced.
Civilization is an evolutionary adapatation. It is hard to label any one particular adaptation as good or bad, it just is. The consequences may or may not manifest themselves as survival enablers/disablers, and generally it can only be labelled as one or the other after the fact.
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Apology: it was a trick question, on reflection.
The only civilization we know is a grain-based one, which is destructive. There may have been others.
Better to say that technology is good, and ours is not the first high tech culture, though it looks like it might be the last.
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Okay so I said I'd post on what I've been up to the last few months.
So back when I started doing the cyclical ketogenic diet, I would notice an inflated effect to my muscles and liked it. And I had to travel quite a bit between June and October (sometimes had to eat at a chow hall). So I pretty much caved and started eating more and more carbs, grains included. I still made sure to eat raw meat and raw fat, but I liked the effects of insulin on growth, and of course the inflated look. I didn't consider the grains to be too bad. My reasoning was that excess carbs (grains) aren't necessarily unhealthy (aka grain=bad), but it is the insulin resistance that develops as a result that is unhealthy, and I was doing plenty of weight lifting which increases insulin sensitivity. I guess there's still things like gluten intolerance, and yes, I noticed some negative side effects when I really started to add more grains. But eventually my body adapted, and I was still getting plenty of raw meat.
My growth though had somewhat stagnated despite changing up my workout plan and trying a few different things. Kind of frustrating, b/c now the extra carbs didn't seem to be helping me bulk or get any stronger. So I went back to the internet, the trusty source for all kinds of knowledge (after you filter through tons of crap), and found this guy Jason Ferruggia. Basically he says that if you want to get bigger and stronger, you have to lift very heavy, with basic movements, and spend no more than 45 mins per session (b/c of how your horomones respond during lifting).
So at the beginning of December I started doing his program - 3 days a week lifting, 5-8 reps to failure, only only 2 sets per exercise, doing large basic movements (squats, deads, weighted pullups and pushups, plus a few others). Once you can do 8 reps, it's time to increase the weight. This was working great, and I mean great. My back and shoulders quickly filled out, which I had negleted somewhat in the past months. Perhaps more importantly, I was stronger every time I set foot in the gym, whether in weight or reps. I did this for about 2-3 weeks, and then took a break between Christmas and the new year. It was the quickest change I had seen in strength or body composition, although it was only for a couple weeks.
So then I got to thinking that perhaps my earlier experiment with VLC and weights was hampered not b/c of the diet, but b/c I wasn't doing the right kind of program in the gym. I was making slow gains with VLC, but definitely not losing anything. Not only that, the carb metabolism made me put on fat with the mucle, in addition to the added digestive problems b/c of mixing all the carbs and meat. So I wanted to find out if I can repeat these results on VLC.
So 1 Jan I started getting back to ketosis, which sucked, but was over in a few days. Then I went back to the gym on the 5th. I was definitely weaker in the gym for the first 7 days, but after the 1st week I had recovered an equal amount of strength from when I left off in carb metabolism. I just finished out my second week, and I have improved a little from when I left off carb metabolism, although the improvements still haven't matched the rapid pace from earlier. I think part of that is b/c heavy squats and deadlifts were new to me, so you have the neurological effects where your body is first learning to recruit more fibers before growing the existing ones, and I may have been reaching the end of that "newbie" phase just as I was starting ketosis.
I also think a good portion is that I've been out of ketosis for a solid 7 months. I have read that gene expression is altered when in ketosis, and I've read it can take 22 weeks for a full adaptation (enzyme and bacterial changes in the gut, enzyme expression in the mitochondria, etc). Even though it may take that long, I've read some studies ( http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/nutrition-diet-articles/1950-all-about-fats-print.html ) that claim results in the gym should be showing in a few weeks. [I know Lex has said up to a couple years, but I think age and recovery from prior conditions may increase that significantly].
So what this means for me is that I'm going to keep this up for at least a month to give my body some adapation time. As long as I'm making steady gains through February, even if they aren't as dramatic as when I first started, then I'll keep this up for the next 4-6 months or so. I feel optimistic that I'll be able to replicate the results, perhaps do even better on VLC. I can tell I'm not fully adapted yet as the sight/smell of pasta, rice, pizza, etc just gets my mouth watering. I remember not really having these problems when doing VLC for a few months (after having transitioned there from low carb 30-60 grams a day for a good 4-6 months).
In a lot of ways it's important to me that this works out like I hope it will. First, my digestion is so much better this way. And I never really get those strong hunger pangs like I do when eating carbs. After 3-5 days, I could feel that my eyesight and mind were getting much sharper. It was kind of crazy how different it was. And the cold adaptation was amazing. I set my thermostat a good 5 degrees lower (farenheit), and instead of wearing a sweatshirt, I'll often just go shirtless now and feel just fine. I mean, every other metric that I can think of shows just how much better ketosis is than carb metabolism, and I really consider it optimum for the body. I also consider heavy lifting one of the best things you can do as exercise for the body. If done properly, it improves joint strength, increases insulin sensitivity, and makes every day lifting and movement easier and safer - that is so long as you maintain flexibility and don't roid it up like those guys on the magazines.
So really, if ketosis and lifting don't go together, I'll guess I'll be forced to re-evaluated my viewpoint on at least one of these items. I wish there was more study done on this subject. Almost all of the studies done with ketosis are terminated after a week or two, and invariably are done on cooked diets. Seems like I've read quite a bit of conflicting accounts about ketosis and lifting. Guess I'll just have to keep at it and see.
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thanks for the report, I'm sure we'll all be interested to hear how it goes. I can remember a couple of months ago, after already focusing on squats, I included dead lifts, and wow, for a couple of weeks it felt as though I was always pumped. Then that phase left. Not sure what that means except that it seems to maintain a strong growth hormone surge we have to mix it up and keep pushing heavier weights?
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Nice stroy gm. If you get the chance check out my journal, my lifting regimine is very similar to yours. I started lifting seriously again early November and went raw carnivore about 4 weeks ago and luckily did not get affected strength wise at the gym and in fact improved slightly though I dropped carbs and was eating less. I had gained lots of strength a year ago and had gone zero carb before so this probably had a lot to do with it.
All together I put in about 5 months of very-low/zero carb cooked diet and had massive strength improvements and then another 4 months of low carb and high alcohol diet with some more strength gains but not nearly as much. I only started to gain weight when I added in the alcohol and occasional carbs. I stayed pretty lean at the same weight the 5 months I stayed strict.
I agree with you that it should take much less time than it did lex to fully adapt as surely his age and diet history had something to do about it. I don't actually think the body remains in ketosis. When I went zc last year, my urinary ketones eventually dropped to zero. I just measured my ketones today and they are in the low to moderate range.
And yea there hasn't been a single study done on weightlifting on very low carb. I searched pubmed endlessly a year ago and could only find the famous zero carb Phinney study which only lasted 6-7 weeks which is almost worthless. They did comment on how their bikers sprinting capabilities remained low till the end. They never actually measure it just mentioned it without much discussion. This scared me but I stuck with my diet and routine and kept on putting on strength. I'm really interested in seeing if my new raw carnivore will make a difference and its far too early to tell right now.
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As of today I've decided to go off the 100% ketogenic diet and go for what's called a targeted ketogenic diet (TKD). Basically you consume about 30g carbs before or after the gym. It's supposed to help maintain glycogen stores. I'm consuming after the gym.
I'm having a little trouble understanding what's been going on with my body the past week. I use keto strips to test ketones in the urine. When I first got back to ketosis, my urine ketone levels went up just as I was starting to feel crappy from low blood sugar, but they dropped to almost nill the next morning and for the next 2 weeks, whether morning, noon, night, or after a meal. Basically telling me that my body went from burning carbs+fat but not ketones (that's why they were excreted in the urine), to burning mostly just fat+ketones (no longer excreted in urine b/c they're burned up). But lately I've had an upsurge in urine ketones. I thought maybe I wasn't getting enough fat so last night I ate no carbs, and really upped the fat, but I still had a moderate amount. Same thing this morning after almost 12 hrs no food and also right before the gym today.
Does that maybe mean my body is just burning a lot of fat and not using all the ketones? Why would that be the case? Seems inefficient. All I can really think is that my body is converting protein to carbs, which are for glycogen and are also getting used some for energy in the process. I've also noticed my cold tolerance has dropped slightly, especially when my urine readings are high.
Not only that, but I've had 3 weeks now to adapt, and my weights are just barely increasing. I remember going to the gym, lifting those first few plates and thinking, "man this feels light today." I don't get that feeling since in ketosis. In fact, I haven't increased my deadlift except by 1 rep on 1 set since I've started VLC. And on Tuesday, I couldn't complete the 2nd rep of my incline dumbell press on 85 lbs (each arm). I was doing 2 sets of 8 for 80lbs the last time I lifted that exercise, and I had plenty of time to rest since my last upper body workout (5 days, with 2 in a row being completely off).
Now if my results in the gym had slowed but my urine ketones had remained low, I would just chalk this up to my body taking time to adjust, and give it more time. But the fact that my body is excreting ketones makes me think that I'm converting a lot of protein to carbs for the purpose of glycogen replenishment, and that my body is inadvertently using some for energy as well. That would explain the ketone readings, and also my stalling results in the gym.
So why am I going to use a metabolically inefficient process to convert expensive protein to carbs when the result will be the same if I just eat carbs? I'm actually hoping the post workout carbs will help me maintain ketosis better, as I can replace glycogen pretty quickly making it unnecessary for my body to convert protein, and thus it will switch back to using ketones soon after the shake. I'll have to experiment with the right amt, I'm going with 25-35 right now.
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So why am I going to use a metabolically inefficient process to convert expensive protein to carbs when the result will be the same if I just eat carbs?
Consuming more protein, so that it will be converted to glucose is not only inefficient, but also unhealthy.
You can use ketones very good while consuming some amount of carbs - the requirement is about 50-100 g. When your excercises are long-lasting than more carbs are needed.
That's all in biochemistry. :)
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I have a theory that the body will adapt to virtually any level of carbs/fat if you stay at the level long enough and we should never really stay in ketosis. I don't see why we would be wasting much energy one way or the other. There are obvoiusly a lot of other factors.
I suppose it is plausible that excess protein is being converted to glucose to fuel your body which is leading to ketone excretion. It still doesn't explain how you went from a nil reading on the ketostix to moderate after a couple weeks.
Maybe there was some other mechanism going on that held your urinary ketones down to nil. Perhaps you were giving your body just enough carbs at first to stay out of ketosis. You only had one day of high ketones before it dropped to zero for two weeks? The body might not enter ketosis for a couple weeks if you are consuming 30g of carbs a day. Maybe that one reading was a fluke? And just now your body is entering true ketosis as you see more consistent positive ketone readings.
Maybe Im not understanding, what was your carb intake before starting TKD and were you measuring urinary ketones then?
Perhaps this is why I adjusted so much better than you. I went straight to raw carnivore and adapted very quickly in a carbless environment, though I'm still reading moderate on the ketone strips.
How often do you lift? I found that I gained strength faster lifting once every 3 or 4 days. I only deadlift every 7-10 days. There was a period where I was eating low carb and lifting around 4 times a week and completely stalled on my lifts.
Also to add, it may not matter that much but I wouldn't eat carbs right after lifting. Why does it matter when your glycogen stores get refilled? Eat the carbs when you are hungry.
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I was getting about 15g carbs but no more than 30g any day, eating 2 meals a day, lighter for lunch (about 1 lb chuck steak) and heavy for dinner, about 1.5 lb. I take at least 3 measurements a day: morning, after work (before workout), and before bed. I've been showing high for a little less than a week now. It was just last night that I had some post workout carbs. I waited a little over an hour and then ate some fatty steak, and then 30 mins later went to bed. My readings were almost zero, but then this morning my readings were pretty high again.
I remember when I was VLC last year, my readings were always very low. I'm a little perplexed as to why ketones started showing up 2 weeks after I started VLC, and especially the one reading where they were high 12 hrs the morning after a high fat no carb meal.
I lift 3 days a week with upper / lower body splits. So it looks like this:
Week1 Week2
Tue: UB Tue: LB
Thur: LB Thur: UB
Sat: Ub Sat: LB
I only deadlift every other LB session, so really just once every 8-10 days, and I keep my workouts short - 45mins. The thing is, I'm comparing my strength gains between high carb and VLC (almost entirely ignoring size as an important criteria). I was more than capable to maintain this regimine while eating plenty of carbs.
Also, I get hungry in the morning, but definitely not hungry for meat or fat. I'm maintaining body weight, actually put just a little bit of weight on. In fact, I've surprisingly added to my waistline which was rather unexpected. Again, I think evidence that my body is converting a significant amount of protein to carbs.
Really the question that I have is this: If I keep at VLC (without doing TKD), will my body eventually adjust to use fat to create ATP for workouts, or will it keep converting a significant amount of protein to glucose instead? The answer is obviously somewhere in the middle, but where? Just as weight lifting increses insulin sensitivity (increasing the metabolic pathways for processing glucose for recovery), I would expect it to do the same with using fat for energy; so that you would adapt more quickly to fat metabolism than if you did nothing.
Again, I have shown a little gain on most exercises, but it's been 3 weeks with nothing really to brag about. I'm fairly confident that had I maintained carb metabolism, I would have put on quite a bit more. I'll probably render my final verdict (for me) next thursday when I lift the same UB routine I did on tuesday this week. I stepped the weights up on tuesday which naturally decreased the reps. So if this is really working out I should be able to pump out rep or two extra on each set, which is about the gains I was making in carb metabolism.
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I have made my strongest gains in lifting on ZC. You will adapt, but carb cycling just taxes your body, as it cannot adapt to fat burning.
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How long did it take you to adapt to where you were making significant gains, or at least equal gains to eating carbs?
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carb cycling just taxes your body, as it cannot adapt to fat burning.
But one can be on low-carb and burn fat very efficiently.
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You were getting 15 and now are getting 30g of carbs a day. I misunderstood, I thought when you said ketogenic you were implying the cyclical ketogenic diet where you load up on carbs once a week.
It was just last night that I had some post workout carbs. I waited a little over an hour and then ate some fatty steak, and then 30 mins later went to bed. My readings were almost zero, but then this morning my readings were pretty high again.
It makes sense that urine ketones in the morning would be the highest especially after eating carbs the night before.
I remember when I was VLC last year, my readings were always very low. I'm a little perplexed as to why ketones started showing up 2 weeks after I started VLC, and especially the one reading where they were high 12 hrs the morning after a high fat no carb meal.
But you were on a much higher carb diet prior to going ketogenic and then TKD. I thought TKD recommened a lot more carb intake by the way. It still makes sense to me that ketones would show up 2 weeks after starting your ketogenic diet. Supplying the body with any carb intake is going to slow down the process of adaptation.
Really the question that I have is this: If I keep at VLC (without doing TKD), will my body eventually adjust to use fat to create ATP for workouts, or will it keep converting a significant amount of protein to glucose instead? The answer is obviously somewhere in the middle, but where?
The energy needed for the workouts you do isn't all tha much. I know free ATP and creatine phoshate generate energy for intense working out for the first 7-10s and then its glycogen that slowly starts to become the dominant energy, but this is in a non-adapted state. I complete most of my sets in 15-20s and rest quite a while between heavy sets. Normally around 4-5 minutes but waited 15 the other day.
Now, whether you can have sustained energy plaing basketball or MMA is another question that I haven't tested. I had very little/no stamina up until this last week and was able to run 3/4 of a mile fast and pain free. This was after 4 weeks of raw carnivore.
As for your schedule you might want to just drop it down to twice a week, especially if you are still spilling ketones. I know that probably sounds absurd that I'm suggesting twice a week as almost no one does this but I think it will be beneficial. It probably can't hurt right now since you haven't been gaining strength. I feel your pain about not improving. I get very upset even after one day of not imroving.
So, I wouldn't give up on this diet so fast. One month isn't enough time and it could very well be your workout schedule that needs fixing. My gains stalled the more often I tried to lift.
One more thing on your routine - I have to question how much you do for lower or upper body in 45 minutes. That is a lot of time to be focusing in on one area of the body. You might be overworking each part of your body.
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I guess I wasn't clear about what I was doing. Since 1 Jan of this year, I've been doing a straight up 100% ketogenic diet, getting usually only 15g carbs per day, ocassionally up to 30g but never more than that. I have not been carb cycling, like my previous experiment with cyclical ketogenic diet (CKD). Neither have I been doing a targeted ketogenic diet, consuming about 30g carbs near the workout. I did that 1 time out of frustration this past thursday, but decided not to do it anymore until at least this next thursday to give this a little bit more of a chance.
Reducing my workout schedule is really not an option for me, as I did just fine when on carb metabolism, getting consistent gains in the gym. I still have yet to match those gains while in ketosis.
That's the whole point of what I'm doing. I finally learned how to lift correctly for consitent gains in strength and size, and it worked very well while in carb metabolism. I'm trying to see if ketosis works just as well. If it does, I should eventually adapt, and be able to post the same kind of gains as earlier on the exact same program.
If I have to back off and go fewer days a week, lift fewer sets or reps, or take longer breaks in between sets to accomplish the same amount of work; then I know that carb metabolism is superior to ketosis for putting on muscle (for me).
I know that the transition is going to cause a momentary hiatus in my gains as my body adapts, but I was hoping that once I recovered my previous strength (which I have), that the rate of my gains would begin to increase, as my body increasingly adapts to burning fat.
It took about 10 days to recover my original strength, and then I have made some small gains here and there; but some exercises are still only back to even. Other exercises that I have made gains are showing signs of stalling.
I don't necessarily expect (though I had hoped) that after 1 month of straight up ketosis, no carb cycling, I would be posting as good as, or better results than before. But even if I didn't, it is important to be seeing improvements in ability to gain. So maybe I take 10 days to recover my original strength, have problems putting on anything extra for a week or 2, but then slowly start to make better and better gains as the next couple of weeks progress (eventually I would level out of course, and I know we all hit plateaus, but I really shouldn't be getting to that for at least 8-12 weeks).
The problem is that I recovered my strength, started putting on just little reps and weight, and then stalled at the time I would think I should have seen my results accelerating. This was simultaneous with the confusing results with urinary ketones.
I was frustrated when I said I was switching to TKD, but thought better of it later and haven't had any significant carbs since. I'm going to do an UB routine I haven't done since, Thur last week, so hopefully I'll see some improvements. If not, I'm going to stick with this until either Thursday or Saturday next week and see where I'm at.
It's just that, if I'm going to adapt, I should be seeing some positive signs after 4 weeks, especially with a primer like lifting. I'll keep you guys posted, hopefully with good news.
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Hope it works out for you Guittarman. I love lifting on Zero (yes zero) Carbs. I would not want to add any back in in any form, but that's just me.
It did not take me long to adapt at all, surprisingly. In fact, I had to make sure, on ZC, that I was eating ENOUGH calories of fat and protein. On raw ZC, I have so much energy, and I'm continually increasing how much raw meat I'm eating. I'm lifting MORE now than I was before going ZC. Carbs can give energy, sure,as well as diseases and poor body composition and hunger, but fat is the body's preferred energy source, far superior, and makes for a great body composition, with pure energy and no hunger. I'll take the latter :)
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If you do drop to 2 workouts a week (or even 1!) you can always move back up to 3 once you have fully adapted. No one is saying you have to continue twice per week indefinitely. You are clearly not adapted yet and still want to continue lifting at the same frequency as you did with your higher carb diet? There is little chance of your routine working as before as you have shown.
For the first three weeks or so I jumped on the treadmill and could barely complete a slow quarter of a mile before I felt a dull pain in my chest. I stopped immediately and went on with my lifting which went fine. The month before I was on a very high carb cooked diet and ran hard a couple times a week generally 2-3 miles. It wasn't until this past week where I could run hard for more than a quarter mile.
You didn't mention your leg routine. I generally just do 1 or 2 exercises a day, squat (when my knee is healthy) and some version of the oly lifts. 45 minutes is probably too much for you right now. I'd also recommend mixing UB and LB like me 8), but keep the workouts short. I also suggest looking into getting Starting Strength which is where I am getting my suggestions from. Its a phenomenal book.
I, of course, would like to see you cut down your routine and don't think you will have an improvement by next week. I can say that you will probably start adding strength immediately if you add back in carbs. But theres no secret there. If numbers in the gym are your foremost priority then sure go ahead and switch diets. But if you think raw paleo and low carbs are the way then you need to think about switching your routine in the short run. In fact, I have a feeling this diet will give better longer term gains than any other conventional method out there. If you don't switch routines and stay with it a bit longer then imo you haven't given it a fair chance.
Best of luck with whatever you choose.
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Hey Guittarman, what are your health and fitness goals? I just realized I had a pretty bad fixation on attaining the body I had when I ate SAD before and lifted weights. If I wanted to I probably could, but I would have to stuff myself with what I'm eating now and focus a lot of time and effort on working out that I could spend on something else. I work out now more simply and am happy with my body and it's performance. I eat and don't fixate myself on perfection in that area anymore either. My body stays at it's natural weight easily, even when I eat less then usual, or more. What was I striving for?
This may not apply to you, but myself I was unhealthily fixated on the idea of lifting weights for body image for a long time. I'm a lot happier with my outlook now. My body naturally tends towards something like Brad Pitt in Snatch, rather than a bodybuilder.
Is bodybuilding a hobby for you? How long have you been doing it?
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Sort of a hobby, sort of a challenge. I just like it. I like being strong, I like lifting, I like the way I look when I put on muscle, I like the functionnality that it adds, and I think it's generally one of the most healthy forms of exercise. I also make sure to maintain flexibility.
I used to do more of what could be considered body building, hitting the shoulders and arms a good bit, negleting to do many squats or deadlifts. But ultimatly I was more prone to injury and becoming somewhat imbalanced in my proportions for trying to target the 'vanity' muscles if you will. Ultimately I learned that the best way to get big and strong is to do heavy weights, 5-8 reps, no more than 3 days a week, lifting the big functional movements (so really I don't spend a lot of time on this, probably one reason I started becoming more active again on the forum).
Now that I have the basics down (as opposed to 3 sets of 10 like almost everyone does), I'm interested to find an optimal nutrition plan, which is why I'm giving the VLC another go. I've already proven to myself that carb metabolism would probably help me get 10-15 lbs of mostly muscle in just a few months (which is more than I've ever gained before - I'm kind of a hard gainer). It just worked so immediately and so much better than anything I've ever done before, that I'm not even worried about getting the size I want anymore, b/c I know I can always just go back to eating a bunch of carbs and raw meat to get there if I want.
But instead I'm interested to see how a PROPER lifting routine (that is, proper for putting on strength and mass) will mix with a VLC diet. Again, I've only just learned how to lift properly, and the difference is night and day. So hopefully my body will adapt, I can continue with VLC, and hopefully contibute something towards the mostly neglected body of research in the realm of raw ketogenic diets and athletic perfomance.
So yeah, part of it is about looking good naked, but there's more to it than just that.
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I agree with so much in your last post.
This is me, too: "Sort of a hobby, sort of a challenge. I just like it. I like being strong, I like lifting, I like the way I look when I put on muscle, I like the functionnality that it adds, and I think it's generally one of the most healthy forms of exercise. I also make sure to maintain flexibility." As an ectomorph female, lifting makes me strong and gives me a defined, fitness athlete figure rather than just skinny fat.
This: "Ultimately I learned that the best way to get big and strong is to do heavy weights, 5-8 reps, no more than 3 days a week, lifting the big functional movements (so really I don't spend a lot of time on this, probably one reason I started becoming more active again on the forum)." This is what I do as well. Many women do light weights and high volume, which is pointless. I do a few isolation moves, but mostly compound movements for arms and back. I do weightless squats and heavy resistance on the stairstepper for legs, but otherwise do not want or need to work legs.
And this: "So yeah, part of it is about looking good naked, but there's more to it than just that." ZC + Warrior Diet + Raw + Weightlifting has given me the looking good naked PLUS feeling energetic, having clear skin, soft hair and freedom from eating all the time!
I'll be following your continued progress, Guittarman03.
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Ah finally good news to share. So I'm fairly convinced that I was going through a sort of secondary adjustment if you will.
-I feel much better
-My urinary ketones have gone down, not to the low they were at first, but have dropped quite a bit
-My cold tolerance has returned
-Instead of hunger pangs between waking and lunch, I just feel that my stomach is empty w/o being hungry
-I have more energy between waking and lunch, in fact, I notice a drop in energy after lunch. Hell, maybe I'll eventually move to 1 meal per day
-Went snowboarding this past Sunday, didn't eat anything till 4PM but had no energy problems on the mountain
-Put on a couple pounds the past few days, despite eating less food.
-Lifted today, and for the first time since starting a ketogenic diet, I felt that "this 45 lb plate feels light", "these squats feel light"
- Squats: 245lb, 14 reps and 9 reps, much improved form since last time I did squats. Normally I don't do that many reps, but I was just able to push em out. I'll work on getting better form before moving the weight up though.
Not only that, but I'm starting to feel the effects of rapid healing again. I remember before that whenever I'd get hurt, I was just amazed at how fast my body would heal. Well, I tried a jump on Sunday, landed straight on my left hip bone from a good 5 feet up. Walking, even just moving my left leg while sitting would hurt. I was a little worried I'd have to hold off on the gym this week (as it's a 2 lower body sessions), but somewhere in the middle of the night, it's almost like it magically got better. I mean, still hurts a little when I push on it, but nothing that I really even think about during the day.
Thanks for the inputs, they convinced me to hold off adding any carbs back in for a little bit longer, and I suspect over the next few weeks I should start to see some significant gains again.
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More good news. I went snowboarding today for about 5 hrs. I didn't eat anything. I got home around 4PM, and then went to lift squats and deadlifts an hour later. My squats have dropped a little from Tuesday, but my deads finally improved, it's been a good 4 weeks now since I've seen significant improvement on deadlifts. I'm not too disappointed about the squats as 5 hrs of boarding and jumping is bound to take a little out of you. Nonetheless, I still matched what I did for squats on this same routine 10 days ago. (If that is confusing, I have 2 separate leg workouts that both involve squats, but only 1 involves deadlifts).
Squat: 245lb - 11 reps and 9 reps
Deadlift: 295 - 7 reps and 6 reps
Calves and Wrists: Just some basic calf raises and wrist curls, I improved on both of these as well.
I finally did eat at about 7PM. I also only ate 1 meal yesterday. I'll probably keep going w/ 1 meal a day unless that starts becoming a problem. Next week is 2 upper body workouts, starting on Tuesday. My next LB will be on Thur, but it won't involve deadlifts.
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Hey man that's a good amount of weight you're squatting and deadlifting. I'm gonna try to catch up to you within the next month or so
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Glad to see you are improving. Keep the updates up if you can. 14 squats at 245 is very good. Why not throw some more weight on there?
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I'm still not quite getting my thighs parallel to the floor. While my form has improved even from when I was doing lower weight, I want to make sure I can get perfect form before adding any more weight. I think part of it is also a flexibilty issue. Next lower body session (thursday) I'm going to sacrifice reps to make sure I get there. If I can still do 10 or more, then I'll put more weight on next time.
How much do you turn your feet out? I'm probably about 20 degrees outward. Also, I do squats, deadlifts, and standing shoulder press barefoot.
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If you are doing 245 with bad/improper form you really need to back off and get the form down right. This is extremely important for further progress.
The type of squat you are doing is going to dictate the amount of depth, back angle, knee extension, knee angle, etc...
There are two main types of back squats, high bar and low bar. High bar squats, or olympic squats are performed by placing the bar high on the back on the trapezius. To get a good view of where to place the bar, which is important, retract the shoulder blades back very far without a shirt to see the shelf that the traps create.
What I do to retract the shoulders is place my hands on the bar first and press myself through and infront of the bar and then slowly back up until the bar is right above my traps. I keep my elbows back and up, not down perpendicular to the ground which I see so many people doing. This "locks" the bar in place a bit and allows the wrists to remain straight and not under stress.
The more flexible you are the more narrow you can stand. Generally, you want to stand with feet right at shouder width apart 12-15". The farther out you spread your legs the farther out you will foot angle will change. A good way to find correct foot angle is to sit in a chair with feet together pointing straight out. Start moving your thighs apart and notice the angle that your feet naturally take. When they are shoulder width apart, this will be the angle that will probably be right.
When you descend you want to keep your head straight or just down a bit. Break first at the hips and sit straight down. Do not let your knees travel far, a good rule is to keep the knees right above the toes but not much further. Your knees should also be angled out so that they trace directly over the feet and do not cave in or push out too wide. Caving in seems to be a common problem, especially for noobs who have trouble with flexibility. You want to keep your back as straight as possible. Depending on your individual anthropomorphology, the angle of your back will be different but you should be fairly close to being upright.
Another important point is to keep the weight on your heels at all times. Descend in a controlled fashion, while holding your breath. This is important as the air in your abdomen will keep you stable throughout the movement. Do not breath in or out during the rep, only after its completed. This is called the valsalva movement.
Squat down past parallel until your thighs and calves connect. If you are not flexible enough to do this I would suggest a lot of time sitting deep in the squat position. The bottom of the squat is important to use the stretch reflex mechanism that occurs as your muscles are stretching out at the bottom and bounce out of the hole. It is not violent like a slinky but controlled and natural.
Push through the heels hard at the bottom and come through hard agan with your hips at the top.
Here's a really good video of an olympic squatter. His knees cave in because of the weight but otherwise his form is excellent and you can clearly see his massive shelf of traps that holds the bar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y8yKSJbpFI&feature=related
Low bar squats can be seen described in the stsarting strength wiki I linked early. You can lift more weight with low bar and there is a lot of debate which one is better but high bar seems more natural with less tress on the sholders and what olympic lifters do so thats what I do. I would do lots of squats with just the bar every day for a while to get the form down just right.
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Glad to read you're doing so well. I agree with others in that you should focus on form at a lower weight, rather then doing the weight you can do with improper form and trying to work on form from there.
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The body runs on fat for fuel. The liver converts fat into glucose. So the more fat you eat, the more energy you will have to burn. Aim for eating a lot of fat as this helps slap on heaps of healthy body fat.
Ive put on 36lbs in the last few months and havent picked up a single weight or done a single push up! Now thats some serious results I have to say! 8)
Bottom line, if you want to bulk, hit the RAF really hard and forget lifting weights and carbs as it just puts the body in an catabolic state.
Guys there is better things to do than live in the gym and look in the mirrors! ;)
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Hey guittarman could you post an update on how everything went since the end of January? From this thread it seems like you needed a month to get used to it then it was better for you, yet in more recent threads I've seen you be against RZC...
I'm quite interested in the RZC vs Raw meat/fat with additional fruit or cooked sweet potato/yam. Personally I lifted weights for 4 years taking protein supplements and such and gained strength but never mass. I've always been around 50lbs underweight(currently 6'8" 170lbs). I'd like to gain lean mass and be as athletic as possible.
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Hey guys, it's been awhile since I've trolled around or given a status update. I'm doing 70% RPD, with the occasional burger and some light drinking on the weekends. I guess I just find it too socially impractical to never eat regular food, and consider that 70% RPD is still going to afford me lots of benefits.
Anyhow, after the end of Feb I gave up on the VLC ketogenic plan in favor of a high carb, high protein, low fat approach. I tried the standard BB meal plan - eat 6 meals a day every 2-3 hours, but that didn't seem to work for me. In fact, I ended up putting on some extra fat and almost nothing in the form of strength.
I eventually quit the low rep powerlifting type workouts in favor of a varied workout where one set I may do 15-20, and the next I may do only 5 reps. The most important factor is to focus on contracting the muscle you're trying to work, not just moving the weight. When I started doing that (a tip given by a personal trainer), I started to put on size and strength again (on the high carb high protein diet).
I have a new hypothesis that was generated by an accidental discovery. I was tired of having a 33” waist (the result of trying to bulk up) so I set out to shed some fat. I cut out most of the carbs in favor of high protein, moderate fat, and low carb (but not VLC). Also, I quit eating so often, eating now 3-4 times a day, and not too much at any 1 serving. I now eat maybe 60g carbs per day, most of it coming from fruit, coconut water, and a little from marinade I use for flavor. I’ll consume a good bit of carbs just before a workout, but try to keep it to only protein directly after. I’ve read that insulin tends to reduce testosterone and growth hormone, even though it does blunt the rise of catabolic hormones. Also, I’ve cut my calories by about 1/3 overall.
I assumed that surely I would lose some muscle, but lo and behold over the past few weeks I’ve gotten stronger and bigger (not a lot, but still measurable) while I’ve dropped ½” of the waist. Kind of odd, but I’m wondering if all those calories and eating was actually hurting me. Maybe I was spending so much time on digestion, that I never gave my body a chance to grow and repair. Oh yeah the savings on the pocketbook have been nice too.
Not only that, when I decide to splurge once or twice a week, it seems to have almost no effect on my waistline, instead my body takes the opportunity to grow instead of pack on any extra fat. On the high calorie, eat every 2-3 hr plan I could never splurge without it hitting my waist the next day.
Just a hypothesis tho, maybe my results as of late have just been from a re-focus on contracting the muscles properly instead of just trying to move more weight.
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If you are doing 245 with bad/improper form you really need to back off and get the form down right. This is extremely important for further progress.
The type of squat you are doing is going to dictate the amount of depth, back angle, knee extension, knee angle, etc...
There are two main types of back squats, high bar and low bar. High bar squats, or olympic squats are performed by placing the bar high on the back on the trapezius. To get a good view of where to place the bar, which is important, retract the shoulder blades back very far without a shirt to see the shelf that the traps create.
What I do to retract the shoulders is place my hands on the bar first and press myself through and infront of the bar and then slowly back up until the bar is right above my traps. I keep my elbows back and up, not down perpendicular to the ground which I see so many people doing. This "locks" the bar in place a bit and allows the wrists to remain straight and not under stress.
The more flexible you are the more narrow you can stand. Generally, you want to stand with feet right at shouder width apart 12-15". The farther out you spread your legs the farther out you will foot angle will change. A good way to find correct foot angle is to sit in a chair with feet together pointing straight out. Start moving your thighs apart and notice the angle that your feet naturally take. When they are shoulder width apart, this will be the angle that will probably be right.
When you descend you want to keep your head straight or just down a bit. Break first at the hips and sit straight down. Do not let your knees travel far, a good rule is to keep the knees right above the toes but not much further. Your knees should also be angled out so that they trace directly over the feet and do not cave in or push out too wide. Caving in seems to be a common problem, especially for noobs who have trouble with flexibility. You want to keep your back as straight as possible. Depending on your individual anthropomorphology, the angle of your back will be different but you should be fairly close to being upright.
Another important point is to keep the weight on your heels at all times. Descend in a controlled fashion, while holding your breath. This is important as the air in your abdomen will keep you stable throughout the movement. Do not breath in or out during the rep, only after its completed. This is called the valsalva movement.
Squat down past parallel until your thighs and calves connect. If you are not flexible enough to do this I would suggest a lot of time sitting deep in the squat position. The bottom of the squat is important to use the stretch reflex mechanism that occurs as your muscles are stretching out at the bottom and bounce out of the hole. It is not violent like a slinky but controlled and natural.
Push through the heels hard at the bottom and come through hard agan with your hips at the top.
Here's a really good video of an olympic squatter. His knees cave in because of the weight but otherwise his form is excellent and you can clearly see his massive shelf of traps that holds the bar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y8yKSJbpFI&feature=related
Low bar squats can be seen described in the stsarting strength wiki I linked early. You can lift more weight with low bar and there is a lot of debate which one is better but high bar seems more natural with less tress on the sholders and what olympic lifters do so thats what I do. I would do lots of squats with just the bar every day for a while to get the form down just right.
Going deep like that feels really good. I didn't realise you could have that bar so high.
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I cut out most of the carbs in favor of high protein, moderate fat, and low carb (but not VLC).
Any idea what the amount +or ratio of protein to fat is that you eat?
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MMmm I love me some deeeep high bar squats. Really gotta check your ego on these though. My rock bottom high bar squat is probably a minimum of 100lbs off of my wider stance, low bar, just below parallel squat.
Something that should be mentioned with that video is the heeled shoes that help the knees go forwards more. You CAN squat the same way barefoot but it takes awhile to gain the flexibility to be able to keep your heels down in the hole. It's possible though that heeled shoes will always make the bottom position more comfortable and stable though.
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Going deep like that feels really good. I didn't realise you could have that bar so high.
what do you mean high? like closer to the neck?
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Yep, I have the bar lower, on the back of my arms/shoulders
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Yep, I have the bar lower, on the back of my arms/shoulders
You can squat like that too, its a stronger position but your squats will not be as deep. The higher up the bar is the less torso lean, the lower you can get your butt between your legs.
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I can't imagine going lower! will try
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I thought bending your knees lower then a 90 degree angle was bad for them... ?
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I thought bending your knees lower then a 90 degree angle was bad for them... ?
If that were the case for everyone, how would our ancestors have defecated for the millions of years before raised outhouses and throne toilets were invented? If you observe hunter gatherers in the wild, one of their most common ways of sitting is a full squat, probably the most common. It is possible, however, to overdo it if the body is unaccustomed to squatting, as with many Westerners.
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If that were the case for everyone, how would our ancestors have defecated for the millions of years before raised outhouses and throne toilets were invented? If you observe hunter gatherers in the wild, one of their most common ways of sitting is a full squat, probably the most common. It is possible, however, to overdo it if the body is unaccustomed to squatting, as with many Westerners.
we were talking about really heavy loaded back-squats.
Its likely that any movement one can do naturally, you can theoretically load weight without harm, but there is possibly some concern to be had, particularly with forcing a lower stance with a higher weight even if one can physically do both separately. At my gym they emphasize going into the deepest squat, prior to loading higher weights, but these would go well under 90 for sure.
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we were talking about really heavy loaded back-squats.
Yes, I know. I meant my comment to be taken to be inclusive rather than exclusive. By "overdo it" I meant potentially using more weight than one can handle safely as well as going deeper than the body is accustomed to.
Its likely that any movement one can do naturally, you can theoretically load weight without harm, but there is possibly some concern to be had, particularly with forcing a lower stance with a higher weight even if one can physically do both separately. At my gym they emphasize going into the deepest squat, prior to loading higher weights, but these would go well under 90 for sure.
I agree and this is basically what I meant. IIRC, Mark Rippetoe even claims that going deep actually helps, rather than makes things worse. If your gym is a Crossfit gym then they may agree, as they seem to be somewhat influenced by Rippetoe, though I'm not sure. Your gym's advice fits well with our evolutionary heritage, so at the least it sounds reasonable, but I'm no expert on weighted squats or body building.
Years ago I was told by some that deep knee bends and weighted deep squats were unhealthy, but later I heard and read some body builders saying it was one of the best bodybuilding exercises and I realized that it is a natural human movement. However, structural problems like weak connective tissues and muscle atrophy can make heavy-weighted deep squats difficult. I can't do heavily weighted squats myself because my left knee has a weak ligament and the kneecap subluxates (pops out of its socket easily), though that has improved somewhat on my RPD.
It is possible to overload the leg bones even if one doesn't go deep. I was in a gym when a guy snapped a leg bone while doing moderate squats that were not deep while lifting heavy weights. There's also a Youtube video of this happening to a guy under a massive weight load. The weight was just too much for these guys' bones and maybe too much for them to maintain proper technique--though I'm no expert on that. If one is concerned about safety I would think that going somewhat easy on the weight and focusing on proper technique would indeed be a safe way to start out, as your gym apparently advised.
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I'm curious, is there anyone on here who knows from experience the effects of taking HGH, or some kind of anabolic steroid, and compared it to RPD? Despite it being synthetic, you'd still probably see better results from steroids than just RPD.
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I'm curious, is there anyone on here who knows from experience the effects of taking HGH, or some kind of anabolic steroid, and compared it to RPD? Despite it being synthetic, you'd still probably see better results from steroids than just RPD.
Yeah sure real great results; shrinking testikels, ruined kidness/liver, extreme agression, spontanious growth of tissue where it doesn't belong.
I have no personal experience with any of them and would avoid them like the plague. I think in general the results are over estimated and the side effects severely underestimated. Tons of people are taking steriods, some of them are genetic freaks that would have been huge, if they exercised heavy, anyway. There are however plenty of great physiques from the past when far fewer people exercised with weights and steroid and other such crap had yet to be invented. Bob Hoffman and Bill Pearl being only two of them. And then there are much older examples to be admired carved from stone by ancient sculptors. Thousands of years ago such man existed because otherwise those sculptors would not have known how to carve such statue, it not being possible to predict how a very large men would look like without having ever seen one. Muscular shapes change when they get bigger.
If you are considering taking any such synthetic aids consider the above. Train hard, very hard and you will get as big as your genetics allow for without destroying your body/mind in the process.
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If one is concerned about safety I would think that going somewhat easy on the weight and focusing on proper technique would indeed be a safe way to start out, as your gym apparently advised.
And anyone with at least some common sense could have figured out
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Yeah sure real great results; shrinking testikels, ruined kidness/liver, extreme agression, spontanious growth of tissue where it doesn't belong.
I have no personal experience with any of them and would avoid them like the plague. I think in general the results are over estimated and the side effects severely underestimated.
^So you don't know from experience! I used to think eating raw meat would give me parasites and harmful bacteria that would destroy me based on respected literature! If you research it, there's no info that supports steroids, and everything that goes against it. People know that it works, therefore, it's kept on the down low. Very similar to raw paleo.
^ I have been friends with and seen many people who take steroids and they have impressive looking bodies, get girls, are smart, and it seems from the fact that they promote human growth. I notice positive growth in girls once they take birth control (steroid), when medically prescribed steroids from doctors I see people grow in intelligence and stature, and looking at bodies of professional, steroid taking athletes compared to amatuer natural ones, I'm just being honest, the professional ones look better to everyone! Steroids come in so many forms, usually prescribed by doctors, they don't even realize much of their success comes from the human growth stimulated by these synthetics.
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I wonder if perhaps eating a ton of testicles would have a more natural steroid effect.
Or even eating lots of brains and other glands.
Along with drinking copious amounts of fresh blood.
I am not sure if it would cause one to gain bulk mass(because I am on a low carb diet I haven't gained much mass. I have maintained around 170) But as far as increasing strength, I have noticed great overall improvements in muscle tone and endurance from eating whole animal raw paleo, along with extra brains and testicles. I have been eating a brain a day for the past three weeks.
Anyone else believe that blood, brains, and balls could have natural and safe androgenic properties?
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I ate testicle once. It was powerful but wrong for me. I felt that it would be so good for a man, but you are the first man I found to report eating raw testicle. The few experiences with blood have felt so right and good to my body. I thought blood was supposed to induce vomiting. I expected this, but it is like velvet smooth. Perfect. Easy to digest. Comforting to my digestion. I loved the stuff and I'm determined to get more. I also have enjoyed lots of fish row. It feels like a deeply healing food for my feminine body. It seems like you are on the right tract to me even though I come from the Venus side of your streangth and healing ideas.
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I wonder if perhaps eating a ton of testicles would have a more natural steroid effect.
Or even eating lots of brains and other glands.
Along with drinking copious amounts of fresh blood.
I am not sure if it would cause one to gain bulk mass(because I am on a low carb diet I haven't gained much mass. I have maintained around 170) But as far as increasing strength, I have noticed great overall improvements in muscle tone and endurance from eating whole animal raw paleo, along with extra brains and testicles. I have been eating a brain a day for the past three weeks.
Anyone else believe that blood, brains, and balls could have natural and safe androgenic properties?
The notion is that like cures like or stimulates like. The bodybuilders back in the 1970's were taking copious amount of liver pills (not ideal by any means), but the testimonies from Jack Lalanne, Don Howorth, Frank Zane, etc, all felt incredible endurance, faster recovery, and skin complexion improved substantially. Vince Gironda who trained many of the famous bodybuilders from 60's to late 80's was a huge proponent of orchic (bull balls) as was Bob Gajda who were both natural. Jack Lalanne and others during the Muscle Beach years would go to the stockyards and drink raw cows blood, until Jack thought he sipped down what appeared to be a clot and then stopped. He admitted that the cows blood was also an excellent energizer.
The only aforementioned gland I've eaten fairly consistently would be liver and I definitely feel better and has given me substantial endurance and recovery from heavy training in the gym. I have yet to try raw rocky mountain oysters, but I would like to if I can procure a source.
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Anyone else believe that blood, brains, and balls could have natural and safe androgenic properties?
Testosterone can't be stored anywhere in the body.
Blood would likely have the most significant androgenic properties, from any free testosterone in it.
But I'm not sure extra testosterone is very good, no matter if it's natural or synthetic.
It depends a lot on your genes whether it will get used for muscles. A lot of it might just be converted to estrogen (which also depends on how fat you are I think which again is mostly due to your genes..).
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The only aforementioned gland I've eaten fairly consistently would be liver and I definitely feel better and has given me substantial endurance and recovery from heavy training in the gym. I have yet to try raw rocky mountain oysters, but I would like to if I can procure a source.
I have similar experience with liver. There's some unknown factor in raw liver, which increases endurance; there have been experiments with mice left swimming to death, and those that ate liver beforehand went on swimming for more than two hours vs. those on normal diet or normal diet + vitamin pills that survived only around 10 minutes.
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I ate testicle once. It was powerful but wrong for me. I felt that it would be so good for a man, but you are the first man I found to report eating raw testicle. The few experiences with blood have felt so right and good to my body. I thought blood was supposed to induce vomiting. I expected this, but it is like velvet smooth. Perfect. Easy to digest. Comforting to my digestion. I loved the stuff and I'm determined to get more. I also have enjoyed lots of fish row. It feels like a deeply healing food for my feminine body. It seems like you are on the right tract to me even though I come from the Venus side of your streangth and healing ideas.
^If only the average woman at the coffee shop was like you.
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I have similar experience with liver. There's some unknown factor in raw liver, which increases endurance; there have been experiments with mice left swimming to death, and those that ate liver beforehand went on swimming for more than two hours vs. those on normal diet or normal diet + vitamin pills that survived only around 10 minutes.
[/quotteI have similar experience with liver. There's some unknown factor in raw liver, which increases endurance; there have been experiments with mice left swimming to death, and those that ate liver beforehand went on swimming for more than two hours vs. those on normal diet or normal diet + vitamin pills that survived only around 10 minutes.
Good call, I remember that study.
I wish I was able to get a consistent grassfed liver source out here in Colorado, but have yet to find one near where I live. As for testosterone, I definitely think inducing a natural raise in testosterone is beneficial, the higher the levels (within reason) are essential for well-being, bone mass, and muscle mass. I think you may be right in regards to excess test being converted to estrogen as a means for homeostasis, and a lot is due to genetics and adipose tissue has higher binding receptors for estrogen from what I remember reading.