Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: PaleoPhil on November 15, 2009, 10:13:21 am
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Parasites
Radiolab
http://www.wnyc.org/shows/radiolab/episodes/2009/09/25
This 1 hour program discusses among other things the fascinating story of how the USA started getting oversanitized shortly before a big jump in autoimmune-related illnesses like asthma in the late 1800s and how Jasper Lawrence learned about the Hygiene Hypothesis and helminthic therapy and as a result put his asthma into remission by infecting himself with hookworm parasites, and he now sells hookworms.
Helminthic Therapy: How to put your Asthma, Colitis, IBD, Crohn's or Multiple Sclerosis into remission with hookworm.
http://www.asthmahookworm.com/
Summary
An important relationship exists between parasite infections and the development of atopic disorders. Long-lived parasite infections offer protection against atopic diseases like asthma, Crohn's disease, ulcerative colitis, multiple sclerosis and hayfever by immunosuppression. This knowledge is the basis for helminthic therapy, the deliberate inoculation or infection of an atopic individual with helminths to achieve remission for their disorder, such as those listed above. They induce modulatory molecules that ameliorate host responses to enhance their survival. The precise linking element's are not known but both eosinophils and IgE globulins that occur so prominently in both disorders may be crucial to this relationship. Understanding the immunology of the host-parasite interaction and identifying the distinct parasite molecules with the immunomodulating effects may help to combat allergy more successfully.
The hygiene hypothesis re-emphasized the inverse relationship between infection and allergy. Helminth research has once again provided key insights into the possible immunological explanation. The initial Th1-Th2 dichotomy provided the earliest immunological explanation for the hypothesis but there are major discrepancies. Several researchers have forwarded alternative immunological concepts in an attempt to better explain the original hygiene hypothesis. Modified Th-2 responses seen in parasite infections may provide protective 'blocking IgG4 globulins' that inhibit allergic responses. Protective programming of the fetal immune system by exposure to early infections or other environmental factors may be the critical factor against later atopic conditions. The identification of superantigens in the development of atopic skin lesions provides further insight into this interesting relationship. Research may well show that allergy is an unfortunate by-product of an evolutionary mechanism developed to combat bacteria, parasites and other organisms. We have come around in a full circle. Allergy started with the study of infections and today we still look at infections for answers to allergic conditions. The exact link between allergy and infection may provide a means of effective and successful treatment of these two important human problems. Alternative approaches such as the use of Mycobacterium vaccae, Th1 adjuvants such as IL-12 or the use of immunostimulatory nucleotides (CpG) are examples of potential new therapies
Parasite Rex by Carl Zimmer: Looks like a good book about parasites, including their beneficial effects
Hippity hop! Where to stop?, November 14, 2004
By Stephen A. Haines (Ottawa, Ontario Canada)
.... Zimmer cites Robin Dunbar's thesis that grooming for parasites ultimately allowed humans to develop speech and language. He explains how our immune systems and parasites enter a modus vivendi that allows the parasite and host alike to survive. Recognising how that process evolved could lead to better coexistence through "taming" the invaders.
Coexistence with these minute creatures turns out to have many implications. It's now clear that the development of agriculture made human society vulnerable to invaders unknown on the savannah. Human bodies became less robust and mortality rates rose. ....
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Interesting reading - thanx for sharing!
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Yes, and pretty ironic that some parasites might actually be good for us (at least some people), rather than bad.
You're welcome SkinnyDevil!
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When parasites are good for their host one should actually call them symbionts. Symbiosis as for bacteria on our skin or in our gut.
Apparently such "infections" become useful when the host is poisoned by inappropriate food. Crohn's disease for instance is induced by grain poisons such as gluten. Hookworm infection prevents it. Why?
Rather than a tricky immunological explanation, a simpler interesting explanation might be that hookworms are actually capable to use these poisons, here gluten or its degradation products, as food. What's poison for us is food for them and their mere presence may just keep the poison level low enough to avoid Crohn's disease.
Similar reasoning about "useful infections" with bacteria or viruses as well was put forward many years ago by GC Burger, the inventor of instinctotherapy.
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this is a great read. this guy eats raw salmon and deer that he catches. this is his take on parasites. very interesting.
http://goingferal.wordpress.com/2009/11/15/parasites-those-who-inhabit-us/ (http://goingferal.wordpress.com/2009/11/15/parasites-those-who-inhabit-us/)
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Brilliant writing. Absolutely brilliant!
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this is a great read. this guy eats raw salmon and deer that he catches. this is his take on parasites. very interesting.
http://goingferal.wordpress.com/2009/11/15/parasites-those-who-inhabit-us/ (http://goingferal.wordpress.com/2009/11/15/parasites-those-who-inhabit-us/)
Nice one.
"too many visits to the cake dumpster and those-who-inhabit-you will go crazy!"
what does this slang mean?
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It means that eating shitty food like cakes and pies will upset your parasites and they will turn on you.
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Good find. Lots to read.
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There are THREE cases against and only ONE in favour of parasites in this radioshow. Isn't it cherry picking? Why nobody mentions lethargy and reduced work productivity of the physically slow and sickly pale southerns? Why nobody points to the Professor David Pritchard's experiment on how 10 worms were tolerated when 50 put him "out of commission"? And how about the link between Toxoplasma infection and schizophrenia? It's not just about having parasites and being healthy. There must be the balance...
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I think it's probably because most people already assume that all parasites are harmful, so sources like those above balance that out and show that some are beneficial. Few folks have your level of knowledge on parasites, Yuri. Plus the RadioLab show DID mention the lethargy and reduced work productivity of US Southerners, which is what led to the whole war on parasites (for lack of a better term) to begin with, which they explained in exploring the history of the topic. The downside of this war on parasites is that recent evidence suggests it led to increased rates of asthma and other chronic illnesses. Did you listen to the whole RadioLab program? The section that includes discussion of topics you said "nobody mentions" begins at 22:00.
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Of course the asthma example shows us how beneficial it may be to coexist with parasites. However, there are three other cases in this same radioshow linking parasites to diminished health. I wonder why it was omitted in this clearly pro-parasitic post...
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Again, because most folks are already view most or all parasites as negative. The only news is the beneficial ones, which rarely get covered. The RadioLab show was the first mainstream coverage outside of the Internet that I've ever encountered. How many positive stories about parasites have you encountered in TV, radio or newspapers?
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None of course. And I have to admit that this show is the best one I have ever heard. It's simply fascinating! Thanks for posting it, Phil.
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You're welcome, Yuri!
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By the way, there is an update on hookworms (http://blogs.wnyc.org/radiolab/2010/04/02/an-update-on-hookworms/)...
"If you heard our Parasites show, then you’ve heard the story of how one man–Jasper Lawrence–turned his passion for hookworms into a business (Jasper deliberately infected himself with hookworms to combat allergies and asthma).
Pat Walters, who first introduced us to Jasper, wondered how the modern-day entrepreneur was faring—were orders flying in? Did people really want to buy hookworms? So he called Jasper up…and discovered he had big news: he’d had a visit from the FDA..."
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Wow, the feds have really made things difficult for him. I'm not surprised, nor was he. It's going to take quite a societal paradigm change for helminthic therapy, raw Paleo diets and other sensible approaches to be adopted on a large scale.
An update on hookworms
http://www.wnyc.org/shows/radiolab/
Jasper Lawrence's hookworm company
http://autoimmunetherapies.com/
On the bright side, it looks like Jasper's story and some recent research reports have inspired quite a bit of mainstream media coverage:
http://autoimmunetherapies.com/helminthic_therapy_news.html
"Although it was testing for safety, not efficacy, Prof Pritchard said that many of the patients in a hay fever trial had opted not to have the worms removed with tablets at the end because they had seen an improvement in their symptoms." http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2007/sep/15/healthandwellbeing
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Yuri, they didnt say that the southerners were lazy because of hookworm, they just used hookworm as the excuse for their lack of caring aboot whatever they wanted them to do.
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Please let's be careful on a potentially sensitive issue--Yuri said "lethargy", not "lazy". It's been a while since I listened to the program, but I do recall the history saying that the investigators who were looking for the cause of Southern lethargy did decide it was caused by hookworm and did find that it was reduced with the installation of deep latrines. The downside, of course, was the increase in asthma and other chronic illnesses.
What the RadioLab program didn't cover was that another factor in the lethargy may have been low-quality, grain-based diets. If the Southerners had been eating well they may not have developed lethargy from the hookworms even if we assume the investigators were right in connecting the lethargy to the hookworms. I don't know of any raw Primal or raw Paleo dieters who have reported acquiring lethargy from eating potentially-parasite-carrying foods like raw meats or fish. Nor does Jasper Lawrence report lethargy in himself or any of his patients. It could be that a healthy diet enables people to better handle symbionts like hookworms.
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Well when I got the ol' Bever fever or giardias or whatever you wnat to call it, they say you're going to be sick for about 3 weeks.. Both my wife and I were only feeling smacked around for 2-3 days.
We do notice that if we get sick, our appetite for meat drops and we prefer plant based stuff.
Like when I had the giardias I was like 'no, no meat..' and I would eat a grapefruit or two a day while my wife laughed at me and called me a pussy.. then two days later when it grabbed her she was going 'no... no meat' and would just eat a grapefruit too... three uncomfortable days later we were fine again.
It might not be the fruit that we're after though, probably just the liquids, since we both are not fans of water, we think now you would drink Blood -> fruit -> water as preferance. So we drink fruit these days, but then again after one or two grapefruit your mouth feels messed up so your body limits you haha.
We also took oregano oil at first because you know, you have evil parasites right? looking back the adaption to the giardia parasite might have been much smoother if we just let things happen instead of KILL IT!!! OMG ITS TRYING TO KILL ME!! I think we may have made things worse fighting it.
I lost what my point was, i think it had to do with raw paleo = symbiote, S.A.D = Parasite?
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The downside of this war on parasites is that recent evidence suggests it led to increased rates of asthma and other chronic illnesses.
I think Alexander technique breathing can get rid of asthma attacking in most cases. I imagine it can change your relationship with parasites too.
The asthma sufferer’s real problem
… is not the physical fact of constricted bronchioles — or even inflammation.
These are secondary problems, mere symptoms, in fact. Symptoms of their reaction to feeling unable to breathe.
Their reaction is what constricts the bronchioles.
Their reaction to feeling constricted is what makes them constrict their airways even further
… and this is what makes them less able to breathe than ever. [footnote].
This habitual reaction is just about the worst possible.
If instead they had reacted to the feeling of breathlessness by refraining from making any effort to breathe, the problem would have automatically sorted itself out.
Their air passages would have relaxed and dilated and they would have allowed their respiratory muscles to release and let the stale air out. This would have left room for a new supply of fresh air.
Without the Alexander Technique, this isn’t easily done, though.
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I think Alexander technique breathing can get rid of asthma attacking in most cases. I imagine it can change your relationship with parasites too.
I'm not sure how your comment relates to the thread topic--do you understand the point that hookworms were found to be beneficial for asthma even without the Alexander technique or any other technique? Granted, there are other treatments, including RPD, but this thread is about parasites.
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I'm not sure how your comment relates to the thread topic--do you understand the point that hookworms were found to be beneficial for asthma even without the Alexander technique or any other technique? Granted, there are other treatments, including RPD, but this thread is about parasites.
As I posted it, I was thinking it didn't fit perfectly. Sorry. I feel everything does tie in though. Maybe I shouldn't post when I'm too much in the midst of other things to explain how it might tie in. I do appreciate your thoughtful long posts.
As far as RPD and some new breathing technique, sure, Alexander wasn't born yet in Paleo times. I'm sure Paleo time people breathed different than SAD people though. I didn't mean to ruin your thread.
Anyway, I've seen people die from asthma, young "healthy" strong people. I would hope they use anything at their disposal, not just paleo ways or parasites to get better.
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Anyway, I've seen people die from asthma, young "healthy" strong people. I would hope they use anything at their disposal, not just paleo ways or parasites to get better.
They've been trained to not use anything at their disposal, for instance smokers tend not to get asthma, and these people might rather die than smoke. They might also rather die than deliberately have hookworms, but if hookworms cure asthma, might they not also solve whatever problem inspires people to smoke?
I would try hookworms if I could get them. Maybe cheaper than tobacco.
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Where is this from that smoking not only does not cause, but prevents asthma? As virtually all information on asthma is that smoking causes and exacerbates it even if the initial cause is of factory/asbestos, nature.
Everyone I knew growing up that had childhood asthma, grew up around second-hand smoke.
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I think we should really put in effort to choose the PC (paleo correct) term symbiote from now on.
I mean If you had an old buddy crashing at your house, and was daily grilling up your meat supply, and was always sprawled out on your couch drinking Jack Daniels and your Apollinaris mineral water watching MTV, THAT would be a parasite.
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Everyone I knew growing up that had childhood asthma, grew up around second-hand smoke.
I had asthma when I was young and it was not due to second hand smoke.
My 5 year old girl gets asthma from swimming in chlorine poisoned swimming pools.
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Its not a single or necessary cause, like many diseases, its officially linked to environment and genetics. Environmental being any kind of low air quality, traffic pollution, or ozone, as well as things like asbestos. The point is, that almost all the people on my block who's parents smoked, had to carry around an inhaler whereas other people (including myself) that breathed the same air and went to the same schools did not, not that everyone who smokes or has been around smoke develops asthma.
gets or got? unless you are talking about symptoms asthma as a condition isn't something that comes and goes. It's cureable, similar to allergies, if one cured their asthma, this would mean being unaffected by aggravators.
but this was about smoking being a preventative.
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I think we should really put in effort to choose the PC (paleo correct) term symbiote from now on. ....
That's probably a good idea. When someone says "Aren't you afraid of parasites?" maybe we could respond, "You mean symbiotes/symbionts?"
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My understanding is that the common use of parasite is a foreign critter that actually feeds off of you and what you eat, but that some things labeled parasites actually will assist in breakdown of food or decaying matter and other internal function much in the same way one can connote 'bacteria' in different ways. I think a tapeworm would probably be the most common image one could think of -of the first. I havn't listened to the radio show, but my impression, is that if you arn't eating a diet that creates all kinds of gut fermentation and other bi-products of poor diet, are full of sugar and carbohydrate, not to mention an alkaline environment that actually harbors such things, than many of the really pathogenic variety will have shortened lifespans.
heres a brief excerpt from the typical paranoia
http://www.zhealthinfo.com/parasites.htm
" Here is a list of ways parasites can get into your body: shaking hands, sharing someone else's soda can, kissing (even on the cheek), intimate sexual contact and believe or not, you can get parasites by inhaling dust which contains the dried form of these organisms. You can get parasites from drinking the water of any of the thousands of lakes, rivers, streams and creeks in North America. Giardia Lambia, which causes Giardia, is very common, for example.
You can get parasites from eating meat. Do you really think government inspectors are able to inspect every animal that goes to the slaughterhouse? Another source of parasites is salads. Dr. Brooks estimates that the overall incidence of E. Histolytic in the United States is between 3.9% and 10%.
The distressing thing about parasites is that if you get rid of them, you can easily be reinfected. "
so basically even to the parasite propagandists, they are everywhere, and even with the countless efforts it takes to rid yourself of them, you probably still have them and you'll probably still get them.
"As if it wasn't bad enough to have an uninvited guest living in your body, the parasites eat your nutrients before you do! They get the best nutrients, and you get the scraps and leftovers. They grow healthy and fat, yet your organs and skin starve for nutrition. What's more, parasites can remain in your body for 10, 20 or even 30 years. "
So when there is not much dead and decaying tissue in your body and parasite-friendly food source and they've done their service, there really isn't much for them to reak havoc on, and so there shouldn't be much of a lifespan. But this may not be true for all types. For instance when we examine a wild situation and whether animals in addition to their existing load that can become harmful and lead to breakdown and death. The only info I can find so far is that both plants and animals can actually become more tolerant in this same fashion, but that certain parasites CAN slow or stress animals, some saying that certain captive animals will live longer, but that there is always some relationship of 10's even 100's of types of what me might call parasites at all times.
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http://www.nwtf.org/conservation/bulletins/No26-Parasites_Bulletin.pdf
In this article on Wild Turkey it suggest a myriad of problems (although none seemingly too severe) that can occur with certain types - or simply heavy loads - of parasites (cool pics too). and how they develop and infect the animal.
The end is interesting in that it recommends cooking of course to kill any remaining parasites, but that most remain in the organs, and many are "host specific, or require at least a bird host", so you gotta wonder how much truth (especially w/muscle meats) there is to even having transferable parasites, or what affect even natural farming might have on cultivation of human-threatening bugs.
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One problem I've heard of is that, most animals we would eat would naturally have an alkaline, or at least more alkaline stomach than ours, so things that had adapted to live in/past their stomachs would be destroyed in ours, and have no selective pressure to adapt to ours. However, I heard that cattle fed on grain had a stomach pH more similar to ours, more acidic than if they ate their natural herbivorous diet. Whilst this could mean that humans eating grain would now have an acidic stomach similar to the cattle, would the humans eating only raw meat have an even more acidic stomach so it 'doesn't matter'?
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the last bit on farming, I wasn't just speaking of grain farming, but that animals taken from the wild, especially over centuries, might not have the healthy balance/resistance. but this is total speculation based on the little I have read. And that all wild animals eating their natural diet, will have some level of symbiotic organisms, and probably some amount of at least moderately harmful parasites.
I really don't know about thriving in the alkaline of the animal, and whether acid would be a total deterrent. But I don't think raw meat would necessarily be linked with being high acid. Although if we are speaking of increased HCL or stomach health in general that should be a deterrent to some types it seems.
there I was referencing traditional parasite warnings, which also speak against sugars and a too alkaline stomach (basically from a hardcore veg diet that doesn't include fermented foods etc...) which is ironic, if one can get these from kissing babies and eating salads, that these types might do well to alter their stomach PH if they are doing any other intensive parasite removal.