Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet to Suit You => Carnivorous / Zero Carb Approach => Topic started by: shannon on August 28, 2010, 06:28:51 pm
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i know i seem clueless right now, forgive me. can someone give me some examples of animal fats beside egg yolk. -\
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Raw marrow, raw suet, raw tongue, raw brains. Otherwise raw dairy(non-palaeo , though). But raw fat exists also in raw muscle-meats, especially in the fattier kind such as raw mutton.
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Also raw back fat and raw eggs.
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Don't worry. I was like you too. I used to be billed as a vegan chef. I knew so much about food. I still don't know much about meat cuts though. Most I learned here on this forum. I have no idea when I go to the butcher. I stick to cuts or words I know, like steak, shoulder, leg ..
But raw fat exists also in raw muscle-meats, especially in the fattier kind such as raw mutton.
I would rather eat mutton than lamb. I love lamb. I never minded the greasiness although many non-paleo people do mind that. I would love to try mutton. I heard it has much less fat than lamb though. Also that sheep have much lower carbs in their livers than other ruminant animals have in theirs. That might be important if you want to be very low carb.
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thanks! yeah, i really like lamb ;D
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I would love to try mutton. I heard it has much less fat than lamb though.
I'd love to try it, too, but there is zero demand (the seller said) so I can't find it. Don't animals in general have more fat when they age, however?
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Human baby.
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Human baby.
Is that an answer to my question or a suggestion for raw animal fat? :D
OK, I got it -[
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I would rather eat mutton than lamb. I love lamb. I never minded the greasiness although many non-paleo people do mind that. I would love to try mutton. I heard it has much less fat than lamb though. Also that sheep have much lower carbs in their livers than other ruminant animals have in theirs. That might be important if you want to be very low carb.
Actually, raw mutton is fattier than raw lamb, by quite a bit.
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Actually, raw mutton is fattier than raw lamb, by quite a bit.
Can you get that easily in the UK? Seems to be quite traditional there.
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Can you get that easily in the UK? Seems to be quite traditional there.
Yes. It's nowadays frowned upon by the moronic public due to its extra fattiness and toughness, to the extent that the wonderful Prince Charles openly headed a "Mutton revival campaign). I get it from farmers' markets and it seems actually cheaper than raw lamb. However, mutton is only available on a seasonal basis, so I can't get it in the summer.
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Well, I can ask for fat trimmings in the in-store meat cutter/butcher thing at my grocery store, and they give me fat out of the barrel where they dump all the fat they trim off the meat cuts(which would eventually be thrown away, so they also give it to me for free). But it's all grain-fed commercial stuff, but I can't find any other source of fat otherwise. If you have a grass-fed butcher though, you could probably ask them for any fat trimmings they were going to throw away and get a whole bunch of them for free or at least very cheap.
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Raw marrow, raw suet, raw tongue, raw brains. Otherwise raw dairy(non-palaeo , though). But raw fat exists also in raw muscle-meats, especially in the fattier kind such as raw mutton.
May I revive this old thread and ask why dairy cream is not an optimal sourse of fat in Paleo diet? It contains little, if any, of the dairy sugar and dairy protein which some people are sensitive to.
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May I revive this old thread and ask why dairy cream is not an optimal sourse of fat in Paleo diet? It contains little, if any, of the dairy sugar and dairy protein which some people are sensitive to.
It still means that some people will react to the traces of lactose and casein therein. A quick google suggests that levels are not that low:-
"In theory, traditionally produced sweet butter and real cream should be low in lactose, since the milk sugar would normally remain in the whey, after separation, however practical experience shows that either the separation is incomplete or milk solids are added to the final product, elevating the lactose content beyond an acceptable level for my family. It is safer, and not much of a hardship to substitute margarine for butter and a soya based whipped topping for cream." http://www.telusplanet.net/public/ekende/lactose.htm (http://www.telusplanet.net/public/ekende/lactose.htm)
Some people who have problems with raw dairy have claimed that they did OK with raw butter. However, I'm suspicious of such claims.
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Tyler, Thank you for the article.
I have never had a problem with milk/dairy, whether raw or not. So will grass-fed raw cream from a local farm be a good source of animal fat for me?
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Tyler, Thank you for the article.
I have never had a problem with milk/dairy, whether raw or not. So will grass-fed raw cream from a local farm be a good source of animal fat for me?
I don't think it matters to consume raw dairy in a moderate way, if one has no symptoms from it. However, I wouldn't advise making it your one and only source of raw animal fat.
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I wouldn't advise making it your one and only source of raw animal fat.
Tyler, what is the reason that fat from raw dairy is not to be used as the main source of fat?
BTW, I also take in a good quantity of coconut oil (good source of saturated fat) and raw salmon.
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Tyler, what is the reason that fat from raw dairy is not to be used as the main source of fat?
BTW, I also take in a good quantity of coconut oil (good source of saturated fat) and raw salmon.
Well, I think even Aajonus states that the proteins in raw dairy and raw eggs are not as useful for rebuilding the body as those in raw muscle-meats.
There is another concern too. For example, some people who have had no problems with raw dairy at all re allergies have found that they got magnesium-deficiency from it(too much excess calcium in the diet can lead to magnesium-deficiency).
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.. I also take in a good quantity of coconut oil (good source of saturated fat) and raw salmon.
I did AV style raw fresh made coconut cream and salmon on this diet way before I got to marrow, brain, backfat and suet too.
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Well, I think even Aajonus states that the proteins in raw dairy and raw eggs are not as useful for rebuilding the body as those in raw muscle-meats.
There is another concern too. For example, some people who have had no problems with raw dairy at all re allergies have found that they got magnesium-deficiency from it(too much excess calcium in the diet can lead to magnesium-deficiency).
Thanks for answering, Tyler. It is good to know about proteins in dairy vs. proteins in muscle meats.
On the other hand, I would like to know about the "fat" part of dairy. In other words, is "fat" part of the dairy fine?
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I did AV style raw fresh made coconut cream and salmon on this diet way before I got to marrow, brain, backfat and suet too.
Hi, RawZi. So what is the difference between doing coconut cream/salmon and doing marrow/brain etc. in your experience?
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Joy coconut oil is fine in the interim and in a pinch, but most sources are not really raw, but are exposed to very high temps for drying and or processing and or transport. There may be some really raw sources out there, but I am not familiar with them. The problem comes because in order for it to be profitable they have to produce it on a large scale and so it must be dried fast before the meat spoils after extraction. To dry fast usually means very high heat, and most coconut oil producers will say so when pressed or will volunteer the info on their websites.
I used Nutiva's for a long time in raw egg, milk smoothies, but found it is not raw either. Not really anyway, maybe raw by their standards but not by a 105F or less standard.
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Some people who have problems with raw dairy have claimed that they did OK with raw butter. However, I'm suspicious of such claims.
Did you ever try raw butter? I was just curious, I know you mentioned having tried fermented dairy, but I couldn't remember if you had tried raw butter.
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Hi, Tyler. Did Aajonus explain why the proteins in raw dairy and raw eggs are not as useful for rebuilding the body as those in raw muscle-meats?
CitrusHigh, Yes I am aware that there is probably no raw coconut oil in the market. On the other hand, coconut oil is very stable and I think heating does not cause damage to its nutrients except for enzymes. I think all the “scientific” reports on the benefits of coconut oil are based on using non-raw coconut oil. So I would hope coconut oil is a good source of fat in general. I use coconut oil from Tropical Traditions. Their coconut oil is heated minimally following traditional methods.
Cherimoya, is your question for Tyler or for me? I have not tried raw butter. I would think raw dairy cream and raw butter are almost identical nutrition-wise.
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Cherimoya, is your question for Tyler or for me? I have not tried raw butter. I would think raw dairy cream and raw butter are almost identical nutrition-wise.
I was actually speaking to Tyler.
Cream and butter are not identical. Cream still has some carbs/lactose in it. Butter is pure fat.
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If you've never had raw animal fat straight - you're in for a treat (at least if you are like me). I rarely want meat - but I sure want fat! Marrow and suet are quite amazing.
Don't forget fatty fish like salmon. I love that stuff.
If you are willing to eat dairy make your own raw fermented butter and you will think you've gone to heaven.
Mmmmmmmm. Fat!
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Did you ever try raw butter? I was just curious, I know you mentioned having tried fermented dairy, but I couldn't remember if you had tried raw butter.
Yes I have tried raw butter. However, I was never able to get hold of it in the UK, only in Austria. I tried it on its own without other types of raw dairy for some weeks and did not notice any difference to other raw dairy products in its effect.
Raw butter does contain trace-levels of casein and lactose. Even ghee does. So people who are acutely allergic will still get a nasty reaction while those with only minor allergies to dairy sometimes have told me that they did fine with raw butter at first only for them to gradually experience slight health-problems a couple of years later until they cut out the raw butter completely from their diet.
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If you've never had raw animal fat straight - you're in for a treat (at least if you are like me). I rarely want meat - but I sure want fat! Marrow and suet are quite amazing.
Don't forget fatty fish like salmon. I love that stuff.
If you are willing to eat dairy make your own raw fermented butter and you will think you've gone to heaven.
Mmmmmmmm. Fat!
Dorothy, Thanks for responding. I have read much in this forum. A number of people said suet tastes like wax! Marrow gets better rating. Maybe one day I will try marrow. Is there any parasite warning about marrow?
I have eaten salmon sashimi for years. Right now I eat wild caught alaskan salmon daily. But a little research on wild salmon worries me. This site advises against wild salmon:
http://www.beyondsalmon.com/2006/10/parasites-in-fish-part-2-anisakis-and.html (http://www.beyondsalmon.com/2006/10/parasites-in-fish-part-2-anisakis-and.html)
Also:
"...the parasite destruction guarantee is accomplished by ‘freezing and storing seafood at -4°F (-20°C) or below for 7 days (total time), or freezing at -31°F (-35°C) or below until solid and storing at -31°F (-35°C) or below for 15 hours, or freezing at -31°F (-35°C) or below until solid and storing at -4°F (-20°C) or below for 24 hours’ which is sufficient to kill parasites."
Do you know if the frozen wild-caught alaskan salmon bought in the grocers has been frozen at this temperature? I think I may try to find out from the fish company. Also, do you know what is the lowest temperature our home freezer can get?
I love dairy. But I have read a number of less-than-positive comments on dairy in this forum. Otherwise I would just rely upon raw dairy.
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Hi, Tyler. Did Aajonus explain why the proteins in raw dairy and raw eggs are not as useful for rebuilding the body as those in raw muscle-meats?
No, he didn't. I just concur with him since my experience agrees with what he said re raw dairy and raw eggs. They seem to be fine for giving instant energy and for nutrition in general but not suitable for real repair work in the body.
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Tyler, may I ask what is meant by "rebuilding" or "real repair work in the body"? Does it refer to the day-to-day repairing (for everyone) or repair for major health problems?
BTW, it seems to me from reading this forum that red meat is emphasized often because it helps men to build big muscles and add weight. As a petite woman I am less motivated by that benefit.
I do want to figure out the most optimal diet for my health. I have been a raw vegan for a few years and this raw paleo diet is all new for me. Thank you for you help.
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I meant repair for major health problems.
I suppose it is logical to assume that eating raw muscles will help improve one's muscles in particular, that eating raw liver will help heal one's liver etc.. However the nutrients will help all parts of the body, ultimately.
All I know is that eating raw meats in general helped get rid of some very unnatural muscle-weakness/health-problem that I had in pre-RPD days. I also noticed that if I did weight-training on a rawpalaeodiet that my increased muscle-mass stayed on for longer than on a cooked diet. However, other than very slightly improved muscle-tone on a RPD diet, I did not notice any vastly increased muscle-mass on a rawpalaeodiet if I didn't do any exercise.So, I don't think you need to worry.
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BTW, it seems to me from reading this forum that red meat is emphasized often because it helps men to build big muscles and add weight. As a petite woman I am less motivated by that benefit.
I agree with much of what TD is saying. Its more of a health issue. There may be different temperaments (or whatever one word one wants to use) that do better with fish or fowl or red meats etc...but for many people ruminant meats are where its at for rebuilding health. Part of this is based on real world experience, part on theories of evolution, a "natural diet", tradition and so forth.
Most people that are having problems building muscle, odds are its because they are unhealthy. 'Healthy-ish' people generally can build skeletal muscle on any kind of proteins, even veg proteins. Many people (the males you are likely speaking of) likely restored there health over time to where they can start rebuilding healthy muscle on a raw diet without supplements, fillers, and other unhealthy habits. That is generally hard to do on veg proteins or other inferior proteins. At that point, whether one eats fish or red meat is probably not that relevant, or only to the extent as to how it effects the person's general health.
Odds are, raw red meats would be superior for growth (my vote anyway), but the point is is that these things are both related and yet totally independent things. Eating tons of animal protein won't miraculously grow your muscles.
Basically If one wanted to have no muscle definition, you may still prefer to eat 100% ruminant meat, or whatever variety of RAF you wished.
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Hi Joy, I'm not as lucky as many of the folks on this forum as I don't have much access to fresh unfrozen raw animal foods besides eggs and dairy. I slice suet frozen and eat it frozen and it has a very different texture that way - and I love it. I'm a fat monster though. I like eating plain butter and egg yollks. I look for things to put them on, but if I can't find anything - well - in it goes by itself. :D You never know until you try it for yourself. Try it frozen too though before knocking it. Marrow is wonderful if you get a good source - but honestly - I like suet better!
As far as freezing fish and parasites I learned that as long as it is frozen long enough at regular freezer temps it's perfectly free of parasites. Someone here might know more. But I have kind of an extreme attitude towards things. I feel like fish is so important for me that even if it did give me parasites I'd still eat it - I'd just take some good strong parasite killing herbs with it. I also trust that my body is strong enough to fight any parasite. It might be different for someone that is sick and weak and new to raw foods. But there's no fear of parasites at all for anyone with it sitting in the freezer for weeks. Those buggers are dead.
Welcome to a bigger wider tastier and healthier raw world Joy! Congratulations on making the leap.
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Tyler, Thanks for sharing your personal experience. May I ask how soon your health problems started to heal after you began eating raw red meats? (I am trying to get more motivation to eat red meat I guess.)
KD, Thanks for your explanation.
So I am trying raw grass-fed beef. For the past three days I could only manage to swallow about one oz. each day. I am trying another method: I am marinating it with some lemon juice and spices right now; hopefully I will find some good recipe to help me adapt to the taste of raw beef. Taste change is possible, right?
BTW, will you guys say that lightly cooked red meat is injurious to health? Is raw fish better than lightly cooked red meat in terms of healing the body?
Dorothy, Thanks for your encouragement. I do hope my taste will change soon.
Concerning fish, I did contact one fish company last night—Copper River Seafoods. Following is their speedy email reply:
“All of the fish that goes through our process that gets frozen before leaving our site meets the HACCP criteria that you stated below and is parasite free. With that said, we cannot guarantee if the vendor maintains those same numbers once it hits their facility. Our fresh/frozen fish is intended to be cooked before consumption for that very reason. There are two solutions to guarantee that there are no parasites once the consumer gets the product home: The fish can be ran through a hard freeze again by following the criteria stated below or the fish can be cooked to the recommended temperature.”
So now I feel very good about buying frozen fish packages from this company. My fear of parasites is not just for health reasons. I just feel it is very yucky to have live worms inside my body!
I have been focused on mastering raw red meat and I have not yet have the courage to get to raw animal fat yet. What is suet exactly? My dictionary told me that suet is the fat around kidneys. Does it taste different from the white fat inside and around grass-fed beef pieces sold at grocers like Whole Foods?
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Tyler, Thanks for sharing your personal experience. May I ask how soon your health problems started to heal after you began eating raw red meats? (I am trying to get more motivation to eat red meat I guess.)
Well, it all depends. By the time I had switched to a RVAF diet, I had developed something like 100 minor to major conditions, anything from anxiety to inflamed, reddened skin in some areas to chronic fatigue to chronic constipation etc. etc.. I had c. 80% of these conditions disappear after about 4 months after I cut out all raw dairy from my diet. The rest took anywhere up to 2 or 3 years to disappear. After that point I was more or less healed of specific health problems, but not necessarily on top form/perfect fitness as such for a time. But, after a couple more years, I was fine in all respects.
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Joy--you definitely can learn to enjoy the taste of raw beef. Don't force it on yourself, though. Find a definitely grass-fed source, and eat just a little at a time. I also recommend having fat with your meat. It's more nutritionally balanced, and it's more enjoyable to eat.
If you're going to cook your meat, I'd recommend only steaming it. High-temperature methods tend to create toxins, and make the meat less digestible.
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Tyler. Thank you for your response. Wow, raw dairy indeed did not do you any good! Did you have any immediate discomfort after consuming raw dairy which told you that raw dairy was not good for your health? (Raw dairy and raw salmon/scallops are my main stay right now. But if raw dairy is indeed not good, I will consider doing without it.)
What is RVAF diet? It does not mean Raw Vegetable And Fruit diet, does it? (I guess you would not say Raw Vegan diet has healed you of all health problems on this Paleo forum.) May I ask what your diet was before RVAF?
Cherimoya, Thank you for your encouragement. Since so many people in this forum love raw red meat, I guess there is a good chance I will learn to enjoy it. I get grass-fed beef from my local Whole Foods. I take in a good amount of coconut oil and dairy cream. I plan to master red meat before I tackle raw suet/marrow. One task at a time.
I saw grass-fed bison sold at grocers. It is a bit pricy. Will you guys say bison is a good source of red meat?
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The really sad thing was that, during my childhood, I did have one obvious sign of dairy allergy in that I would often have my sinuses blocked with snot. I ended up often wiping my nose with handkerchiefs. My parents etc. thought this was "normal".
Well, anyway, all this taught me a powerful lesson once I went rawpalaeo, and that was to never trust any person in authority on anything unless my own experience in life was in line with what they said.
As regards "RVAF" diets, that means "Raw Vegetable and Animal Food diets".
Re past diets:-
Like a lot of people here, I saw this diet as a last resort after having tried every other possible diet out there, barring Breatharianism and the Macrobiotic Diet, I think. I had tried Atkins/low-carb diets, the Hay Diet, the cooked-palaeolithic diet, Raw Vegan and Fruitarian diets, various diets like the SCD diet, the Mediterranean Diet and endless variations/modifications of the SMD diet etc. etc.
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Tyler, thank you. Your former (unsuccessful) experience with so many diets gives me good hope that raw paleo diet must have merits. I will give it a try.
Was your cooked Paleolithic diet experience no good at all?
I have found marinated beef tastes quite alright. I will up my intake of beef and see what happens.
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Was your cooked Paleolithic diet experience no good at all?
It had no effect whatsoever. The stomach-aches I got from eating any cooked animal foods at the time meant that a diet high in cooked meats was a disaster. I also got chronic constipation after eating any cooked animal foods.
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Will you guys say bison is a good source of red meat?
If it's grass-fed and grass-finished.
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Tyler, thank you for sharing your experience of cooked meat diet. I definitely will not try that diet now.
It is wonderful that you have found RVAF works for you. I hope I will have success with it too.
What raw vegetables are good for health? Some people on this forum seem to be against all vegetables and some are against fruits to a large degree. It is somewhat confusing to me.
Cherimoya, thanks for your response. What if the beef/bison/bone marrow is from a herd that is grass-fed on pasture but is grain-finished (fed with grain mixed with grass the last couple months before slaughter to fatten the herd)? That is the only kind of bone marrow so far I could find at local grocers. As to beef/bison, my local Whole Food/Sprouts stores label just says “grass-fed.” I do not know if it is grass-finished. If I cannot find grass-fed and grass-finished stuff, I guess grass-fed and grain-finished (for the last couple months) is not that bad?
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You will likely have to get in the habit of talking to the producers or at least the meat dept. peoples. I have a close relationship with the meat dept. people at all my local co-ops and specialty meat markets. They know I'm the 100% grass fed guy and not to try and sell me anything grain fed.
As for the last couple weeks/months finishing on grain, you can look up charts on the web that show what happens to the nutrient profile as you feed grains. It only takes a couple of weeks to ruin years worth of grass feeding. Annoyingly enough it takes a year or so to reverse it the other direction. I'm not sure exactly why this is, but the point is, the label should say 100% grass fed, if it doesn't, then there's a possibility that they were grain finished. Ask the meat department and don't quit until they convince you one way or the other. If they sound unsure, then they are unsure and you need to go over their heads.
Grain finished is that bad, I wouldn't touch it unless you have no other alternatives...<----- this is almost never the case.
You have to decide which veggies are good for you. Everyone is different, you'll have to find which ones give you energy/healing and which ones cause you digestive discomfort. Don't ever rule anything out, as you heal you may be able to digest things you couldn't earlier, so it's ok to try a vegetable again later even if it doesn't work for you now. No one can decide what is good for you, we can only give you some general guidelines and explain the fundamentals, then you have to choose the rest for yourself based on your results.
There's a lot to learn and it looks like you are on your way. Don't give up!
Look in to the weston A price foundation if you haven't already, they will explain what makes traditional foods, at least for livestock...ie ruminants eat grass/leaves only, fowl and pigs should get a variety of foods including meats/bugs/grass/seeds, etc...
To understand what I'm saying, a rattlesnake's natural diets is snakes, frogs, small rodents and rabbits. If you were raising snakes as livestock, you would want to buy the snakes at the grocery store that were eating these things, not snakes that were fed milk or tomatoes, that would be unnatural and produce unhealthy meat. Obviously you're not going to probably be buying snakes for food, this is just an example to see the underlying principle at work. Each animal, including us, has a range of natural foods that promote natural, healthful development. When that diet is deviated from, you begin to get dis-ease, both in the animal being fed that, and then the animals that eat them.
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What if the beef/bison/bone marrow is from a herd that is grass-fed on pasture but is grain-finished... As to beef/bison, my local Whole Food/Sprouts stores label just says “grass-fed.” I do not know if it is grass-finished. If I cannot find grass-fed and grass-finished stuff, I guess grass-fed and grain-finished (for the last couple months) is not that bad?
I will echo CH's "No!" to grass-fed/grain-finished. It's a shame they do this to satisfy consumer demand for marbled muscle meats. Don't be discouraged in your search for grass-fed beef. Think of it has a scavenger hunt - what you are looking for is out there. I've been eating RPD since last April. I went to a lot of different butcher departments before I found one that suits many of my needs. Even so, I've only been able to get brain once. I'm still working on getting a fresh whole liver. My alternate sources are very expensive and inconvenient, so I buy from them only occasionally. It's okay - our paleolithic predecessors didn't always make the kill after their exhaustive hunting efforts, either.
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Grain-finished is crap. Period.
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Thanks to all who informed me that grain-finished stuff is unacceptable. Sigh! Why would they do that!
There's a lot to learn and it looks like you are on your way. Don't give up!
I thought I learned everything about the ultimate diet--raw vegan!
Thanks to all again for the info and encouragement.
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I usually avoid raw vegetables. I do occasionally eat the tastier ones such as carrots, radishes, seaweed and lettuce. I avoid tasteless stuff such as broccoli. The way I see it, if it's tasteless; it's a warning from the plant not to eat it.
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Joy - I think I'm one of the few people here for whom produce works well - I eat very little meat actually - most of my diet is raw fruits, vegetables and seeds. The way that I eat ground meat is I make my tiny meatball size helping of ground meat into something that's like a bird's nest and in the middle I put an egg yolk and some salt and pepper. The egg yolk changes everything for me. I eat just this little bit once every week or two. That's it. That's all my body wants. If I try to force myself to eat more - it tastes really bad to me - but if I eat the amount my body wants it's delightful.
Since you are coming from raw vegan (I was mostly raw and a vegan for a decade or so - the then vegetarian for another decade or so - so I have a good sense of the issues) another suggestion I have for you is to get a nice cut of grass-fed and slice it paper thin - into the thinnest sashimi you can muster. It tastes differently and when I first tried meat it was a way for me to do it that was more like sashimi fish - kinda melts in your mouth.
Also - I suggest that you go slow and don't do more than appeals to you. Everyone is different and how much you need might be different than others here and even if a lot might be good for later, a little might be all you can do at the beginning. It's ok. Just getting used to fish is a pretty big jump. I ate raw fish and dairy and eggs for years before I tried raw cow. I had to learn about grass-fed first and then that it was possible to eat it raw too. I keep on adding in new foods over time. It's a process - a fun process. Do what feels right. You're light years ahead adding the fish and eggs to your raw food diet.
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I usually avoid raw vegetables. I do occasionally eat the tastier ones such as carrots, radishes, seaweed and lettuce. I avoid tasteless stuff such as broccoli. The way I see it, if it's tasteless; it's a warning from the plant not to eat it.
So one just eats the raw vegetables appealing to one's taste. That is easy. :)
I was reading Ron Rosedale's article on insulin from Dr. Stanley Bass' website yesterday. He particularly recommends fiberous vegetables. He gives the example of broccoli. ;)
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Dorothy, thank you for your kind encouragement and ideas.
To my surprise, I have found marinated beef tastes alright. So now I will focu on eating beef for a while, since many on this forum feel red meat has the most healing power. I think eventually I will reintroduce fresh produce to my diet. But right now I want to find out asap if red meat could help bring me optimal health.
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Dorothy, thank you for your kind encouragement and ideas.
To my surprise, I have found marinated beef tastes alright. So now I will focu on eating beef for a while, since many on this forum feel red meat has the most healing power. I think eventually I will reintroduce fresh produce to my diet. But right now I want to find out asap if red meat could help bring me optimal health.
You never know until you try it right? Remember that how much fat you eat can affect how you do with the muscle meats. Some people here seem to have a hard time digesting produce and especially mixing produce with meat and if you have a health issue especially, perhaps your approach makes a good deal of sense.
There is a man here by the name of Lex and he has a journal. When I arrived here the person who introduced me to paleo suggested I read his journal - and I did. Fascinating. He eats nothing at all but meat/organs/fat - but he points out that many that try to eat all muscle meat do not do well. He eats a mix that includes the entire animal including all the organs and he thinks that makes a really big difference. He also thinks that the proper mix of fat to the mix is very important. If you are not going to eat any produce at all then I highly suggest you read his journal. You would be attempting what is called a ketogenic diet and it would be good for you to know about what you might experience by researching it more. I tried eating all muscle meat without the organs and not as much fat and it felt totally wrong to me in a way that was so extreme that it felt like it was more than just "me". Eating the entire animal and enough fat seems to be a critical detail if you are going to be eating an all meat diet from what I've read here. Others probably can help you with more than me - I just want to put out a little warning to you not to eat just marinated muscle meat exclusively without having all the information you might need.
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Dorothy, thanks for warning. What is the reason fat is so important? I would think eating fat would add fat to my body, which I do not really need. I do take in dairy cream and coconut oil. But I am just thinking about cutting out dairy cream for the time being (while I am consuming beef so that I will know for sure if beef is good for me) because a number of people on this forum warn against dairy.
I guess I am not ready for organs right now. I will master beef first. As for animal fat, even the little white fat inside chuck beef is not tasty to me right now. Maybe after a while I could develop a taste for animal fat.
I buy fresh grass-fed chuck beef at Whole Foods because it is the least expensive cut ($7 a pound). The beef is not chewable. I end up swallow it. (I ask WH to slice it into thin slices for me.) I do not feel indigestion after swallowing it. Is it alright?
There are other cuts. I am willing to pay a little bit more for chewable cuts. What other cuts are chewable?
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What is the reason fat is so important? I would think eating fat would add fat to my body, which I do not really need.
Dorothy is absolutely right, most people who try zero carb will tell you that fat is essential. Eating protein alone will lead to protein poisoning. However, there is some debate about how much fat is needed. Lex eats 70-80% of calories from fat it seems. If you were eating some veg or even a small amount of fruit you would not need such a high proportion of fat, but with zero carb a high proportion of fat is essential. You will get some fat from lean meats but probably not enough. You can get adequate fat from eating a range of fatty cuts of meat, organs and overt fats such as bone marrow and suet. Fat is so important because it's a source of energy, fat-soluble vitamins, and essential fatty acids.
Eating fat will not make you fat unless you are eating far above your requirements. Fat storage has more to do with your hormones like insulin. Sugars and starches are what make us fat by raising our insulin levels.
All meats are chewable! Chuck is quite a tough meat but not as tough as two of my favourite cuts, brisket and shin. Buffalo brisket and shin are even more delectable than beef. Eating them is quite straightforward, I just chop them up into bite size pieces, chew a little (the flavour is delicious) and swallow. The part you can't chew is collagen but if it is cut up small there is no problem to swallow it.
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Mark, thank you for taking time to write to advise me. I learned about rabbit starvation from this forum. I certainly do not want protein poisoning.
I read somewhere that for a ketogenic diet 150 grams of protein a day is minimum. A pound of chuck beef has about 90 grams of protein, so does a pound of pink salmon. So I think if I keep my consumption of beef/salmon under 2 pounds (and add coconut oil/dairy cream as I need) I should be safe. Is that right?
Thank you for letting me know that brisket and shin are even tougher than chuck beef. So I will avoid these two cuts until I advance in the school of raw paleo diet. ;)
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Hi Joy,
Believe it or not almost all cuts are chewable if you slice them thin enough. You need a very sharp knife and precise hands though.
But bolting your meat - the people here say is fine. It's what my dogs do! It's really only for carbs that we need to chew well because of the amylase (enzyme that breaks down carbs) in the saliva. Raw meat needs much less to digest so tearing and swallowing like a carnivore works fine believe it or not.
Raw fat truly does not make you fat. That's just part of the "big lie" we all have been fed.
Besides, I really only care about saving your kidneys - making sure you feel good during your transition and that you get healthier and healthier. How big or small you are counts little - that's also just part of the big lie of how attractive you are as being based on your size - especially for women. What really counts is making sure you do well on this diet so that you can grow healthier and healthier over time. That's where real beauty comes from.
The last thing any of us need is to get sick just because we got a bit too excited and didn't have enough knowledge quite yet. There is a learning and adjustment curve. If our society was healthy we would all grow up with this basic knowledge - but because our society is sick - we need to take the time to learn. This place shortens the learning curve dramatically - but there still is one.
There are a good many folk here that have done zero carb in earnest for many years. Doing it wrong even one day as a healthy person that has been into raw foods for decades - it took me weeks to get over that one day experiment physically. If you are in any way not in ideal health - please listen to the guidance of those that have already done the experimenting for you and who can guide you around the pitfalls. Just because you don't like raw animal fat and organs yet does not mean that you can go ahead with an all muscle meat diet and be successful.... and you might not quite understand what experimenting with these kinds of things can do to your health long-term. As powerful and quick the healing can be with diet, so can be the destruction if not done with prudence.
Take the time to learn ways to make the whole animal enjoyable, how to increase your raw animal fat intake so that it tastes/feels good and THEN delve completely into a muscle meat ketogenic diet. Don't put the cart before the horse. That's my sincere opinion - take it or leave it - for what it's worth.
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Joy I repeatedly refer people to Dr. Ron Rosedale's writings to understand the relationship of fat to protein in a very low carb diet. I think too many make the mistake of ingesting too much protein. Rosedale tells you why you don't want to make that mistake long term.
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Dorothy, thank you for taking time to help me out. My major goal indeed is optimal health. I am fine with my weight; I am just not eagerly looking forward to putting on fat.
I am putting my “beef” experiment on hold now. (I still feel happy that I have found marinated beef palatable, considering I did not even like pricy steaks in the past.) I do want to do more research. Actually these past 20 days I have spent every evening reading on this forum. People’s testimonials are motivating. I would like to read more science-based studies/theories. But I do not know whom I may trust. Google “raw paleo diet” does not produce much material. And “experts” often hold different views…
WF told me today their electric meat slicer is broken. When it is fixed, they will slice my meat “really thin.” I will see. I have found all my knives very dull in dealing with raw beef, although they were very adequate in my raw vegan days. Is there a brand of knives you recommend? I have some fear about using sharp knives though. Years ago I gave away my very sharp knife because I felt intimidated by it.
I just found out you live in the same city as I do! So where do you find raw grass-fed bone marrow in Austin? I tried WH and Wheatsville. No success.
Van, thanks for recommending Dr. Ron Rosedale. I did go to his website to read his writing.
In his “The good, the bad, and the ugly of protein,” Dr. Rosedale talks about his idea for protein intake:
“Certainly above 1 gram [of protein] per kilogram of lean mass is probably high. Most people, I’ll put on .7 or .75 grams per kilogram of lean body mass. But if I’ve got a diabetic, and I really want to reverse their aging, which means reverse their diabetes, because diabetes is a model of aging, I’ll put them down to .5 or .6 grams per kilogram of lean body mass per day.”
By that standard, a man with 50 kilogram of lean body mass is to take in less than 40 grams of protein a day. That is less than ½ pound of lean beef. It seems to me a good number of members on this forum are eating way above this amount?
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hmm. Not sure who these 50 kg lean mass males are but yeah Rosedale's recommendation (as listed here) is certainly extra low.
Somewhere between that and the massive amounts of protein many people choose to eat is probably right for you. If you are not sedentary its likely further from this range above. Take into account this is in reference to a diet designed to run on ketones/fatty acids. Even so, the way I understand it, some protein will be converting to glucose regardless so more is often needed. Also the liver and other organs can deteriorate rapidly on low-protein diets so I don't understand how 50 g or less would be ideal to produce adequate glucose or reverse aging.
The lowered protein, way high fat that some people do, may or may not apply to people that eat higher carb, higher protein diets. However, despite what one would think about our ancestry, eating lots of muscle meat in particular (free of fat, organ, collagen, and other aspects of whole animals) is likely not good and represents a boat-load of not only unbalanced macro-nutrients, but dietary amino acids and internal hormones. This is in addition to being linked to other oft proposed issues of excess unused protein.
I would stick with at least 70-100 g a day (which one basically can achieve on a low-fat high carb whole foods diet adequate in calories) and cap off at the point that protein is in excess of structural and exercise needs which likely won't be higher than 1 g per lb unless you are super active/muscle hog etc...
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lets say the LBM is more like 70 kg and therefore "desired" protein is 50 g (or less)
200 g deer meat
250 g suet
10 g wild goose liver
yields a diet with ~ 50 g of protein, 2400 cals, and 91% fat.
bon appetite :/
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Dorothy, thank you for taking time to help me out. My major goal indeed is optimal health. I am fine with my weight; I am just not eagerly looking forward to putting on fat.
I am putting my “beef” experiment on hold now. (I still feel happy that I have found marinated beef palatable, considering I did not even like pricy steaks in the past.) I do want to do more research. Actually these past 20 days I have spent every evening reading on this forum. People’s testimonials are motivating. I would like to read more science-based studies/theories. But I do not know whom I may trust. Google “raw paleo diet” does not produce much material. And “experts” often hold different views…
WF told me today their electric meat slicer is broken. When it is fixed, they will slice my meat “really thin.” I will see. I have found all my knives very dull in dealing with raw beef, although they were very adequate in my raw vegan days. Is there a brand of knives you recommend? I have some fear about using sharp knives though. Years ago I gave away my very sharp knife because I felt intimidated by it.
I just found out you live in the same city as I do! So where do you find raw grass-fed bone marrow in Austin? I tried WH and Wheatsville. No success.
Van, thanks for recommending Dr. Ron Rosedale. I did go to his website to read his writing.
In his “The good, the bad, and the ugly of protein,” Dr. Rosedale talks about his idea for protein intake:
“Certainly above 1 gram [of protein] per kilogram of lean mass is probably high. Most people, I’ll put on .7 or .75 grams per kilogram of lean body mass. But if I’ve got a diabetic, and I really want to reverse their aging, which means reverse their diabetes, because diabetes is a model of aging, I’ll put them down to .5 or .6 grams per kilogram of lean body mass per day.”
By that standard, a man with 50 kilogram of lean body mass is to take in less than 40 grams of protein a day. That is less than ½ pound of lean beef. It seems to me a good number of members on this forum are eating way above this amount?
Joy - you're an Austinite! Wow. One day we will have to meet. We can go to my favorite Mexican Restaurant to enjoy some raw ceviche together. :D Hecho en Mexico - so good!
I have found grass-fed marrow bones at the farmer's market - but they were not good. Maybe in the spring there will be better. The farmer's market are the best place to get grass-fed in the city that I've been able to find so far - but I have to admit that I haven't searched as much as I could. I won't eat the WF meat myself. There are some good vendors at the farmer's market at other times of year for lamb, bison, wild boar, beef and more... but they are all pre-frozen. Generally right now I am getting deliveries from Slankers which is North of us but still in Texas. They have ground meat that includes the organs which is the only way I can tolerate eating organs and I buy their dog and cat food to feed my pets as they are the only place I've found that grinds the whole animal. It's where Lex - the man with the journal that eats only meat/organs/fat that I told you about gets his meat. He eats their dog food! The marrow bones from Slankers are a bit long - but I can still get the marrow out with a thin knife.... but it's their suet I love... but I might be a bit unique loving suet. Central Market is where we shop most and they have a packaged organic grass-fed ground meat that I like a lot there. What part of town are you in?
I just saw in a store this week these gloves that you can put on that will prevent you from getting cut by a sharp knife. Sharp knives are supposed to be safer because you don't have to push so hard to slice so you can be more in control. I got a set of Avolon knives from Costco. They are not your best brand of course but there was no beating them for the price they were at Costco and they are lovely to look at. I just use the sharpener that comes with the set to sharpen up the knife well before slicing fish or meat. Raw vegan you don't need anything sharp - but raw paleo you really do. I think those gloves might have been at Bed, Bath and Beyond.
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I found a video for you of someone using cut-resistant gloves that might help you to feel more secure about trying them.
Cut Resistant Gloves Demostration (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_Wm9xX5O2o#)
Williams and Sonoma have them
http://www.williams-sonoma.com/products/microplane-cut-resistant-glove/ (http://www.williams-sonoma.com/products/microplane-cut-resistant-glove/)
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KD, thanks for your input.
Rosedale says carbo is not necessary but his diet guideline does permit carbo foods. I think he advocates ketogenic diet but not zero carb diet.
The book in the following link (recommended by someone on this forum) talks about ketogenic diet. On page 109 it says 150 grams of protein should be taken on the first three weeks of a ketogenic diet; it seems to have something to do with protein being converted to glucose with 58% efficiency to meet the body’s glucose need. Later the protein intake is to be lowered a little bit.
http://books.google.ee/books?id=JtCZBe-2XVIC&lpg=PA79&ots=dMPLh6GQFE&dq=ketogenic%20diet%20nicotine&hl=en&pg=PA115&output=embed (http://books.google.ee/books?id=JtCZBe-2XVIC&lpg=PA79&ots=dMPLh6GQFE&dq=ketogenic%20diet%20nicotine&hl=en&pg=PA115&output=embed)
So “experts” differ on protein needs. I wish I would just be told exactly what to eat to achieve optimal health. Science is very confusing to a literature major like me.
Dorothy, what is the reason you do not like WF? I thought they have the highest quality foods.
I am 10 minutes’ drive from Central Market. A few months ago I was told by the meat department there they do not carry grass-fed beef. I stay away from ground meat at grocers as I read some articles saying that sometimes alien stuff gets mixed into ground stuff.
“Sharp knives are supposed to be safer because you don't have to push so hard to slice so you can be more in control.” That makes sense. I do not have a Costco card any more as I do not really buy much of the stuff they carry. Up to one month ago I just bought fresh organic produce at grocers. I bet I could ask a salesperson at a department store to help me find a sharp knife. And thank you for giving me the idea of wearing a glove while using a sharp knife. That shall really help preserve my hands.
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The following advice is from Dr. Rosedale:
"Some examples of good fats include: raw nuts such as almonds, walnuts, pecans, pine and macadamia, olives and olive oil and especially coconut oil and ghee.
Fish (oil), cod liver (oil), and flax oil are great to supplement with but should not be used in cooked foods."
http://drrosedale.com/healthplan.htm (http://drrosedale.com/healthplan.htm)
Any comment?
Particularly, is there any objection to Macadamia nuts?
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Joy - it seems to me that it all depends on the quality of the ground beef. Grass-fed is really a whole different animal (pun intended). Central market started to carry grass-fed in their case but they always sold out and it doesn't look like they are selling it any more. What I buy is wrapped and I'm not sure the staff even realizes what it is. It's often also sold out - especially after I happen to shop. ;)
I bought ground beef from WF and it was red on the outside and brown on the inside and it tasted truly awful to me - something wrong. I don't take any chances. Something looks or tastes bad - I won't eat it. Generally - I prefer to buy locally from the farmer's market or have delivered from the Slankers farm here in Texas. The staff at WF was not knowledgeable at all about their grass-fed meats when I was asking, whereas when I go to the farmer's market I can talk straight to the farmer that raised the animal. They love telling me all the details. WF couldn't even tell me if their meat was grain finished or not. It's too big of a chain. At the farmer's market I can look the farmer right in the face and ask them exactly what is in their ground beef. I can buy only from farmers I know I trust. That packaged meat from Central Market though always tastes and feels so good that I know there's nothing nasty in it. I have come to really trust my nose, my tastebuds and my intuition.... but I have been practicing such things for a very, very long time.
If you did want to buy something from Costco you could use my card... but make sure you would want a whole set like they sell. Maybe all you want is just one really good knife. Sometimes that's better. There's a Costco right near me so I tend to buy lots of things from them. I like their return policy. But again - sometimes it's so much nicer buying from a small specialty shop.
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Dorothy, thank you for your generosity. But I guess I just need one knife at this time.
Which farmer's markets do you recommend? If you do not mind, maybe you could even tell me which farmers you trust.
Maybe I will try Central Market's grass fed ground beef some day. It is great you have developed good intuition concerning animal foods and you are willing to share info. I am very good at selecting sweetest fruits...Alas this skill may not very useful now.
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KD, thanks for your input.
Rosedale says carbo is not necessary but his diet guideline does permit carbo foods. I think he advocates ketogenic diet but not zero carb diet.
The book in the following link (recommended by someone on this forum) talks about ketogenic diet. On page 109 it says 150 grams of protein should be taken on the first three weeks of a ketogenic diet; it seems to have something to do with protein being converted to glucose with 58% efficiency to meet the body’s glucose need. Later the protein intake is to be lowered a little bit.
http://books.google.ee/books?id=JtCZBe-2XVIC&lpg=PA79&ots=dMPLh6GQFE&dq=ketogenic%20diet%20nicotine&hl=en&pg=PA115&output=embed (http://books.google.ee/books?id=JtCZBe-2XVIC&lpg=PA79&ots=dMPLh6GQFE&dq=ketogenic%20diet%20nicotine&hl=en&pg=PA115&output=embed)
So “experts” differ on protein needs. I wish I would just be told exactly what to eat to achieve optimal health. Science is very confusing to a literature major like me.
There is a difference but the point is - is that even on a diet with 30, or 50 g from carb sources that you are talking well over an 80% fat diet with that little protein, particularly as calorie needs goes up.
I hear you on the "what to believe" thing, it is indeed all very confusing. If you aren't diabetic or in need of rapid de-aging I would still suggest a higher minimum (particularly before you commit to any kind of keto diet anyway). To look at it naturally, I just listed a few foods that would cap off even for those little active calories (surely would be higher in nature). Therefore, getting any less in a way is very unatural if one thinks about it + if one can get that much protein from whole plant foods.
The only way this is acheived is by including those extremly high fat percentages. I guess what I am saying is that many people you were speaking of with extremely high fat percentages (and with already lowered protein I imagine) would find <50 g of protein to be a problem on a ketogenic or low carb diet.
Currently I would stick with Lyle over this quote from Rosedale. Maybe this isn't exactly what he recommends anyway. I've looked at Rosedale's stuff over the years and theres always a disconnect for me. Alot of it - like typical low carb sites - is about how many low carb muffins one can eat. Its good news (for me) about his studies and results or whatever, but when you look at the actual 'program' it just makes no sense even in contrast to how many other people run a ketogenic diet. Like nuts and oils over animal fats..For one. Also one of the main things people seem to do on a diet that heavily restricts carbs is to INCREASE their protein, as your body does indeed need something to manufacture basic glucose from. This is covered (I believe) in Lyle's book.
As per the example, most people would think the 70-80% fat with the rest protein and some carbs is already quite extreme. 90/7/3 or whatever seems highly suspicious (to me) as calories go well over 2000.
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I'm not sure Joy if I remember the names of the vendors. I've never gone to the northern farmer's markets just the one down south and the one in town. The one in town often will have more variety. There used to be a woman that sold duck eggs at the one in town that weren't washed that were unbelievable but then she started selling at central market and Wheatsville so didn't have enough for the market - but I've never seen hers at the stores - I think they sell out or something. I miss them so much that I'm going to buy some ducks to raise for myself. I spent a good long time researching just that today on the internet. Her farm is called Munkebo. If you see those you might want to try them.
There is a guy that sells grass-fed lamb at both those markets. Loncito - that's it! That ground meat is superb! All his meat is superb... and I really trust him. I know he does things right.
There are a couple of bison vendors but I don't care much for bison it seems. I tried it from all the vendors. You might like to try it - but it's probably the most expensive meat choice at the farmer's market.
To tell you the truth I haven't found yet a vendor of ground beef at the market that I like as much as the stuff at Central Market. If you want someone to guide you to the very best of what's to offer at the fish counter - ask to talk to Ken.
I've stayed away from the markets most of the winter because the numbers of meat vendors really dwindled through that horrific drought and most ran out of supply by winter - but we are almost at spring - and there is now more grass than there has been in a long time - so I bet by spring there will be some good choices again.
This spring I'm planning on buying a whole animal from someone. By then maybe we could coordinate sharing something. Folks here have suggested getting some big parts and hanging them. I have a refrigerator in the garage that I plan on doing this with. Between that and getting a bunch ground for the animals I think I might be able to fit a whole cow - maybe - but definitely if I had someone to share it with.
Best of luck finding the ideal cutting knife! There is nothing better than a really good knife. One of my favorites believe it or not is my machete. I sharpen it to a razor edge and use it more than one would suspect. Make sure if you are getting only one knife that it is big enough to handle all of your jobs. You can still cut little things with a big knife, but you can't cut big things with a little knife.
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Dorothy, many thanks for the info about farmer’s markets and vendors and about a big knife. I will keep it in mind.
You must have a big house/freezer to be able to store a whole animal. My house/refrigerator is small. I may have to buy just small quantities of foods from grocers/vendors as I continue to do my research on an ideal diet and to taste new animal parts.
KD, if I understand you alright, your views are
(1) In a diet designed to run on ketones/fatty acids (i.e., ZC or VLC), some protein will be converting to glucose. So more protein is needed. However, protein need is not likely to be higher than 1 gram per lb of lean body mass.
(2) Dr. Rosedale’s studies are useful but his practical dietary program is far from ideal.
(3) Raw oils from vegetables are less health-promoting than raw animal fats.
Is my summary correct?
Will you point to some studies that support the idea that raw oil from vegetable source (e.g. soaked and dehydrated raw Macademia nuts/flax seeds/pumpkin seeds; certainly not cheap corn oil etc.) is less healthful than raw animal fat?
BTW, who is Lyle? What is his full name? Does he have a website?
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He's the author of the book you posted
1. Not sure and not sure anyone knows. Some amount of protein I believe converts to glucose. I thought this only happened on those particular diets myself but am under the impression now that it is always. Either way some is used AS protein and with say 30 g of carb, that is still not alot of glucose. Of course the point I guess is to run as much stuff off ketones as well. Anyway, there seems to be a consensus that protein should be minimized on these kind of diets (whether they contain some carbs or not) but not at what level. As for 1g per lb, I imagine for the majority of people there is no real need to eat any more protein than that (and possible damage regardless of diet although people may bite your face off for saying that ) and sometimes better off with - or requiring - less.
2. Maybe it is ideal. Just pulling from that basic value, it doesn't seem very practical or natural. I think if you asked most folk here who eat 'carnivorous' or keto they would say 40-50 g is too low. That is all.
3./B there has to be tons of that stuff on this site with links. On some crappy iPad right now. I'm sure paleophil or a few other people would love to comment on that. I'm pretty critical to many 'paleo' arguments, and even believe it's possible there is 'too much' omega 6 bashing or whatever but can't personally see how much of that stuff is really healthy or natural. Plus generally a lot of plant fat or other unsaturated fat goes rancid quick. Most of that stuff unrefined would have carbs attached that would kick out of ketosis if that is what mattered. Lots of interest in dietary plant food doesn't compute for me into interest in eating 80%+ fat.
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"(3) Raw oils from vegetables are less health-promoting than raw animal fats.
Is my summary correct?
Will you point to some studies that support the idea that raw oil from vegetable source (e.g. soaked and dehydrated raw Macademia nuts/flax seeds/pumpkin seeds; certainly not cheap corn oil etc.) is less healthful than raw animal fat?"
soaked and dehydrated macademia and nuts and other seeds are not really vegetable oils and most nut and seed oils are not taken from soaked and dehydrated seeds. A lot I think has to do with the method of extraction which most often involves heats and/or solvents and oxygenation. It's very different eating soaked and dehydrated seeds than pouring their oils that have been processed out of them on your food imho. You are also eating then the whole seed - which has other digestion factors involved.
Raw animal fats are so concentrated and digest so easily that they are very useful - especially to balance the omega 3 fatty acids that are in so many seeds. You see - most people get mostly omega 6's but when you are vegan or vegetarian and especially raw - the balance might be upside down from most people.
I personally eat both soaked and dehydrated nuts/seeds and animal fat (these days) and they seem to feed me in different ways. I used to be able to get really great corn oil for instance to provide me with good 6's but because of all the stupid scare and gmo's blah blah blah they took that good stuff off the market. But now that I have animal fats it doesn't matter like it used to for me. I have to eat a fraction of what I used to have to eat with animal fats included in my diet. BTW - that's why I have so much space. I used to have to buy a ridiculous amount of food to keep me going so had to get a second full-size fridge if I wasn't going to be at the store all the time. Now I can use that second fridge for primarily meat storage and my first fridge inside is half empty. Most people think having a full fridge feels abundant - I used to feel like I was a slave to food - with two fridges packed up so high I couldn't find things easily without digging and needing constant expensive restocking. Now I can see everything I have and feel more abundant with an more empty fridge with more dense foods in it. I store my seeds always in the fridge btw. Keeps the oils fresher... and especially so after soaking and dehydrating. I make a big bunch at once so they are always available.
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KD, thanks for your response which gives me food for thought.
BTW, when I said Rosedale’ dietary program is less than ideal, I was referring to his promoting/allowing cooked foods.
I am just not sure if his very low protein/carb idea is ideal: I do not know if the scientific knowledge (about how protein and carb function in the body) in his writing is truly correct. I would like to read more studies in this respect.
Rosedale is selling supplements. I become suspicious when someone’s dietary program needs supplements regularly.
Dorothy, I agree with you about fridge space. My fridge has also become very roomy this month. I also spend less time in food preparation as I adopt animal food.
I meant raw whole organic nuts/seeds in my last post, not commercial extracted oil. [English is my second language; so excuse me if I use the wrong terms.] I was thinking that nuts/seeds might be a good source of fat in a low-carb/high fat diet.
So you are sure nuts/seeds have much Omega 3’s? That is good to know. I had the impression that most nuts/seeds have too much Omega 6’s. If they have much Omega 3's, what is the argument against them (as compard to animal foods)?
I would think that we do not have to worry about getting sufficient Omega 6’s as they are abundant in natural foods?
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You do amazingly well Joy for English as a second language!
Different nuts and seeds have different omega ratios. Flax seed for instance are very high in omega 3's and at least raw vegans can eat a lot of these because of raw crackers - at least me - I love soaked and dehydrated flax seed crackers. :) (not exactly paleo though)
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I saw grass-fed bison sold at grocers. It is a bit pricy. Will you guys say bison is a good source of red meat?
I love some good quality bison, it is about the best tasting red meat, but it is pricey as hell( around 9 dollars a pound).
It's also very lean so I always have to eat it with some fat trimmings.
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I actually bought a sirloin grass-fed steak from the farmer's market at $35 a pound! I was not impressed in the slightest. The ground also was much more expensive than any other kind of land animal meat and I didn't like it at all.
I guess I'm lucky that I didn't like it huh?
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Sabertooth, The bison I saw at a local grocer is $16 a pound. I do not yet want to try it since WH’s grass-fed Chuck steak (at $7 a pound) tastes alright to me now. But I will keep in mind your positive comment on bison, just in case I get tired of beef in some future time.
Dorothy, I also like flax crackers. Actually I am eating some today. We did learn many things from our raw vegan days, didn't we? I also miss some nice people on my favorite vegan forum.
Here is a quote from Slanker’s FAQ:
“In my opinion a better oil (than coconut oil) for cooking is macadamia nut oil, which we sell in the condiment section. Far and away the best salad oils are Flax Seed oil and/or Fish oils….As you can see from our many articles about food, people should not eat grain, potatoes, or sunflower seeds.”
So here is a vote for macadamia nuts/flax seeds and a vote against sunflower seeds. I will need to do more research on oils/fats.
I had a new beef dish invention (while I was just considering the ground beef from Central Mart you recommended): I put sliced chuck steak and some spices (no salt) in my Cuisine food processor to get minced beef. Then I spread the minced beef thinly on a large plate and “bake” it in my dehydrator at 115 degree F for at least a couple hours (turn the patty at least once so both sides will become somewhat “baked.”). It comes out more tasty to me than thinly sliced beef. I think I can stay with this beef patty for some time.
I learned from WF today that their grass-fed beef has never been frozen. That is a plus. Their grass-fed beef arrives on Wed. Maybe you will give them one more chance. BON APPETITE. :)
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Joy - is the WF grass-fed beef grass finished or grain finished? There was no one that knew when I've asked. I have been told that WF no longer does their own butchering. Their cuts of beef might be quite different than their ground of course - but to have pink on the outside and brown on the inside of ground beef - wrong. Hubbie only likes the ground and I eat so very little generally that it only makes sense of us to get ground only.
One of the issues is also that I go to WF very rarely. It's just not our normal migratory patterns. ;)
There's nothing wrong with sunflower seeds if you soak them and/or grow them some... at least there's nothing wrong with them for me! I love activated sunflower seeds and sunflower greens are one of my favorite foods - although I don't get to eat as often as I like these days. Oil is so different than the actual foods. Mr. Slanker is quite extreme in some of his views sometimes. Raw macadamia nuts are so hard to get that aren't rancid. I wonder about the oil. I somehow doubt the oil that he sells is raw.
I think sometimes with seeds you just have to try the different ones and see how they make you feel i guess. Cashews pretty much always are bad - almost always rancid (can smell it) and my body pretty much rejects them for instance.
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Dorothy, WF Downtown told me that if their beef is labeled “grass-fed” then it is grass-finished. Their grass-fed beef comes from a number of ranches near Austin.
I actually rarely went to WF. I get my fresh produce from Wheatsville mostly. But as I am brand new to raw meats, I think the easiest/safest way for me right now is to start with WF as their food quality is supposedly high.
Thank you for telling me Mr. Slanker is extreme in some views. Do you know his credentials?
I am not likely to purchase extracted macadamia oil from Slanker’s. I was just happy to know whole macadamia nuts might serve as one source of oil/fat while I continue to explore the animal food world.
WF does not carry grass-fed organs. I guess I have to order from Slanker’s eventually. What organs would you recommend to me as a newbie?
I actually like most of the cooked versions of organs. I like cooked cow’s tongue and pig’s kidney/liver a lot. Cooked chicken heart/liver is OK. But I do not like cooked cow’s liver. But raw organs should be quite different in taste, I guess?
I see this forum emphasizes raw organs. What nutrients do organs contain which raw meats do not offer? Are these nutrients obtainable from vegetarian source? (Maybe I should ask this question in another forum than ZC.)
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Raw organ meats contain far higher levels of nutrients than raw muscle-meats. They also contain trace nutrients like coenzyme q10 which are wholly absent in raw muscle-meats.
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Most vegetable oils are suspect among the Raw food community
I have serious Doubts about flax oil being healthy.(it is supposedly full of hormone descriptors)
I use to get grass fed beef from whole foods , before I started to get whole lambs from the farm. It was good for a while, but then for some reason it started to taste funky and I lost my appetite for it. That beef came from Georgia.
Sometimes, early into this diet, when I was desperate for fat, I would ask the butchers at WF to set back some fat trimmings. They had large amounts of trimmings from their Ohio signature beef. It was grass-fed, but finished on grain for 14 days. It usually tasted good ,and I didn't have any problems with it. I got them to sell it for a dollar a pound. The wholefoods often sells marrow bones,which are also a good source of fat.
I have adopted the whole animal approach. It just seems logical that if you consume the whole animal you will get the optimal balance of all the different nutrients stored in the different tissues.
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I have to stop recommending Slankers as all the times I have ordered so far they have been back-ordered. I'm starting to wonder if they will be a good consistent dependable source. I'm going to have to explore new options.
Joy, I am not the person to make recommendations on organ meats as I despise them all. -d I didn't eat any ever growing up and at this late stage in the game the only way for me to get myself to eat any is to hide them as best I can. Others I'm sure can give you detailed recommendations on organs and the best way to eat them individually. It makes great sense to me how important they are though especially on a mostly meat diet and I don't doubt for second that they contain all sorts of trace nutrients and the law of signatures (eat liver to help the liver) has been used by many to heal particular organs.
Thanks for the info on WFs grass-fed being really all the way grass-fed. Have you bought their ground yet? Does it look good to you? Maybe it would be worth giving them another try one day. The fact that they use local farmers is very good.
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Tyler, sabertooth, Dorothy, thank you for taking time to respond to my email.
I purchased some grass-fed, grain finished veal liver and a small package of organic chicken organs (a heart, a gizzard, and a liver) from WF. Their taste (after I marinated them and warmed them up in my dehydrator) is acceptable to me. So I am hopeful that I am really on my way to raw paleo diet.
Tyler, do you recall which organs contain Q-10? I am very interested in getting this nutrient through diet.
Sabertooth, will you point me to some scientific articles that disapprove whole raw flax seeds (soaked and dehydrated at low temperature)? I do not mean extracted flax oil.
“I have adopted the whole animal approach. It just seems logical that if you consume the whole animal you will get the optimal balance of all the different nutrients stored in the different tissues.” Logical apparently. On the other hand, in your practical experience, have you noticed specific health benefits as you adopt this approach?
Dorothy, I have not tried WF’s ground beef. I am content with my minced beef patties produced by my food processor.
As to Slanker’s, I would think many farms are running out of grass-fed meats because of the draught. A few months ago, a cattle farmer told me that grass-fed beef would be scarce in 2012 because many farmers were selling their grass-fed cattle due to the draught. Now that we are getting some rains lately, hopefully his prediction will not come true.
This is from yesterday’s Austin American-Statesman:
“drought…has put a number of grass-fed cattle ranchers out of business or forced them to supplement or finish raising the animals with grain.”
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Raw liver and raw heart contain the highest amounts of q10.
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Slankers says they are ok because of the recent rains - but they just can't keep up the demand in terms of process. They seem to not store any backup meat even though it is frozen.... they seem to be just behind the 8 ball with every order I've placed ... with cows at the processor but dependent on when the processor can get to it or when they themselves can pick up the order. It's all a matter of calculating needs and having the production on time and target - which seems to be a big problem for them since I've started ordering at least. They say they have the cows - I just can't buy any from them!
I can't imagine having to depend on them for food supply. My poor dogs are suffering terribly changing their diets so suddenly and not having anything lined up for them that is anywhere good enough. It's very frustrating. If I were dependent totally for our food supply from them I would be even more frantic right now. I'm trying to buy a whole animal - but like you mentioned - because there are so few farmers left from the drought - it sure is hard going. I wish I had bought a few cows when I knew of people selling out their whole stock last summer. 3 months over 100 degrees every day with not one day of rain - it wiped out sooooo many farms.
I'm instead --- buying more chickens and ducks to at least have good raw eggs because then I can raise bugs myself to feed them properly and have a dependable food source. I might even try feeding the bugs to my dogs if they will eat them. Unless one has a farm and/or hunts things feel tenuous. The prices are so very high - but it's not only that - even with just a few more people wanting the product, and like you said with the drought here, a supply problem is occurring. I hate being so dependent on an unreliable source. There is not one other source for ground up whole animal. I talked to one farmer that might start processing their miniature herefords - but I won't know about that for awhile either. It feels strange to buy over 300 pounds of frozen meat because if there is ever an electrical outage - bad news.
I do have a good food processor. I thought I'd have to buy a meat grinder. I'm wondering if I might be able to make up something myself for the dogs from different sources. How does the processing work for you Joy? What consistency do you get and is it difficult? What do you grind up?
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Tyler, many thanks for the CoQ-10 info.
Dorothy, sorry about your frustration in getting foodstuff from suppliers. So far I am mainly getting my beef from WF and they have plenty of beef. I guess I may meet obstacles when I try to purchase other food items.
My 11-cup food processor works beautifully for my needs. I place into it 3 pounds of sliced beef, spices (in powdered form), raw sesame butter (I will try raw coconut butter next time), and blend everything up for one or two minutes. What comes out is finely-ground paste. I warm up “meat patties” in my dehydrator at 115 degree F and I like the patties well. The meat paste keeps well in the fridge for a few days until it is all consumed. I turn the meat paste around everyday to expose it to air.
I also place veal liver and spices in my food processor and blend it up for a few second till the liver becomes paste. The warmed-up liver pattie tastes just like cooked liver. I know you despise liver, but maybe your pets don't. ;)
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The warmed-up liver pattie tastes just like cooked liver. I know you despise liver, but maybe your pets don't. ;)
If it tastes like cooked liver doesn't it mean it's cooked?
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Joy - thanks for the description. I like paste, chickens would love paste, dogs would prefer something chewier - but they would live - and every single one of my pets go BONKERS for liver. They're smarter than me. ;)
The chickens don't have teeth, and neither do some of my dogs (rescues), that's why consistency is important - I can't just throw them a steak or a liver etc. I was hoping to avoid grinding meat and like items, but if I have to, I have to. What cuts of beef do you make into a paste from WF?
The reason I want to get a whole animal is because I feed my dogs ONLY meat - which means they need ALL the organs - the whole animal. If I don't give them a whole animal then I'm going to have to start fussing with supplements and other kinds of foods added - which I prefer not to. My dogs were totally ketogenically adapted, but now with having to change their diets back and forth it messes them up. I have to figure out something that can be consistent for them. I bet it must be even harder for the humans here if they suddenly couldn't get the food they need to keep them healthy in their complete animal ketogenic diets. All those trace substances in the whole animal's various organs I think are pivotal. I think it's why most dog foods have to include all sorts of things - and human foods too.
I like how you add your seasonings and use your dehydrator. I think that might be a real nice thing to try for hubbie who seems to really enjoy seasoned meat and likes it still slightly cooked. I prefer mine not seasoned though and totally raw - even cold. Maybe dehydration would be a good thing to try for him.
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aL, food warmed up at 115 degree F is not cooked. Well, maybe it does not taste “exactly” like cooked. I am just very proud that I could make raw liver/meat palatable to me, a newbie in the animal food community.
Dorothy, I buy chuck steak or rump roast from WH, just because they are the least expensive cuts ($7 a pound).
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Raw liver and raw heart contain the highest amounts of q10.
I was looking around for info regarding q10 loss due to cooking
Not a whole lot of info.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9129255 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9129255)
How do cooking, storage or processing affect coenzyme Q?
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"Boiled food retains CQ10, while food prepared by frying may lose some of its CQ10."
http://www.livestrong.com/article/545390-nutrients-that-create-cq10/ (http://www.livestrong.com/article/545390-nutrients-that-create-cq10/)
"...frying vegetables reduces CoQ10 by approximately 14 to 32 percent, the vegetable's CoQ10 content did not change when boiled...
Although the amount of CoQ10 obtainable from food seems small, research indicates that the body's ability to create CoQ10 combined with a healthy diet ensures that most people do not have a deficiency."
http://www.livestrong.com/article/256149-what-foods-are-rich-in-coq10/ (http://www.livestrong.com/article/256149-what-foods-are-rich-in-coq10/)
"Beef has the highest amount of coQ10 of any food source. A 3-ounce serving of fried beef has 2.6 milligrams of coQ10, according to a study in the 1986 International Journal for Vitamin and Nutrition Research. The liver, muscle and heart of the cow have the greatest amounts."
http://www.livestrong.com/article/326159-foods-that-are-high-in-coq10/ (http://www.livestrong.com/article/326159-foods-that-are-high-in-coq10/)
"CoQ10 is necessary for the production of energy in all of your cells, and its antioxidant effects are important to protecting your cells from free-radical damage... CoQ10 inhibits blood clot formation and can help treat heart disease, high blood pressure and high cholesterol. A deficiency of CoQ10 can manifest as high blood pressure, fatigue that is not relieved by adequate rest, periodontal disease and weight gain.
Your body is able to produce a small amount of CoQ10 on its own, and you generally obtain the rest from your diet. Meats are a high source of CoQ10. Beef liver and pork liver are rich in CoQ10. Beef, chicken and venison are high in CoQ10. There are 2.6 mg. of CoQ10 in 3 oz. of beef and 1.4 mg. in 3 oz. of chicken.
Herring, mackerel and rainbow trout are healthy sources of CoQ10. There 2.3 mg of CoQ10 in herring, 1.2 mg in mackerel and 0.9 in rainbow trout.
Spinach and broccoli represent healthy vegetable sources of CoQ10, along with cauliflower. One ounce of sesame seeds contains 0.7 mg of CoQ10, while pistachio nuts contain 0.6 mg. Soybean oil and canola oil, both contain about 1 mg of CoQ10. One medium orange contains 0.3 mg of CoQ10, and 1 cup of strawberries has 0.2 mg.
http://www.livestrong.com/article/409792-what-foods-have-coenzyme-q10/ (http://www.livestrong.com/article/409792-what-foods-have-coenzyme-q10/)
I cannot find info. on the Co Q10 amount in beef liver/heart.