Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Hot Topics => Topic started by: Nicola on February 05, 2010, 03:41:52 am
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Matt Stone believes that dieting has made us ill.
So most problems come threw dieting - paleo, low carb...
http://180degreehealth.blogspot.com/2010/02/is-low-carb-diet-counterproductive.html
Some of the answers come from people who believe that Matt Stone has changed their life - thoughts?
I mean if I get to read Yuri's journal and others I kind of wonder if Matt Stone has "got it" and we are missing some thing?
Nicola
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Matt Stone believes that dieting has made us ill.
And I'm sure that I'm dieting because I was ill and dieting solved my health problems :)
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And I'm sure that I'm dieting because I was ill and dieting solved my health problems :)
Winner.
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all you have to do is look at the word "disorder" and apply that to your own health, mentally and physically, to decide if this way of eating causing that for you......
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Matt Stone believes that dieting has made us ill.
Matt Stone eats low fat and dairy. For making sick, this works for him, so I won't do it.
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Matt Stone believes that dieting has made us ill.
So most problems come threw dieting - paleo, low carb...
http://180degreehealth.blogspot.com/2010/02/is-low-carb-diet-counterproductive.html
Some of the answers come from people who believe that Matt Stone has changed their life - thoughts?
I mean if I get to read Yuri's journal and others I kind of wonder if Matt Stone has "got it" and we are missing some thing?
Nicola
How about reading my experiences with curing my own diseases? And my curing other peoples diseases that raw paleo diet and its variants cure diseases? That I'm just basically following Aajonus or Henry Bieler as they are accomplished healers?
It's all about healing. And raw paleo diet and its variants delivers cures while COOKED MEAT diets are not as healing?
Tell Matt Stone to learn about curing "incurable diseases" first firsthand.
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Nicola, have you ever thought that you just might be thinking along the lines of a perfectionist? Described from my book a perfetionist is "someone who has tendencies to have expectations about oneself, others and life that are unrealistically high. When anything falls short, you become disappointed and/or critical. Secondly, you tend to be overconcerned with small flaws and mistakes in yourself and your accomplishments. In focusing on what's wrong, you tend to discount and ignore whats right."
From the many posts I have seen you make, it seems that you will try very hard to find the negatives and dwell on them. There actually is nothing really wrong with that and its troubling to see flaws but it seems like you go quite far to pick out the people with trouble. I do this too. But, if we look at all the evidence it seems that most everyone here who has been on this diet for a while has found a suitable, stable method that works very well.
Calling paleo another eating disorder seems at first like an attack to people who are following it on this board and will draw attention in a manner that I believe won't produce constructive debate.
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Matt Stone believes that dieting has made us ill.
So most problems come threw dieting - paleo, low carb...
http://180degreehealth.blogspot.com/2010/02/is-low-carb-diet-counterproductive.html
Some of the answers come from people who believe that Matt Stone has changed their life - thoughts?
I mean if I get to read Yuri's journal and others I kind of wonder if Matt Stone has "got it" and we are missing some thing?
Nicola
In that blog post Matt stone was NOT talking about RAW Paleo Diet in particular.
Matt stone was talking about very low carb diets (not necessarily RAW) where some people have this ketosis and cortisol issues he's blabbing about.
Just to clear this up. I think you misunderstood Matt Stone's blog. He was not talking about Paleo being another eating disorder. He was talking about long term very low carb diets.
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Matt Stone can have fun eating junk food and carbs. -v I'll just remain lean, energetic and healthy on raw zero carb, thanks. I think carb-eating is a disorder. I find nothing wrong with a long term raw zero carb diet. I am eating fatty ground beef and just re-incorporated organic eggs. I also drink green and white tea.
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Everyone, please read what the article really said. In #2 he said he was consuming RAW DAIRY products. Absolutely NOT PALEO. This guy was not pointing to PALEO diet at all.
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TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 2, 2010
Is a Low-Carb Diet Counterproductive?
I was asked to shed some light this morning on why I think low-carb diets are counterproductive for healing the metabolism. This is very timely as I will be sending in a guest post to Tom Naughton's Fat Head blog later this week. Thought I would share an elaborated version of my response with the 180 Groupies...
Several things make me very leery of going low-carb, or at least make me feel that it is counterproductive:
1) Several authors, such as Diana Schwarzbein and Barry Sears talk about cortisol being raised on a low-carb diet as if it were common biochemistry knowledge. Knowing what I know about cortisol, a low-carb diet seems very undesirable. Diana Schwarzbein repeats the mantra that “going too low in carbohydrates raises cortisol and adrenaline” time and time again throughout her work. Keep in mind she observed this by tracking her patients’ hormone levels as a practicing endocrinologist. Barry Sears emphatically states:
"…the longer you stay in ketosis, the more your fat cells adapt so that they are transformed into ‘fat magnets,’ becoming 10 times more active in accumulating fat…A high-protein, low-carbohydrate diet drives insulin levels too low, thereby causing hypotension, fatigue, irritability, lack of mental clarity, loss of muscle mass, increased hunger, and rapid fat regain when carbohydrates are reintroduced into the diet. Not exactly a prescription for anti-aging. This coupled with the increase in cardiovascular mortality because insulin levels are too low, simply reinforces the need to maintain insulin within a zone: not too high, not too low.”
This is probably due to cortisol, particularly the “fat magnet” claim. Although not everyone experiences these things on a low-carb diet, I experienced almost all of them, and know many others who have as well. The longer I went low-carb, the worse those symptoms got.
2) My own personal health eventually deteriorated on a low-carb diet. My pet allergies and asthma increased, I had digestive problems - both heartburn and mild constipation, became very grouchy, and developed foul body and breath odor, and even eventually started to have tooth pain (although on zero carb I did not). Add sleep problems and the re-appearance of gas and slight acne to the list too. I had none of these experiences in the beginning stages. Quite the contrary actually. Everything seemed to improve and I had thought, like many do, that I had found the Holy Grail of health. Note: I was the perfect low-carber too. All my dairy products and meats were grassfed/pastured and local. My dairy was unpasteurized. All my produce was organic – most from farmer’s markets.
3) Even Dr. Atkins states in Dr. Atkins New Diet Revolution that the Atkins diet, long-term, has "the tendency to shut down thyroid function." He states that on page 303:
“…remember that prolonged dieting [including ‘this one’] tends to shut down thyroid function. This is usually not a problem with the thyroid gland but with the liver, which fails to convert T4 into the more active thyroid principle, T3. The diagnosis is made on clinical grounds with the presence of fatigue, sluggishness, dry skin, coarse or falling hair, an elevation in cholesterol, or a low body temperature.”
4) The mere presence of ketone bodies from going low in carbohdyrates is known to intensify insulin resistance. Insulin resistance is the whole reason people go on low-carb diets in the first place, and is the root problem - worsened by a low-carb diet.
5) The most major metabolic and digestive problems that people have come to me seeking help for were caused by going too low in carbohdyrates for a long period of time. One kid had ruined his digestion and metabolism so severely that he developed hypogonadism, was suicidal, and couldn’t manage to choke down more than 1,500 calories per day without severe bloating. This was a formerly-healthy young man in his 20’s that did this to himself by being totally dedicated to good health. His diet consisted of mostly raw dairy products, raw grassfed beef, and sauerkraut - a combination of following ideas derived from Woflgang Lutz, Aajonus Vonderplanitz, and the Weston A. Price Foundation. Only a fruitarian diet seems to be capable of matching this level of degeneration.
6) Broda Barnes stated:
“…it has been clearly established that a high protein diet lowers the metabolic rate, [therefore] symptoms of hypothyroidism will be aggravated… Hypoglycemia may be controlled on the high protein diet, but the other symptoms of thyroid deficiency which usually accompany hypoglycemia are aggravated.”
AND...
“…when the diet was changed so that it was low in fat but high in protein and with enough carbohydrate to prevent diarrhea, symptoms of hypothyroidism appeared. Cholesterol level in the blood became elevated and in order to keep it within normal range, four additional grains of thyroid daily were needed. Apparently, a diet high in protein requires additional thyroid for its metabolism.”
7) Given the recent topic of omega 6 overload on the cellular level, a high fat/low-carb diet is almost always higher in total omega 6 polyunsaturated fat as well – even if vegetable oils are excluded. This may be very significant, it may not be the end of the world. The issue needs further exploration. A low-carb diet will typically have twice the amount of omega 6 as a typical, low vegetable-oil diet with more calories coming from carbohydrate. My estimates, using ESHA software, of my low-carb diet included at least 15 grams of omega 6 per day. My diet over the past several days has had an average of just 3 grams of omega 6 per day. Significant? Who knows, but it’s thought-provoking.
This is just a short list of reasons. But you get the idea. It's not that a low-carb or even zero-carb diet can’t be a healthy diet. Eskimos proved that beyond a shadow of a doubt. The question is, given that the world seems to be in metabolic decline, with widespread insulin resistance, low body temperature, and more… is a low-carb diet the most effective strategy at fixing the core problem, or might it actually be counterproductive?
Click HERE to read some of the low-carb war stories of others.
Original blog post http://180degreehealth.blogspot.com/2010/02/is-low-carb-diet-counterproductive.html
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Some people eat raw paleo to get rid of an eating disorder.
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I will just talk about my experience here. Since cutting down carbs, because of a candida issue, I think paleo eating (cooked) did help me to gain my health back, no question about it. But in the same time, I feel like I am in no way able to cope with toxins, whether sugar, smoke, alcohol, or any other toxins, as I used to be able to in the past. Now I must say about the raw paleo way of eating, that it is even worst. If I go for a while eating only raw, I will have the worst detox ever if I go off the way. But in the same time my digestion when eating raw really seems at his best, or shall I say at his easiest.
So that bring me to ask: are we too much cleaning our self that we have weaker ability to deal with theses ?
I am what people around me would call an extremist. If I go one way, I go all the way. In looking for the best, the truth, I have no problems stepping aside of, let's say, the mass, and going my own way. I assumed that the "mass" is wrong, stupid, or unawakened and that they need to be taught. As I mature, I feel that there is a middle way in everything, even in diet. So that's what I have been wondering for a while, if the middle path isn't the way, at least for myself. High sugary carbs is definitively a bad food for me. High fat is definitively a healing food for me.
Now I must say again that I don't have years of eating raw, and that when I tried to stick to it, I failed to achieve the benefits most talk about. Maybe I am just too weak to hold on, maybe I am not sick enough, but I respect every opinions since I think we all are talking from our own experience.
I don't know if you guys know http://www.karlloren.com/ (http://www.karlloren.com/), but in his diary, he talk about his experience with raw primal eating, the goods and the bads. He finally gave it up because of the stance he was creating between himself and his wife and his other relatives. Well I feel just like him.
Is it weakness, or is it just that sharing moments while eating "not the best healing" food with people we love is actually worth more in the long run...?
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Is it weakness, or is it just that sharing moments while eating "not the best healing" food with people we love is actually worth more in the long run...?
I think that sharing food with loved ones is food for the soul, and I am lucky that I can do it every few weeks, and also lucky that I don't live with them.
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I don't know if you guys know http://www.karlloren.com/ (http://www.karlloren.com/), but in his diary, he talk about his experience with raw primal eating, the goods and the bads. He finally gave it up because of the stance he was creating uetween himself and his wife and his other relatives. Well I feel just like him.
Is it weakness, or is it just that sharing moments while eating "not the best healing" food with people we love is actually worth more in the long run...?
I compromise with cooked meat paleo diet sometimes, but on very few occassions.
Kids are put on a raw paleo diet when sick. I don't get sick (past 2 years) and the kids know why: RAW.
My wife and relatives saw how sick and obese I was and I've written my ailments in my blogs, they will have to understand why I do this. Those who refuse to understand I care not for their sentiments because I have to survive and be healthy for myself and for my kids.
My wife and I live with her folks in an extended compound and we all get along really well. My wife and kids are into an almost cooked meat paleo diet with some rice and raw fruits maybe call it specific carbohydrate diet, all organic. My father in law is on high carbohydrate SAD diet but he jogs every morning to burn it all. My sister in law had a lump so she's lowering her carb and upping her fat. My mother in law has eczema allergies so she's trying to go paleo but has weak resistance to cravings or social reasons. Our maids are on high carbohydrate rice diet so they're starting to get fat as they age.
So we "richer" people are slim, the help and the driver are fat fat fat....
As long as people are happy. I provide remedies for their illnesses.... happy happy.
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Matt Stone talks about cooked non-paleo dieting, so not really relevant to this board.
Talking about macronutrients ratio means nothing about what is effectively eaten.
However, there is no doubt that some people really need more carbs than others.
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One can socialise with others without compromising one's dietary needs. For example, there are sashimi restaurantas out there, one can get steak tartare in many Euroepan-oriented restaurants etc. And one doesn't have to drink alcohol , just drink water instead.
In order to avoid standard detox effects from switching back to cooked after going raw, people commonly use "high-meat" and/or enxyme supplements which avoids the issue. Also, while going raw means the body doesn't adapt to cooked foods, this lack of adaptations means the body can divert its resources away from digestion to healing etc. when eating raw. And being able to handle cooked foods on a SAD diet merely is acxcompanied by an equivalent increase in aging, diseases etc.
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I find nothing wrong with a long term raw zero carb diet.
Very imprudent statement and plain nonsense from a scientific point of view.
We just don't know yet and have to experiment on such a diet over several generations before such a conclusion might be drawn
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We just don't know yet and have to experiment on such a diet over several generations before such a conclusion might be drawn
~7 million years of history seems long enough for me ;)
What carbs could paleo men have eaten in large quantity? The occasional berries represented what, 0,5% of their calorie intake? And berries were available how many months of the year, 1 maybe 2? Same thing for nuts.
It seems clear to me that our ancestors' diet was ZC most of the time, and VLC in rare conditions (appropriate season, region, climate, vegetation).
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One can socialise with others without compromising one's dietary needs. For example, there are sashimi restaurantas out there, one can get steak tartare in many Euroepan-oriented restaurants etc.
Gored gored in Ethiopian restaurants, habra nayeh in Lebanese-Palestinian. There's a Thai restaurant by me with beef carpaccio and an Italian with tuna carpaccio. Koreans have tartar, raw liver and live octopus dishes too. I'm finding more people are eating raw meat than we may think, they just don't talk about it online.
We may need poor people to demand good quality raw meat. So many people eat lots of bologna Wonder bread sandwiches and Tuna Helper. The government doesn't let them know of any virtues of raw meat. It's easier for the gov't to bring about all meat being hormone/antibiotic injected, pasteurized and irradiated if they have a large group of the population not knowing how unhealthy their meat is. We have rulers in every country. If everyone demands quality only, the rulers will have to start having a heart for the people's health.
And one doesn't have to drink alcohol , just drink water instead.
One doesn't even have to be 100% raw for that. Even in my cooked days, when going out dancing etc I normally drank Perrier rather than alcohol.
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~7 million years of history seems long enough for me ;)
What carbs could paleo men have eaten in large quantity? The occasional berries represented what, 0,5% of their calorie intake? And berries were available how many months of the year, 1 maybe 2? Same thing for nuts.
It seems clear to me that our ancestors' diet was ZC most of the time, and VLC in rare conditions (appropriate season, region, climate, vegetation).
I'm a scientist, not interested in either ZC or vegan (or whatever else) ideologies.
There is by no means any evidence of 7 millions years of ZC human diet. Just whishful speculations. First ZC is impossible, second the only known experiment nature made on us is the Inuit one which is rather just VLC or LC if one counts the carbs that exist in animal products such as liver, stomach content etc.
Now most humans lived in lower latitudes with quite different ecological conditions and there food of plant origin is obviously available all year round in substantial quantities.
It is most unlikely that these paleo ancestors refrained from taking advantage of these resources besides animal products.
Neither klowcarb or any of the ZC devotees were there to explain them the advantages of ketosis and stop them from doing so. ;)
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In that blog post Matt stone was NOT talking about RAW Paleo Diet in particular.
Matt stone was talking about very low carb diets (not necessarily RAW) where some people have this ketosis and cortisol issues he's blabbing about.
Just to clear this up. I think you misunderstood Matt Stone's blog. He was not talking about Paleo being another eating disorder. He was talking about long term very low carb diets.
On his blog Matt Stone has often quoted the Paleo Diet. What I find more interesting are the answers from people who reported going down hill on a paleo, low carb and many other diets.
I always look for the positive but I just happen to question things and come on - quite a few are suffering in one way or another.
Nicola
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I always thought the bones were the best place to look for what diet we consumed through the paleolithic era. There isn't much else right? Perhaps bones from animals or cave paintings, which I've heard here have not had one single plant life drawn and only animals.
Every paper I've seen on stable isotope analysis of paleolithic era bones shows that we were carnivore. Even very recently, and this article has been posted here, that 7700 year old bones "discovered Scientists at Bradford University measured the nitrogen and carbon levels in her bone and discovered that she had an almost exclusively carnivorous diet, eating almost as much meat as a wolf."
http://www.shef.ac.uk/pr/press_releases/pr02/28aug02.html
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Nicola, it's a bit pointless starting such controversial posts. For one thing , those people are doing cooked-palaeo which hardly helps. As regards Matt Stone., isn't his regime one that involved ludicrous amounts of junk-food. Kind of self-defeating - sure the body can adapt to such foods to some extent, but only at the cost of getting further health-problems and wearing the body down.
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I've already pointed out how those isotope analyses are fundamentally flawed(well that is, the conclusion by some that they mean 100% meat-consumption is fundamentally flawed. Here's more re this:-
" Even if they don't, however, it is important to remember that"dietary contributions from fat cannot be evaluated by isotope analysis of collagen and so carbon and nitrogen isotope studies can only reconstruct the likely proportions of different species that made up the protein componentof their diets, which is unlikely to have comprised more than about 40% of their diet by energy and possibly only 25% of the diet overall (Cordain et al 2002)."(Pearson 2007: 6).Thus, while the results of isotopic dietary analyses of Neanderthals are uniquely informative, it is important to remember that they only provide data pertaining to one part of their diet. Thus, to assume that Neanderthals ate only meat because they appear to have drawn most of their protein from large herbivore is 'jumping the evidential gun'. Given that Neanderthals were top-ranked hunters living at relatively low population densities, it would have made little sense for them not to target the highest-ranked animal resources in their ecosystem as their main source of meat. And this behavior is exactly what isotopic studies have been demonstrating so far. As for the rest of the the Neanderthal diet, various lines of evidence - including a wonderful paper by Henry and Piperno (2008) presented at the Paleoanthropology Society meetings two weeks ago - are beginning to clearly show that Neanderthals also appear to have made extensive use of plant resources whenever they had access to them. Unfortunately, this is effectively invisible from an isotopic standpoint.References:Henry, A., Piperno, D. 2008. Plants in Neandertal diet: Plant microfossil evidence from the dental calculus of Shanidar III. Paper presented on March 26, at the 2008 Annual Meetings of the Paleoanthropology Society, Vancouver, BC, Canada.Pearson, J. A. 2007. Hunters, fishers and scavengers: a review of the isotope evidence for Neanderthal diet. Before Farming 2007/2-2.Richards,M.P., Pettitt, P.B., Trinkaus, E., Smith, F.H., Karavanic´, I.,Paunovic´,M.,2000. Neanderthal diet at Vindija and Neanderthal predation: the evidencefrom stable isotopes. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. U.S.A. 97: 7663-7666.RICHARDS, M., TAYLOR, G., STEELE, T., MCPHERRON, S., SORESSI, M., JAUBERT, J., ORSCHIEDT, J., MALLYE, J., RENDU, W., HUBLIN, J. (2008). Isotopic dietary analysis of a Neanderthal and associated fauna from the site of Jonzac (Charente-Maritime), France. Journal of Human Evolution DOI: 10.1016/j.jhevol.2008.02.007... Read more »"
taken from:-
http://www.researchblogging.org/blogger/home/id/205?post_length=full
Given there are now current studies proving beyond doubt that neanderthals ate a variety of plant foods, it's not possible to claim a zc approach for them any more.
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I always thought the bones were the best place to look for what diet we consumed through the paleolithic era. There isn't much else right? Perhaps bones from animals or cave paintings, which I've heard here have not had one single plant life drawn and only animals.
Every paper I've seen on stable isotope analysis of paleolithic era bones shows that we were carnivore. Even very recently, and this article has been posted here, that 7700 year old bones "discovered Scientists at Bradford University measured the nitrogen and carbon levels in her bone and discovered that she had an almost exclusively carnivorous diet, eating almost as much meat as a wolf."
http://www.shef.ac.uk/pr/press_releases/pr02/28aug02.html
As TD points out, from a technical as well as a statistical point of view such clear cut conclusions drawn from isotope analysis of a few remains are highly questionable. It is unfortunately not possible to discuss these technical matters seriously here.
Much more converging evidence from several independant sources is needed to convince scientists of the reality of such a daring and for many reasons unlikely hypothesis.
I do not definitely dismiss this possibility of course. Yet the only reasonable serious position by now is that we can absolutely not yet conclude that our paleo ancestors were merely carnivores.
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I always look for the positive but I just happen to question things and come on - quite a few are suffering in one way or another.
Nicola
the disorder factors in just as any situation in life
if you try something and it makes you worse or doesnt improve your health but you are insistent that this is the only proper way to eat, that is what makes it a disorder
so perhaps those who are insistent on a diet that is not proper or healing to their current health situation do having eating disorders.
another factor would be the amount of time spent thinking about or talking about this way of eating. however i think that is just brought to light because most of us do not know other paleo dieter so our time/energy is documented on the internet. that social aspect of preparing, eating with others is somewhat diminished. and most people here are are very curious, want to help others and seek out science to explain how and why this diet is best for them because it is contrary to the standard and perhaps it helps them accept the fact and also promote it to other people who may benefit. i find it interesting how a question such as "why dont we eat like our ancestors" can lead to so many diverse discussions
so
continuing to eat a certain way when it has proven time and time again to be detrimental to the health and obsessing over it, why its not working, if you arent doing it perfectly instead of moving towards something that may be more beneficial=eating disorder
obsessing over finding/spreading a diet that has helped you personally to achieve superior health=silly/ego/philanthropic but not entirely disordered unless the obsession leads to unbalance in other areas of life
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Our maids are on high carbohydrate rice diet so they're starting to get fat as they age.
Maids!
Nicola, it's a bit pointless starting such controversial posts.
I don't think it's pointless... Some people here seem to experience problems over a long period of time, and call them detoxes, e.g. vomiting, diahrrea, pains. Others have irritability/sensitivity over a long period and say it's because they're clean/detoxed. Anyway, loads seem to have these sort of problems and just shrug them off and keep going, "It must be good".
That doesn't mean Paleo, or Raw Paleo is an eating disorder. However, lots of people eating Paleo/Raw Paleo, and posting on these forums, seem to have eating disorders...
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Actually, very few people here have any sort of eating disorders. And while detoxes exist, they're of minor import. In almost all cases they're of minor severity and duration and vanish after some years, with people nearly always feeling better afterwards. Sure there are 1 or 2 outliers who may be seriously ill from some past health-problem which a rawpalaeodiet can't solve(I mean rawpalaeodiet is useful but it can't perform miracles like regrowing kidneys or whatever), but that's of no real consequence.
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I have to say, I don't give much of a damn about eating disorders. I care about health. WTF is an eating disorder? Can you measure it? Sure, you can measure death from anorexia or bulemia, etc., but nobody here has those problems, that I'm aware of.
Eating disorder...that's like saying someone who plays video games 30 minutes a day has a "video-game" disorder, or someone who has sex 1 hour a week has a "sex disorder".
The definition of the term has to be stretched beyond usefulness to include the rawpaleo diet. I'm not saying there aren't a few NEWBIES who get a little extreme, but this diet leads you away from stupid eating behavior, if anything.
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As TD points out, from a technical as well as a statistical point of view such clear cut conclusions drawn from isotope analysis of a few remains are highly questionable. It is unfortunately not possible to discuss these technical matters seriously here.
Yes, too bad but that's what we have, to determine what they ate.
the only reasonable serious position by now is that we can absolutely not yet conclude that our paleo ancestors were merely carnivores.
Merely? Carnivores must be more intelligent that their food, unless their food cannot escape, like the neolithic fruit & veg. that TD eats.
I propose that fativores must be even more intelligent, unlike lions which AFAIK don't care if their prey is lean, and those unfortunates who have been deceived by the low fat trolls.
I wonder if there is any bone analysis that could show percentage of fat consumption?
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Merely? Carnivores must be more intelligent that their food, unless their food cannot escape, like the neolithic fruit & veg. that TD eats.
I propose that fativores must be even more intelligent, unlike lions which AFAIK don't care if their prey is lean, and those unfortunates who have been deceived by the low fat trolls.
I wonder if there is any bone analysis that could show percentage of fat consumption?
Well I just meant (English is not my native language) that things are most likely not that simple as plain carnivorism and our ancestors were a priori opportunists taking advantage of all available resources.
Notice also that including plant food into our ancestor's diet besides animal meat and fat, fish etc , i.e. being omnivore, implies clearly the same hunting or fishing abilities and skills as 100% carnivores + the appropriate knowledge of what kind of plant food can be safely eaten as well as where to gather it.
In other words omnivores must actually be more or at least as intelligent as carnivores.
And I agree "fativore" would certainly be much more appropriate for homo sapiens than "carnivore". We are not capable to handle as much protein catabolism waste as typical carnivores.
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FATIVORES!!!!
Love the new word.
Must be highlighted: FATIVORES!
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What carbs could paleo men have eaten in large quantity? The occasional berries represented what, 0,5% of their calorie intake? And berries were available how many months of the year, 1 maybe 2? Same thing for nuts.
For millions of years humans have lived in hot regions, near the Equator. There was a lot of fruits, veggies, seeweeds all the year. Besides there are carbs in shellfish.
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Every paper I've seen on stable isotope analysis of paleolithic era bones shows that we were carnivore.
I need to ammend this as this is wrong. I think the papers that do stable isotope analysis generally agree that the protein consumed is mainly if not all from animal protein. Seeing that there is very little protein that comes from vegetation I suppose it would be very hard to measure it in the bones. Apparently measuring fat or carbohydrate consupmtion from bones is not possible.
There was another paper Tyler posted back a couple weeks ago which implied that we ate the lean parts of the meat, left the fat and instead chose vegetation for energy instead of fat. This would be one way to explain how our bones could look very carnivorous but not necessary imply that our diets were.
I wonder if the bones of TD and Lex would differ drastically since they probably both get a similar amount of protein from animal sources though energy from fats and carbs are going to be much different. With that said, I'd guess that TD, since you get around 35% of your energy from carbs and probably 20% from protein that your fat intake is going to be in the 40-50% range which means that you are substituting animal fats for carbs.
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Incorrect. I only said I ate 35% of diet as an absolute extreme at times(ie mostly in the summer). Normally, it's much lower than that.
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Seeing that there is very little protein that comes from vegetation I suppose it would be very hard to measure it in the bones.
Make that zero protein from veg. Nutty vegetarians rave about protein from veggies, when they mean amino acids. It takes 22 or 24 amino acids to make a protein, and they all must be present. They never are all present in plants; the proof is that plants have no muscles.
There was another paper Tyler posted back a couple weeks ago which implied that we ate the lean parts of the meat, left the fat and instead chose vegetation for energy instead of fat.
Tyler either makes those up or finds the most dubious "research" ever. The record shows that lean meat was always dog food. See redfulcrum's death defying experiment.
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On his blog Matt Stone has often quoted the Paleo Diet. What I find more interesting are the answers from people who reported going down hill on a paleo, low carb and many other diets.
Nicola, Did you read the examples he gave? I doubt that anyone here eats like most of the folks in his examples. Here are the first four examples he gives at http://180degreehealth.blogspot.com/search?q=carb+wars (and they are not even all "low carb," much less raw Paleo or Paleo):
i. 16? weeks of 349g protein per day, 50g carbs per day with meat, vegetables, and oils [way more protein by % than most of us eat and I doubt many here eat only oils for fat]
ii. an example he admits is "not exactly a low-carb story" [WTH? Not even low-carb? Then why is it in a "low carb failure" post?]
iii. a month of being on fermented cream, peanut butter, butter, eggs, olive oil and "extremely small and ridiculous amounts of meat, and vegetables"[peanut butter? "extremely small" amounts of meat? how is this like us?]
iv. 50-70g carbs/day; meats, fish, eggs, veggies, nuts, nut butters, raw cream, cheeses from raw milk, avocados, butter, tallow, lard, bacon grease and coconut oil [this one probably comes closest to us, but nut butters? And many of us eat little or no dairy]
So none of these examples are RPD. I didn't have time to do more searching. Did you find any RPD examples?
Tyler's carb intake is much lower than folks might expect and I actually haven't noticed anyone reporting eating more carbs than in the SAD (about 50%). Does anyone here get more than 50% of their calories from carbs? If not, a lot of this debating seems to be making mountains out of molehills, since most vegans would probably consider most of us to be LC, as most of them seem to consider SAD to be deficient in carbs at 50%.
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So that bring me to ask: are we too much cleaning our self that we have weaker ability to deal with theses ?
Is it weakness, or is it just that sharing moments while eating "not the best healing" food with people we love is actually worth more in the long run...?
a weakness!lol....or just not enough respect for your own health, from yourself or from others.
i definitely share meal time, just no the same cuisine, with others...i cook for people at work and home... but i would never think to compromise my health to appease social obligations or to fit into a society that is polluted enough to be apathetic to their mental and physical health conditions...although i have never been one to eat fast food or snacks, i would never want to think my constitution "strong" enough to be able to "deal" with a twinkie or gordita or whatever
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Make that zero protein from veg. Nutty vegetarians rave about protein from veggies, when they mean amino acids. It takes 22 or 24 amino acids to make a protein, and they all must be present. They never are all present in plants; the proof is that plants have no muscles.
Tyler either makes those up or finds the most dubious "research" ever. The record shows that lean meat was always dog food. See redfulcrum's death defying experiment.
Call me a goat. Nom Nom Nom Nom Nom...burp
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So that bring me to ask: are we too much cleaning our self that we have weaker ability to deal with theses ?
I've pondered this myself for many years as my diet has gotten more and more reduced due to ever increasing food allergies. Each time I cut something else out it seemed that my reactions were stronger when I did zing myself. I wondered if I was metaphorically painting myself into a corner.
I finally came to the conclusion that this was actually a good thing; our bodies can't mount true reactions when we're under the stress of frequent toxins because we're too run down. As we reduce these daily bombardments we have much more pronounced reactions to those toxins we do ingest. While the short-term negatives do seem oppressive the long-term and overall benefits do far outweigh the negative. :)
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Tyler's carb intake is much lower than folks might expect and I actually haven't noticed anyone reporting eating more carbs than in the SAD (about 50%). Does anyone here get more than 50% of their calories from carbs? If not, a lot of this debating seems to be making mountains out of molehills, since most vegans would probably consider most of us to be LC, as most of them seem to consider SAD to be deficient in carbs at 50%.
I suggest that the critical difference is that between carb burning bodies and those running on ketone bodies.
Those who can't hack the change must eat enough carbs to prevent it, or suffer withdrawal symptoms.
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I would like to add something. I will try to make an analogy. It will not sound the best one to most of you but still, I will just try to express my point. To stay in shape, we have to exercise. not stay on a couch "saving" our energy to make it last longer. but when we are sick or tired, we need to rest. some may say what a stupid analogy. but take a moment to consider it in link to diet. If I am sick, I eat the good food. and here I agree 100% with you guys since I am here, cause I have been sick. Candida was my issue, at least as far as I know. But now that I have rebalanced my health, I can say that I can eat junk food, as less as possible, but still can. I know am not nourishing my body on theses food , but what if I was just "exercising" my body when I do so? and again, this is only my story. I am in no way capable of talking for ANYONE ELSE.
We know that we have most of our genetic coming from our ancestor which I am convinced were eating a lot more raw, without processed food, preservatives, chemicals, and all that crap that is in most food available today. But, it's still been a while we are cooking, eating grains, dairy. Probably those aren't optimal but here I go again with my analogy, what if these weren't just "exercises" for our body?
One more word about the pleasure we get from eating with people we love around us. We, humans, are a social animal. And again, I am only talking for myself, but being able to "not care" what the hell if this isn't the best food for me, is a liberation. And who knows, maybe the positives effects on the whole body we get from gathering with friends, having a good time, just doing the dumb ass once in a while, has a lot more impact than we think on our overall health?
Paix et amour.
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Does anyone here get more than 50% of their calories from carbs?
I think there are 1 or 2 Instincto-types who might be above 50% re carbs, not sure.
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Funkymonk: I can see where you're coming from and when I look at it more I do tend to agree with you. Eating a wide variety of foods does exercise our bodies, especially our organs, but like everything it must be done in moderation or else it can be very detrimental.
Most of us are still in the recovery phase of our health so cooked food really isn't an option. After the body is healed up to where it should be the occasional cooked meal, provided it's cooked intelligently, shouldn't kill us. Yeah, you'll feel crappy for a day but it's like catching a cold.
Along the same lines are carbohydrates IMO. We're an adaptive species and while meat and fat will sustain most of us just fine it's best, IMO, to not close that avenue of food down completely if possible. I'm strictly carnivorous right now while my body heals but some day I'll likely add back in some very light carbs (probably berries) just because it intuitively feels more right.
I do feel that "junk food" should still be avoided at all costs. Grains are just bad for us and fractionated simple carbohydrates as you'll find in most "junk food" are almost toxic on their load & detrimental effect to the body.
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It's not just a question of regaining health. There are other concerns too. For example, the heat-created toxins in cooked foods are known to lead to increased aging. And, like I said, one can socialise with people without compromising one's principles re diet. I'll admit occasionally miss certain cooked foods such as eismarillenknoedel etc., but I've seen what harm such processed non-palaeo foods have done to me and others so I'm quite able to do without.
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Funkymonk that's just what I get to hear at my mum and dad's - eat and don't think; you think too much! Your body is made to deal with food - the colon is made to deal with grains, cake...and they seem to be able to deal with it...
They are kind of like this Matt Stone and again if you read the answers he got - paleo didn't seem to do it for some.
I mentioned Matt Stone to this PaNu guy and ...
http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2010/2/5/180-180-360.html
plus
http://freetheanimal.com/2010/02/richard-nikoley-has-a-low-body-temperature-and-edema-you-be-the-judge.html
Nicola
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OK, good. It looks like you answered your own question, Nicola. That's the sort of thing I tend to do as well--seek out multiple analyses from different seemingly credible, logical, science- and experience-backed sources before jumping to conclusions and panicking.
Another good practice is to remember to have fun! ;D And if you have fun and appear healthy, happy and confident, and respond to people's concerns with a smile, they may be less likely to worry over you or pressure you to do things their way.
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I think there are 1 or 2 Instincto-types who might be above 50% re carbs, not sure.
As far as I know Iguana is above 50% and feels quite well over a period of more than 20 years....
I'm at a mean of approximately 30% carbs (sometimes less than 10% in winter and more than 50% in summer) over a period of 11 years now and I feel quite well too and got rid of my kidney stones in this way...
Just plain facts. Food for thought for those who claim prematurely that carbs are poison :)
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As far as I know Iguana is above 50% and feels quite well over a period of more than 20 years....
I'm at a mean of approximately 30% carbs (sometimes less than 10% in winter and more than 50% in summer) over a period of 11 years now and I feel quite well too and got rid of my kidney stones in this way...
Just plain facts. Food for thought for those who claim prematurely that carbs are poison :)
Hi Alphagruis,
I'm interested to know how a typical day goes for you. What and how much food. Pics too.
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Hi Alphagruis,
I'm interested to know how a typical day goes for you. What and how much food. Pics too.
Hi GS,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn_salad
A typical winter day (10% carbs)
- Around noon corn salad or chicory (I grow them myself organically) with a bit garlic and virgin olive oil or the veggies as they are in nature plus one or two avocados (organic if possible) or a handfull of wallnuts or a few apples from my own organically grown trees.
- Around 8 PM fatty mutton shoulder plus a bit liver or 12 oysters plus one hour later very fatty boar ribs or beef.
In summer more fruit around noon, sometimes only my own cherries or berries in June and less fatty meat in the evening.
I buy occasionally some tropical fruits such as watermelon, papayas or durian (delicious)
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Hi GS,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn_salad
A typical winter day (10% carbs)
- Around noon corn salad or chicory (I grow them myself organically) with a bit garlic and virgin olive oil or the veggies as they are in nature plus one or two avocados (organic if possible) or a handfull of wallnuts or a few apples from my own organically grown trees.
- Around 8 PM fatty mutton shoulder plus a bit liver or 12 oysters plus one hour later very fatty boar ribs or beef.
In summer more fruit around noon, sometimes only my own cherries or berries in June and less fatty meat in the evening.
I buy occasionally some tropical fruits such as watermelon, papayas or durian (delicious)
Oh wow, absolutely thrilled and honored with your long term experience. I'd like to do a japanese bow... bow...
I have got to try corn salad.
Garlic? I'm a little shy eating garlic, I'm thinking garlic may obliterate my good bacteria. What's your idea about garlic?
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As far as I know Iguana is above 50% and feels quite well over a period of more than 20 years....
Thanks for the example. I think a debate over carbs between Iguana at above 50% carbs vs. someone eating 0-20% carbs would be less a case of making mountains out of molehills than a debate between one of us who is doing 0-5% carbs and one who is doing 5-30% carbs, which seems to occur more often. Granted, I think the latter can be informative too and have participated in some, but to get angry and insult the opponent over these minor differences seems out of proportion.
...I'm at a mean of approximately 30% carbs (sometimes less than 10% in winter and more than 50% in summer) over a period of 11 years now and I feel quite well too and got rid of my kidney stones in this way...
Did you find any particular foods to be especially helpful in kidney stone prevention and what were you eating when you were getting them?
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Oh wow, absolutely thrilled and honored with your long term experience. I'd like to do a japanese bow... bow...
I have got to try corn salad.
Garlic? I'm a little shy eating garlic, I'm thinking garlic may obliterate my good bacteria. What's your idea about garlic?
Garlic or onions, I eat them in tiny quantities only with olives or olive oil, impossible to eat large quantities anyway. In this traditional form I like it very much and I could not observe any evidence that it obliterates good bacteria. It probably rather impairs the growth of bad bacteria.
Did you find any particular foods to be especially helpful in kidney stone prevention and what were you eating when you were getting them?
I don't know actually. I guess that there is not just a specific food that helps but just raw paleo. A RP diet with much less or even more carbs might have worked as well. Apparently the culprit was my previous cooked neolithic diet such as bred or pasta and perhaps cooked fat and meat.
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I found that cutting out gluten was the single biggest factor in clearing up my chronic kidney stone issue, so I can well imagine that bred and pasta might have contributed to yours.
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I found that cutting out gluten was the single biggest factor in clearing up my chronic kidney stone issue, so I can well imagine that bred and pasta might have contributed to yours.
Yes, apparently it turns out that gluten and perhaps other toxins and/or antinutrients in grains and legumes impair kidney function in this way in people with specific genetic backgrounds. Your experience as well as mine and one or two others I've heard of support this idea.
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Yes, apparently it turns out that gluten and perhaps other toxins and/or antinutrients in grains and legumes impair kidney function in this way in people with specific genetic backgrounds. Your experience as well as mine and one or two others I've heard of support this idea.
Wheat / Gluten is the big bad wolf.
My friend, the best hands on healer I know, Vander Gaditano told me of a 7 year old girl he cured a few months ago. She was in bad shape, her kidneys were shutting down. She checked into his healing farm.
There he saw the parents were feeding the sick girl their poison crackers and bread. He clamped down on the culprits and said he would do all the feeding himself. In 1 week the girl recovered completely.
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This girl's very rapid recovery is indeed most remarkable, thanks for sharing.
I hope wheat will never become a staple food in your country too, GS.
Rice in Asia or tubers in Africa also make people eventually overweight but seem much less harmful for kidneys and probably other organs.
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As I mentioned in Tylers journal I have been looking at Dr. Cordains blog and the way he sees things. This got me a little upset again - a new picture...not just meat and fat but plants, fruit, nuts and less fat!
Tyler has often mentioned the "need" for fruit and fruit is healthy as long at it is bio and raw...Goodsamaritan needs fruit for hydration (how can he make up for 3-4 liters of water as Lex seems to need by eating the amount of fruit he mentioned I do not know), energy plus for bowel movements!
Well again...are we all just in the dark, missing something...this is what "The Bear" has to say:
Did I tell you that one of the subjects I specialized in was Anthropology?
You should know the so called "Paleolithic diet" is bogus, as described by its various proponents, like Ray Audette. (He has a severe metabolic problem, by the way and is very underfat and undermuscled). This "paleo" diet is actually early neolithic, not Paleolithic, as there is no evidence whatsoever for any vegetable matter being brought into Paleolithic camps as food. Only animal remains have been found associated with Paleolithic camp digs. True, women most likely ate whatever berries etc., they found, on the spot, but he men and the tribe in general ate meat exclusively.
Paleo means "old"; neo, "new". The old stone age, or Paleolithic comprises most of man's history and evolution. It is characterized by tools made of chipped glass of volcanic origin, the best, and sharpest knives, spear and arrow heads known to science (unfortunately they are brittle). The are the tools of hunters. This period is four million years long. The Neolithic, (new stone age) is the age of the beginnings of agriculture, and it begins with the extensive gathering of plants, the breeding of strains with reduced toxins and the tools of this era were ground rather than chipped, and were very inferior.
Basically, there is a lot of bad food advice in this book (Ray Audette’s “Neanderthin”), and I advise you not to follow his recommendations, especially stay away from high carb foods like nuts and fruit (fruit is the absolutely most fattening of all the carb sources. It is high in fructose, an isomer of glucose which is instantly absorbed from the stomach, and makes your blood sugar skyrocket). The Atkins diet is also very flawed. A "fad" diet of the time, it doesn't work very well. Fat loss stops after a short period on it due to the carbs in it.
Man has NEVER (until the last 4000 years in the west) eaten a high carb diet, and I might point out that "berries", which were always gathered in season, are in very short availability periods.
For hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of years, the Eskimo have eaten no carbs in their diet, simply because there were none available. They lived to advanced ages near 100 years if they didn't die from accident or had been exposed to too many bouts of starvation, or developed too heavy an infestation of trichinosis, (common in the meat of arctic bears, wolves and foxes). There is NOTHING wrong with this diet. No matter what anyone says, they are quite simply wrong. Only the Eskimos raised with a zero-carb diet have no damage in those arteries.
I don't care what some idiot (friend or not) who wants to promote a vegetarian diet says, he cannot alter the facts. North American Indians were mostly exclusively meat eaters with only two or three groups cultivating some maize , and one group in Ca who were 50% veggie eaters (a weak tribe which was overrun and extinguished in the eighteenth century). The destruction of the bison herds nearly starved the plains Indians to extinction, as they had no other food. Thoughts are needed
Nicola
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This girl's very rapid recovery is indeed most remarkable, thanks for sharing.
I hope wheat will never become a staple food in your country too, GS.
Rice in Asia or tubers in Africa also make people eventually overweight but seem much less harmful for kidneys and probably other organs.
Also from Cordain ...
Loren Cordain: Wheat, rye, barley, and perhaps oats are problematical for individuals with celiac disease. Wheat seems to be associated with many auto-immune diseases.
Ironically, whole grain cereals (which are thought to be more healthful than refined cereals because of their greater nutrient and fiber content) have a greater potential to disrupt mineral metabolism because of their higher phytate and anti-nutrient content.
Although high grain cereals intrinsically contain higher nutrient levels than do refined cereal grains, the biological availability of nutrients in whole grain cereals remains paradoxically low because of their high anti-nutrient content.
On the plus side, whole grain cereals, because of their high fiber content tend to have superior glycemic indices than do their refined counterparts. Obviously, low to moderate amounts of cereal grains in the diet presents little or no health problems to most people. The majority of the grain products consumed in this country are refined, and consequently many of the anti-nutrients are milled out.
Robert Crayhon: Such as the bran?
Loren Cordain: Yes, exactly. There's a tradeoff. Milling takes out the anti-nutrients, but it also lowers the levels of vitamins and minerals.
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This girl's very rapid recovery is indeed most remarkable, thanks for sharing.
I hope wheat will never become a staple food in your country too, GS.
Rice in Asia or tubers in Africa also make people eventually overweight but seem much less harmful for kidneys and probably other organs.
Wheat is already a staple food in my country. Bread, noodles, pasta, crackers, etc.
My family is almost paleo diet save for white rice... which I hope will eventually fall as well.
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high carb foods like nuts and fruit (fruit is the absolutely most fattening of all the carb sources. It is high in fructose, an isomer of glucose which is instantly absorbed from the stomach, and makes your blood sugar skyrocket).
It is a well-known fact that frutarian are all obese :P
Fructose does not exist alone in natural food. In fruits, fructose naturally form a good balance with glucose and each follows a different metabolic pathway. So it is a non sens to talk about fructose alone.
Carbs, like protein, can make your blood sugar skyrocket only if you overeat them.
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It is a well-known fact that frutarian are all obese :P
Fructose does not exist alone in natural food. In fruits, fructose naturally form a good balance with glucose and each follows a different metabolic pathway. So it is a non sens to talk about fructose alone.
Carbs, like protein, can make your blood sugar skyrocket only if you overeat them.
Non sens
Depends on your body chemistry make up, as Cordain points out, ALL fructose & carbs will raise your blood sugar levels, how high depends on how poor your immune system functions, ie your insulin response & your resistance
How effectively you dampen or absorb the results of those blood sugar levels, is down to the individual
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are "anti nutrients' really something to worry about?
i know that in cereal grains, because they have so many other disturbing attributes, it is another clear reason to abstain.......
however, isnt calcium an inhibitor to iron absorbtion, thus kind of an "anti nutrient"?
should we be worried about calcium? should we be worried about iron?
i think a lot of our health problems and the idea that any diet may lead to "disorder" is that we questions and dissect until we only trust "xyz"-andrevonderpltaz.com to tell us how we should feel
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As I mentioned in Tylers journal I have been looking at Dr. Cordains blog and the way he sees things. This got me a little upset again - a new picture...not just meat and fat but plants, fruit, nuts and less fat!
Thoughts are needed
L. Cordain is a troll, and his so-called paleolithic diet is neolithic, and designed to comfort those addicted to carbohydrates.
Bear has it far more right than wrong.
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Depends on your body chemistry make up, as Cordain points out, ALL fructose & carbs will raise your blood sugar levels, how high depends on how poor your immune system functions, ie your insulin response & your resistance
and how much you eat of course.
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are "anti nutrients' really something to worry about?
i know that in cereal grains, because they have so many other disturbing attributes, it is another clear reason to abstain.......
however, isnt calcium an inhibitor to iron absorbtion, thus kind of an "anti nutrient"?
should we be worried about calcium? should we be worried about iron?
i think a lot of our health problems and the idea that any diet may lead to "disorder" is that we questions and dissect until we only trust "xyz"-andrevonderpltaz.com to tell us how we should feel
It depends on your health status. Some people can handle antinutrients better than others. People with compromised health do better avoiding them as much as possible (but they are everywhere, even in meat...)
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Wheat is already a staple food in my country. Bread, noodles, pasta, crackers, etc.
My family is almost paleo diet save for white rice... which I hope will eventually fall as well.
Friends from Cameroun told me recently that wheat is also becoming a staple food in African cities, replacing progressively the traditional apparently less toxic tubers.
A very sad situation. Huge suffering ahead.
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L. Cordain is a troll, and his so-called paleolithic diet is neolithic, and designed to comfort those addicted to carbohydrates.
Bear has it far more right than wrong.
Cordain promotes a high fat diet, he doesnt promote fruit & nuts or carbs ...
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... Cordain: Wheat, rye, barley, and perhaps oats are problematical for individuals with celiac disease. Wheat seems to be associated with many auto-immune diseases.
Ironically, whole grain cereals (which are thought to be more healthful than refined cereals because of their greater nutrient and fiber content) have a greater potential to disrupt mineral metabolism because of their higher phytate and anti-nutrient content.
Although high grain cereals intrinsically contain higher nutrient levels than do refined cereal grains, the biological availability of nutrients in whole grain cereals remains paradoxically low because of their high anti-nutrient content.
... The majority of the grain products consumed in this country are refined, and consequently many of the anti-nutrients are milled out.
Robert Crayhon: Such as the bran?
Loren Cordain: Yes, exactly. ...
Even my son who will not touch meat nor egg nor fish says that the only good whole grain fiber does is absorb fats, which is a good thing if the fats the people eat are of poor quality. He eats high quality fat, so he pretty much avoids most fiber, especially grain fiber. He's been on both sides of the coin, and the fat side heals.
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Cordain promotes a high fat diet, he doesnt promote fruit & nuts or carbs ...
Whaaat? The low fat guru has seen the light, and gone high fat?
He does push carbs.
You need a url for that whopper.
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Whaaat? The low fat guru has seen the light, and gone high fat?
He does push carbs.
You need a url for that whopper.
All his interviews on Mercola, are low carb