Author Topic: Paleo - just a nother eating disorder?  (Read 17679 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Nicola

  • Shaman
  • *****
  • Posts: 452
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Paleo - just a nother eating disorder?
« on: February 05, 2010, 03:41:52 am »
Matt Stone believes that dieting has made us ill.

So most problems come threw dieting - paleo, low carb...

http://180degreehealth.blogspot.com/2010/02/is-low-carb-diet-counterproductive.html

Some of the answers come from people who believe that Matt Stone has changed their life - thoughts?

I mean if I get to read Yuri's journal and others I kind of wonder if Matt Stone has "got it" and we are missing some thing?

Nicola

alphagruis

  • Guest
Re: Paleo - just a nother eating disorder?
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2010, 04:07:03 am »
Matt Stone believes that dieting has made us ill.

And I'm sure that I'm dieting because I was ill and dieting solved my health problems :)

Offline djr_81

  • Hakuna Matata
  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,201
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Facebook
Re: Paleo - just a nother eating disorder?
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2010, 04:09:40 am »
And I'm sure that I'm dieting because I was ill and dieting solved my health problems :)
Winner.
https://www.facebook.com/djr1981
As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler; solitude will not be solitude, poverty will not be poverty, nor weakness weakness.
-Henry David Thoreau

Offline jessica

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,016
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Paleo - just a nother eating disorder?
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2010, 04:45:33 am »
all you have to do is look at the word "disorder" and apply that to your own health, mentally and physically, to decide if this way of eating causing that for you......

William

  • Guest
Re: Paleo - just a nother eating disorder?
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2010, 05:07:41 am »
Matt Stone believes that dieting has made us ill.

Matt Stone eats low fat and dairy.  For making sick, this works for him, so I won't do it.

 

Offline goodsamaritan

  • Administrator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,684
  • Gender: Male
  • Geek Healer Truth Seeker Pro-Natal Pro-Life
    • View Profile
    • Filipino Services Inc.
Re: Paleo - just a nother eating disorder?
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2010, 06:32:44 am »
Matt Stone believes that dieting has made us ill.

So most problems come threw dieting - paleo, low carb...

http://180degreehealth.blogspot.com/2010/02/is-low-carb-diet-counterproductive.html

Some of the answers come from people who believe that Matt Stone has changed their life - thoughts?

I mean if I get to read Yuri's journal and others I kind of wonder if Matt Stone has "got it" and we are missing some thing?

Nicola

How about reading my experiences with curing my own diseases?  And my curing other peoples diseases that raw paleo diet and its variants cure diseases?  That I'm just basically following Aajonus or Henry Bieler as they are accomplished healers?

It's all about healing.  And raw paleo diet and its variants delivers cures while COOKED MEAT diets are not as healing?

Tell Matt Stone to learn about curing "incurable diseases" first firsthand.

Linux Geek, Web Developer, Email Provider, Businessman, Engineer, REAL Free Healer, Pro-Life, Pro-Family, Truther, Ripple-XRP Fan

I'm the network administrator.
My business: Website Dev & Hosting and Email Server Provider,
My blogs: Cure Manual, My Health Blog, Eczema Cure & Psoriasis Cure

Offline Paleo Donk

  • Chief
  • *****
  • Posts: 664
    • View Profile
Re: Paleo - just a nother eating disorder?
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2010, 06:44:31 am »
Nicola, have you ever thought that you just might be thinking along the lines of a perfectionist? Described from my book a perfetionist is "someone who has tendencies to have expectations about oneself, others and life that are unrealistically high. When anything falls short, you become disappointed and/or critical. Secondly, you tend to be overconcerned with small flaws and mistakes in yourself and your accomplishments. In focusing on what's wrong, you tend to discount and ignore whats right."

From the many posts I have seen you make, it seems that you will try very hard to find the negatives and dwell on them. There actually is nothing really wrong with that and its troubling to see flaws but it seems like you go quite far to pick out the people with trouble. I do this too. But, if we look at all the evidence it seems that most everyone here who has been on this diet for a while has found a suitable, stable method that works very well.

Calling paleo another eating disorder seems at first like an attack to people who are following it on this board and will draw attention in a manner that I believe won't produce constructive debate.

Offline goodsamaritan

  • Administrator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,684
  • Gender: Male
  • Geek Healer Truth Seeker Pro-Natal Pro-Life
    • View Profile
    • Filipino Services Inc.
Re: Paleo - just a nother eating disorder?
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2010, 09:08:05 am »
Matt Stone believes that dieting has made us ill.

So most problems come threw dieting - paleo, low carb...

http://180degreehealth.blogspot.com/2010/02/is-low-carb-diet-counterproductive.html

Some of the answers come from people who believe that Matt Stone has changed their life - thoughts?

I mean if I get to read Yuri's journal and others I kind of wonder if Matt Stone has "got it" and we are missing some thing?

Nicola

In that blog post Matt stone was NOT talking about RAW Paleo Diet in particular.

Matt stone was talking about very low carb diets (not necessarily RAW) where some people have this ketosis and cortisol issues he's blabbing about.

Just to clear this up.  I think you misunderstood Matt Stone's blog.  He was not talking about Paleo being another eating disorder.  He was talking about long term very low carb diets.
Linux Geek, Web Developer, Email Provider, Businessman, Engineer, REAL Free Healer, Pro-Life, Pro-Family, Truther, Ripple-XRP Fan

I'm the network administrator.
My business: Website Dev & Hosting and Email Server Provider,
My blogs: Cure Manual, My Health Blog, Eczema Cure & Psoriasis Cure

Offline klowcarb

  • Chief
  • *****
  • Posts: 581
    • View Profile
Re: Paleo - just a nother eating disorder?
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2010, 09:09:01 am »
Matt Stone can have fun eating junk food and carbs.   -v I'll just remain lean, energetic and healthy on raw zero carb,  thanks. I think carb-eating is a disorder. I find nothing wrong with a long term raw zero carb diet. I am eating fatty ground beef and just re-incorporated organic eggs. I also drink green and white tea.

Offline goodsamaritan

  • Administrator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,684
  • Gender: Male
  • Geek Healer Truth Seeker Pro-Natal Pro-Life
    • View Profile
    • Filipino Services Inc.
Re: Paleo - just a nother eating disorder?
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2010, 09:15:40 am »
Everyone, please read what the article really said.  In #2 he said he was consuming RAW DAIRY products.  Absolutely NOT PALEO.  This guy was not pointing to PALEO diet at all.

--------

TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 2, 2010
Is a Low-Carb Diet Counterproductive?
I was asked to shed some light this morning on why I think low-carb diets are counterproductive for healing the metabolism.  This is very timely as I will be sending in a guest post to Tom Naughton's Fat Head blog later this week.  Thought I would share an elaborated version of my response with the 180 Groupies...  

Several things make me very leery of going low-carb, or at least make me feel that it is counterproductive:


1) Several authors, such as Diana Schwarzbein and Barry Sears talk about cortisol being raised on a low-carb diet as if it were common biochemistry knowledge. Knowing what I know about cortisol, a low-carb diet seems very undesirable. Diana Schwarzbein repeats the mantra that “going too low in carbohydrates raises cortisol and adrenaline” time and time again throughout her work. Keep in mind she observed this by tracking her patients’ hormone levels as a practicing endocrinologist. Barry Sears emphatically states:

"…the longer you stay in ketosis, the more your fat cells adapt so that they are transformed into ‘fat magnets,’ becoming 10 times more active in accumulating fat…A high-protein, low-carbohydrate diet drives insulin levels too low, thereby causing hypotension, fatigue, irritability, lack of mental clarity, loss of muscle mass, increased hunger, and rapid fat regain when carbohydrates are reintroduced into the diet. Not exactly a prescription for anti-aging. This coupled with the increase in cardiovascular mortality because insulin levels are too low, simply reinforces the need to maintain insulin within a zone: not too high, not too low.”

This is probably due to cortisol, particularly the “fat magnet” claim. Although not everyone experiences these things on a low-carb diet, I experienced almost all of them, and know many others who have as well. The longer I went low-carb, the worse those symptoms got.

2) My own personal health eventually deteriorated on a low-carb diet. My pet allergies and asthma increased, I had digestive problems - both heartburn and mild constipation, became very grouchy, and developed foul body and breath odor, and even eventually started to have tooth pain (although on zero carb I did not). Add sleep problems and the re-appearance of gas and slight acne to the list too. I had none of these experiences in the beginning stages. Quite the contrary actually. Everything seemed to improve and I had thought, like many do, that I had found the Holy Grail of health. Note: I was the perfect low-carber too. All my dairy products and meats were grassfed/pastured and local. My dairy was unpasteurized. All my produce was organic – most from farmer’s markets.

3) Even Dr. Atkins states in Dr. Atkins New Diet Revolution that the Atkins diet, long-term, has "the tendency to shut down thyroid function." He states that on page 303:

“…remember that prolonged dieting [including ‘this one’] tends to shut down thyroid function. This is usually not a problem with the thyroid gland but with the liver, which fails to convert T4 into the more active thyroid principle, T3. The diagnosis is made on clinical grounds with the presence of fatigue, sluggishness, dry skin, coarse or falling hair, an elevation in cholesterol, or a low body temperature.”


4) The mere presence of ketone bodies from going low in carbohdyrates is known to intensify insulin resistance. Insulin resistance is the whole reason people go on low-carb diets in the first place, and is the root problem - worsened by a low-carb diet.

5) The most major metabolic and digestive problems that people have come to me seeking help for were caused by going too low in carbohdyrates for a long period of time. One kid had ruined his digestion and metabolism so severely that he developed hypogonadism, was suicidal, and couldn’t manage to choke down more than 1,500 calories per day without severe bloating. This was a formerly-healthy young man in his 20’s that did this to himself by being totally dedicated to good health. His diet consisted of mostly raw dairy products, raw grassfed beef, and sauerkraut - a combination of following ideas derived from Woflgang Lutz, Aajonus Vonderplanitz, and the Weston A. Price Foundation. Only a fruitarian diet seems to be capable of matching this level of degeneration.

6) Broda Barnes stated:

“…it has been clearly established that a high protein diet lowers the metabolic rate, [therefore] symptoms of hypothyroidism will be aggravated… Hypoglycemia may be controlled on the high protein diet, but the other symptoms of thyroid deficiency which usually accompany hypoglycemia are aggravated.”

AND...

“…when the diet was changed so that it was low in fat but high in protein and with enough carbohydrate to prevent diarrhea, symptoms of hypothyroidism appeared. Cholesterol level in the blood became elevated and in order to keep it within normal range, four additional grains of thyroid daily were needed. Apparently, a diet high in protein requires additional thyroid for its metabolism.”

7) Given the recent topic of omega 6 overload on the cellular level, a high fat/low-carb diet is almost always higher in total omega 6 polyunsaturated fat as well – even if vegetable oils are excluded. This may be very significant, it may not be the end of the world. The issue needs further exploration. A low-carb diet will typically have twice the amount of omega 6 as a typical, low vegetable-oil diet with more calories coming from carbohydrate. My estimates, using ESHA software, of my low-carb diet included at least 15 grams of omega 6 per day. My diet over the past several days has had an average of just 3 grams of omega 6 per day. Significant? Who knows, but it’s thought-provoking.

This is just a short list of reasons. But you get the idea. It's not that a low-carb or even zero-carb diet can’t be a healthy diet. Eskimos proved that beyond a shadow of a doubt. The question is, given that the world seems to be in metabolic decline, with widespread insulin resistance, low body temperature, and more… is a low-carb diet the most effective strategy at fixing the core problem, or might it actually be counterproductive?

Click HERE to read some of the low-carb war stories of others.

Original blog post http://180degreehealth.blogspot.com/2010/02/is-low-carb-diet-counterproductive.html
« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 09:27:15 am by goodsamaritan »
Linux Geek, Web Developer, Email Provider, Businessman, Engineer, REAL Free Healer, Pro-Life, Pro-Family, Truther, Ripple-XRP Fan

I'm the network administrator.
My business: Website Dev & Hosting and Email Server Provider,
My blogs: Cure Manual, My Health Blog, Eczema Cure & Psoriasis Cure

Offline ezekiel

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,518
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Paleo - just a nother eating disorder?
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2010, 09:16:51 am »
Some people eat raw paleo to get rid of an eating disorder.

Offline funkymonk

  • Forager
  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Les tam-tams du Saint-Maurice
Re: Paleo - just a nother eating disorder?
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2010, 12:07:17 pm »
I will just talk about my experience here. Since cutting down carbs, because of a candida issue, I think paleo eating (cooked) did help me to gain my health back, no question about it. But in the same time, I feel like I am in no way able to cope with toxins, whether sugar, smoke, alcohol, or any other toxins, as I used to be able to in the past. Now I must say about the raw paleo way of eating, that it is even worst. If I go for a while eating only raw, I will have the worst detox ever if I go off the way. But in the same time my digestion when eating raw really seems at his best, or shall I say at his easiest.

So that bring me to ask: are we too much cleaning our self that we have weaker ability to deal with theses ?

I am what people around me would call an extremist. If I go one way, I go all the way. In looking for the best, the truth, I have no problems stepping aside of, let's say, the mass, and going my own way. I assumed that the "mass" is wrong, stupid, or unawakened and that they need to be taught. As I mature, I feel that there is a middle way in everything, even in diet. So that's what I have been wondering for a while, if the middle path isn't the way, at least for myself. High sugary carbs is definitively a bad food for me. High fat is definitively a healing food for me.

Now I must say again that I don't have years of eating raw, and that when I tried to stick to it, I failed to achieve the benefits most talk about. Maybe I am just too weak to hold on, maybe I am not sick enough, but I respect every opinions since I think we all are talking from our own experience.

I don't know if you guys know http://www.karlloren.com/, but in his diary, he talk about his experience with raw primal eating, the goods and the bads. He finally gave it up because of the stance he was creating between himself and his wife and his other relatives. Well I feel just like him.

Is it weakness, or is it just that sharing moments while eating "not the best healing" food with people we love is actually worth more in the long run...?


William

  • Guest
Re: Paleo - just a nother eating disorder?
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2010, 12:15:54 pm »


Is it weakness, or is it just that sharing moments while eating "not the best healing" food with people we love is actually worth more in the long run...?



I think that sharing food with loved ones is food for the soul, and I am lucky that I can do it every few weeks, and also lucky that I don't live with them.

Offline goodsamaritan

  • Administrator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,684
  • Gender: Male
  • Geek Healer Truth Seeker Pro-Natal Pro-Life
    • View Profile
    • Filipino Services Inc.
Re: Paleo - just a nother eating disorder?
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2010, 04:12:25 pm »
I don't know if you guys know http://www.karlloren.com/, but in his diary, he talk about his experience with raw primal eating, the goods and the bads. He finally gave it up because of the stance he was creating uetween himself and his wife and his other relatives. Well I feel just like him.

Is it weakness, or is it just that sharing moments while eating "not the best healing" food with people we love is actually worth more in the long run...?

I compromise with cooked meat paleo diet sometimes, but on very few occassions.

Kids are put on a raw paleo diet when sick.  I don't get sick (past 2 years) and the kids know why: RAW.

My wife and relatives saw how sick and obese I was and I've written my ailments in my blogs, they will have to understand why I do this.  Those who refuse to understand I care not for their sentiments because I have to survive and be healthy for myself and for my kids.

My wife and I live with her folks in an extended compound and we all get along really well.  My wife and kids are into an almost cooked meat paleo diet with some rice and raw fruits maybe call it specific carbohydrate diet, all organic.  My father in law is on high carbohydrate SAD diet but he jogs every morning to burn it all.  My sister in law had a lump so she's lowering her carb and upping her fat.  My mother in law has eczema allergies so she's trying to go paleo but has weak resistance to cravings or social reasons. Our maids are on high carbohydrate rice diet so they're starting to get fat as they age.

So we "richer" people are slim, the help and the driver are fat fat fat....

As long as people are happy.  I provide remedies for their illnesses.... happy happy.

Linux Geek, Web Developer, Email Provider, Businessman, Engineer, REAL Free Healer, Pro-Life, Pro-Family, Truther, Ripple-XRP Fan

I'm the network administrator.
My business: Website Dev & Hosting and Email Server Provider,
My blogs: Cure Manual, My Health Blog, Eczema Cure & Psoriasis Cure

carnivore

  • Guest
Re: Paleo - just a nother eating disorder?
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2010, 04:48:19 pm »
Matt Stone talks about cooked non-paleo dieting, so not really relevant to this board.
Talking about macronutrients ratio means nothing about what is effectively eaten.

However, there is no doubt that some people really need more carbs than others.

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,920
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Paleo - just a nother eating disorder?
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2010, 05:12:37 pm »
One can socialise with others without compromising one's dietary needs. For example, there are sashimi restaurantas out there, one can get steak tartare in many Euroepan-oriented restaurants etc. And one doesn't have to drink alcohol , just drink water instead.

In order to avoid standard detox effects from switching back to cooked after going raw, people commonly use "high-meat" and/or enxyme supplements which avoids the issue. Also, while going raw means the body doesn't adapt to cooked foods, this lack of adaptations means the body can divert its resources away from digestion to healing etc. when eating raw. And being able to handle cooked foods on a SAD diet merely is acxcompanied by an equivalent increase in aging, diseases etc.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 06:33:41 pm by TylerDurden »
"What is the point of growing up If you can't be childish sometimes..." - Tom Baker as Dr Who.

alphagruis

  • Guest
Re: Paleo - just a nother eating disorder?
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2010, 06:27:21 pm »
I find nothing wrong with a long term raw zero carb diet.

Very imprudent statement and plain nonsense from a scientific point of view.

We just don't know yet and have to experiment on such a diet over several generations before such a conclusion might be drawn

Offline Nation

  • Warrior
  • ****
  • Posts: 284
    • View Profile
Re: Paleo - just a nother eating disorder?
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2010, 07:17:22 pm »
We just don't know yet and have to experiment on such a diet over several generations before such a conclusion might be drawn

~7 million years of history seems long enough for me ;)

What carbs could paleo men have eaten in large quantity?  The occasional berries represented what, 0,5% of their calorie intake? And berries were available how many months of the year, 1 maybe 2?  Same thing for nuts.

It seems clear to me that our ancestors' diet was ZC most of the time, and VLC in rare conditions (appropriate season, region, climate, vegetation).

Offline RawZi

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,052
  • Gender: Female
  • Need I say more?
    • View Profile
    • my twitter
Re: Paleo - just a nother eating disorder?
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2010, 07:24:44 pm »
One can socialise with others without compromising one's dietary needs. For example, there are sashimi restaurantas out there, one can get steak tartare in many Euroepan-oriented restaurants etc.

    Gored gored in Ethiopian restaurants, habra nayeh in Lebanese-Palestinian.  There's a Thai restaurant by me with beef carpaccio and an Italian with tuna carpaccio.  Koreans have tartar, raw liver and live octopus dishes too.  I'm finding more people are eating raw meat than we may think, they just don't talk about it online.  

    We may need poor people to demand good quality raw meat.  So many people eat lots of bologna Wonder bread sandwiches and Tuna Helper.  The government doesn't let them know of any virtues of raw meat.  It's easier for the gov't to bring about all meat being hormone/antibiotic injected, pasteurized and irradiated if they have a large group of the population not knowing how unhealthy their meat is.  We have rulers in every country.  If everyone demands quality only, the rulers will have to start having a heart for the people's health.    

And one doesn't have to drink alcohol , just drink water instead.

    One doesn't even have to be 100% raw for that.  Even in my cooked days, when going out dancing etc I normally drank Perrier rather than alcohol.  
"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

alphagruis

  • Guest
Re: Paleo - just a nother eating disorder?
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2010, 08:01:04 pm »
~7 million years of history seems long enough for me ;)

What carbs could paleo men have eaten in large quantity?  The occasional berries represented what, 0,5% of their calorie intake? And berries were available how many months of the year, 1 maybe 2?  Same thing for nuts.

It seems clear to me that our ancestors' diet was ZC most of the time, and VLC in rare conditions (appropriate season, region, climate, vegetation).

I'm a scientist, not interested in either ZC or vegan (or whatever else) ideologies.

There is by no means any evidence of 7 millions years of ZC human diet. Just whishful speculations. First ZC is impossible, second the only known experiment nature made on us is the Inuit one which is rather just VLC or LC if one counts the carbs that exist in animal products such as liver, stomach content etc.

Now most humans lived in lower latitudes with quite different ecological conditions and there food of plant origin is obviously available all year round in substantial quantities.

It is most unlikely that these paleo ancestors refrained from taking advantage of these resources besides animal products.

Neither klowcarb or any of the ZC devotees were there to explain them the advantages of ketosis and stop them from doing so.  ;)    

Offline Nicola

  • Shaman
  • *****
  • Posts: 452
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Paleo - just a nother eating disorder?
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2010, 08:29:56 pm »
In that blog post Matt stone was NOT talking about RAW Paleo Diet in particular.

Matt stone was talking about very low carb diets (not necessarily RAW) where some people have this ketosis and cortisol issues he's blabbing about.

Just to clear this up.  I think you misunderstood Matt Stone's blog.  He was not talking about Paleo being another eating disorder.  He was talking about long term very low carb diets.


On his blog Matt Stone has often quoted the Paleo Diet. What I find more interesting are the answers from people who reported going down hill on a paleo, low carb and many other diets.

I always look for the positive but I just happen to question things and come on - quite a few are suffering in one way or another.

Nicola

Offline Paleo Donk

  • Chief
  • *****
  • Posts: 664
    • View Profile
Re: Paleo - just a nother eating disorder?
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2010, 08:32:19 pm »
I always thought the bones were the best place to look for what diet we consumed through the paleolithic era. There isn't much else right? Perhaps bones from animals or cave paintings, which I've heard here have not had one single plant life drawn and only animals.

Every paper I've seen on stable isotope analysis of paleolithic era bones shows that we were carnivore. Even very recently, and this article has been posted here, that 7700 year old bones "discovered Scientists at Bradford University measured the nitrogen and carbon levels in her bone and discovered that she had an almost exclusively carnivorous diet, eating almost as much meat as a wolf."

http://www.shef.ac.uk/pr/press_releases/pr02/28aug02.html

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,920
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Paleo - just a nother eating disorder?
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2010, 08:37:37 pm »
Nicola, it's a bit pointless starting such controversial posts. For one thing , those people are doing cooked-palaeo which hardly helps. As regards Matt Stone., isn't his regime one that involved ludicrous amounts of junk-food. Kind of self-defeating - sure the body can adapt to such foods to some extent, but only at the cost of getting further health-problems and wearing the body down.
"What is the point of growing up If you can't be childish sometimes..." - Tom Baker as Dr Who.

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,920
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Paleo - just a nother eating disorder?
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2010, 09:01:25 pm »
I've already pointed out how those isotope analyses are fundamentally flawed(well that is, the conclusion by some that they mean 100% meat-consumption is fundamentally flawed. Here's more re this:-

Quote
" Even if they don't, however, it is important to remember that"dietary contributions from fat cannot be evaluated by isotope analysis of collagen and so carbon and nitrogen isotope studies can only reconstruct the likely proportions of different species that made up the protein componentof their diets, which is unlikely to have comprised more than about 40% of their diet by energy and possibly only 25% of the diet overall (Cordain et al 2002)."(Pearson 2007: 6).Thus, while the results of isotopic dietary analyses of Neanderthals are uniquely informative, it is important to remember that they only provide data pertaining to one part of their diet. Thus, to assume that Neanderthals ate only meat because they appear to have drawn most of their protein from large herbivore is 'jumping the evidential gun'. Given that Neanderthals were top-ranked hunters living at relatively low population densities, it would have made little sense for them not to target the highest-ranked animal resources in their ecosystem as their main source of meat. And this behavior is exactly what isotopic studies have been demonstrating so far. As for the rest of the the Neanderthal diet, various lines of evidence - including a wonderful paper by Henry and Piperno (2008) presented at the Paleoanthropology Society meetings two weeks ago - are beginning to clearly show that Neanderthals also appear to have made extensive use of plant resources whenever they had access to them. Unfortunately, this is effectively invisible from an isotopic standpoint.References:Henry, A., Piperno, D. 2008. Plants in Neandertal diet: Plant microfossil evidence from the dental calculus of Shanidar III. Paper presented on March 26, at the 2008 Annual Meetings of the Paleoanthropology Society, Vancouver, BC, Canada.Pearson, J. A. 2007. Hunters, fishers and scavengers: a review of the isotope evidence for Neanderthal diet. Before Farming 2007/2-2.Richards,M.P., Pettitt, P.B., Trinkaus, E., Smith, F.H., Karavanic´, I.,Paunovic´,M.,2000. Neanderthal diet at Vindija and Neanderthal predation: the evidencefrom stable isotopes. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. U.S.A. 97: 7663-7666.RICHARDS, M., TAYLOR, G., STEELE, T., MCPHERRON, S., SORESSI, M., JAUBERT, J., ORSCHIEDT, J., MALLYE, J., RENDU, W., HUBLIN, J. (2008). Isotopic dietary analysis of a Neanderthal and associated fauna from the site of Jonzac (Charente-Maritime), France. Journal of Human Evolution DOI: 10.1016/j.jhevol.2008.02.007... Read more »"
taken from:-

http://www.researchblogging.org/blogger/home/id/205?post_length=full

Given there are now current studies proving beyond doubt that neanderthals ate a variety of plant foods, it's not possible to claim a zc approach for them any more.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 10:18:36 pm by TylerDurden »
"What is the point of growing up If you can't be childish sometimes..." - Tom Baker as Dr Who.

alphagruis

  • Guest
Re: Paleo - just a nother eating disorder?
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2010, 09:13:57 pm »
I always thought the bones were the best place to look for what diet we consumed through the paleolithic era. There isn't much else right? Perhaps bones from animals or cave paintings, which I've heard here have not had one single plant life drawn and only animals.

Every paper I've seen on stable isotope analysis of paleolithic era bones shows that we were carnivore. Even very recently, and this article has been posted here, that 7700 year old bones "discovered Scientists at Bradford University measured the nitrogen and carbon levels in her bone and discovered that she had an almost exclusively carnivorous diet, eating almost as much meat as a wolf."

http://www.shef.ac.uk/pr/press_releases/pr02/28aug02.html

As TD points out, from a technical as well as a statistical point of view such clear cut conclusions drawn from isotope analysis of a few remains are highly questionable. It is unfortunately not possible to discuss these technical matters seriously here.

Much more converging evidence from several independant sources is needed to convince scientists of the reality of such a daring and for many reasons unlikely hypothesis.

I do not definitely dismiss this possibility of course. Yet the only reasonable serious position by now is that we can absolutely not yet conclude that our paleo ancestors were merely carnivores.    

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk