Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Other Raw-Animal-Food Diets (eg:- Primal Diet/Raw Version of Weston-Price Diet etc.) => Primal Diet => Topic started by: MoonStalkeR on October 25, 2010, 09:19:48 pm
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With raw milk in the perspective, we can look at lactose intolerance as existing in forms. First there's the population being able to digest any lactose - including heated lactose devoid of enzymes. These are people who are supposedly genetically adapted to dairy to various degrees. Most that show lactose intolerance to pasteurized dairy don't have the symptoms when consuming raw dairy, because of the presence of lactase. However, there are individuals who get lactose intolerance symptoms regardless of the dairy being raw or not. If you know you have lactose intolerance and had experience with raw milk, vote in the poll.
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This is not a proper poll as many do not consume fresh milk. There are more people consuming fermented dairy, cheese, butter, etc., which do not have measurable quantities of lactose.
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Fresh milk is more paleo than cheese, butter etc... If you kill a female animal it will have some milk which you can drink.
I used to drink pasteurised milk all the time and never had any overt problems that I could attribute directly to its' consumption, I enjoyed it very much. Doesn't mean it was good though. The only thing I used to have overtly obvious directly attributable problems with was grain. I've drunk raw milk once, a few weeks ago, and it was fine. I wouldn't consume it regularly, as it doesn't make sense to.
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Fresh milk is more paleo than cheese, butter etc... If you kill a female animal it will have some milk which you can drink.
I used to drink pasteurised milk all the time and never had any overt problems that I could attribute directly to its' consumption, I enjoyed it very much. Doesn't mean it was good though. The only thing I used to have overtly obvious directly attributable problems with was grain. I've drunk raw milk once, a few weeks ago, and it was fine. I wouldn't consume it regularly, as it doesn't make sense to.
There's nothing less paleo about cheese. Cheese originally is just a storage method, similar to drying meat.
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I would say that raw butter added to RAF diet would roughly mimic our energy requirements far better than milk without any of the additional other issues regarding lactose or casein to boot. none of them would be consumed regularly in the past, and I'd much rather eat suitable foods for my present state of health that improper foods or macro-ratios regardless of how long they existed on the planet. While something like coconuts have been around for 15 million years, I am quite certain represent a less efficient and possibly less healthful fat in my body.
its pretty much impossible to attain a reasonable ammount of this 'ancestral energy' without employing modern means of freezing or rendering. i haven't had luck with the latter, and do consume many frozen marrow bones, but butter fat lasts at least one month unfrozen in my fridge and compliments a variety of foods like seafood and fruit as a fat source when pure animal fat does not.
I find all raw unsalted butter, cream, and small bites of cheese (on occasion therapeutically) to be pretty revolting eaten alone as foods, and yet eat them that way and exclude milk which I love to drink, so go figure. To me there are issues other than lactose in fresh raw milk which people are having problems with, as milk's high sugar content alone can be problematic to large parts of the population.
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Note that even raw butter contains traces of lactose and casein so people with allergies to those can often get symptoms from raw butter even so.
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I voted none....
However I don't drink milk because of the above mentioned reasons, very high lactose content, and lots of carbs (I prefer to get my sugars and carbs from fruits and veggies as that seems more natural to me).
The lactose in cheese and butter is negligible amount, and may not be enough to cause an allergy for me, but who knows what would happen if I took in lots of lactose every day...
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This is not a proper poll as many do not consume fresh milk. There are more people consuming fermented dairy, cheese, butter, etc., which do not have measurable quantities of lactose.
It applies to fresh milk.
I would say that raw butter added to RAF diet would roughly mimic our energy requirements far better than milk without any of the additional other issues regarding lactose or casein to boot. none of them would be consumed regularly in the past, and I'd much rather eat suitable foods for my present state of health that improper foods or macro-ratios regardless of how long they existed on the planet. While something like coconuts have been around for 15 million years, I am quite certain represent a less efficient and possibly less healthful fat in my body.
its pretty much impossible to attain a reasonable ammount of this 'ancestral energy' without employing modern means of freezing or rendering. i haven't had luck with the latter, and do consume many frozen marrow bones, but butter fat lasts at least one month unfrozen in my fridge and compliments a variety of foods like seafood and fruit as a fat source when pure animal fat does not.
I find all raw unsalted butter, cream, and small bites of cheese (on occasion therapeutically) to be pretty revolting eaten alone as foods, and yet eat them that way and exclude milk which I love to drink, so go figure. To me there are issues other than lactose in fresh raw milk which people are having problems with, as milk's high sugar content alone can be problematic to large parts of the population.
Butter is a practical, easily digested, and flexible resource as you mentioned. I rarely find quality raw butter so it's not always available for me. How do you obtain your raw dairy?
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At last I got a stand mixer yesterday. I made a substantial amount of butter with it today. It came out better than any butter I've made or had. I eat raw grassfed dairy, but still have to follow sensible rules of food combing and digestion.
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Note that even raw butter contains traces of lactose and casein so people with allergies to those can often get symptoms from raw butter even so.
you know, even cyanide is very safe in these amounts, we are talking about micro-grams. no one under any circumstances will ever feel the effect of few mcg of lactose.
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you know, even cyanide is very safe in these amounts, we are talking about micro-grams. no one under any circumstances will ever feel the effect of few mcg of lactose.
The above is of course a load of b*ll and a common Primal Diet myth. RVAFers, in the past, have mentioned having severe lactose-allergies and getting nasty side-effects from eating raw butter. Some of those got negative reactions immediately while others got nasty reactions later on, after continuous consulption of raw butter.
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Note that even raw butter contains traces of lactose and casein so people with allergies to those can often get symptoms from raw butter even so.
My experience is that pasteurized milk was bad news with all the usual LI issues. When I finally figured it out I gave it up. However I had no problems with pasteurized butter and ate lots of it and then I made ghee (clarified butter) with the pasteurized butter and had no problems with that despite eating plenty of it daily.
I used to find that non-raw-cheese constipated me badly but raw cheese doesn't do this to me unless I eat a huge amount of it.
Raw milk causes me none of the Lactose Intolerance issues.
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The above is of course a load of b*ll
that's just your opinion which is pretty baseless, i presented a fact that cyanide in few mcg is very safe (90mg is lethal dose) and you call it a BS? no need to keep arguing with you.
and another thing, you keep referencing those anonymous "RVAFers" very often, well, they must be on some other forum because i did not come across many active users on this forum who are having problems with raw butter. in fact, i think there more forum users who benefit from raw butter than your so called "RVAFers".
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My opinion is that since the amounts of lactose and casein in raw butter is so small, the actual problems that most people claim to experience regarding energy or other symptoms (or any quoted long term deficiencies) on raw dairy have absolutely no relation to known severe lactose or casein issues that people experience with pasteurized dairy. I agree with ys, and as I believe the other dairy critics claim the issue goes at least beyond lactose or having little to do with the lactose but with other (unknown and speculative) properties largely based in dairy not being consumed millions of years ago.
many people with LI do not in fact experience the same specific problems with raw milk as with pasteurized milk despite the fact that no one would argue that it doesn't contain lactose and casein. This does not make raw milk healthy per se or that it would not create other issues in people from selected from whole spectrum of health. Therefore it also does not mean that certain individuals are adapted to something and that this adaptation means they are healthy or unhealthy or that these things are fixed. All of this points to the issue being far more complicated then lactose, as all things being perfectly controlled, a person that had intolerance due to lactose in pasteurized milk would indeed have no problems with raw milk, or certainly raw butter from that perspective. With cultured butter or making ghee, ironically as raw-al points out, there are ways of essentially removing lactose thorough process of clarifying. Granted people can rightly claim the heat aspect in making this toxic, but the 'excuse' aspect ultimately falls on the side of those that get the same symptoms in the virtual absence of lactose.
In terms of imperfect non-controlled daily life, with fresh raw milk it is not as strait-forward because as I understand it, even folks like Aajonus (or at least his followers that I have talked to) agree that fresh milk might not be appropriate food at all times for everyone, particularly in the first few years on that diet. The issue often mentioned is indeed: (run for the hills) heavy metals.
While its always seen as an excuse that things like detox, interaction with existing past consumed dairy 'deposits', or interaction with non breast fed tissue or the like the are mentioned in regards to dairy, its by far the logical conclusion(s). We know that things like peanuts, gluten, and many industrial products that cause allergies can never result in good health but there seems to be some acceptance that raw dairy at least works for some people. Although perhaps this is a totally disingenuous compromise from people who just flat out believe raw butter is harmful.
Allergies that are really environmental/fungal issues seem to be at the root of all intolerance to healthy foods like seafood and fruits and the like and can usually be corrected through various protocols and might not go away just eating any natural diet. So its no mystery that if ones intolerance is due to some kind of internal build up of casein, there is no long term non-dairy approach that will necessarily fix this situation - that is if it is something one cares about.
Some people have terrible reactions to high potent raw foods that do have detoxifying effects like oysters, organ meats, high meats, and eggs which are considered to be part of a healthy diet. Its not always suggested that these foods be continued or the experiences are automatically positive for that moment, but rarely is it some element within the food that is causing the underlying issue. Its hard to speak about long term issues of magnesium ratios and so forth, but as I've said above, I've been through some negative experiences with raw dairy and still find now it to be a far better choice in fuel and more appropriate to my composition and heritage than all frozen fats or any tropical or sub-tropical plant fats.
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that's just your opinion which is pretty baseless, i presented a fact that cyanide in few mcg is very safe (90mg is lethal dose) and you call it a BS? no need to keep arguing with you.
and another thing, you keep referencing those anonymous "RVAFers" very often, well, they must be on some other forum because i did not come across many active users on this forum who are having problems with raw butter. in fact, i think there more forum users who benefit from raw butter than your so called "RVAFers".
You are missing the point. First of all, cyanide is not lactose, so it is an irrelevant comparison as people react in different ways to different toxins, anyway. Some can react to tiny traces of whatever particular toxin that others feel nothing towards. As for cyanide, while it is present in a few fruits, from what I understand, it is often bound up with other substances in compounds in that food which render it ineffective re poisoning, or, in other cases, is usually bound up in seeds which only become toxic if one actually chews and breaks up each one of a multitude of such seeds at a time ; instead of the usual bolting them down whole with the rest of the food.
The reference re "RVAFers" shows particular ignorance but is quite understandable as you have not been a RVAFer long enough nor, clearly, have you been checking such raw forums as livefood or the rawpaleodiet yahoo group and others where it has been mentioned. This particular forum is hardly likely to have many people even bothering to try raw butter as most people quit raw dairy soon after finding out that 2 or more types of raw dairy do not agree with them. And, as regards other RVAF diet forums which are too fanatically pro-raw dairy, anyone who dares to critise raw dairy in any way, let alone raw butter, usually gets forced off the forum sooner or later.
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After some checking via wikipedia, it turns out that the previous claim that lactose in raw butter was merely a question of micrograms seems to be pure nonsense. As this reference shows, the amount of lactose in butter is c.0.03 grams per teaspoon:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butter#cite_note-43
The above claim by KD re ghee is indeed somewhat compromised by the fact that heating adds on heat-created toxins to the resulting ghee. But, more to the point, there is a fallacy in the reasoning since it is quite possible for people to have problems with raw dairy not just from lactose but also from casein, the imbalanced calcium:magnesium ratio, the hormones etc. etc. So, if someone also got issues from ghee, that would not mean that they did not get symptoms from the lactose as well. Besides, it is a notorious myth that ghee contains no lactose, it does albeit much less than raw butter.
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amount of lactose in butter is c.0.03 grams per teaspoon:-
Exactly, .03 grams is 30mcg, do you know how small that is? about the size of the dust particle. I agree with KD, it so small it can be ignored.
That's what I thought, "RVAFers" you are referring to live in other forums. I am not interested in other forums. Most people on THIS forum do not have issues with butter.
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Tyler,
Re ghee: I did not experience any of the mythical "heat created toxins" to which you allude. I get the impression that you make this stuff up as you go, or read reports of the people who agree with your conclusions.
Pasteurized butter is also heated, as by definition of pasteurization, but yet I did not suffer from any heat related toxins that you mention. This is my personal experience as apposed to some mythical reference to some study or Wiki (Wackipedia) link that shows a reductionist proof that butter is deadly poisonous. ??? ;D
I was under the understanding that this forum was for primal dieters which means that dairy is a part of their diet and they are OK with that. So I am curious as to why you insist on ranting here about your personal issue. We all know from your ceaseless foaming at the keyboard ;D that you cannot eat dairy. How many ways do you have to be told this before you get the point.
Some of your posts are typed in such haste that you make lots of errors. You indicated that KD said something about ghee when it was myself. You missed the point of the cyanide example totally.
All these mythical people in the world who have issues with dairy can speak for themselves and you should speak for yourself also, because it is normal to have people say things on the web which are inaccurate. If they say things then they can defend their statements.
As far as discussing fanaticism you are a fine one to be pointing fingers. Your anti-dairy fanaticism is just about as virulent as I have witnessed on any forum on any subject. At least on some forums people are saying things as a joke. You sound deadly serious! LOL
You make it sound like the millions of people in the world who are insane enough to consume dairy, :o even "micrograms" (dust particles LOL ) are going to be showing up in insane asylums and obituaries. Then you'll be sorry. Give me a break.
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I kind of get the feeling that your crusade against dairy is done for the wrong reasons, i.e. you being 'right' on the internet. Don't get me wrong, I like and I think you're quite knowledgeable, but your ego feels explosive sometimes.
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Exactly, .03 grams is 30mcg, do you know how small that is? about the size of the dust particle. I agree with KD, it so small it can be ignored.
That's what I thought, "RVAFers" you are referring to live in other forums. I am not interested in other forums. Most people on THIS forum do not have issues with butter.
You were previously making up imaginary figures, pretending that lactose in raw butter was measured only in micrograms(millionths of a gram). 0.03 is substantially more than mere micrograms so cannot be ignored convincingly.
As for issues with raw butter re lactose, I have already stated that it is rare but it does exist as I have already pointed out, so should not be ignored. Rareness does not imply nonexistence, so that is just pointless. More to the point, there are many other problems with raw dairy other than lactose, such as casein-related issues, etc. etc.
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OK Tyler we got your point. There is one person in the world that suffers from LI with butter. And now he has been informed. (You've reminded yourself)
There are more people that suffer from the dust that they breathe at night with their mouths open, LOL than suffer from butter dust inhalation.
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I kind of get the feeling that your crusade against dairy is done for the wrong reasons, i.e. you being 'right' on the internet. Don't get me wrong, I like and I think you're quite knowledgeable, but your ego feels explosive sometimes.
Rubbish. My reason for being anti-dairy is as follows:- I previously was on other raw forums where truly hysterical and near-psychotic pro-raw dairy advocates kept on trying to pretend via "shouting" online etc., at the time, that it was absolutely physically impossible for anyone to be allergic to raw dairy or raw butter in any way. They would say stupid things such as that raw butter contained absolutely no lactose, and the like. It became almost impossible for the those who did badly on raw dairy to mention problems with raw dairy without a certain hardcore element of pro-raw dairy morons shutting them down.
That is not all of course. The fact is that raw dairy is THE no1 most reported problem food on a RVAF diet. Indeed, one of the main reasons for rawpaleoforum's popularity(vis-avis some other RVAF diet forums I won't mention) is precisely its anti-raw-dairy stance.
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OK Tyler we got your point. There is one person in the world that suffers from LI with butter. And now he has been informed. (You've reminded yourself)
There are more people that suffer from the dust that they breathe at night with their mouths open, LOL than suffer from butter dust inhalation.
Since other RVAFers have mentioned having LI-related issues towards raw butter, that is just a foolish remark, based on ignorance.
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I think if people do better on an unheated milk product that contains some or lots of lactose than a heated and basically-lactose-free product regarding their lactose specific issues, then that speaks of something worth mentioning per the OP.
As for caseine, butter can have less than 1 gram per 1/4 lb consumed or 800 cal serving. Depending on the process I imagine it can be even less than that.
unfortunately for our purposes in this discussion, neither culturing or ghee remove casein and lactose entirely. My point in mentioning ghee was how close to this model we could get and if there was a process that did (which i'm sure its feasible with a little modern technology to remove all of these atoms) that I AGREE the dairy would still give such symptoms for these people. Unfortunately for your argument, although this seems to be a concession that dairy is bad regardless, magnesium ratios and Betacellulin and Estrogens and other naturally occurring hormones (as i assume you don't mean from commercial raw milk products) are not known to cause the immediate particular symptoms often claim in people that 'try' milk or raw dairy fat. And in fact, resemble entirely other known process like fungal interaction and detox. So the likelihood is, people experience these symptoms for the very reason that is suspect, that it interacts with other damage done by past consumption of pasteurized dairy or faulty genetics and other damage done by cooked foods or infant feeding. If this was not the case, there would be no individuals that benefited whatsoever in their LACTOSE and CASEIN SPECIFIC issues switching from pasteurized to raw because they would be equally damaged by the same amounts of lactose and casein, with he only additions being heat-created toxins and additional chemically created hormones.
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Rubbish. My reason for being anti-dairy is as follows:- I previously was on other raw forums where truly hysterical and near-psychotic pro-raw dairy advocates kept on trying to pretend via "shouting" online etc., at the time, that it was absolutely physically impossible for anyone to be allergic to raw dairy or raw butter in any way. They would say stupid things such as that raw butter contained absolutely no lactose, and the like. It became almost impossible for the those who did badly on raw dairy to mention problems with raw dairy without a certain hardcore element of pro-raw dairy morons shutting them down.
That is not all of course. The fact is that raw dairy is THE no1 most reported problem food on a RVAF diet. Indeed, one of the main reasons for rawpaleoforum's popularity(vis-avis some other RVAF diet forums I won't mention) is precisely its anti-raw-dairy stance.
Yeah, and your approach doesn't sound much different than theirs. Except in the opposite direction.
Anywho, CBA to argue.
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Raw al, you as usual have stated an obvious fallacy in trying to pretend that heating butter to make ghee does not create heat-created toxins. Any substantial form of heating above a certain point, as opposed to mere warming, will create some levels of heat-created toxins. Indeed, it is most interesting to note that butter when heated contains a large amount of heat-created toxins, such as AGEs:-
http://www.diabetesdaily.com/forum/food-diet/48755-butter-just-because-its-l
And, hypocritically, you demonstrate that you have not read my posts since you keep on mentioning the nonsense re micrograms when I have already pointed out that the amount of lactose in butter is actually much higher than that.
As for the raw-dairy-issues, I should point out that rawpaleoforum was initially created as a refuge for the multitude of RVAFers who have done badly on raw dairy in the past. Granted, this is the primal diet forum for the minority of raw-dairy drinkers here, but that does not allow such people to get away with false "terminological inexactitudes" such as the claim that LI is mpossible towards raw butter or that lactose in raw butter supposedly is only measured in microgams. Besides, the 1st post of this thread admitted the existence of LI towards raw dairy and wanted a poll on the issue.
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Yeah, and your approach doesn't sound much different than theirs. Except in the opposite direction.
Anywho, CBA to argue.
In order to successfully fight evil, one is sometimes forced to adopt some of the evil side's methods in order to succeed. Not all the time, mind you. Indeed, it was my original idea to have the extra forums for Primal Dieters and even a raw forum for the loathesome WAPF diet as I wanted the whole RVAF diet spectrum to be represented.
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KD, you are forgetting an obvious point, judging from the beyondveg.com website, that heat changes lactose and casein making them more potent re causing allergenic effects. This would explain why people react more severely towards pasteurised dairy than raw dairy.
Plus, I have come across a number of people who in the past claimed to do well with raw dairy(usually only raw butter, though), then over time they got rid of most of their health-problems, only for them to gradually discover that they actually did badly on the stuff, re having minor health problems as a result. I cannot imagine that their raw dairy-related issues had anything to do with a cooked-food past as these people had already had from 2 to 7 years of rawpalaeodiets and had recovered from their past health-problems got from cooked diets, that is, aside from the minor side-effects caused by the raw butter or other raw dairy.
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In order to successfully fight evil, one is sometimes forced to adopt some of the evil side's methods in order to succeed. Not all the time, mind you. Indeed, it was my original idea to have the extra forums for Primal Dieters and even a raw forum for the loathesome WAPF diet as I wanted the whole RVAF diet spectrum to be represented.
I think that what you really wanted was a way to dump on others and make yourself right. Another word is self-righteous.
I think you are watching too many Harry Potter movies. ;) You are now referring to anyone who drinks milk as evil..... Good grief!
Maybe you ought to take a break from posting. I think that you're "one toke over the line sweet Jesus". LOL
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The reference to evil was merely a joke, but naturally you chose to view that differently, since you have no sense of humour.
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ok, your approach to dairy subject smells really fanatical. it is pointless to debate with you. no matter what i say i'll never prove you anything.
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Rubbish. My reason for being anti-dairy is as follows:- I previously was on other raw forums where truly hysterical and near-psychotic pro-raw dairy advocates kept on trying to pretend via "shouting" online etc., at the time, that it was absolutely physically impossible for anyone to be allergic to raw dairy or raw butter in any way. They would say stupid things such as that raw butter contained absolutely no lactose, and the like. It became almost impossible for the those who did badly on raw dairy to mention problems with raw dairy without a certain hardcore element of pro-raw dairy morons shutting them down.
That is not all of course. The fact is that raw dairy is THE no1 most reported problem food on a RVAF diet. Indeed, one of the main reasons for rawpaleoforum's popularity(vis-avis some other RVAF diet forums I won't mention) is precisely its anti-raw-dairy stance.
I have not seen any of these mythical people here on this forum and so what if there is. Does that mean that you have to become a truly hysterical and near-psychotic anti-raw dairy advocates kept on trying to pretend via "shouting" online etc., at the time, that it was absolutely physically impossible for anyone to be allergic to raw dairy or raw butter in any way.
It became almost impossible for the those who did badly well on raw dairy to mention pleasure and no issues with raw dairy without a certain hardcore element of anti-raw dairy moron s shutting them down.
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KD, you are forgetting an obvious point, judging from the beyondveg.com website, that heat changes lactose and casein making them more potent re causing allergenic effects. This would explain why people react more severely towards pasteurised dairy than raw dairy.
Plus, I have come across a number of people who in the past claimed to do well with raw dairy(usually only raw butter, though), then over time they got rid of most of their health-problems, only for them to gradually discover that they actually did badly on the stuff, re having minor health problems as a result. I cannot imagine that their raw dairy-related issues had anything to do with a cooked-food past as these people had already had from 2 to 7 years of rawpalaeodiets and had recovered from their past health-problems got from cooked diets, that is, aside from the minor side-effects caused by the raw butter or other raw dairy.
ok, well I should have said that is my opinion, I suppose. I understand that from your perspective eating raw dairy would then be only a healthier version of cooked dairy, but I don't see it that way. Either way, I don't think one can then cite lactose or casein specifically as the issue as obviously some people overcome some degree of official intolerance while others are largely self diagnosed anyway and can't pinpoint exactly what the factor is. If the products were merely not as mutated or whatever, and they truly had an intolerance to lactose or casein, the odds of the foods being beneficial otherwise would be fairly slim, and would not take years to be problematic even just in basic things like poor digestion/flatulence etc..
As for raw dairy being long term hazardous (at least in minor ways) I'm willing to entertain that myself as a possibility. I'm just saying that largely when I hear of people on vegan or paleo diets trying some manner of raw dairy, it seems to not only mimic my own beginning mixed experiences with all manner of raw foods, but other people's experience trying raw meats or raw fruits and running the other way etc... I know you've mentioned in other threads that one or two types of dairy is enough to tell if all dairy is good for you or not, but I believe that is entirely unfair, based on my own experiences. To me replacing the butter I eat with any possible ratio of cheese:milk would be fairly bad news, and if I thought that was the only alternative or that it spoke for all WOEs I would certainly be pretty anti-it.
The logic I presented still makes sense to me re detox stuff but its certainly not factual by any means. I just think if I eat an egg and get diarrhea or have poor energy i'm not going to assume I am allergic to eggs or biotin or that eggs are just not good. Even when I can recognize that their might be legitimate criticisms around how many eggs we would eat or other nutritional factors. Whatever is legitimately 'wrong' with eggs, it is likely not effecting my immediate sense of well being that drastically as I've eaten far worse (in fact cooked eggs with the same compounds! :) ) in my lifetime with no similar effect. I can certainly understand the frustration perhaps of people telling you something is good when it doesn't feel that way I guess, but I think everyone at least should have their own trials without suggesting every negative symptom can be reduced to this or that, particularly when there are known exceptions.
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I was under the understanding that this forum was for primal dieters which means that dairy is a part of their diet and they are OK with that. So I am curious as to why you insist on ranting here about your personal issue. We all know from your ceaseless foaming at the keyboard ;D that you cannot eat dairy. How many ways do you have to be told this before you get the point.
Ding ding ding. ;D
TD; I can fully understand why you are so virulently against dairy but this IS the Primal Diet sub-forum. Attacks on dairy, other than constructive discussion, should be a no-fly zone here. Much like the carnivorous members have been chastised for demonizing carbs in the Omni forum. ;)
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Ding ding ding. ;D
TD; I can fully understand why you are so virulently against dairy but this IS the Primal Diet sub-forum. Attacks on dairy, other than constructive discussion, should be a no-fly zone here. Much like the carnivorous members have been chastised for demonizing carbs in the Omni forum. ;)
It wasn't me who started this but ys, earlier in this thread, with that irrelevant claim re cyanide and the micrograms mention. I was not specifically attacking raw dairy anyway, merely correcting a common fallacy held by pro-raw dairy advocates. Correcting obvious errors is perfectly acceptable. Besides, the original poster was interested , in his 1st post, to find out who experienced lactose-intolerance towards raw dairy, there was no mention of the silly notion that LI towards raw dairy does not exist.
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It wasn't me who started this but ys,
yeah, right,
Note that even raw butter contains traces of lactose and casein so people with allergies to those can often get symptoms from raw butter even so.
i simply replied that the amount of lactose in butter can be safely ignored.
please tell us how many people on THIS forum get allergic reactions from eating butter? if it is just you then you should keep it to yourself as your constant butter bashing does not bring any value to THIS forum.
and second, i do not advocate dairy, or anything else for that matter. i do not recommend anything, it is you who peddles anti-dairy.
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LOL, another dairy argument :D
It's like beating a dead horse....
Why don't we just accept that some people can't eat it and some can, and in between there is people that can eat it to varying degrees, wow - that's not a difficult concept is it?
Dairy is not essential, thats for sure, anyone can have a healthy diet without dairy...so who cares if you can eat it or not. If you can't eat it you are not missing out on anything but the fact that its tasty and gives you energy. If you keep getting reaction to eating it just stop eating it, but don't say that lots of people have a reaction to even the slightest bit of raw dairy, I think MOST do NOT have a reaction, except the one thats in their head.
To most people, the ones that can eat dairy, the amount of lactose, or casein or whatever other thing some people can't assimilate, is actually irrelevant. And the less amount of casein or lactose something has the less relevant it is. If this post is addressing lactose intolerance, then butter and cheese have little enough of it that MOST people can tolerate it. And besides those things, dairy has some nice bonuses, its nutritious AND yummi....and the stuff about it giving you a calcium overdose, I don't buy it, unless you are deficient in magnesium or something, or are drinking milk like its water or air....otherwise if all your minerals are in check the calcium from dairy should not hurt you or give you brittle bones. If you eat so much dairy that you get imbalance of too much calcium you're either eating too much, or you are not eating enough of other minerals. IMO!
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yeah, right,
i simply replied that the amount of lactose in butter can be safely ignored.
please tell us how many people on THIS forum get allergic reactions from eating butter? if it is just you then you should keep it to yourself as your constant butter bashing does not bring any value to THIS forum.
and second, i do not advocate dairy, or anything else for that matter. i do not recommend anything, it is you who peddles anti-dairy.
The whole point is that the original question of this thread assumed that there was a real possibility that lactose-intolerance towards raw dairy really existed and enquired as to who did have LI issues towards raw dairy. Already, 3 others , apart from me, have already reported such in that poll, and given that polls are unreliable as only a small proportion in a forum ever participates in a poll, one can be reasonably certain that more have issues with raw butter re LI, but are merely not as willing as me to be so open about it. And your arrogance in pretending that people from other RVAF diet forums somehow do not count, is typical sign of your bias.
At least, I have shown your comment re micrograms of lactose in butter to be patently false. That you cannot squirm away from, convincingly.
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Yuli, you are missing the point as usual. The fact that only a minority are affected by lactose-intolerance towards raw butter does not, in itself, mean that all raw dairy is mostly harmless for people. Indeed, the vast majority of people join rawpaleoforum precisely because they have some form of dairy-allergy. Issues with raw dairy are simply FAR more common than any other issue in the RVAF diet world.
As regards the calcium:magnesium ratio, I remember some hardcore Primal Dieters on the Primal Diet yahoo group finally admitting that they deliberately ate lots of pumpkin seeds(high in magnesium, low in calcium) in order to protect themselves against the consequences of eating raw dairy which had far too much calcium in it.
In our sister group, the rawpaleodiet yahoo group, I too had 1 guy openly stating repeatedly that raw dairy was oh so wonderful and that he had no allergies towards it or whatever - after a year or two, he had to finally admit that he was facing hospitalisation because he had magnesium-deficiency as a result of his dairy-consumption(which was not excessive). Similiarly, I have had other acquaintances from Germany etc. invariably stating that they seemed to do fine on raw butter only for them to admit, years later, that it was giving them some minor health-problems.
At any rate, the overwhelming success of rawpaleoforum re membership, by comparison to other raw-dairy-eating RVAF diet forums, does rather indicate that far more people have issues with raw dairy than AV and others like to pretend.
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please tell us how many people on THIS forum get allergic reactions from eating butter? if it is just you then you should keep it to yourself as your constant butter bashing does not bring any value to THIS forum.
I do.
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Indeed, the vast majority of people join rawpaleoforum precisely because they have some form of dairy-allergy. Issues with raw dairy are simply FAR more common than any other issue in the RVAF diet world.
Really? Well I don't know as many RVAF people as you so I only speculate, I guess...but what I have found to be very common issues are, thyroid problems, digestion issues, sugar and FAT issues. Just saying... most people get into RVAF due to some digestion problems, and I think a majority of those digestion issues are due to consuming grains, especially grains with meats, especially processed grains, pasteurized milk etc. Most of those issues are fixed by eliminating grains, pasteurized stuff and cooked foods. There are a lot of problems brought up among RVAFers concerning combinations of plant and animal products, or how much they can tolerate, I don't know if that total is less then issues brought up with raw dairy, but to me it just seems like it...also how many people don't pretend not to have other issues that include raw animal and plant foods...anyway, just speculating, in no way I am saying I am right because it APPEARS that way to me -\ I may be surprised the longer I follow this WOE - or I may not, who knows
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Also what comes to mind here is that how many people here claim they can't eat fruit and that fruit is garbage.
Now does that make it so? No it doesn't. That's why I only trust my own instincts when it comes to dairy.
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Fruit is not the same as raw dairy as it was eaten for far longer than raw dairy. Granted, many people may have issues with raw fruit due to modern illnesses, but it is telling that the vast majority of fruit-loathing RZCers and fruit-loving raw omnivores, here, both have issues with raw dairy. That means raw dairy causes far more problems than raw fruit as the former is non-palaeo.
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Fruit is not the same as raw dairy as it was eaten for far longer than raw dairy. Granted, many people may have issues with raw fruit due to modern illnesses, but it is telling that the vast majority of fruit-loathing RZCers and fruit-loving raw omnivores, here, both have issues with raw dairy. That means raw dairy causes far more problems than raw fruit as the former is non-palaeo.
Wasn't the point. I was saying that people here CLAIM they have issues with fruit. I know why they do and the problem is not the fruit it self.
Not saying the same is for dairy, I'm stating this as to WHY I don't just take peoples word for it that dairy doesn't work. Comprende?
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Wasn't the point. I was saying that people here CLAIM they have issues with fruit. I know why they do and the problem is not the fruit it self.
Not saying the same is for dairy, I'm stating this as to WHY I don't just take peoples word for it that dairy doesn't work. Comprende?
Well, in many cases it might well be the veg as some may report different issues with raw veg, for example.
As regards raw dairy, there are so many other issues, other than the lactose-casein angle, such as hormones etc., that it is somewhat unlikely for any other factor to enter into play such as some obscure detox mechanism despite being years away from cooked diets.
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It wasn't me who started this but ys, earlier in this thread, with that irrelevant claim re cyanide and the micrograms mention. I was not specifically attacking raw dairy anyway, merely correcting a common fallacy held by pro-raw dairy advocates. Correcting obvious errors is perfectly acceptable. Besides, the original poster was interested , in his 1st post, to find out who experienced lactose-intolerance towards raw dairy, there was no mention of the silly notion that LI towards raw dairy does not exist.
Tyler,
You and you alone repeatedly start this racquet about dairy. You are so focused on this rag of yours that you fail to comprehend what others are saying, but just keep steamrolling ahead with you gobbledegook. In fact I have read so many of your silly fatuous BS that I have arived at the conclusion that a large percentage of what you say on any subject is HS. (Horses are non-dairy) ;)
By posting in this manner it reflects on the rest of raw food eaters in a poor light because we unfortunately get tarred with the same brush when people want to learn about a raw diet. Presumably they come to this site and start reading the posts and when they see some nutbar pontificating about how we are all gonna be teats up on the streets from drinking the evil empire's poison of poisons "Dairy" then they might be inclined to say.... "Hmmmm.... I eat lots of dairy and I am still alive, so maybe these raw foodies are a bunch of nutbars".
I am not a pro-anything advocate, I am not a dairy addict or any of the other insults that you hurl. I like dairy, I have no problems with it and like a lot of other people, will continue to consume it until I do have problems with it which pretty much covers how I will treat eating any type of food whether it be raw or cooked or injected.
I have read in other threads where you have said that you are proud of your history of beng on an anti-dairy crusade (your words) and of all the good you have done by posting as such. Personally I observe that you read like an extremist. The crazy old fart that comes on late night radio phone-in shows discussing alien abductions.
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The above is rather moronic, a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black, and perfectly illustrates your own fanaticism re raw dairy and proves I have been right in the past re criticising similiar fanatical pro-raw-dairy broadcasts online. So far, after I merely made 1 or 2 simple factual statements re raw dairy, such as the point that people complain about raw dairy far more often than about any other raw food, you have mindlessly, in a desperate attempt to provoke, pounced on such a statement without even thinking. I understand that people might get a little upset about other people criticising things they are addicted to, but this is just ridiculous.Perhaps even trollish...hmmm
Anyway, as usual, you have been falsely and deliberately "re-interpreting" /exaggerating what I actually said. I have not suggested that raw dairy was 100 percent lethal, at any stage. Indeed, I was the one who originally insisted that this and the WAPF forum be set up to allow raw dairy drinkers a place on the forum. That, of course, does not mean that people can get away with the usual dodgy claims made by some fanatics such as the one that allergies towards raw dairy do not exist or whatever.
More to the point, the whole purpose of this thread was to determine which of us has LI issues towards raw dairy or to pasteurised dairy or to both or to neither, so your overly vehement slash and burn tactics have no place here and belong to some other thread(perhaps titled "why I hate all anti-raw-dairy advocates", preferably placed in the hot topics forum).