Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: TylerDurden on December 01, 2015, 09:57:20 pm
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3339996/Top-scientist-warns-health-timebomb-caused-prescription-drugs-washed-drains.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3339996/Top-scientist-warns-health-timebomb-caused-prescription-drugs-washed-drains.html)
We often go on about what foods to eat on this diet, but what we drink is often not mentioned. This is a mistake. For example, tapwater in London quickly tasted so disgusting once I went rawpalaeo that I was forced to drink water from high-alkaline/high-PH-value mineral water from then on or end up losing my appetite for raw animal foods as well. London tapwater is notorious for having passed through an average of 8 human bladders prior to reaching you. Here in Vienna, we get PH 7.8 tapwater which comes from Alpine streams so tastes fine, and I drink it all the time as Austrian mineral-water in bottles is too neutral in taste and PH value.
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No chlorine in Vienna's tap water? It would be an amazing exception!
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No chlorine in Vienna's tap water? It would be an amazing exception!
Thank you for giving me a wake-up call! Looking online:-
"Das Wiener Wasser aus der den Hochquellwasserleitungen zählt international zu den besten. Allerdings wird auch hier Chlor beigemengt, um eine Keimbildung zu vermeiden."
You were absolutely right, they do use chlorine to avoid a build-up of germs. Bloody fools!
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This all pisses me off. I cannot stand the ph-neutral mineral water bottles over here, I cannot avoid the air-pollution in the cities/seaside etc. which contain 2 of the types of heat-created toxins also found in cooked foods. Unless I get a permanent job in Antarctica, I stand zero chance of avoiding contamination of some sort.
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Chlorine is not that bad. We eat this diet so we don't have to worry about little things like that.
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Chlorine is not that bad. We eat this diet so we don't have to worry about little things like that.
LOL, it's a powerful disinfectant, a strong poison!
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Chlorine is not that bad. We eat this diet so we don't have to worry about little things like that.
Yeah, but why endure such things when you can avoid them? Also, eating clean alone doesn't automatically make you uber-healthy. Or else we could just stop sleeping, work in a nuclear central without a protection suit, and take after-work shots of roundup for the lols. Our ancestors breathed the fresh air of the forest, exercised everyday, slept regular hours and enjoyed plenty of vit.D boosting sun rays... I doubt they would feel as fresh if they ended up living the same lifestyle as ours (Or at least us city-rats)...and potentially live as long. I guess their threat were not pollution and lack of exercise, but rather night jaguars and wolfs.
BTW, the average dose of chlorine used in public swimming pools is harmful enough to make people develop asthma. I used to enjoy swimming, even if I was already asthmatic, but the chlorine made me wheeze so much that I had to quit swimming lessons. Now I don't have asthma anymore, but I certainly don't feel fresh when I stay in a chlorinated pool for too long, which happens maybe once a year.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-182679/Chlorine-link-asthma-surge.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-182679/Chlorine-link-asthma-surge.html)
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BTW, the average dose of chlorine used in public swimming pools is harmful enough to make people develop asthma. I used to enjoy swimming, even if I was already asthmatic, but the chlorine made me wheeze so much that I had to quit swimming lessons. Now I don't have asthma anymore, but I certainly don't feel fresh when I stay in a chlorinated pool for too long, which happens maybe once a year.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-182679/Chlorine-link-asthma-surge.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-182679/Chlorine-link-asthma-surge.html)
JK has made a very good point re chlorine in swimming-pools. As a child and later on as an adult, I used to swim in chlorinated swimming-pools, and I would always after each swimming-session end up with very red, wholly-bloodshot eyes as a result, feeling absolutely awful. My current swimming-pool at my local gym uses ozone-treatment(03) with only a microscopic amount of the chlorine found in most other swimming-pools, and it has not affected me adversely.
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LOL, it's a powerful disinfectant, a strong poison!
Your body contains a lot of chlorine. It's sodium CHLORIDE. That's SALT.
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A chemical compound does not have the same properties as the chemical element (atoms) its molecule contains!
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A chemical compound does not have the same properties as the chemical element (atoms) its molecule contains!
Very true! One of the most important points made by my favourite science teachers!
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A chemical compound does not have the same properties as the chemical element (atoms) its molecule contains!
So what do you think you get if you add chlorine to salty water?
More acidic water. Chlorine is the most common way for nature to make an aqueous solution more acidic. There's no real difference between the hydrochloric acid in your stomach and the chlorine added to the water supply. The stuff in your stomach is at a much higher concentration.
But double down on the stupidity. You're acting just like those people afraid of EMFs. LOL
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Very true! One of the most important points made by my favourite science teachers!
Seriously? You're going to act as Iguana's peanut gallery?
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Seriously? You're going to act as Iguana's peanut gallery?
Iguana was merely making a rather obvious point, one I had already learnt during my own science-education at school! More to the point, I had spent many decades, prior to going rawpalaeo, foolishly believing in all sorts of outrageous lies peddled by the scientific establishment. So, it really does not matter to me if you personally have a Nobel Prize or a PHD in the 3 Sciences or whatever. I will have to rely on my own personal experiences and cherry-pick among experiences of other RPDers. I trust people like raw-al with their negative experiences re EMF, for example, despite myself not having had such unpleasant incidences.
Plus, Iguana is our most distinguished RPDer here, having pursued RPD/Instincto for far more years/decades than any others here! He has my utmost respect, therefore.
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Chlorine isn't so bad, cooked bone meal is good, coffee benefits health, lightly cooking meats is about the same as eating them raw, are you sure this is still the right forum for you, cherimoya_kid?
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Chlorine isn't so bad, cooked bone meal is good, coffee benefits health, lightly cooking meats is about the same as eating them raw, are you sure this is still the right forum for you, cherimoya_kid?
I still eat about 98% raw, and my mind is open on the coffee issue. You seem to think this is a religion, though. It's not. If you want to be part of a cult that eats raw meat, I don't know what to tell you. I don't know of any. LOL
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Doing something seriously, at 100%, has nothing to do with a religion!
You may do it as a scientific experiment, for example: such experiments must be done with meticulous precautions to avoid any factor able to cause distortions in the results.
If you are driving an 18 wheeler, piloting a racing car, an airliner, or in charge of a nuclear power plant, you can’t afford to take 2% of risks. You aren’t in a religion or doing a cult because of your 100% dedication!
Another point is that the troubles caused by cooked food are not in linear proportion of the percentage of it. Eating 5% of cooked food may well cause 50% of the health problem you would have with a standard diet.
A third point: cooked food is addictive, like a drug. Once out of an addiction, like smoking for example, smoking again a cigarette may well lead you to smoke a second one… and why not a third one and so on? The experience showed us that almost all the ones who allowed themselves some “exceptional” cooked meals once in way, gradually (it may take a decade or two) reverted completely to a standard diet, in the end. It happened to several people I know well, such as my sister, a former girlfriend and some friends.
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Hm, by no means all...
I have been sometimes tempted by Christmas Dinners consisting of cooked foods followed inevitably by a cooked-food-detox afterwards, I still sometimes drink alcholic beverages etc., but I would never dare give up on rawpalaeo foods as a mainstay of my diet, ever, as I all too well recall the very nasty, intense crippling pain I used to suffer on a cooked-diet. All that said, I am still only 14+ years on an RPD diet, but still.... I guess, I am just saying that some of us may not be perfect, but don't give up hope on us, as a large majority of us only went in for RPD diets in the first place in order to escape appalling health-problems incurred on cooked diets!
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London Tap water was terrible, someone needs to warn those people, though it may already be too late to save them....
Chlorine is a terrible poison and drinking it in tap water is not suggested....its damage may be minimal comparatively speaking, but is accumulative and should be avoided if and whenever possible. Fluoride and chlorine, combine with all the other crap that many countries refuse to remove from the water supply is why I will not drink tap water. I'm a fucking tin foil helmet warrior in the fight for clean water, and chlorine and fluoride are chemicals which insidiously damage and weaken entire populations...whether or not it is deliberate dumbing down and culling the population or its just a perpetuation of ignorant water management practices is up for debate.. regardless there is a war going on be it against idiocy or a calculated brave new world order culling of the population thorough chemical attack.
After years of not drinking tap water I am so sensitive to the taste and smell of chlorine that just a sniff can tell me if its been treated or not.
At home I have a Water Generator, which we then run through a Niikken filter and also buy five gallon spring water to supplement when the humidity is low.
Systems of clean water which do not use chlorine are available, many countries such as Germany use very minimal chlorine, or use chlorine Dioxide(MMS) which is far safer. The Netherlands do not use chlorine fluoride or any disinfecting chemicals. I drank tap water copiously when in Amsterdam and can vouch for its clean non chemical taste...our host openly bragged about how they had a great water system and laughed about how many tourist wasted their money buying bottled water there.
http://www.sswm.info/sites/default/files/reference_attachments/SMEETS%202009%20The%20Dutch%20Secret%20How%20to%20provide%20safe%20drinking%20water%20without%20chlorine%20in%20the%20Netherlands.pdf (http://www.sswm.info/sites/default/files/reference_attachments/SMEETS%202009%20The%20Dutch%20Secret%20How%20to%20provide%20safe%20drinking%20water%20without%20chlorine%20in%20the%20Netherlands.pdf)
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I just don't see how having your water at a slightly lower pH is going to make that much of a difference. Maybe if you are deficient in the minerals that buffer pH, AND you drink a LOT of over-chlorinated water, there might be some cumulative effects over several years. Probably most of those effects can be easily fixed by a good raw paleo diet, though....or even just some extra minerals, especially calcium/magnesium.
I just don't see all the worry over these small issues as necessary. We'll never have credibility with the mainstream if we seem crazy and belief-oriented.
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The Dutch are very adamant about keeping fluoride and chlorine out of their water, and they do not seem crazy
Its not a small issue, especially when you consider that most small children in many places only have chlorinated and fluoridated water to drink... accumulative damage for those contaminated during development means lower IQ and weaker overall health and vitality for life!
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I just don't see how having your water at a slightly lower pH is going to make that much of a difference.
How much does arsenic acid lower the pH when compared to chlorine?
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How much does arsenic acid lower the pH when compared to chlorine?
Is that a trick question? I'd have to Google it to get the exact numbers.
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And if you have some theory about acidity having some kind of direct relationship to toxicity, don't bother. It's not nearly that simple.
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My point is that it doesn't all boil down to pH. Chlorine kills bacteria, yeast, algae and other living tissue because it is a chemical toxin, not simply because of it's acidity. You can get a certain level of pH by dissolving arsenic acid into water, or do the same with lemon juice. They're not equally toxic.
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My point is that it doesn't all boil down to pH. Chlorine kills bacteria, yeast, algae and other living tissue because it is a chemical toxin, not simply because of it's acidity. You can get a certain level of pH by dissolving arsenic acid into water, or do the same with lemon juice. They're not equally toxic.
Dario, chlorine is the 8th or 9th most common element in your body.
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Interestingly, mainstream science shows how chlorine(or related compounds) can be harmful:-
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4351252/ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4351252/)
My own stance re this is that Viennese water tastes fine to me so I will endure the issue of chlorine as I think they likely use smaller amounts than elsewhere. Whatever the case, Viennese tapwater tastes great while London tapwater always tasted foul due to constant recycling.
The other issue is PH value. I find PH 7 or below mineral water to taste not very good. Plus, according to what I have read elsewhere, people in palaeo times would normally drink water with a highish PH value(well, actually 7.2 to 8.4 or so). I used to get hold of PH value 8.4 mineral water from the Welsh Hills(Brecon Beacons?) - the stuff really invigorated me and I always felt marvellous afterwards.
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That study was about the effects of BREATHING chlorine gas that is off-gassing from swimming pools. That's not the same as drinking it. At all. Of course our lungs aren't designed to handle chlorine gas. However, our stomach acid is MOSTLY ChLORINE, for pete's sake.
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In water, chlorine reacts to form hypochlorous acid (HOCI).
Our stomach acid is hydrochloric acid (HCL).
Different compounds, different properties (once again)!
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In water, chlorine reacts to form hypochlorous acid (HOCI).
Our stomach acid is hydrochloric acid (HCL).
Different compounds, different properties (once again)!
So what harm can you prove, or even show any suggestion of? Because it looks like you have absolutely no proof of any harm, or anything that even resembles proof.
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I don't have to prove anything, HOCI is a strong disinfectant and YOU have to prove it's not harmful, since you pretend it's not.
The charge of such proof should belong to the ones who introduce new chemicals into our food and water. If this rule were respected, there wouldn't be so many pesticides, food additives and so on.
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I don't have to prove anything, HOCI is a strong disinfectant and YOU have to prove it's not harmful, since you pretend it's not.
The charge of such proof should belong to the ones who introduce new chemicals into our food and water. If this rule were respected, there wouldn't be so many pesticides, food additives and so on.
ROFL ok then. You clearly Googled it, found no proof, and are hoping I'll somehow be stupid enough to not see that. LOL
Come on, Francois. You know me better than that.
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Actually, upon googling it, it looks like chlorine reacting with organic material in water produces trihalomethanes, which appear to at least be associated with slightly increased risk of bladder and rectal cancer. It may also help to cause arteriosclerosis.
I'm now concerned. Although cancer doesn't run in my family at ALL, strokes and heart disease so badly do. I've even had a number of small strokes.
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Upon looking further, while the cancer links are clear, the heart disease and stroke connection does not appear to have any actual support beyond one book 50 years ago. It appears to be a correlation only.
But it still predisposes people to bladder and rectal cancer. People with family histories of those cancers should stop drinking it, even on this diet.
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Most of us here are just as concerned with embracing what is optimal, as in avoiding what is potentially harmful. There are plenty of anecdotal cases of people living in caner belt communities where the water is heavily chlorinated, as well as contaminated with a myriad of other kinds of industrial and agricultural waste....... while at the same time there is a much lower incidence of such conditions in places such as the Netherlands where the water is free of such contamination.
In my life I am exposed to 100 fold more harmful substances than in most tap water on a regular basis, but I also realize that being made up of mostly water and drinking nearly a gallon a day, that its important that it is pure.
One must also consider that much of the produce and even the meat we consume whither it be from a family farm or a factory farm is often produced with fluoridated, chlorinated and who knows what else in the water. These things build up in the soil as well as the bodies of the animals and plants we consume. At the same time it is already proven that trace elements and vital minerals are being depleted, so there is reason to believe that there is a great ecological imbalance upon many fronts, though its been so gradual and is confounded by so many other factors....
I liken what is occurring in many parts of the world with subtle contamination.... to the tadpole raised in chlorinated, roundup runoff, fluoride laced, BPA fish bowl water, that has grown into the retarded frog which calmly allows itself to be boiled alive.
Industry science is not engaged in determining what is optimal for the well being of the individual human so these imbalances go largely undocumented.... the writing is on the wall when it comes to the harm being done... and anyone with an IQ higher than a fluoridated frog should know that drinking chlorine laced water is not an optimal health practice.
Thinking about frogs soaking in water reminds me that we also bath in the stuff...... chlorine and fluoride does indeed soak in through the skin... I use shower filters, and am in the process of setting up an oak barrel rain water collection tank to do some cold soaking in....I wire up swimming pools for a living and the companies around here have been doing a mass exodus from using traditional chlorine treatments....and are switching to salt systems, which generate pure chlorine from salt, in much lower amounts than in traditional chlorine treatments, while burning out many of the chemical impurities which are actually more harmful than the chlorine. I can vouch that the water in salt treated pools has no chlorine smell nor does it bleach the skin or burn the eyes. There are even more expensive colloidal copper generators for pools, but because of the cost we don't install them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_water_chlorination
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Swimming in chlorine is a different issue. It is unquestionably bad for the lungs.
On another note, I'm surprised that there even needs to be a colloidal copper generator. Wouldn't the copper saturate after a while? It's not like it evaporates. Maybe it deposits on surfaces and stays there.
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I assume that in colloidal systems the water still must run through a main filtration system which screens out some of the colloidal elements, and also when the colloids combine with a microbe they become bound up and thus need to be regularly replaced.
The technology for producing clean water on a large scale without chemical disinfectants has been around for quite some time, only there is a huge resistance against implementing and funding the necessary changes. Basically most People are cheap and would rather pay 30 dollars a month for chlorinated water than to pay 60 dollars a month for water treated with colloidal elements, ozone and ionization.
Where water is run by the unholy alliance of government and big business there is little incentive to put up the initial cost to change these outdated systems...with this world wide depression thing and endless war against everything going on......
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"Endless war against everything". I like it.
As far as people being too damn cheap to even protect their health, I hear you.
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What's paleo about colloidal systems? Metals that kill bacteria are causing metal poisoning. Why assume that you need to kill the bacteria in the first place? Just replace the water frequently to get rid of the toxins people discharge through their skin when they go in the pool. And then using any kind of untreated, uncontaminated water such as underground well water, rain water (though not in cities where it picks up all the toxins in the air), or spring water if you happen to live next to one. Unless you're swimming in the ocean, you should ideally be able to safely drink from the same water you bathe in.
If something is toxic to your intestines, don't feed it to your skin. And vice-versa.
If you can only access chlorinated tap water, what you can do is add clay or epsom salts to bind with the toxic chemicals.
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There is nothing paleo about any municipal water treatment system, I am simply making the point that if you are going to live in a city and use tap water then there are much better ways of keeping it safe than using chemical disinfectants
Colloidal copper and silver systems are proven to be non toxic to multicelluar organisms in the low concentrations used in water purification systems, while at the same time very effective against single cell organisms which swamp up municipal water lines. Colloidal elements are at such microscopic concentrations and the particle sizes are so small that they do not cause the kind of metal poisoning you are imagining..... especially when compared to sodium aluminum fluoride, and the multitude of chlorine compounds which are now in much of the modern worlds tap.
Without any kind of treatment only the purest water would not need any treatment to keep algae and other scum from building up in the pipes, but in most areas water needs to be recycled and cleaned, after being inundated with all sorts of waste, in cesspool sewage plants.
None of this indoor plumbing stuff is paleo or ideal but it is reality for the majority of people here, so for those who do use tap water it is wise to be educated about the alternatives.
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Colloidal copper and silver systems are proven to be non toxic to multicelluar organisms in the low concentrations used in water purification systems, while at the same time very effective against single cell organisms which swamp up municipal water lines.
Proven by who? The same people who say that raw meat will kill you? This came out today: http://www.who.int/foodsafety/publications/foodborne_disease/fergreport/en/ (http://www.who.int/foodsafety/publications/foodborne_disease/fergreport/en/) - they say 420,000 people die every year due to foodborne illnesses, and they blame most of them on bacteria and parasites from raw meat, eggs and the like.
We depend on microorganisms to survive. If this metal is killing them then, at the very least it's acting like an antibiotic.
To this day doctors are still saying that mercury in amalgams and in vaccines is safe, and in the past they've said the same about high dose mercury injections, cooking in lead pots, you name it.
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My mind is open to any and all evidence...... from my research there isn't any known issue with using colloidal silver or copper as an anti microbial agent, and if you combine it with ozone, ionization and high tech filtration the amount of colloids that would need be be used would be absolutely minimal.
If you can come across any evidence to the contrary please post it here....
In extreme cases of overuse of colloidal silver the only side effect was turning a little blue, but you would have to take hundreds of thousands of times the levels that would be used in these advanced water treatment systems. Try taking a hundred thousand times the amount of chlorine in your typically treated tap water and Id bet you would be much worse off than the Blue man.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq8C0GknwAM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq8C0GknwAM)
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Apparently, the combination of a little copper and chlorine in the water causes blond hair to turn green.... Not sure if this is a toxic effect per se.
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3339996/Top-scientist-warns-health-timebomb-caused-prescription-drugs-washed-drains.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3339996/Top-scientist-warns-health-timebomb-caused-prescription-drugs-washed-drains.html)
We often go on about what foods to eat on this diet, but what we drink is often not mentioned. This is a mistake. For example, tapwater in London quickly tasted so disgusting once I went rawpalaeo that I was forced to drink water from high-alkaline/high-PH-value mineral water from then on or end up losing my appetite for raw animal foods as well. London tapwater is notorious for having passed through an average of 8 human bladders prior to reaching you. Here in Vienna, we get PH 7.8 tapwater which comes from Alpine streams so tastes fine, and I drink it all the time as Austrian mineral-water in bottles is too neutral in taste and PH value.
Good reminder.
Get the best water you can.
At every chance I get when I drive up the mountains I collect natural mountain spring drinking water.
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If my tap water (west coast of Florida) doesn't affect the bacteria and yeast in fermented food and drink, is it safe to assume the water can't be that bad?
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Depends where you live. I googled Vienna's water quality quite easily. Hmm, if by west coast of Florida, you mean Pensacola, you would best consider avoiding all tapwater!
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/41354370/ns/business-going_green/t/us-cities-worst-drinking-water/#.VxdkdVT3O9U (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/41354370/ns/business-going_green/t/us-cities-worst-drinking-water/#.VxdkdVT3O9U)
http://srwqis.tamu.edu/florida/program-information/florida-target-themes/drinking-water-and-human-health/ (http://srwqis.tamu.edu/florida/program-information/florida-target-themes/drinking-water-and-human-health/)
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I'm from Pasco County, Florida.
Sometimes I wonder if water rich foods are better sources of hydration than "pure" water. Melon fruits (full of electrolytes) are so watery they feel more like beverages than meals to me.