Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kokki on September 17, 2009, 10:04:28 pm
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Hmm.. I can`t be completely sure, is my honey totally raw. There might be possibility that it`s lightly warmed (it comes from Andorra, and warming is necessary only when the weather is colder [no warming over 37]).
Here`s lot of organic honey producers in Finland, but everybody use sugar for winter feeding, of course. That`s the reason why I`m buying honey from elsewhere.
Aajonus writes that it`s important to eat untouched stuff.
(Many beekeepers use "solvering iron" to skim wax off - and they`re hot. It`s safier to use a fork).
What would you say, is it harmful to eat lightly warmed honey?
Ps. You can recommend good honey producers if you want
Psps. This problem really irritates me. I can choose between toxic and warmed :'(
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Well, I buy all my honey from locals who guarantee unheated, unprocessed, unfiltered, RAW honey.
If you don;t have a good local source, you might try a local Health Food Store and see if they carry raw honey.
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What would you say, is it harmful to eat lightly warmed honey?
From my perspective it is harmful to eat ANY honey, warmed or not. Honey is about 50% fructose and 35% glucose and 15% water.
To your body it is biochemically the same as refined white sugar and high fructose corn syrup. It may be paleolithic as bees were certainly around at the time, but that doesn't make it good food for humans. There is little difference between consuming honey and consuming soft drinks and candy bars as it will have exactly the same effect on your body. The fructose in honey will do a number on your liver just as surely as the fructose in a soft drink, and the glucose will cause the same insulin response as a candy bar.
I do believe that paleo humans probably ate honey at every opportunity but those opportunities would have been few and far between. Imagine yourself naked, armed only with rocks and sticks, and then tell me how you would get at honey concealed in a hollow tree guarded by thousands of angry bees.
Honey as a treat once every few years - maybe.
Honey as a regular part of a healthy diet - I don't think so, at least not for me.
Lex
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I think I agree on the effects of honey, but I don't agree that honey was inaccessible. I've seen a documentary with stone age hunter
ruthlessley exploiting wild hives. The way I see it not everything Paleo people did was optimum for us..they took any opportunities to eat calories that came along, but yeh it would be self limiting how much honey there was in a year.
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That's a sobering thought Lex!
Although I avoid honey mostly now (since eating vast amounts in my primal diet days!) I do still occasionally partake if I make a special homemade raw treat for my partner and myself - such as raw ice-cream, coconut macaroons etc. This is very rare but maybe I need to reconsider such indulgences!!
My partner is currently breastfeeding our 3 month old son and is eating as good a diet as I could hope for bearing in mind she's not into raw or paleo diets. She is eating small amounts of honey (a couple of teaspoons) with yoghurt on a daily basis. Do you think the fructose is passed into the breast milk with deleterious effect?
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She is eating small amounts of honey (a couple of teaspoons) with yoghurt on a daily basis. Do you think the fructose is passed into the breast milk with deleterious effect?
I haven't a clue Phil, but my guess would be that there would be no difference in breast milk composition whether eating honey or any other source of glucose and fructose such as fruit and/or starchy carbs. Just because honey is manufactured in bee hives rather than a modern factory doesn't mean that it would be processed by the body any differently than the same elements from any other source.
I think I agree on the effects of honey, but I don't agree that honey was inaccessible. I've seen a documentary with stone age hunter ruthlessley exploiting wild hives.
I never said honey was inaccessible, only that it would not be a regular part of a human diet. As for the 'stone age' documentary, I am unaware of any real documentation of the stone age other than a few cave paintings. To my knowledge none of these depict humans raiding bee hives. Movies purporting to be a documentation of the stone age are highly suspect as I don't belive they had any movie cameras during that time.
Lex
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My phone lost part of my email Lex...I meant to say there was a tribe with stone age technology who had techniques for getting lots of honey..the 'akiye' in southern africa iirr.
Probably they rely on honey because they can't get enough game...but still they're not scared of a few bees and can get it daily not yearly.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqlv41S8ijA
Ah yes, Bruce Parry. Try 52 secs in.
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I only eat honey that is still in the honeycomb. It's never been heated. Any other honey has the chance of being heated.
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No problem with honey warming in my locale. Philippines is tropical weather all times of the year.
It's not my staple food, but it is nice to have some around the house. Honey lemon juice on a warm day... hmmmm....
Try calling my local honey maker: +63-49-567-1457 or +63-917-9553843
or email: thehoneyhouse@yahoo.com
http://www.myhealthblog.org/2009/04/28/honey-house-in-alaminos-a-source-of-pure-raw-honey/
Philippine time is +8
Maybe they deliver abroad.
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Josh,
Your video post can't be viewed in the US due to copyright restrictions. That said, if the video is modern and the akiye are around today farming bees, I wouldn't call that stone age. It also doesn't make honey a good food for humans. There are many different cultures that eat many different foods - most of which we wouldn't find appropriate for a paleo lifestyle. The fact that people eat these foods because their natural food has been depleted doesn't make what they eat good food for humans.
You are free to rationalize your food choices just as I rationalize mine, however, if I was going to eat sugar, I'd choose a Snickers bar. It tastes better than honey and probably has far less fructose causing less stress on the liver. I expect the insulin response is a wash.
If you wish to pretend that honey, raw, in the comb, or otherwise is a proper food for humans just because it is 'refined' by bees rather than in a modern factory you are fooling only yourself. And truth be told, you are not fooling your pancreas or liver one bit.
Lex
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I find raw honeycomb and honey one of the best sources of carbs. I do very well when I eat honey with mutton suet - this combination is very thoothsome. The digestion is perfect. I think Aajonus is right about this - more honey is ok, but more fruits is not. When I eat quite a lot of fruits I do quite bad re digestion. When I eat more honey (e.g. 200 g) I do very well and my digestion is still ok.
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I don't trust raw honey as it's usually heated(UK legislation allows honey to be labelled raw even if it's heated to 80 degrees Celsius for a short while). I buy raw honeycomb instead.
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From my perspective it is harmful to eat ANY honey, warmed or not. Honey is about 50% fructose and 35% glucose and 15% water.
To your body it is biochemically the same as refined white sugar and high fructose corn syrup. It may be paleolithic as bees were certainly around at the time, but that doesn't make it good food for humans. There is little difference between consuming honey and consuming soft drinks and candy bars as it will have exactly the same effect on your body. The fructose in honey will do a number on your liver just as surely as the fructose in a soft drink, and the glucose will cause the same insulin response as a candy bar.
Lex,
I have a comment and a question.
1) While I don;t necessarily disagree with the gist of what you say, I think you clearly over-state your case when you liken honey with a soda or candy bars. The former, when procured from a natural source & un-heated/un-filtered, is as far removed from the processed & chemically-enhanced poison in soda & candy bars as high-quality raw (or cooked!) organic meats are from a Big Mac.
2) That said, I am extremely interested in what it is you have found that simple sugars do that is so damaging to the liver. I've read a bit about it, but every study is within the past 5 years or so and all are small samples. Further, none control properly for other lifestyle issues (the biggest one I saw had them eating 5000 calories of cooked food with tons of fried fats).
Can you expound?
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Raw honey is packed with vitamins, minerals and digestive enzymes. There are countless testimonials about its healing properties used both internally and externally. Spreading fear about its danger to organs is no different than someone coming on here saying raw meat will kill you because of bacteria and parasites. It’s just an outlandish claim with no scientific evidence to back it up. That said I don’t think anyone should eat large amounts of raw honey daily. But taken in conjunction with raw fats occasionally I can only see it as health giving.
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Raw honey is packed with vitamins, minerals and digestive enzymes.
Actually, there are quite few vitamins and minerals in honey, but indeed a lot of enzymes and other healthy ingredients.
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Hi Kokki! ;D
I lived in Finnland most of my life.. ;)
Where I order my Honey; www.orkos.com
Ok, I dont eat much of it, but when.. its the best!
Also when I am in Finnland, occasionally. They deliver all over EU. And their Honey are like wild Honey...mmm. No sugar feed. And they have many different kind of it. Simply the best! I also order my Fruits and nuts from there. Just try! :P
Inger,
the Tarjoilija
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Honey from your region is best but I but from Pacifica honey in Calfornia http://honeypacifica.com/ they are very reasonable for small orders to just call them and they can adjust shipping costs. they also have great flavors.I love the mixed wild flower cold pressed honeyThe peppertree honey is nice too. I take mineral water and stir in a glob of honey and it is like an italian soda... I love it
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1) While I don;t necessarily disagree with the gist of what you say, I think you clearly over-state your case when you liken honey with a soda or candy bars. The former, when procured from a natural source & un-heated/un-filtered, is as far removed from the processed & chemically-enhanced poison in soda & candy bars as high-quality raw (or cooked!) organic meats are from a Big Mac.
2) That said, I am extremely interested in what it is you have found that simple sugars do that is so damaging to the liver. I've read a bit about it, but every study is within the past 5 years or so and all are small samples. Further, none control properly for other lifestyle issues (the biggest one I saw had them eating 5000 calories of cooked food with tons of fried fats).
You are free to believe what you wish and if you choose to disregard more current studies because they are small (or whatever reason) that is your choice as well. What seems to be coming to the forefront is that NAFLD (fatty liver disease) is running rampant and is linked to consumption of fructose which bypasses the normal metabolic pathways for simple carbohydrates and is metabolized directly by the liver.
The metabolic effects of the sugars are the same regardless of the source (honey or soda/candy bar). The added chemicals are just an additional problem. Same goes for the Big Mac. It's not the cooked meat in the Big Mac that sets it appart from plain cooked meat, it's the "secret sauce"!
Lex
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What seems to be coming to the forefront is that NAFLD (fatty liver disease) is running rampant and is linked to consumption of fructose which bypasses the normal metabolic pathways for simple carbohydrates and is metabolized directly by the liver.
It is correlated, but it hasn't been proven that NAFLD is caused by consumption of fructose, and for sure not by moderate consumption of raw unheated honey
that's basic methological principle, which is very often not obeyed
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It is correlated, but it hasn't been proven that NAFLD is caused by consumption of fructose, and for sure not by moderate consumption of raw unheated honey that's basic methodological principle, which is very often not obeyed
Hmmmm, I guess you could say that most of the causative effects of various dietary elements are correlated and not proven. So, enjoy your honey. I will stick with raw meat and fat which I'm sure is correlated with something. What I find amusing is the agonizing and hand wringing over eating honey (99.9% calories from pure sugar) heated or unheated. From a heath stand point there is zero measurable difference - both are a very poor food for humans.
Isn't it wonderful being rational animals. We all get to rationalize and interpret the facts to support whatever we wish to believe. Unfortunately our bodies don't have the luxury of adopting our chosen belief system and must conform to rather strict biochemical and physical laws. If you are still addicted to carbs and just have to have them, by all means eat as much honey as you wish. You'll find much support in the popular press telling you how good honey is for you (all those wonderful minerals and enzymes) and this will make your rationalization appear to be based on fact. It's a win-win!
Lex
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Josh,
Your video post can't be viewed in the US due to copyright restrictions. That said, if the video is modern and the akiye are around today farming bees, I wouldn't call that stone age. It also doesn't make honey a good food for humans. There are many different cultures that eat many different foods - most of which we wouldn't find appropriate for a paleo lifestyle. The fact that people eat these foods because their natural food has been depleted doesn't make what they eat good food for humans.
You are free to rationalize your food choices just as I rationalize mine, however, if I was going to eat sugar, I'd choose a Snickers bar. It tastes better than honey and probably has far less fructose causing less stress on the liver. I expect the insulin response is a wash.
If you wish to pretend that honey, raw, in the comb, or otherwise is a proper food for humans just because it is 'refined' by bees rather than in a modern factory you are fooling only yourself. And truth be told, you are not fooling your pancreas or liver one bit.
Lex
I did say that Lex...they probably eat so much of it because they can't find game - they're forced to look for alternative food.
I was just responding to what you said about " Imagine yourself naked, armed only with rocks and sticks, and then tell me how you would get at honey concealed in a hollow tree guarded by thousands of angry bees." - that's pretty much their reality, and they raid loads of wild hives without too much trouble.
I'm not interested in eating honey as to the best of my knowledge you're right about it's harmful effects. I was just trying to make the point that although honey is not a good food for humans paleo people could have eaten it easily if they wanted, and possibly would have sought it out to some extent. It's hard to judge what their tastes would have been, but if it tasted sweet and nice then would they not have wanted to repeat the experience?
But whether they did or not doesn't necessarily make it good...say if paleo people drilled holes in their heads to let the sky spirits in doesn't mean it's a good idea :)
ok trepanation is apparently neolithic...but you get what I mean!
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also it's important to realize that honey made in traditional bee boxes does not contain larvae. the box keeps the queen separated from the honeycomb so she can't lay eggs in it. so, a REAL raw wild honey would contain lots of protein and fat from the larvae. that would make it a much more appealing food for paleo men.
anyways, i personally eat a little honey every once in a while as almost my only carb source (along with a piece of fruit once a week or two). i can tell it isn't as optimal as fat and meat but i feel like i need at least some carbs or else i feel like it's hard to keep from losing weight (which isn't what i want).
has anyone every had honeycomb with larvae in it? i hear you can remove the separator if you want larvae in the honey. it sounds good to me
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Hmmmm, I guess you could say that most of the causative effects of various dietary elements are correlated and not proven.
That's very true, Lex :)
So, enjoy your honey. I will stick with raw meat and fat which I'm sure is correlated with something. What I find amusing is the agonizing and hand wringing over eating honey (99.9% calories from pure sugar) heated or unheated. From a heath stand point there is zero measurable difference - both are a very poor food for humans.
If you find honey not healthy for yourself - do not eat it.
But why should I ged rid of sth, which I find very toothsome and good for myself?
That's your personal opinion that it's "very poor food for humans". There isn't any proof, Lex? Moderate amounts of carbs (e.g. 50-100 g) aren't definitely proven by anybody to be bad for human, or at least for 99,99% of people. But it is for some other discussion re zero-carb versus low-carb ;)
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I find the notion that there's no real difference between raw and heated honey as utterly ridiculous.I mean, there's a loss of enzymes, a loss of nutrients, heat-created toxins would appear etc. And, so far, the case re fructose in fruit appears to be on pretty shaky ground, it's only the evidence re processed fructose(as in diet sodas) that is more credible.
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I find the notion that there's no real difference between raw and heated honey as utterly ridiculous.
Agreed.
Further, I suspect that NONE of the studies on the effects of fructose on the liver have been done with anything but cooked foods & refined sugars. I'd be interested in seeing just ONE on raw honey.
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I agree with Lex, but one can easily get honey out of a tree by using smoke. I use to keep bees. Using smoke takes their attention completely away from you, except for maybe a couple of the smarter ones, ouch.
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This whole argument reminds me of me about 20 years ago when a friend suggested that I stop drinking Tang and drink a competitor's product instead. He told me it was far superior to Tang because it had tons of vitamins and minerals added. I went into scientific mode and started my due diligence. I wrote to both companies (Al Gore hadn't invented the Internet yet) and asked for a complete nutritional breakdown of their respective products.
I poured over the literature for hours, comparing and researching the differences - more calcium here, less magnesium there, etc. After about a week of intense work (of which up to that point I was very proud), I suddenly realized I was dedicating immense amounts of time and energy trying to determine the better of two products, neither of which I should be consuming at all!
Such, I believe, is the case with the heated vs unheated honey debate.....
Lex
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Heated vs. unheated honey arguments do seem a bit inconsequential to me too, but Yon made a more important point: most people leave out the fat-and-protein-rich grubcomb when they talk about honey. I don't regularly eat honey and don't advocate it, so I'm not trying to justify the eating of honey and I hope no one gets that misimpression. Some of the following is speculation on my part, but I find speculation to be fun and it sometimes leads me to interesting discoveries, so I’ll have at it and share some of the information I have accumulated on bee hive foods.
The story of honey and the other foods offered by bee hives (including bee eggs, larvae, and pupae, which together make up the brood) is intriguing, so it’s something I have looked into before. The honey/hive story does not seem to be clear-cut, either pro or con, to me. It is one of the more complex and intriguing stories of the foods available in the Stone Age. The seasonality and relative value vs. alternatives (such as megafauna) of bee hive foods appears to be their main limiting factors, rather than difficulty in obtaining them.
Several nonhuman primates have been observed obtaining and eating honeycomb and grubcomb (the comb which contains the bee eggs, larvae and pupae—with the larvae or grubs apparently being the most desired by both humans and nonhuman animals, because of their high fat content):
From The world history of beekeeping and honey hunting, By Eva Crane:
"Some primates [eat] brood and honey from bees’ nests. Rhesus monkeys (Macaca mulatta) in Asia were seen taking brood from an Apis florae nest. In the Ganges delta ‘monkeys are said to smear the body with a thick layer of silt before approaching the [A. dorsata] combs’ (Chakrabarti & Chaudhuri, 1972). In southern Asia various langurs (Presbytis) behaved similarly. ….
According to the Belanda-Biri people in southern Sudan, chimpanzees 'are great honey thieves' (Brown, 1984). .... The male [chimp] pulled out brood and honey combs with his hands, took a bite--and got a few stings--then threw the rest down to where the others were waiting. They in turn grabbed the combs and enjoyed them. They were stung, and jumped up and down, screaming, and tried to swat the bees stinging their faces. But all seemed to be enjoying the affair thoroughly, except the babies who snuggled their faces into their mothers' chests.
Van Lawick-Goodall (1971), who made extensive studies of chimpanzees in the Gombe Stream National Park in Tanzania, watched an adult male and his mother co-operating to get honey. .... The male pushed a short length of thick stick backwards and forwards in the opening of an underground nest, using it as a lever to enlarge the hole. He waited while his mother reached down with her hand and brought out a honey comb; then he took out some crushed comb and ate it."
p. 36 “In parts of Australia, Aborigines found stingless bees … and used their honey and wax…. “
There is a possible rock painting of honey hunting in the caves of Altamira, but it is unclear whether it is or not. Clearer representations of honey hunting are found in Mesolithic rock paintings in Valencia, Spain. One article dates them to 7000 BC (“Bees,” http://www.the-piedpiper.co.uk/th16.htm), though it provides no references.
The Honeymen Tribe
http://travel.discovery.com/tvlistings/episode.jsp?episode=0&cpi=23114&gid=5726&channel=TRV
Honey is the main livelihood of the Shenko people living on the edge of a highland forest in Western Ethiopia. A villager, Miango, owns over 300 hives. To make and fix his hives, he climbs high in the trees, where one slip could mean certain death.
also it's important to realize that honey made in traditional bee boxes does not contain larvae. the box keeps the queen separated from the honeycomb so she can't lay eggs in it. so, a REAL raw wild honey would contain lots of protein and fat from the larvae. that would make it a much more appealing food for paleo men.
Correct. Look at the lengths these people go to get some honeycomb: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRngOJc62oY. No, they are not Stone Agers, of course, but note that they appear to have plenty of sheep that might provide meat (though they likely use them for wool also or even mainly). Note also in that video that there are also some bee larvae or “grubs” in some of the retrieved combs (called grubcomb). Ironically, honey is not the favorite treat of honey bears. Instead, it’s bee larvae, which are rich in fat (http://genomebiology.com/2008/9/10/R156). No doubt Paleolithic peoples ate rather than picked out the larvae, as honey hunters do today (http://www2.bc.edu/~morellig/IturiForestPeoplesFund/HTML/honey.htm), so even in honey hunting Stone Agers obtained some fat and protein.
Traditional peoples seem to prefer honeycomb to grubcomb, but eat both. When honeycomb and grubcomb are in season, traditional peoples gorge on them: "After twenty minutes of gorging only about one kilogram of honey is left to take back to camp with the grub comb. This is one of the first trees of the season, and it is not uncommon for the men to eat nearly all the honey, leaving little for the women and children. In good years there is always plenty for everyone and even a large surplus for exchange with the villagers."
So the seasonal eating of honeycomb and grubcomb containing bee grubs as well as honey does not justify eating honey alone today, but it does appear likely that honey and grubcomb were eaten at times by Stone Age peoples, given that hunter-gatherers and other primates have been observed eating it and rock paintings of 5-7,000 years ago in pre-agrarian areas suggest it was eaten prior to agriculture. My guess is that where big game was plentiful, men would value hunting megafauna over hunting hives, and the latter might have been relegated to women and children or even ignored completely in some areas. If meat had been scarce during the last half million to 30,000 years and the only alternative foods had been fruits and vegetables, I’ll bet Stone Age people would have eaten more honeycomb and grubcomb than they probably did. However, again, this is speculation on my part.
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This whole argument reminds me of me about 20 years ago when a friend suggested that I stop drinking Tang and drink a competitor's product instead. He told me it was far superior to Tang because it had tons of vitamins and minerals added. I went into scientific mode and started my due diligence. I wrote to both companies (Al Gore hadn't invented the Internet yet) and asked for a complete nutritional breakdown of their respective products.
I poured over the literature for hours, comparing and researching the differences - more calcium here, less magnesium there, etc. After about a week of intense work (of which up to that point I was very proud), I suddenly realized I was dedicating immense amounts of time and energy trying to determine the better of two products, neither of which I should be consuming at all!
Such, I believe, is the case with the heated vs unheated honey debate.....
Lex
It's an invalid comparison. Raw honey is not simply cooked honey with some extra artificial vitamins and minerals added. There's a whole range of factors involved. Simply put, cooking creates a whole host of (negative) changes which mean that the raw and the cooked version of a particular food are significantly different from each other, in multiple ways.
Re smoking aspect mentioned elsewhere:- Yes, I should have mentioned that, previously. Though, given primate consumption of honey, there's no real reason to doubt that honey was consumed even in pre-advent of fire days.
*I should also point out that raw honeycomb doesn't seem to cause as much of a shock to the system(re blood-glucose levels etc.) as liquid honey. Admittedly, though, I very strongly suspect that ALL the (so-called) raw liquid honey I've eaten in the past wasn't really raw at all, given outrageous Uk (mis)labelling laws.
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This thread seems to have got side-tracked. Back to the original question re warmed honey:-
1) I would strongly suggest that you check the Finnish honey regulations to see if they allow honey to be labelled raw, even if it's heated above 40 degrees Celsius.Sadly, here in the UK, one can heat honey to 80 degrees Celsius for a short while and still be able to dishonestly call it raw, thus destroying the enzymes. I've heard 1 bee-producer claim that it's very difficult to get raw liquid honey into jars without some heating - that is, if no heat is used, the producer has to do the whole process manually, instead of via mass-production, which adds to the cost.
2) To be reasonably sure of the raw nature of the honey, buy it in honeycomb form. Honeycomb is rarely heated(sometimes heated in the US, I gather for various stupid non-reasons), but it's not necessary as raw honeycomb lasts forever. You should still check with the producer via e-mail, though.
3) On a side-note, I've noticed no particular extra benefits from eating raw honeycomb(though raw heather honeycomb helped me to ease into the idea of eating raw meats as well, originally), but did notice a particularly beneficial effect from consuming raw(well-freeze-dried) royal jelly. To get high-quality royal jelly in raw or freeze-dried form minus all preservatives/chemicals , you'll need to spend a lot of money, though. There's also bee propolis, of course and (sun-dried) bee pollen.
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It's an invalid comparison. Raw honey is not simply cooked honey with some extra artificial vitamins and minerals added. There's a whole range of factors involved. Simply put, cooking creates a whole host of (negative) changes which mean that the raw and the cooked version of a particular food are significantly different from each other, in multiple ways.
Of course it is a valid comparison. The point of the story was that I finally realized that I was asking the wrong question; whether one product was better than a similar product. When I finally stopped focusing on the minutiae of the differences and focused on the big picture, it became clear that no product of this type should be included in a healthy diet and the differences between them is irrelevant.
All the arguments in favor of raw honey are focusing on the differences between raw and heated rather than the big picture of whether we should be eating honey at all. Sugar is sugar, and to pretend that the sugar in honey is somehow processed differently by our bodies than chemically identical sugars from other sources (fruit, soda, refined sugar, etc), and is therefore healthy, only makes us look silly and damages our cause. It's tantamount to ordering a cup of Hemlock and demanding that it be organic and raw....
Lex
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All the arguments in favor of raw honey are focusing on the differences between raw and heated rather than the big picture of whether we should be eating honey at all. Sugar is sugar, and to pretend that the sugar in honey is somehow processed differently by our bodies than chemically identical sugars from other sources (fruit, soda, refined sugar, etc), and is therefore healthy, only makes us look silly and damages our cause. It's tantamount to ordering a cup of Hemlock and demanding that it be organic and raw....
Lex
I'm afraid the argument that "sugar is sugar" is similiarly flawed. I mean, raw honey is processed in a different way by the body than extremely refined fructose as found in diet-sodas, as it's packed with enzymes etc. And this same very flawed argument re identical chemical structure has been used to justify the consumption of highly processed vitamins and minerals. Now a few dodgy nutritionists would have us believe that such artificial vitamins and minerals are no different from the vitamins or minerals in natural foods. but the vast majority of us RVAFers(and in recent years, many nutritionists) have found, again and again, that taking in such artificial supplements was useless and that significant dietary deficiencies required intake of real foods instead of such artifical vitamins etc.(ie grassfed meat instead of Omega-3-enriched eggs etc.) Same goes for the issue of raw vs cooked:- many RVAFers have found that they corrected major issues like fertility simply by switching from a cooked to a raw diet, and this clearly indicates that cooked foods are far less bioavailable than raw foods. In short, a common chemical signature in the same 2 foods means nothing when one of those foods is highly processed.*Or are you claiming that if you were to eat all the nutrients(amino-acids etc.) in meats only in supplement form that you'd still be healthy?*
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*I should also point out that raw honeycomb doesn't seem to cause as much of a shock to the system(re blood-glucose levels etc.) as liquid honey. Admittedly, though, I very strongly suspect that ALL the (so-called) raw liquid honey I've eaten in the past wasn't really raw at all, given outrageous Uk (mis)labelling laws.
Yes, I suspect that one of the biggest problems with honey today is that most of the raw, organic honey products of today are quite different from the fresh, raw honeycomb and grubcomb that Stone Agers ate. Honeycomb is available in my area--can't remember if it's raw though--but no grubcomb (yet! ;) ). Until they include grubcomb in the studies, the scientists seem to be shooting in the dark when it comes to estimating the effects of Paleo bee-hive foods.
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Yes, I suspect that one of the biggest problems with honey today is that most of the raw, organic honey products of today are quite different from the fresh, raw honeycomb and grubcomb that Stone Agers ate. Honeycomb is available in my area--can't remember if it's raw though--but no grubcomb (yet! ;) ). Until they include grubcomb in the studies, the scientists seem to be shooting in the dark when it comes to estimating the effects of Paleo bee-hive foods.
Meat, which we eat is also different from meat that Stone Agers ate. So what?
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Meat, which we eat is also different from meat that Stone Agers ate. So what?
Yes, and so raw and low-cooked wild meats and grassfed meats that are more like Paleo meats are healthier than high-heat-cooked grainfed meats, as has been reported numerous times in this forum. Thanks for that additional good example of how the health value of foods has been reduced by modern techniques and food selection.
This doesn't guarantee that the combination of raw grubcomb with raw honeycomb would necessarily produce a healthy result, given the sugar content, seasonality of the food, and lower overall nutritional value as compared to animal flesh, but based on Boyd Eaton's theory of biological discordance, we could at least predict that it should be less unhealthy than processed honey devoid of comb and grubs.
Grubs are probably the healthiest food in bee hives. Time and again the foods which moderners despise the most tend to be some of the healthiest.
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Isnt sugar an immunosuppressant in any form?
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99,5% of beekeepers use heatable machines to get the wax off.
One old farmer told me that those gadgets destroy about 30% of the honey.
Therefore, all honeys are more or less harmful, whether organic or not, unless you know an amateur beekeeper, who does everything by hand.
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Well, honeycomb is fine unless it's bottled. At least raw honeycomb doesn't affect me in the way that liquid honey does.
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Yes, and it`s way tastier.
I`m going to start with five beehives this spring..
Willow, cloudberry, blueberry, cranberry, fireweed, lingonberry, raspberry, dandelion, clovers and currants are the principal nectar plants here.
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One place I get honey from walked through the honey packs it by scooping up handfulls cold walking through it.
99,5% of beekeepers use heatable machines to get the wax off.
Therefore, all honeys are more or less harmful, whether organic or not, unless you know an amateur beekeeper, who does everything by hand.
For local people with environmental allergies, people with multiple sclerosis, people with rheumatoid arthritis and people with various other similar to those stated autoimmune illnesses, lowering their antibodies is a complete blessing. I know, I had severe autoimmune disease and honey does help me, but only if it is unheated. Fruit I have had difficulty with if it is ripe and sweet.
Isnt sugar an immunosuppressant in any form?
I've used desert honey from camelthorn plant and i forget the other flower. The moisture content is so low in desert honey that you have to kind of chisel pieces off with a couple of tools. It's more difficult to get the serving size you want with desert honey. I know the desert it is from too, and it's crazy hot, at least for me. I've been to the less hot areas very briefly and could barely think from the heat.
I would say artificially (other than sun) ever barely warmed honey is harmful. I do best when I trust my senses. Warmed honey no matter the low degree smells awful to me.
There might be possibility that it`s lightly warmed (it comes from Andorra, and warming is necessary only when the weather is colder [no warming over 37]).
(Many beekeepers use "solvering iron" to skim wax off - and they`re hot. It`s safier to use a fork).
What would you say, is it harmful to eat lightly warmed honey?
This problem really irritates me. I can choose between toxic and warmed :'(
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Well, honeycomb is fine unless it's bottled. At least raw honeycomb doesn't affect me in the way that liquid honey does.
I would presume that the honey in truly raw honeycomb should be solid (crystallized) the way it is when sold separately as raw honey, unless it's really fresh and hasn't had time to solidify, correct? So far all of the honeycomb I've seen in the USA has been liquid and less tasty than the solid raw honey. This seems like an opportunity for someone to be able to make higher margins on their honey product by selling their honey product in a higher-quality form.
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I would presume that the honey in truly raw honeycomb should be solid (crystallized) the way it is when sold separately as raw honey, unless it's really fresh and hasn't had time to solidify, correct? So far all of the honeycomb I've seen in the USA has been liquid and less tasty than the solid raw honey. This seems like an opportunity for someone to be able to make higher margins on their honey product by selling their honey product in a higher-quality form.
I'm not sure what you mean, all honeycomb has a high solid wax component so is solid, not liquid. Sure there are minor differences between honeycombs, as som eare darker or lighter in colour depending on the plants the bees feed on, but there isn't much difference in solidity given the huge amount of solid wax in the honeycomb.
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I'm not sure what you mean, all honeycomb has a high solid wax component so is solid, not liquid.
The wax comb part of the honeycomb is solid, but I've never seen honeycomb with solid raw honey in it. It's always been liquid honey in the honeycomb I've seen here in the States. In other words, I'm talking about the honey within each comb cell and leaked all around the comb, not the wax comb walls. I've never seen dark comb either. You seem to have so much more variety and abundance of honeycomb, shellfish, raw meats, etc. there in London than here.
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Well, Edwin seems to be even better off than me as regards variety. I wonder, though, if you truly have so few sources. What I mean is that when I first started this diet I was under the steadfast impression that (cheap) sources of (quality) raw animal foods were very few and far between, but then I discovered the london farmers' markets, ethnic markets such as brixton market,organic grassfed farms which delivered raw marrow to my door, even a farm willing to sell raw brain to me(albeit from grainfed pork). Of course, I had to visit a different market each week and google online constantly while also enquiring re different sellers so it all took time but eventually I realised that London(and all other places I've travelled to on this diet) actually had a greater variety on inspection than I'd thought possible.
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Well, Edwin seems to be even better off than me as regards variety. I wonder, though, if you truly have so few sources. What I mean is that when I first started this diet I was under the steadfast impression that (cheap) sources of (quality) raw animal foods were very few and far between, but then I discovered the london farmers' markets, ethnic markets such as brixton market,organic grassfed farms which delivered raw marrow to my door, even a farm willing to sell raw brain to me(albeit from grainfed pork). Of course, I had to visit a different market each week and google online constantly while also enquiring re different sellers so it all took time but eventually I realised that London(and all other places I've travelled to on this diet) actually had a greater variety on inspection than I'd thought possible.
Kwl, what farm delivers marrow bone, i've been looking for a supplier for ages lol, could you pm or post here? thnx
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Well, Edwin seems to be even better off than me as regards variety. I wonder, though, if you truly have so few sources. ....
I've been to multiple farmer's markets in Vermont and also in Florida, Boston and upstate New York and I haven't seen anywhere near the stuff that you and Edwin talk about. You continually express surprise that we Americans report this about our farmer's markets, so I don't know what to tell you other than you seem to be luckier than you realize.
As for the raw honeycomb I'll try emailing my local apiary about it. They don't sell it, but they've been expanding their product line so I'll inquire if they have plans to sell it in the future.
This is what the honeycomb sold in this country that I have seen looks like, covered in liquid honey, with liquid honey oozing out of its wax combs:
(http://dwellingintheword.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/19-honey-comb-l.jpg)
It tends to be sold in plastic containers like this one:
(http://www.culinaryescapade.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/honeycomb.gif)
Is that honeycomb liquidy because it was heated or just because it hasn't had time to crystallize?
I think I found an image of the solid raw honeycomb you're talking about. Is this a good example?
(http://giftsfromcolorado.us/wp-content/uploads/comb-150x150.jpg)
I've never seen anything like that before. If it's a good image I'll send it to the apiary folks as an example of what I'm inquiring about. I doubt I would eat raw honeycomb often anyway, but it would be interesting to try it at least once.
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I've been to multiple farmer's markets in Vermont and also in Florida, Boston and upstate New York and I haven't seen anywhere near the stuff that you and Edwin talk about. You continually express surprise that we Americans report this about our farmer's markets, so I don't know what to tell you other than you seem to be luckier than you realize.
But even in the US you have different sources than the UK, sometimes better than ours sometimes worse. For example, I think it's probably much easier to hunt wild game in the US for obvious reasons but I believe there are more laws banning actual sale of wild game unlike in the UK. Also, you have large grassfed farms like Slanker's whereas most of the grassfed meat farms we have in the UK are strictly small-time, only slaughtering 1 or 2 animals every couple of weeks or so. And the wholefoods stores you lot describe offer a far greater variety of meats than any health-food store we have in the UK - even our 1 Wholefoods UK branch is far inferior to any comparable branch in the US.
The raw honeycomb you buy is unusually runny and maybe not even raw. The stuff I get is usually as solid as in the last photo, with occasional ones(usually the lighter ones) being slightly liquidy inside but not on the surface when you buy it in carton-form.
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Kwl, what farm delivers marrow bone, i've been looking for a supplier for ages lol, could you pm or post here? thnx
Sorry, but the suppliers I deal with, only slaughter the occasional cattle and my own supply of raw marrow is already too small to share. I'm afraid it'll require a lot of googling and phoning.The farms never advertise selling raw marrow on their shopping-cart forms but many small-time farms are willing to off-load their marrow - you may be their only customer.
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... And the wholefoods stores you lot describe offer a far greater variety of meats than any health-food store we have in the UK - even our 1 Wholefoods UK branch is far inferior to any comparable branch in the US.
Yes, I think that accounts for much of the confusion. Your farmer's markets seem to be much better than ours, but our healthfood markets seem to be much better than yours. I think this is because the food market supply chain is much more highly developed here than there and farmer's markets here are a remnant that is more of a touristy thing than a practical way to get food (with some exceptions). So what you find there does not necessarily apply to what we find here. In an international forum like this one, national and even regional differences need to be taken into account, which is something I forget to do at times myself.
The raw honeycomb you buy is unusually runny and maybe not even raw. The stuff I get is usually as solid as in the last photo, with occasional ones(usually the lighter ones) being slightly liquidy inside but not on the surface when you buy it in carton-form.
Thanks for that confirmation. I'll inquire with my local apiary about it. Truly raw honeycomb is apparently something that's easier to come by in the UK than on the east coast of the US (I've never even seen it in person yet at any farmer's market or healthfood store).
BTW, the state I live in--Vermont--is famously the whitest state in the Union, and I believe it has also been designated as the second most rural state, or thereabouts. So there aren't a lot of ethnic markets here and those we have tend not to be very impressive (no doubt with some exceptions I haven't come across yet). "Ethnic" here tends to mean Italian-American or French-Canadian-American. :D On top of that, most of the Italian-Americans and French-Canadian-Americans seem to have embraced Yankee American culture. For example, when I ask the in-laws of my two sisters, the clans of which both happen to have French-Canadian ancestry, about their French-Canadian culture or geneology, they know nothing and show no interest in it whatsoever.
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Oh, I'd always been of the impression that the northwestern States were the whitest in the US.
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I do get the impression that farmers' markets are still a top choice for RVAFers in most of the world given the previous mentions by GS of the excellent farmers' markets in the developing world. It's only in the US and maybe Canada where they are substandard, it seems(that is, European ones can be quite good though not as good as some UK ones). I have, though, added a caveat in 1 of my usual RVAF-advice articles that Americans are best placed to look elsewhere for their raw, high-quality foods - understandable as, it seems that even now most rawpalaeo membership is something like 70-80% from the US.
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Well, Edwin seems to be even better off than me as regards variety.
Let's go live with him.