Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Health => Topic started by: PaleoPhil on November 02, 2009, 12:40:35 am
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"In my opinion, vitamins A, D and K2 are among the very few micronutrients worth worrying about in your diet. Hunter-gatherers didn't have multivitamins, they had nutrient-dense animal foods." - Stephan Guyenet, Ph.D. in neurobiology
My dental health has improved greatly, but could stand some additional improvement, as I'm still getting some dental plaque and mild gum bleeding. According to several sources, vitamins A, D3 and K2 (they're not all literally vitamins, but I'm not concerned about semantics) are important to dental health (apparently especially in combination), and they're not easy to get even on an RPD diet, especially with sunlight rare where I live. The animal sources are supposed to be the best, according to my sources, and I'm a carnivore (though not obligate, obviously), so I'm only interested in animal sources at this time. I'm currently getting A and D3 from the cod liver oil supplements I'm using up as well as free range chicken liver, grassfed beef liver, egg yolks, some wild fish and occasional wild shellfish (wild clams are sometimes available--the mussels and oysters available locally are not wild, so I'm not big on those, and even the farmed oysters are rarely available). In the future I could use the fermented raw cod liver oil, but I want to explore all options. Butter oil provides K2, but I'd rather avoid dairy products if I can.
Anyone have any other sources to add to these below?
Good sources of vitamin D3:
sunlight
fish liver (and cod liver oil)
saltwater fish (especially halibut and cod) liver oil and fish fat (oil) in fatty fish like sardines, salmon, herring; and the fatty belly part of tuna (called 'toro,' 'chu-toro,' or 'o-toro' in Japanese)
Small amounts in: egg yolks, beef liver
Good sources of the MK4 version of Vitamin K2:
egg yolks, shellfish, goose leg, chicken liver, chicken meat, grassfed ground beef, grassfed beef liver
Good sources of Vitamin A:
egg yolks, liver
It's interesting how liver and egg yolks supply some of all three nutrients.
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Your teeth and gums will heal but you need to give it time. I wouldn't get to caught up in getting micro nutrients etc that was my mistake at the start. I got too obsessed with the detail and it did nothing for me. Just eat red meat and fat, maybe a bit of liver for energy boost.
For vitamin D even in cold climates like when I've been skiing you can still take your shirt off and lay in the sun if there's no wind.
After 3 years of RPD I can't get enough sun (addicted) and combined with being barefoot my body kind gets this nice buzz that sort of hums away like I'm getting tiny doses of drugs all day long. lol. Some days the sunlight is better than others, I'm not sure why it's different.
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I find that the Pascalite clay I eat is really good for my gum issues.
Also, I would suggest trying Now brand Vitamin D softgels. Take about 1-2 1000 IU gels for about 3 days. IF you don't suddenly feel a lot better, you probably weren't that deficient. I noticed tremendous improvements when I did that, in just 2-3 days.
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Your teeth and gums will heal but you need to give it time. I wouldn't get to caught up in getting micro nutrients etc that was my mistake at the start. I got too obsessed with the detail and it did nothing for me. Just eat red meat and fat, maybe a bit of liver for energy boost.
For vitamin D even in cold climates like when I've been skiing you can still take your shirt off and lay in the sun if there's no wind.
After 3 years of RPD I can't get enough sun (addicted) and combined with being barefoot my body kind gets this nice buzz that sort of hums away like I'm getting tiny doses of drugs all day long. lol. Some days the sunlight is better than others, I'm not sure why it's different.
So you don't buy what Lex, Guyenet, PaNu and Weston Price say about us needing much more D3 and K2 than the US RDA claims and it being important for heart health, dental health, etc.?
It's frequently below 45 degrees for much of the day here at this time of year and generally quite windy. I can tolerate the cold better than I used to, but not THAT well! ;D Plus I work indoors in an office with no windows during the week with no breaks more than 15 minutes or so during the day and it's dark when I leave work.
I'm not concerned about micronutrients for the sake of micronutrients, just the plaque and gum bleeding possibly related to low levels of D3 and/or K2. Figuring out what might be missing from my diet is part of what led me here and also enabled me to get off all my Px meds, so it worked very well for me overall. I didn't expect that raw meat and fat would resolve my potassium and magnesium deficiency symptoms, but I thought they might help with my zinc deficiency symptoms, which they also did. I hope you're right that the plaque and bleeding are also going to clear up soon.
The advice re: "micronutrients" is pretty confusing. Lex, PaNu and Tyler all seem to say not to use supplements or worry too much about micronutrients, but at the same time they do take and/or recommend:
Lex: sunlight or vitamin D3
PaNu: 5000 IU of vitamin D3 on days not getting sufficient sunlight (with a recommendation for Carlson brand soft gels)
Tyler: I think he has in the past used special foods like raw fermented cod liver oil, raw royal jelly, raw herbs and raw shellfish with some benefits
Like Tyler, I would prefer to use special foods (foodlements) rather than processed supplements myself. The raw fermented cod liver oil is very expensive, but if people get much better results from it than the heated stuff, I'll consider it.
Improvement in 2-3 days from vitamin D3 certainly sounds worth it. I actually have standard cod liver oil gels, but those aren't well regarded here, so I'm basically getting a survey of what people think the best foods/foodlements or supplements would be to get A, D3 and K2.
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So you don't buy what Lex, Guyenet, PaNu and Weston Price say about us needing much more D3 and K2 than the US RDA claims and it being important for heart health, dental health, etc.?
It's frequently below 45 degrees for much of the day here at this time of year and generally quite windy. I can tolerate the cold better than I used to, but not THAT well! ;D Plus I work indoors in an office with no windows during the week with no breaks more than 15 minutes or so during the day and it's dark when I leave work.
Well I'm not sure what the US RDA says but if you eating a raw red meat based diet you should be sitting pretty and let time heal. How old are you? if your over 40 it will take longer
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So raw red meat provides sufficient vitamin D? I'm 45.
There was also research that came out recently that showed that vitamin D fortifies the immune system and thus helps fend off flus and colds and the recommendations for level of vitamin D in the body have been going up as more and more studies show it to be critically important.
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Apparently Eel had tons of it.
In this video Jerry Brunetti talks about some concentrated vitamin D sources [2:20]:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6-WrdSr1R4&feature=related
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Apparently Eel had tons of it.
In this video Jerry Brunetti talks about some concentrated vitamin D sources [2:20]:
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Excellent vid, thanks. Once again vitamins A, D and K get mentioned, along with E. Granted, WAPF people are the source of a lot of this stuff, but PaNu and others talk about it too.
Minor correction: he said you can't get calcium IN the blood unless you have vitamin D. I believe he meant you can't absorb calcium FROM the blood unless you have vitamin D.
He highlighted minerals and fats, which I found my customers got far more benefit from than vitamins and antioxidants when I worked at a vitamin/health food store. Interestingly, the cruciferous veggies that he highlighted are one of the few plant food categories that I didn't notice any significant negative side effects from. He would be more convincing if he didn't have a somewhat flabby belly, though. He's a good speaker though.
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I take 6 of Dr Ron's Liver caps a day and it improved teeth and gums. Previously I just ate muscle meat.
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Thanks for posting the vid
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I take 6 of Dr Ron's Liver caps a day and it improved teeth and gums. Previously I just ate muscle meat.
That's not surprising given that raw, wild or pasture-fed liver provides some of all three of these important nutrients--A, D3 and K2. There are other interesting things I've read about liver, such as HG tribes that consider it a special, healthy or even sacred food and that the alpha male of a wolf pack gets to eat first and eats the liver. It's certainly very nutrient-rich. Of course, because it's so nutrient-rich, one presumably shouldn't overdo it either.
Is anyone getting 3000 or more IUs of vitamin D from cod liver oil daily? If so, are you concerned about too much fat soluble vitamin A at all, as this would raise vitamin A above the reported tolerable upper limit of 10,000 IUs. (http://www.vitaminmanual.com/new_page_3.htm)
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Is anyone getting 3000 or more IUs of vitamin D from cod liver oil daily?
Yes, we are getting about 3000 daily from cod liver oil.
1 tsp / day of Blue Ice fermented antioxident-free liquid = ~5ml = ~3000 IU vitamin D
"Symptoms of an overdose include nausea, loss of appetite, headache, peeling skin, hair loss and fatigue... Dry lips are usually the first sign of Vitamin A overdose, followed by dryness of the nasal mucosa and eyes."
We eat a diet high in vitamin E also, which helps metabolize vitamin A.
The few times I've had any of these symptoms, mostly feeling "dried out" with a mild headache, it felt like a deficiency in other fats, electrolytes, and water rather than an overdose of anything. When I ate more carefully and got more sleep I felt better right away. These were subtle symptoms. Perhaps, rather than viewing it as an "overdose" of vitamin A it was an imbalance? I think if you have a weak liver from prolonged illness or alcohol abuse you would have to be more careful - but these are the very nutrients you need to repair a liver as well. Vitamin A is exceptionally healing and was emphasized in Gerson's, Budwig's, and other "old fashioned" healing protocols (liver, carrots, flaxseed).
Sometimes I skip the CLO for a few days, "just because." GoodSamaritan was talking about the same sort of intuitive adjustments in his journal recently.
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I'm basically getting a survey of what people think the best foods/foodlements or supplements would be to get A, D3 and K2.
The only supplement I use is Blue Ice fermented cod liver oil. Along with occasional liver, I feel this gives me all of the Vit A, D2 and D3 I need. I expect we're getting sufficient K2 from all of the grass-fed meats. Of course, as much sun exposure as possible can only be a health-giving activity too.
Is anyone getting 3000 or more IUs of vitamin D from cod liver oil daily? If so, are you concerned about too much fat soluble vitamin A at all, as this would raise vitamin A above the reported tolerable upper limit of 10,000 IUs. (http://www.vitaminmanual.com/new_page_3.htm)
I wouldn't concern yourself with going over the reported upper limits particularly. From what I recall, these are based on unnatural supplement forms of A and D rather than whole food 'foodlements' as you like to call them. As livingthelife and goodsamaritan mentioned, I think your body will instinctively provide the messages if you're overdoing it. Likewise, I don't take them everyday - just when I 'feel' like it.
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Thanks for the input guys.
Isn't it interesting how raw liver and raw egg yolks contain some of all three of A, D3 and K2? It may help explain why liver was regarded as a sacred food by many ancient cultures (eggs too, but I think that was probably tied more to the birth/creation aspect) and why alpha male wolves that get to eat first reportedly eat the liver. I would think the plentiful essential nutrients would make it taste quite good after a long period between kills without meat. As we know from Instincto and science, the human brain makes foods that contain essential nutrients that are depleted in one's body taste particularly good. I presume the same would be the case for wolves.
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Pancreas would be the highest source of K2, according to this http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnutrition/vitamin-k2.html#foods
I like the idea of pancreas as a source for K2 better than liver. Unlike liver, it does not have huge amounts of copper, and has more C.
I think organs are way better than any bottled supplements.
Has anyone found a good source of grass fed pancreas?
What about fremontbarfcoop.com? Anyone tried them?
Thanks.
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C does not appear to be necessary in substantial amounts for eaters of fresh meat, although the reason hasn't been conclusively determined yet. Copper is an important nutrient given the significant amounts of zinc in raw red meats. Too much zinc can cause copper deficiency. I'm not advocating eating liver every day, just saying it seems to pop up quite frequently as containing some of the most important nutrients. I agree that organs and sunlight are better than supplements or even foodlements. Unfortunately, it's difficult for most people in modern society to get enough of both organs and sunlight, so sometimes foodlements from raw food sources might theoretically be helpful, which is why I'm giving some of them a try.
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Thanks for the link ks. Some good information there!
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Oops! ks?! I meant ys of course. Accidentally sent the message before I'd finished/checked it!
I would think the plentiful essential nutrients would make it taste quite good after a long period between kills without meat.
I would also expect raw liver to be far more palatable if consumed literally fresh at the site of kill rather than following the great passing of time prior to our obtaining it from our respective suppliers.
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I actually am liking my bison liver left in the sealed bag for over a week before eating. like the tangy taste. right now I have opened one and am leaving it sit in a ceramic bowl in the fridge for some days.
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Oops! ks?! I meant ys of course.
no worries.
if i happen to order from them i'll provide feedback.
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I actually am liking my bison liver left in the sealed bag for over a week before eating. like the tangy taste. right now I have opened one and am leaving it sit in a ceramic bowl in the fridge for some days.
And I thought I was a seasoned, hard-core RAFer! Van, you have my admiration! :o
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You might like to try it, I doubt you'd find it any less appealing than I do. Let me know if you do.
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I do accidentally leave it in the fridge for a week or more sometimes if I haven't had the chance to get around to eating it. I must admit, I find it really strong and difficult to eat - and that's even when blending it in a drink with water and tomatoes! I'm obviously a complete paleo-wimp! :D
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Re: copper--it occurred to me that red muscle meat also has significant amounts, so that's one nutrient that liver is probably not that important for.
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not all livers are the same. Some I simply give to my dogs, like the bland crunchy/rubbery ones. Routinely bison livers prove to be my favorites.
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Unfortunately, I have no access to bison meat here in the UK (certainly not 100% grass-fed anyway).
I only tend to eat lamb's liver. I find other liver too strong. Lamb, in comparison, is quite mild when fresh and I suspect that it's literal 'youthfulness' provides it's own benefits in terms of cellular age, vitality and low toxicity.
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Unfortunately, I have no access to bison meat here in the UK (certainly not 100% grass-fed anyway).
This website offers a choice of between grass-finished and grain-finished bison, in the UK:-
http://www.seedsofhealth.co.uk/resources/meat/bushfarmbison.shtml
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Thanks for the link Tyler. I haven't seen them on Seeds of Health before but I haven't been on there for a while.
I couldn't find much in the way of detail on the website. How do you know they offer grass-finished bison - have I missed it or have you spoken with them to ascertain this? Do you know much else about the feeding of their bison? I'd be interested in trying some of there meats!
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Thanks for the link Tyler. I haven't seen them on Seeds of Health before but I haven't been on there for a while.
I couldn't find much in the way of detail on the website. How do you know they offer grass-finished bison - have I missed it or have you spoken with them to ascertain this? Do you know much else about the feeding of their bison? I'd be interested in trying some of there meats!
I'm sorry, I haven't made an enquiry as I have already very good access to wild game(which I find far superior to any grassfed meat by comparison). I merely read the description on the siter mentioning a choice between grain-finished and grass-finished bison meat.
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I'm sorry, I haven't made an enquiry as I have already very good access to wild game(which I find far superior to any grassfed meat by comparison). I merely read the description on the siter mentioning a choice between grain-finished and grass-finished bison meat.
No worries. The Seeds of Health site does frequently seem inaccurate in it's descriptions once one looks into the matter further in my experience.
You certainly seem to do well accessing great sources of meat and seafood! I have reasonable access here in Norfolk to seasonal wild game too which I occasionally indulge in. But I have most of my 100% grass-fed foods delivered from Devon and Shropshire for financial reasons now. As you know, I'm off oysters for now! :)
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Anyone, such as Lex, have any thoughts on the following?
Peter at hyperlipid posits an interesting hypothesis that high IUs of vitamin D supplementation might not be necessary on a meat-based diet, even with limited sunshine, despite his own high levels of supplementation. See:
"Vitamin D and UV fluctuations (2)," http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/search/label/Vitamin%20D%20and%20UV%20fluctuations%20(2)
Some relevant excerpts:
....I am quite well convinced from the Glasgow experience that catastrophic vitamin D deficiency can be largely be ameliorated by eating meat. Can "suboptimal" vitamin D deficiency relating to cancer and CVD also be optimised by eating meat? Supplementing just 100iu/d sorts out rickets but the same effect can be achieved with the occasional burger.
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I can see that aiming for a middle to upper lab range is a reasonable hedging of bets. I'm not sure it is needed unless you come from a history of vegetarianism or persist in the consumption of whole meal flour, especially if coupled with near complete UV avoidance. Never forget that much of the data on vitamin D supplementation comes from a population crushed under the Food Pyramid or its derivatives, an eating plan which almost seems to have been designed to maximise disease. Vitamin D might well help under these situations, but what of those of us who eat Food?
It seems like humans can get away with vegetarianism in the tropics. Move north and you need to eat meat.
This could explain why the Inuit did not get high rates of rickets or kidney stones and had powerful jaws despite months of little sunshine. Some claim that they suffered from osteoporosis, but I don't know the original source(s) of these claims and whether they were regarding pre-European-contact or post-contact Inuit.
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Marrow rich in K2 : http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2008/11/vitamin-k2-in-marrow.html
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There is very limited information out there regarding natural sources of K2.
Here is analysis of K2 in different human tissues. I assume it was done on fresh cadavers.
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=877476
The highest concentration of MK-4 was in pancreas. Similar distribution was found in rat tissues. I would assume it would be similar to ruminants (pancreas function is more or less the same in most of the vertebrates).
Unfortunately, there are very few sources of grass-fed pancreas. I wish there would be more as I prefer to consume organs instead of supplements.