Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: nurture on December 27, 2009, 01:30:40 pm
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I'm looking for some kind of article or proof that raw animal fats are good for the body as opposed to cooked fats. My mom has these really wrong ideas on nutrition and she thinks that eating raw animal fats will clog my arteries. I keep trying to tell her that in the raw unheated, unprocessed form the fats and cholesterol are what we need but she doesn't believe me for whatever reason.
Thanks, thanks thanks in advance.
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You need to read everything you can online re heat-created toxins, such as AGEs(advanced glycation end products, ALEs(Advanced Glycation End products, HCAs(heterocyclic Amines), PAHs(Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons), NSAs(Nitrosamines). Basically, all such studies damn cooked foods as being toxic, with cooked animal fats being singled out as being the worst in health.
Here's a point on the saturated fat page which states:-
"One confounding issue in studies may be the formation of exogenous (outside the body) advanced glycation endproducts (AGEs) and oxidation products generated during cooking, which it appears some of the studies have not controlled for. It has been suggested that, "given the prominence of this type of food in the human diet, the deleterious effects of high-(saturated)fat foods may be in part due to the high content in glycotoxins, above and beyond those due to oxidized fatty acid derivatives." The glycotoxins, as he called them, are more commonly called AGEs" cited from:-
http://www.pnas.org/content/94/12/6474.long
In other words, the paper is stating that it isn't saturated fats that are to blame per se, contrary to current scientific claims, but that it's the heat-created toxins , such as AGEs, formed by cooking saturated-fat-heavy foods, which are really to blame.
Also check out the info for newbies section for the thread "dangers of cooked foods" for more studies.
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This might help: http://www.thincs.org/ or you could just refer to the actual experience of we who eat lots of fat, but most people are so set in their ways that they would rather die than change their ideas.
And die they do.
I don't eat raw fat, tallow which is purified fat works for me.
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Forgive William's post, he is absurdly convinced that cooked/rendered fat is somehow healthy, so is willing to ignore the multitude of scientific evidence damning cooked-animal-fat-consumption.
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I'm looking for some kind of article or proof that raw animal fats are good for the body as opposed to cooked fats. My mom has these really wrong ideas on nutrition and she thinks that eating raw animal fats will clog my arteries. I keep trying to tell her that in the raw unheated, unprocessed form the fats and cholesterol are what we need but she doesn't believe me for whatever reason.
Thanks, thanks thanks in advance.
To be healthy, the fat should not only be raw, but should also be "paleo", which means near the fatty acid profile of wild animals that was consumed during the paleolithic.
Here is a link on wild ruminant tissues : http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v56/n3/pdf/1601307a.pdf
Compared to domesticated animals, wild animals have overall less fat, less saturated fat, more w3 PUFA and less w6 PUFA. Brain (rich in DHA) and marrow (rich in MUFA and CLA), were frequently consumed by our paleo ancestors. This gives us an idea of the kind of fat we are adapted to eat regularly. In general, eating wild animal (game, seafood, wild caught fish and insects?), including organs, marrow, brain, etc. ensure to eat the good fat...
Tallow is clearly an inferior fat as it is processed and comes generally from domesticated animals. It has in addition no existence in human history. Nonetheless it can help beginners who have difficulties to eat raw fat. Or can be a way to preserve fat (like did natives with pemmican).
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Forgive William's post, he is absurdly convinced that cooked/rendered fat is somehow healthy, so is willing to ignore the multitude of scientific evidence damning cooked-animal-fat-consumption.
And William explains with relevance his constancy to ignore the scientific evidences on the danger of cooked fat :
... but most people are so set in their ways that they would rather die than change their ideas.
...
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The trouble is that there is too much damning evidence against cooked animal fats re lower life-expectancy etc. Now, one can poke one's head into the sand, like William, and pretend it doesn't exist, but that is just foolish(and, ultimately, suicidal, in view of the increased mortality of those eating diets high in cooked animal foods). May I remind you that William is also an ardent believer in the notion that smoking isn't harmful to human health, and that the practice of smoking has similiar very solid scientific evidence against it just like the sort of studies damning cooked animal food-consumption.
In short, attacking a stance because one believes it's unhealthy is fine, attacking viewpoints solely because one feels they are representative of the mainstream/Establishment is not scientific or rational.
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May I remind you that William is also an ardent believer in the notion that smoking isn't harmful to human health, and that the practice of smoking has similiar very solid scientific evidence against it just like the sort of studies damning cooked animal food-consumption.
Really?
Maybe it is just an attempt to save the traditional peace pipe ?
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Really?
Maybe it is just an attempt to save the traditional peace pipe ?
;D
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;D
After all, isn't he a Chief ??
:D
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More seriously, the trouble some people face with raw animal fat even after several months (like me) maybe due to the wrong kind of fat from domesticated animals (too much saturate, unbalanced w6/w3 ratio, etc.). What are your thoughts ?
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More seriously, the trouble some people face with raw animal fat even after several months (like me) maybe due to the wrong kind of fat from domesticated animals (too much saturate, unbalanced w6/w3 ratio, etc.). What are your thoughts ?
Have you read "Caveman Cuisine"? - http://www.mercola.com/article/Diet/caveman_cuisine.htm
The excerpt -
Camel fat, from the kind of animal the Neanderthals apparently hunted to extinction, is a whooping 63% saturated! Wild boar fat is about 41% saturated, exactly the same as lard from a domestic pig. Kidney fat-which modern man avoids but which the cave man would have eaten-is highly saturated. Buffalo kidney fat is 58% saturated, antelope kidney fat is 65% saturated, elk kidney fat is 62% saturated and mountain goat kidney fat is 66 % saturated. Caribou marrow has a preponderance of monounsaturated fat, and a small amount of polyunsaturated, but still contains more than 27% saturated fat. Figures for elephant tongue are unavailable but beef tongue is 45% saturated. Bears, which yield 48% of their kilocalories as fat, have a preponderance of monounsaturated fat, the same kind found in olives, almonds and other nuts.
The fat from domesticated pigs are high in MUFA and quite low in SFA. Mutton suet from grass-fed animals is much higher in SFA.
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Have you read "Caveman Cuisine"? - http://www.mercola.com/article/Diet/caveman_cuisine.htm
The excerpt -
Camel fat, from the kind of animal the Neanderthals apparently hunted to extinction, is a whooping 63% saturated! Wild boar fat is about 41% saturated, exactly the same as lard from a domestic pig. Kidney fat-which modern man avoids but which the cave man would have eaten-is highly saturated. Buffalo kidney fat is 58% saturated, antelope kidney fat is 65% saturated, elk kidney fat is 62% saturated and mountain goat kidney fat is 66 % saturated. Caribou marrow has a preponderance of monounsaturated fat, and a small amount of polyunsaturated, but still contains more than 27% saturated fat. Figures for elephant tongue are unavailable but beef tongue is 45% saturated. Bears, which yield 48% of their kilocalories as fat, have a preponderance of monounsaturated fat, the same kind found in olives, almonds and other nuts.
The fat from domesticated pigs are high in MUFA and quite low in SFA. Mutton suet from grass-fed animals is much higher in SFA.
It all depends on
-the tissue :
According to Cordain : Subcutaneous fat is very high in SFA (65%), brain around 30% SFA, muscle fat around 35% SFA and marrow around 25% SFA.
Of course, kidney fat is the highest in SFA, and i am not surprised that Fallon&Enig give the figures for it. But that's not representative of the fatty acid profile of the whole carcass!
-the food the animal eat :
For instance, free-range mutton who can eat acorns have their fat less saturated. Pigs who can eat chestnuts in the forest have more SFA in their fat.
and on what was eaten by our ancestors :
Marrow which was readily eaten is 65% MUFA. Brain, which was also preferred, is only 30% SFA. Wild animals are leaner and have less subcutaneous and muscle fat...
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Yes, it seems that Mercola and the WAPF/Sally Fallon et al, all make the mistake of assuming that Neolithic diets and practices were "caveman" practices. Quite the contrary, palaeo man never consumed salt, and he didn't consume fat-heavy grainfed animals, just leaner wild game etc.
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Paleo man consumed SFA, MUFA and PUFA - ratio depended on the animal they hunted and the parts of the animal they consumed
Besides the hotter the region the more saturated the fatty acids of adipose tissue - in the arctic regions there is more PUFA; in the tropical regions there is more SFA
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Forgive William's post, he is absurdly convinced that cooked/rendered fat is somehow healthy, so is willing to ignore the multitude of scientific evidence damning cooked-animal-fat-consumption.
There was some discussion, not too long ago I think, about the differences between rendered tallow and cooked fat. IIRC, there was a stalemate but little evidence that showed if there truly was toxins present in tallow that aren't in raw animal fat. I just looked back and you posted a link about a study done about the toxins in the tallow
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/jf00070a016?cookieSet=1
The intro and first couple of paragraphs were all that was freely available
The present study was initiated to investigate whether the cholesterol in tallow will undergo oxidation when it is heated at elevated temperatures similar to deep fat frying and specifically concerned the disappearance of cholesterol and appearance of oxidized cholesterol derivatives (OCDs)
Though there were at least 4 OCD's found, the tallow was heated to 155 C (311 F) far above what it is when made originally made. After 376 hours of heating 10% of the cholesterol had been oxidized. There is also no where to check what kind of tallow it was and how it was originally made which further complicates things. But if I'm reading the paragraphs correctly it seems this study would be inconclusive with regards to whether or not there are actualy toxins in the fat in pemmican.
The original thread can be found here http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/hot-topics/different-fat/70/
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My first hand experience with fat therapy was when my brother was almost dying and deathly cold in 2007. A doc suggested we give a lot of Omega 3 FATS in fish oil capsules to my brother. But my herbalist / healer was pretty angry at me for using processed supplements on my brother. I gave in and instead bought fresh RAW TUNA with all the RAW OMEGA 3 FATS and my brother ate 1/2 kilo in one sitting at lunch. Within 24 hours his cold feelings immediately stopped.
I was hooked! Wow! That is the power of RAW FAT.
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Raw fat in treatments:
To cleanse livers, we do liver flushes. Liver flushes are achieved by using a lot of fat. Usually cold pressed virgin olive oil. A raw paleo liver flush variation I also do is using fertilized egg yolks. http://www.curemanual.com/detox-protocols/liver-flush/edwin-2day-apple-juice-fast-liver-flush
To get rid of candida / yeast, there is VCO Detox http://tinyurl.com/vcodetox which is a 100% raw fat therapy diet with 0% protein and 0% carbs.
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Raw fat in treatments:
To cleanse livers, we do liver flushes. Liver flushes are achieved by using a lot of fat. Usually cold pressed virgin olive oil. A raw paleo liver flush variation I also do is using fertilized egg yolks. http://www.curemanual.com/detox-protocols/liver-flush/edwin-2day-apple-juice-fast-liver-flush
To get rid of candida / yeast, there is VCO Detox http://tinyurl.com/vcodetox which is a 100% raw fat therapy diet with 0% protein and 0% carbs.
thanks gs. great info. my husband is very interested...
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I have a customer who sells new zealand green mussel fats / lipids + extra virgin olive oil in capsules called Lyprinol. See http://www.lyprinol.com
In the book Death to Diabetes, the author is of limited knowledge still so recommends extra virgin olive oil as his "best" fat... a lot of it in treating diabetes with super meals. His super meal is seared wild salmon + slightly steamed organic broccoli + extra virgin olive oil. http://diabetes.curemanual.com/2008/07/watch-ex-diabetic-dewayne-teach-how-diabetes-is-cured/
Of course we know better raw fats today than extra virgin olive oil.
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GS how can you store raw plant fats like olive oil/VCO without them going rancid within a few short days?
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Studies on raw meat is often not carried out because it's probably thought that it would be too dangerous because of bacteria, e coli etc. to even attempt. However I have a feeling your mother 'knows' that raw animal fats are bad for you and no study, no matter how convincing and accurate would change her mind.
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There was some discussion, not too long ago I think, about the differences between rendered tallow and cooked fat. IIRC, there was a stalemate but little evidence that showed if there truly was toxins present in tallow that aren't in raw animal fat. I just looked back and you posted a link about a study done about the toxins in the tallow
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/jf00070a016?cookieSet=1
The intro and first couple of paragraphs were all that was freely available
Though there were at least 4 OCD's found, the tallow was heated to 155 C (311 F) far above what it is when made originally made. After 376 hours of heating 10% of the cholesterol had been oxidized. There is also no where to check what kind of tallow it was and how it was originally made which further complicates things. But if I'm reading the paragraphs correctly it seems this study would be inconclusive with regards to whether or not there are actualy toxins in the fat in pemmican.
On the contrary, the evidence is quite clear, that heat oxidises cholesterol. Of course, there are far more studies done on cooked animal fats, in general, with only a handful done on tallow(unsurprising as tallow is hardly eaten by anyone any more). The main point is, though, that fat is not some substance that remains magically unaffected by heat. Simply put, heating any food damages it and changes it in numerous ways, changing its texture, destroying enzymes, adding heat-created toxins etc. Merely rendering a fat isn't going to solve those problems.
Someone, in referring to the dangers of rendered fats, quoted from an online text:-
> "Furthermore, [in cancer] there is commonly a deterioration in the
> lipid (fat-related) composition of the cell walls that allows toxins
> to enter the cells, and prevents waste residue from being removed. The
> main cause of this deterioration is the habitual consumption of heated
> or oxidized fats, and a deficiency of omega-3 fatty acids as in fish
> oils and linseed oil [and, he should have added, in grassfed animal
> fat]."
taken from:- http://www.health-science-spirit.com/cancer1-overview.html
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The main point is, though, that fat is not some substance that remains magically unaffected by heat. Simply put, heating any food damages it and changes it in numerous ways, changing its texture, destroying enzymes, adding heat-created toxins etc. Merely rendering a fat isn't going to solve those problems.
Surprising, then, that so many could eat only pemmican for so long and remain in perfect health. This includes the polar explorers, who lived in the most difficult and demanding conditions known, where illness=death.
Someone, in referring to the dangers of rendered fats, quoted from an online text:-
> "Furthermore, [in cancer] there is commonly a deterioration in the
> lipid (fat-related) composition of the cell walls that allows toxins
> to enter the cells, and prevents waste residue from being removed. The
> main cause of this deterioration is the habitual consumption of heated
> or oxidized fats, and a deficiency of omega-3 fatty acids as in fish
> oils and linseed oil [and, he should have added, in grassfed animal
> fat]."
Pemmicaneers eat neither heated or oxidized fats, nor do we lack omega-3 fatty acids, so no worries about cancer.
Furthermore, cancer cannot exist in a properly oxygenated system which we create by eating pemmican. This has been known since the 1930s. (Warburg)
taken from:- http://www.health-science-spirit.com/cancer1-overview.html
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GS how can you store raw plant fats like olive oil/VCO without them going rancid within a few short days?
I honestly don't know the chemistry behind it but they do keep quite well.
Maybe it is just the way they are.
I see VCO and EVOO as mere treatment fats. They are purified. They are not mainstay everyday fats for eating. I do not think they are paleo. Animal fats, now those rock, they taste much better too. VCO and EVOO is like taking medicine. Yuck.
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Surprising, then, that so many could eat only pemmican for so long and remain in perfect health. This includes the polar explorers, why lived in the most difficult and demanding conditions known, where illness=death.
Do you have any testimonials of healthy people eating only pemmican for more then 10 years ?
It can take several years for deficiencies to become obvious and reveal symptoms. I know a long time frutarian (more than 10 years) in apparent perfect health.
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GS how can you store raw plant fats like olive oil/VCO without them going rancid within a few short days?
Keep EVOO in airtight and dark container.
I once spilled some EVO in the can in which I keep fired brass .22lr cases; it went rancid in days, while the remnant in the 2 year old metal 3 litre can is still good.
(but good for what? it costs too much to burn or throw out, and I don't know how to make paint of it. Suggestions?)
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Do you have any testimonials of healthy people eating only pemmican for more then 10 years ?
It can take several years for deficiencies to become obvious and reveal symptoms. I know a long time frutarian (more than 10 years) in apparent perfect health.
Testimonials not required, as I tested it on myself. The test was: does it result in healing or not? It passed.
I do not believe that healing is possible with deficient diet, and if I'm wrong it will still be better than ischemic heart disease.
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I honestly don't know the chemistry behind it but they do keep quite well.
Maybe it is just the way they are.
I see VCO and EVOO as mere treatment fats. They are purified. They are not mainstay everyday fats for eating. I do not think they are paleo. Animal fats, now those rock, they taste much better too. VCO and EVOO is like taking medicine. Yuck.
Whats EVOO?
I would like to know the chemistry that allows raw plant fats to last more than a few days at ambient temp? White man magic!?
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Whats EVOO?
Extra Virgin Olive Oil.
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Testimonials not required, as I tested it on myself. The test was: does it result in healing or not? It passed.
I do not believe that healing is possible with deficient diet, and if I'm wrong it will still be better than ischemic heart disease.
For how long have you been eating a pemmican only diet ?
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Now back to these 'raw' plant fats that last months and months without going off!
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The fact is , William, is that those polar explorers only chose pemmican as a last-resort survival -food - otherwise they would have got rid of it pronto!
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On the contrary, the evidence is quite clear, that heat oxidises cholesterol. Of course, there are far more studies done on cooked animal fats, in general, with only a handful done on tallow(unsurprising as tallow is hardly eaten by anyone any more). The main point is, though, that fat is not some substance that remains magically unaffected by heat. Simply put, heating any food damages it and changes it in numerous ways, changing its texture, destroying enzymes, adding heat-created toxins etc. Merely rendering a fat isn't going to solve those problems.
How is the evidence quite clear? Did you read the link? The only article you linked provided no evidence that tallow had oxidized cholesterol, only that 10% of the cholesterol had been oxidized after 376 hours of heating the tallow at 155 C. After 376 hours, or more than 15 days of straight heating, a 10% oxidation rate seems quite low, though clearly I have no idea what low is. This would imply to me that cooking a steak on low heat, say around 155 C for 30 minutes would oxidize virtually no cholesterol. Perhaps lots of cholesterol gets oxidized very quickly though and then comes to a halt, but from the limited info from the article, they mention oxidation increases over time so this scenario isn't as likely.
I also don't see why not eating tallow anymore makes a case that tallow is bad either. I'd never even heard of tallow before this last year and you cannot buy it at local supermarkets here in the US. Perhaps tallow was used much more 50-100 years ago but since that time they have switched to primarily highly processed vegetable oils which is a far worse substitution. Its even relatively difficult to find organ meats as well.
I agree that it would make sense that pemmican is a second class food simply because it is processed and that there is no evidence that paleo man would have consumed any rendered fat. Maybe they did. Its still rather strange though that there is more and more anecdotal evidence that pemmican could be indeed the same, or even better for health than raw meat. We simply cannot ignore this. Seeing that there still remains no scientific evidence that tallows contain toxins I will remain skeptical.
Also to add - It could be that pemmican, though second class food, can heal better than raw meat at first since everyone here for decades has already compromised their body's ability to do what evolution had intended it for it to do. For example, several have noted that taking HCL pills have greatly increased their digestibility of meat. Perhaps pemmican can be thought of as the same way. A man made product, though not perfect can be more effective than what nature has given us when having a compromised system. The game completely changes when you change the rules. The same plan(raw meat) might not work as well as it was intended to under the new rules (compromised body). Man changed the rules for good long ago and so maybe man needs to change the solution as well with pemmican being a slight modification.
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I would like to know the chemistry that allows raw plant fats to last more than a few days at ambient temp? White man magic!?
Raw plant fat such as EVVO lasts indeed easily for a few months without going rancid if kept in the dark and at room temperature (RT) or better in fridge. This is because:
-it is mainly SFAs and MUFAs with little PUFAs (Polyunsaturated fatty acids). Only PUFAs are easily oxidized by light or even in dark at RT .
-it still contains the natural antioxidants (Vit E, polyphenols etc) that the plant synthesises to prevent their oxidation when in the plant's organism. These antioxidants are destroyed and part of the fatty acids damaged if the oil extraction takes place by heat as for instance in ordinary non extra virgin olive oil.
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I agree that it would make sense that pemmican is a second class food simply because it is processed and that there is no evidence that paleo man would have consumed any rendered fat. Maybe they did. Its still rather strange though that there is more and more anecdotal evidence that pemmican could be indeed the same, or even better for health than raw meat. We simply cannot ignore this. Seeing that there still remains no scientific evidence that tallows contain toxins I will remain skeptical.
Also to add - It could be that pemmican, though second class food, can heal better than raw meat at first since everyone here for decades has already compromised their body's ability to do what evolution had intended it for it to do. For example, several have noted that taking HCL pills have greatly increased their digestibility of meat. Perhaps pemmican can be thought of as the same way. A man made product, though not perfect can be more effective than what nature has given us when having a compromised system. The game completely changes when you change the rules. The same plan(raw meat) might not work as well as it was intended to under the new rules (compromised body). Man changed the rules for good long ago and so maybe man needs to change the solution as well with pemmican being a slight modification.
I have really bad reactions (headache, burp, etc.) with tallow heated at high temperature, while tallow made at low temperature is perfectly digested. And I am not the only one. It means that there is a big difference between the two.
I also digest very easily "raw pemmican". But if I eat only pemmican for more than a few days, I crave raw meat, as if something was missing in pemmican. Maybe the water in meat contains some nutrients that are lost during the drying process ?
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How is the evidence quite clear? Did you read the link? The only article you linked provided no evidence that tallow had oxidized cholesterol, only that 10% of the cholesterol had been oxidized after 376 hours of heating the tallow at 155 C. After 376 hours, or more than 15 days of straight heating, a 10% oxidation rate seems quite low, though clearly I have no idea what low is. This would imply to me that cooking a steak on low heat, say around 155 C for 30 minutes would oxidize virtually no cholesterol. Perhaps lots of cholesterol gets oxidized very quickly though and then comes to a halt, but from the limited info from the article, they mention oxidation increases over time so this scenario isn't as likely.
I agree. The article referred to doesn't demonstrate anything about toxicity of tallow by oxidation or heat damage of the fatty acids. This topic has actually already been discussed elsewhere in this forum.
Tallow obtained by rendering near boiling water temperature or below most likely contains only a small quantity of oxidised or damaged fatty acids. That's what one might expect from the chemistry involved because tallow is usually obtained from beef or other fats i.e. mainly saturated and monounsaturated fats and these fatty acids are fairly stable up to 100°C. Yet I don't know of any scientific study that adresses this problem of fatty acid and oxidation damage in tallow.
So IMO tallow is certainly not very seriously toxic because of fatty acid damage or oxidation as are for instance the modern processed plant fats or oils that unfortunately replaced progressively this traditional fat in the past half century. Yet tallow is definitely a second class food because rendering certainly destroys a good deal of the known (Vit A, D, K2..) or yet unknown (?) fat soluble nutriments which are very important for human health. These lost nutriments such as Vit A may be quite important in the digestion of the fat. Raw fat is very easily digested.
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Tallow obtained by rendering near boiling water temperature or below most likely contains only a small quantity of oxidised or damaged fatty acids. That's what one might expect from the chemistry involved because tallow is usually obtained from beef or other fats i.e. mainly saturated and monounsaturated fats and these fatty acids are fairly stable up to 100°C. Yet I don't know of any scientific study that adresses this problem of fatty acid and oxidation damage in tallow.
Yes, SFA combined with MUFA are stable fatty acids, but high temperature generates inevitably a lot of heat-created toxins, which are linked to many diseases.
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For how long have you been eating a pemmican only diet ?
I don't. Pemmican is a staple, some days pemmican and raw egg yolk only, other days I add raw ground beef+tallow.
The fact is , William, is that those polar explorers only chose pemmican as a last-resort survival -food - otherwise they would have got rid of it pronto!
That is exactly why I chose it!
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Once I tried the rendered mutton fat and it was awful; I can't imagine how on the earth people can eat it
The raw mutton suet is much much better.
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Once I tried the rendered mutton fat and it was awful; I can't imagine how on the earth people can eat it
The raw mutton suet is much much better.
Sometimes I really wish there was a way we could taste each other's food. We just so live far apart.
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How is the evidence quite clear? Did you read the link? The only article you linked provided no evidence that tallow had oxidized cholesterol, only that 10% of the cholesterol had been oxidized after 376 hours of heating the tallow at 155 C. After 376 hours, or more than 15 days of straight heating, a 10% oxidation rate seems quite low, though clearly I have no idea what low is. This would imply to me that cooking a steak on low heat, say around 155 C for 30 minutes would oxidize virtually no cholesterol. Perhaps lots of cholesterol gets oxidized very quickly though and then comes to a halt, but from the limited info from the article, they mention oxidation increases over time so this scenario isn't as likely.
There is very little scientific data on the cooking or rendering of tallow for people to make absolute statements either way on the issue of how tallow is affected. So we need more studies. That said, it is still illogical for people to suggest that rendered tallow isn't a food that has been significantly changed from the raw suet it originated from. One only has to see changes in texture etc. to realise this.
I also don't see why not eating tallow anymore makes a case that tallow is bad either. I'd never even heard of tallow before this last year and you cannot buy it at local supermarkets here in the US. Perhaps tallow was used much more 50-100 years ago but since that time they have switched to primarily highly processed vegetable oils which is a far worse substitution. Its even relatively difficult to find organ meats as well.
I didn't suggest that tallow was bad because it's hardly eaten any more. I was merely pointing out that the reason why there are so very few studies done on rendered animal fats is because they are hardly ever eaten any more.
I agree that it would make sense that pemmican is a second class food simply because it is processed and that there is no evidence that paleo man would have consumed any rendered fat. Maybe they did. Its still rather strange though that there is more and more anecdotal evidence that pemmican could be indeed the same, or even better for health than raw meat. We simply cannot ignore this. Seeing that there still remains no scientific evidence that tallows contain toxins I will remain skeptical.
There is actually plenty of anecdotal evidence on this and other forums to suggest quite clearly that pemmican is very unhealthy by comparison to raw animal fat(plenty rawists mention eating pemmican not for health but for convenience for when travelling , mention of fatigue etc. with pemmican). As for pemmican in palaeo times, that is a very big stretch. Pemmican certainly could never have existed before the advent of cooking, and the only genuine evidence for cooking is c.250,000 years ago, so that covers only 10% of the Palaeolithic era. And I have mainly come across mentions of pemmican-manufacturing primarily in Arctic areas so the rest of humanity living outside the glaciers would mostly have never eaten the stuff.
Another point about pemmican is that it, much like supermarket foods, can be stored for very long periods. It is a general rule(and a palaeo concept) that the longer the shelf-life of a food-product, the more unhealthy it is going to be for you.
Also to add - It could be that pemmican, though second class food, can heal better than raw meat at first since everyone here for decades has already compromised their body's ability to do what evolution had intended it for it to do. For example, several have noted that taking HCL pills have greatly increased their digestibility of meat. Perhaps pemmican can be thought of as the same way. A man made product, though not perfect can be more effective than what nature has given us when having a compromised system. The game completely changes when you change the rules. The same plan(raw meat) might not work as well as it was intended to under the new rules (compromised body). Man changed the rules for good long ago and so maybe man needs to change the solution as well with pemmican being a slight modification.
Unfortunately for you, most people find raw meat fat works better for them than pemmican re digestion etc. I would agree that some people(usually older people) might feel the need to take HCL, especially after years of cooked-food-consumption wrecking their digestive systems, but it would be stupid for them to eat cooked animal fat such as pemmican in order to try to correct a problem caused by cooked animal fat in the first place.
As regards cooked animal food in general, there are now vast numbers of studies showing direct connections between cooked animal food consumption and lower lifespan, heart-disease,artery issues etc. These studies particularly focus on foods heavy in cooked animal fats as being the unhealthiest foods, containing massive amounts of toxins etc. So, any claims that cooked animal fat is healthy are already shot through. I'll grant that more studies need to be done on tallow, rendered or otherwise, but the weight of the evidence against cooked animal fats in general strongly suggests otherwise. One might make an arbitrary, unproven claim that pemmican is "less unhealthy" than raw fats, but that's all, really.
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TD, sooner or later you should take a look at the difference between cooked animal fats and rendered animal fats.
Really, confusing the two does not give a good impression.
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TD, sooner or later you should take a look at the difference between cooked animal fats and rendered animal fats.
Really, confusing the two does not give a good impression.
Okay, this is interesting for me. Can you post a link to a video or url how to render animal fat?
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TD, sooner or later you should take a look at the difference between cooked animal fats and rendered animal fats.
Really, confusing the two does not give a good impression.
I might well do a pemmican-experiment in the future, just to see. I suspect, of course, that it will have the same negative effect on me as all other cooked fats, especially given other people's negative reaction to it. Trouble is making pemmican on my own seems a major hassle. There may be 1 or 2 Uk companies which provide real pemmican.
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which are those?
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I am eating 100% raw ground beef (80/20 and 75/25) and I think that trumps pemmican anyday. :P
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I am eating 100% raw ground beef (80/20 and 75/25) and I think that trumps pemmican anyday. :P
I can't get 80/20 or 75/25, but I did ask the butcher if anything is added to the ground beef. He said yes, a white powder. The language barrier prevented further info.
There is a list of stuff that can legally be added to ground beef, you have to ask.
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which are those?
No idea, I only did 1 quick google and found some wild-west-themed site selling american stuff like pemmican. Haven't found it since.
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When they are cooking the animal fats for these testes, are they using just any old supermarket animal fat? because if the 'toxins' are stored in the fats, then when you go and cook up the fat that the toxins are in, you've kind of gone and volatized them all up.
But honestly, if you think that tallow is anywhere in the same league as the raw fat straight from the source, you're just kidding yourself.
Nothing else heated is good for you, why would fat be any different? haha
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at this point pemmican and tallow... these are the least interesting subjects to me. so far i never tried them and i don't know what the future holds. when i was raw vegan, i took the extreme path also. i never used my dehydrators to make raw cookies or other stuffs. if i put the fire on my home, that will be only making some herbal teas.
i hear and also believe that raw fat is extremely good for glands. the raw fat is the main fuel of energy in lex's diet and also in my toddler's diet. raw fat plays significant role of increasing mitochondria counts in our cells. i just wonder that is there any way we can count our mitochondria?
if we intake raw fat, body doesn't make any extra cholesterol in the body...
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I've moved beyond the endless vitriolic pemmican arguments because I've been making only raw (below 40C) pemmican (as well as unmixed raw jerky and raw melted suet). I still think it's less optimal than Lex's mix of ground raw meat and suet, if for no other reason than much of the connective tissue is discarded, and I think that connective tissue likely has some health benefit (though I wonder about the connective tissue in grain-fed meats, which is more plentiful than in grassfed and which therefore suggests to me that this is unnatural and it may contain some unhealthful ingredients or just be more than a body needs, but this is speculation at this point). I doubt that even pemmican heated at higher temps is nearly as bad as Tyler makes it out to be, but I don't eat pemmican because I think it's just as healthy as raw meat and suet or for preservation purposes. I eat raw pemmican, raw jerky and raw "tallow" because it appears to be almost as healthy as raw ground meat and suet and it helps me keep my weight up (Lex and other ZCers lost substantial weight early on in their experiments, which I could not afford, as I was already underweight to start with), is tasty, convenient, portable, easily and quickly consumed, easy for me to digest (others haven't been so lucky with higher-heated pemmican, so beware), and socially more acceptable than raw meat and fat that has only been ground. It works for me, but it's not for everyone.
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I guess that the connective tissue so plentiful in the ground beef I get is why I have trouble with it. Same for the crunchy bits filtered out of tallow.