Author Topic: Evidence that raw fats are good for humans?  (Read 18707 times)

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carnivore

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Re: Evidence that raw fats are good for humans?
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2009, 09:03:41 pm »
Surprising, then, that so many could eat only pemmican for so long and remain in perfect health. This includes the polar explorers, why lived in the most difficult and demanding conditions known, where illness=death.

Do you have any testimonials of healthy people eating only pemmican for more then 10 years ?
It can take several years for deficiencies to become obvious and reveal symptoms. I know a long time frutarian (more than 10 years) in apparent perfect health. 

William

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Re: Evidence that raw fats are good for humans?
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2009, 09:14:37 pm »
GS how can you store raw plant fats like olive oil/VCO without them going rancid within a few short days?

Keep EVOO in airtight and dark container.
I once spilled some EVO in the can in which I keep fired brass .22lr cases; it went rancid in days, while the remnant in the 2 year old metal 3 litre can is still good.
(but good for what? it costs too much to burn or throw out, and I don't know how to make paint of it. Suggestions?)

William

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Re: Evidence that raw fats are good for humans?
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2009, 09:19:56 pm »
Do you have any testimonials of healthy people eating only pemmican for more then 10 years ?
It can take several years for deficiencies to become obvious and reveal symptoms. I know a long time frutarian (more than 10 years) in apparent perfect health. 

Testimonials not required, as I tested it on myself. The test was: does it result in healing or not? It passed.
I do not believe that healing is possible with deficient diet, and if I'm wrong it will still be better than ischemic heart disease.

Offline wodgina

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Re: Evidence that raw fats are good for humans?
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2009, 10:01:14 pm »
I honestly don't know the chemistry behind it but they do keep quite well.
Maybe it is just the way they are.

I see VCO and EVOO as mere treatment fats.  They are purified.  They are not mainstay everyday fats for eating.  I do not think they are paleo.  Animal fats, now those rock, they taste much better too. VCO and EVOO is like taking medicine. Yuck.

Whats EVOO?

I would like to know the chemistry that allows raw plant fats to last more than a few days at ambient temp? White man magic!?
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William

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Re: Evidence that raw fats are good for humans?
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2009, 10:05:59 pm »

carnivore

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Re: Evidence that raw fats are good for humans?
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2009, 10:08:30 pm »
Testimonials not required, as I tested it on myself. The test was: does it result in healing or not? It passed.
I do not believe that healing is possible with deficient diet, and if I'm wrong it will still be better than ischemic heart disease.

For how long have you been eating a pemmican only diet ?

Offline wodgina

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Re: Evidence that raw fats are good for humans?
« Reply #31 on: December 28, 2009, 10:16:36 pm »


Now back to these 'raw' plant fats that last months and months without going off!
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Evidence that raw fats are good for humans?
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2009, 12:02:29 am »
The fact is , William, is that those polar explorers only chose pemmican as a last-resort survival -food - otherwise they would have got rid of it pronto!
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Offline Paleo Donk

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Re: Evidence that raw fats are good for humans?
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2009, 01:05:25 am »
 On the contrary, the evidence is quite clear, that heat oxidises cholesterol. Of course, there are far more studies done on cooked animal fats, in general, with only a handful done on tallow(unsurprising as tallow is hardly eaten by anyone  any more). The main point is, though, that fat is not some substance that remains magically unaffected by heat. Simply put, heating any  food damages it and changes it in numerous ways, changing its texture, destroying enzymes, adding heat-created toxins etc. Merely rendering a fat isn't going to solve those problems.

How is the evidence quite clear? Did you read the link? The only article you linked provided no evidence that tallow had oxidized cholesterol, only that 10% of the cholesterol had been oxidized after 376 hours of heating the tallow at 155 C.  After 376 hours, or more than 15 days of straight heating, a 10% oxidation rate seems quite low, though clearly I have no idea what low is. This would imply to me that cooking a steak on low heat, say around 155 C for 30 minutes would oxidize virtually no cholesterol. Perhaps lots of cholesterol gets oxidized very quickly though and then comes to a halt, but from the limited info from the article, they mention oxidation increases over time so this scenario isn't as likely.

I also don't see why not eating tallow anymore makes a case that tallow is bad either. I'd never even heard of tallow before this last year and you cannot buy it at local supermarkets here in the US. Perhaps tallow was used much more 50-100 years ago but since that time they have switched to primarily highly processed vegetable oils which is a far worse substitution. Its even relatively difficult to find organ meats as well.

I agree that it would make sense that pemmican is a second class food simply because it is processed and that there is no evidence that paleo man would have consumed any rendered fat. Maybe they did. Its still rather strange though that there is more and more anecdotal evidence that pemmican could be indeed the same, or even better for health than raw meat. We simply cannot ignore this. Seeing that there still remains no scientific evidence that tallows contain toxins I will remain skeptical.

Also to add - It could be that pemmican, though second class food, can heal better than raw meat at first since everyone here for decades has already compromised their body's ability to do what evolution had intended it for it to do. For example, several have noted that taking HCL pills have greatly increased their digestibility of meat. Perhaps pemmican can be thought of as the same way. A man made product, though not perfect can be more effective than what nature has given us when having a compromised system. The game completely changes when you change the rules. The same plan(raw meat) might not work as well as it was intended to under the new rules (compromised body). Man changed the rules for good long ago and so maybe man needs to change the solution as well with pemmican being a slight modification.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 01:17:40 am by Paleo Donk »

alphagruis

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Re: Evidence that raw fats are good for humans?
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2009, 01:19:23 am »

I would like to know the chemistry that allows raw plant fats to last more than a few days at ambient temp? White man magic!?

Raw plant fat such as EVVO lasts indeed easily for a few months without going rancid if kept in the dark and at room temperature (RT) or better in fridge. This is because:

-it is mainly SFAs and MUFAs with little PUFAs (Polyunsaturated fatty acids). Only PUFAs are easily oxidized by light  or even in dark at RT .

-it still contains the natural antioxidants (Vit E, polyphenols etc) that the plant synthesises to prevent their oxidation when in the plant's organism. These antioxidants are destroyed and part of the fatty acids damaged if the oil extraction takes place by heat as for instance in ordinary non extra virgin olive oil.  

carnivore

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Re: Evidence that raw fats are good for humans?
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2009, 01:43:02 am »
I agree that it would make sense that pemmican is a second class food simply because it is processed and that there is no evidence that paleo man would have consumed any rendered fat. Maybe they did. Its still rather strange though that there is more and more anecdotal evidence that pemmican could be indeed the same, or even better for health than raw meat. We simply cannot ignore this. Seeing that there still remains no scientific evidence that tallows contain toxins I will remain skeptical.

Also to add - It could be that pemmican, though second class food, can heal better than raw meat at first since everyone here for decades has already compromised their body's ability to do what evolution had intended it for it to do. For example, several have noted that taking HCL pills have greatly increased their digestibility of meat. Perhaps pemmican can be thought of as the same way. A man made product, though not perfect can be more effective than what nature has given us when having a compromised system. The game completely changes when you change the rules. The same plan(raw meat) might not work as well as it was intended to under the new rules (compromised body). Man changed the rules for good long ago and so maybe man needs to change the solution as well with pemmican being a slight modification.

I have really bad reactions (headache, burp, etc.) with tallow heated at high temperature, while tallow made at low temperature is perfectly digested. And I am not the only one. It means that there is a big difference between the two.
I also digest very easily "raw pemmican". But if I eat only pemmican for more than a few days, I crave raw meat, as if something was missing in pemmican. Maybe the water in meat contains some nutrients that are lost during the drying process ?

alphagruis

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Re: Evidence that raw fats are good for humans?
« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2009, 02:01:37 am »
How is the evidence quite clear? Did you read the link? The only article you linked provided no evidence that tallow had oxidized cholesterol, only that 10% of the cholesterol had been oxidized after 376 hours of heating the tallow at 155 C.  After 376 hours, or more than 15 days of straight heating, a 10% oxidation rate seems quite low, though clearly I have no idea what low is. This would imply to me that cooking a steak on low heat, say around 155 C for 30 minutes would oxidize virtually no cholesterol. Perhaps lots of cholesterol gets oxidized very quickly though and then comes to a halt, but from the limited info from the article, they mention oxidation increases over time so this scenario isn't as likely.


I agree. The article referred to doesn't demonstrate anything about toxicity of tallow by oxidation or heat damage of the fatty acids. This topic has actually already been discussed elsewhere in this forum.
Tallow obtained by rendering near boiling water temperature or below most likely contains only a small quantity of oxidised or damaged fatty acids. That's what one might expect from the chemistry involved because tallow is usually obtained from beef or other fats i.e. mainly saturated and monounsaturated fats and these fatty acids are fairly stable up to 100°C. Yet I don't know of any scientific study that adresses this problem of fatty acid and oxidation damage in tallow.
So IMO tallow is certainly not very seriously toxic because of fatty acid damage or oxidation as are for instance the modern processed plant fats or oils that unfortunately replaced progressively this traditional fat in the past half century. Yet tallow is definitely a second class food because rendering certainly destroys a good deal of the known (Vit A, D, K2..) or yet unknown (?) fat soluble nutriments which are very important for human health. These lost nutriments such as Vit A may be quite important in the digestion of the fat. Raw fat is very easily digested.    
« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 02:09:47 am by alphagruis »

Offline Hannibal

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Re: Evidence that raw fats are good for humans?
« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2009, 03:18:34 am »
Tallow obtained by rendering near boiling water temperature or below most likely contains only a small quantity of oxidised or damaged fatty acids. That's what one might expect from the chemistry involved because tallow is usually obtained from beef or other fats i.e. mainly saturated and monounsaturated fats and these fatty acids are fairly stable up to 100°C. Yet I don't know of any scientific study that adresses this problem of fatty acid and oxidation damage in tallow. 
Yes, SFA combined with MUFA are stable fatty acids, but high temperature generates inevitably a lot of heat-created toxins, which are linked to many diseases.
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William

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Re: Evidence that raw fats are good for humans?
« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2009, 06:02:44 am »
For how long have you been eating a pemmican only diet ?

I don't. Pemmican is a staple, some days pemmican and raw egg yolk only, other days I add raw ground beef+tallow.

Quote
The fact is , William, is that those polar explorers only chose pemmican as a last-resort survival -food - otherwise they would have got rid of it pronto!

That is exactly why I chose it!

Offline Hannibal

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Re: Evidence that raw fats are good for humans?
« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2009, 02:36:30 pm »
Once I tried the rendered mutton fat and it was awful; I can't imagine how on the earth people can eat it
The raw mutton suet is much much better.
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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Evidence that raw fats are good for humans?
« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2009, 03:58:34 pm »
Once I tried the rendered mutton fat and it was awful; I can't imagine how on the earth people can eat it
The raw mutton suet is much much better.

Sometimes I really wish there was a way we could taste each other's food.  We just so live far apart.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Evidence that raw fats are good for humans?
« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2009, 09:02:10 pm »
How is the evidence quite clear? Did you read the link? The only article you linked provided no evidence that tallow had oxidized cholesterol, only that 10% of the cholesterol had been oxidized after 376 hours of heating the tallow at 155 C.  After 376 hours, or more than 15 days of straight heating, a 10% oxidation rate seems quite low, though clearly I have no idea what low is. This would imply to me that cooking a steak on low heat, say around 155 C for 30 minutes would oxidize virtually no cholesterol. Perhaps lots of cholesterol gets oxidized very quickly though and then comes to a halt, but from the limited info from the article, they mention oxidation increases over time so this scenario isn't as likely.

There is very little scientific data on the cooking or rendering of tallow for people to make absolute statements either way on the issue of how tallow is affected. So we need more studies. That said, it is still illogical for people to suggest that rendered tallow isn't a food that has been significantly changed from the raw suet it originated from. One only has to see changes in texture etc. to realise this.
Quote
I also don't see why not eating tallow anymore makes a case that tallow is bad either. I'd never even heard of tallow before this last year and you cannot buy it at local supermarkets here in the US. Perhaps tallow was used much more 50-100 years ago but since that time they have switched to primarily highly processed vegetable oils which is a far worse substitution. Its even relatively difficult to find organ meats as well.

 I didn't suggest that tallow was bad because it's hardly eaten any more. I was merely pointing out that the reason why there are so very few studies done on rendered animal fats is because they are hardly ever eaten any more.

Quote
I agree that it would make sense that pemmican is a second class food simply because it is processed and that there is no evidence that paleo man would have consumed any rendered fat. Maybe they did. Its still rather strange though that there is more and more anecdotal evidence that pemmican could be indeed the same, or even better for health than raw meat. We simply cannot ignore this. Seeing that there still remains no scientific evidence that tallows contain toxins I will remain skeptical.

There is actually plenty of anecdotal evidence on this and other forums to suggest quite clearly that pemmican is very unhealthy by comparison to raw animal fat(plenty rawists mention eating pemmican not for health but for convenience for when travelling , mention of fatigue etc. with pemmican). As for pemmican in palaeo times, that is a very big stretch. Pemmican certainly could never have existed before the advent of cooking, and the only genuine evidence for cooking is c.250,000 years ago, so that covers only 10% of the Palaeolithic era. And I have mainly  come across mentions of pemmican-manufacturing primarily  in Arctic areas so the rest of humanity living outside the glaciers would mostly  have never eaten the stuff.

Another point about pemmican is that it, much like supermarket foods, can be stored for very long periods. It is a general rule(and a palaeo concept) that the longer the shelf-life of a food-product, the more unhealthy it is going to be for you.

Quote
Also to add - It could be that pemmican, though second class food, can heal better than raw meat at first since everyone here for decades has already compromised their body's ability to do what evolution had intended it for it to do. For example, several have noted that taking HCL pills have greatly increased their digestibility of meat. Perhaps pemmican can be thought of as the same way. A man made product, though not perfect can be more effective than what nature has given us when having a compromised system. The game completely changes when you change the rules. The same plan(raw meat) might not work as well as it was intended to under the new rules (compromised body). Man changed the rules for good long ago and so maybe man needs to change the solution as well with pemmican being a slight modification.
  Unfortunately for you, most people find raw meat fat works better for them than pemmican re digestion etc. I would agree that some people(usually older people) might feel the need to take HCL, especially after years of cooked-food-consumption wrecking their digestive systems, but it would be stupid for them to eat cooked animal fat such as pemmican  in order to try to correct a problem caused by cooked animal fat in the first place.

As regards cooked animal food in general, there are now vast numbers of studies showing direct connections between cooked animal food consumption and lower lifespan, heart-disease,artery issues etc. These studies particularly focus on foods heavy in cooked animal fats as being the unhealthiest foods, containing massive amounts of toxins etc. So, any claims that cooked animal fat is healthy are already shot through. I'll grant that more studies need to be done on tallow, rendered or otherwise, but the weight of the evidence against cooked animal fats in general strongly suggests otherwise. One might make an arbitrary, unproven claim that pemmican is "less unhealthy" than raw fats, but that's all, really.
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William

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Re: Evidence that raw fats are good for humans?
« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2009, 10:51:53 pm »
TD, sooner or later you should take a look at the difference between cooked animal fats and rendered animal fats.
Really, confusing the two does not give a good impression.

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Re: Evidence that raw fats are good for humans?
« Reply #43 on: December 30, 2009, 01:16:33 am »
TD, sooner or later you should take a look at the difference between cooked animal fats and rendered animal fats.
Really, confusing the two does not give a good impression.

Okay, this is interesting for me.  Can you post a link to a video or url how to render animal fat?
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Evidence that raw fats are good for humans?
« Reply #44 on: December 30, 2009, 03:14:42 am »
TD, sooner or later you should take a look at the difference between cooked animal fats and rendered animal fats.
Really, confusing the two does not give a good impression.
  I might well do a pemmican-experiment in the future, just to see. I suspect, of course, that it will have the same negative effect on me as all other cooked fats, especially given other people's negative reaction to it. Trouble is making pemmican on my own seems a major hassle. There may be 1 or 2 Uk companies which provide real pemmican.
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Re: Evidence that raw fats are good for humans?
« Reply #45 on: December 30, 2009, 04:45:44 am »
which are those?

Offline klowcarb

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Re: Evidence that raw fats are good for humans?
« Reply #46 on: December 30, 2009, 11:16:54 am »
I am eating 100% raw ground beef (80/20 and 75/25) and I think that trumps pemmican anyday.  :P

William

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Re: Evidence that raw fats are good for humans?
« Reply #47 on: December 30, 2009, 12:45:40 pm »
I am eating 100% raw ground beef (80/20 and 75/25) and I think that trumps pemmican anyday.  :P

I can't get 80/20 or 75/25, but I did ask the butcher if anything is added to the ground beef. He said yes, a white powder. The language barrier prevented further info.
There is a list of stuff that can legally be added to ground beef, you have to ask.

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Re: Evidence that raw fats are good for humans?
« Reply #48 on: December 30, 2009, 05:43:29 pm »
which are those?
  No idea, I only did  1 quick google and found some wild-west-themed site selling american stuff like pemmican. Haven't found it since.
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Re: Evidence that raw fats are good for humans?
« Reply #49 on: December 31, 2009, 11:24:52 am »
When they are cooking the animal fats for these testes, are they using just any old supermarket animal fat? because if the 'toxins' are stored in the fats, then when you go and cook up the fat that the toxins are in, you've kind of gone and volatized them all up.

But honestly, if you think that tallow is anywhere in the same league as the raw fat straight from the source, you're just kidding yourself.
Nothing else heated is good for you, why would fat be any different? haha
That's not paleo.

 

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