Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: kurite on February 25, 2010, 02:18:45 pm
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Hi as i mentioned in other posts my local whole foods carries raw grass fed ground beef and its pretty cheap. Anyway, I know obviously cooking meat is dangerous and although theres not much proof, freezing it may also damage bee. But what about grinding it? When they grind it, is it at fast speeds that can somehow damage the beef? Any thoughts on it?
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Most butchers adulterate ground beef with additives (fillers, preservatives, flavoring).
I also personally do not feel as much energy after eating a meal of ground beef as I do after eating a cut of meat.
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Even when its grass fed???
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never had a problem with ground meats
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I wait until the meat is slimy and a bit grey looking. No way in nature would meat be wrapped in plastic and kept in a freezer or fridge! There is no fridges in nature and thats why people get food poisoning cos they put their meat in the freezer and the healthy bacteria like Ecoli, Botulism, Listeria, Salmonella go all whacko and make us sick.
Watch AV on the 'Ripleys Believe It Or Not' youtube and that is how you need to eat your meat. Black or really dark green is the best for a healthy liver!! If you get really sick that means your body is just detoxing from other stuff I think.
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This thread is about ground beef not frozen beef?
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Even when its grass fed???
It's much less likely but you never know. It really depends on the seller.
I get very clear reactions if a company adds stuff to my meat. I can vouch Slanker's doesn't add anythign to theirs but I haven't had other national sellers' products.
As for energy levels; yes, even with grassfed I notice less energy with ground meats that solid cuts. Even fresh vs. fresh which I get from my local seller.
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djr - i know you've posted this before, but what are the cuts of meat that you like best?
also, as for energy difference between ground and cuts of meat.. is this something subtle or obvious to you?
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djr - i know you've posted this before, but what are the cuts of meat that you like best?
I prefer Chuck. I get a primal for less than $4 a pound every other week so the price can't be beat. It's also one of the fattiest cuts and is quite flavorful. :)
also, as for energy difference between ground and cuts of meat.. is this something subtle or obvious to you?
It's subtle. I didn't notice it the first time until I ate ground meat for 3 days in a row and then went back to the chuck. I can feel some difference after a day now that I'm looking for it but it's not a huge difference in the short-term.
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Well that ground beef I bought in bulk, it's going dark all the way through now and the taste is getting less pleasant each time.. Is there any point I should worry about eating it? It's in tight-seal bags(~500g each). It's Vacuum-packed but since it's mince it doesn't work properly. The meat is all exposed because it's mince so it's weakened and the bacteria are free to multiply like mad. I'm not sure if it's too much bacteria... Or if not, whether it may be soon... I should have frozen it immediately like it advised =/ I won't get mince again anyway... I don't know how similar it is to bacteria in thawed frozen meat or cooked meat, since it's minced. Anyone help answer?
Thanks.
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Well that ground beef I bought in bulk, it's going dark all the way through now and the taste is getting less pleasant each time.. Is there any point I should worry about eating it? It's in tight-seal bags(~500g each). It's Vacuum-packed but since it's mince it doesn't work properly. The meat is all exposed because it's mince so it's weakened and the bacteria are free to multiply like mad. I'm not sure if it's too much bacteria... Or if not, whether it may be soon... I should have frozen it immediately like it advised =/ I won't get mince again anyway... I don't know how similar it is to bacteria in thawed frozen meat or cooked meat, since it's minced. Anyone help answer?
Thanks.
its fine to eat
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I've eaten hundreds of kilos of mince over the years from supermarkets to butchers across my country, some was vacuum sealed some not, some tasted amazing and others disgusting. Just eat it! you'll live.
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What i really need to know is if when ground beef is made if the blades are grinding at extremely high speeds. I heard when you use a juicer that juices at high speed it can actually damage the chlorophyll.
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Personally, I detest the taste and texture of raw ground beef, though this could have changed since I haven't eaten it in a year or so. The only time I've had a bad reaction to raw food was when I had some of slankers ground beef. I got a fever and felt horrible for about 5 hours within an hour of ingesting it. I definitely can't say whether it was the beef but it doesn't feel right when I eat it and I enjoy real cuts so much better so there's no real point to it. If price is an issue, short ribs and chuck are pretty cheap and about the same price.
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... bulk, it's going dark all the way through now and the taste is getting less pleasant each time.. Is there any point I should worry about eating it? It's in tight-seal bags(~500g each). It's Vacuum-packed but since it's mince it doesn't work properly. The meat is all exposed because it's mince so it's weakened and the bacteria are free to multiply like mad. I'm not sure if it's too much bacteria... Or if not, whether it may be soon... I should have frozen it immediately like it advised =/ I won't get mince again anyway... I don't know how similar it is to bacteria in thawed frozen meat or cooked meat, since it's minced. Anyone help answer? ...
I would not keep meat in a tightly sealed bag if I wanted to keep it good. Meat needs aerobic bacteria to my understanding. Keep it open or loosely tossed into a glass jar. Don't freeze it. Throw it out. Maybe some starving dog will eat it.
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Personally, I detest the taste and texture of raw ground beef, though this could have changed since I haven't eaten it in a year or so. The only time I've had a bad reaction to raw food was when I had some of slankers ground beef. ... If price is an issue, short ribs and chuck are pretty cheap and about the same price.
The first time I tried beef it was from one of the same places AV would literally get from. I got the best ground beef they had (pre-ground because of the advice of my friend who turned me onto raw meat). I also had a bad reaction. I asked AV about it, and he said either metal powder from the grinding machine or residues of cleansers from the counter etc there must have given me the reaction. I don't trust ground meat, and am leery of beef because of this. If I want ground meat I grind it right before I eat.
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... If price is an issue, short ribs and chuck are pretty cheap and about the same price.
I buy 100% grassfed and all the other cuts of meat are always more expensive than the ground meat. It took some time getting used to ground bison and beef, but eventually I did. I started eating ground meats because venison was my favorite raw meat and was only available in sausage or plain ground meat. I liked the ground venison the first time I tried it. Bison was my second favorite meat and that was also only available ground at my market (a supermarket further away has bison steaks, but they are very expensive and I actually prefer the ground meat now--maybe because it's a bit fattier). Now I think I prefer the stronger taste of the grassfed ground beef, though I like to mix it up for variety.
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I prefer Chuck. I get a primal for less than $4 a pound every other week so the price can't be beat. It's also one of the fattiest cuts and is quite flavorful. :)
@Djr or anyone who eats chuck cut,
Since you eat one of the fattier cut, do you still have to eat extra fat (suet, marrow, etc) ? If yes, how much extra fat do you eat?
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@Djr or anyone who eats chuck cut,
Since you eat one of the fattier cut, do you still have to eat extra fat (suet, marrow, etc) ? If yes, how much extra fat do you eat?
I add extra fat.
As mentioned elsewhere I eat roughly 3 parts meat to 1 part fat. I oftentimes use suet but will use regular fat and marrow as well depending on my instincts. :)
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Personally, I detest the taste and texture of raw ground beef, though this could have changed since I haven't eaten it in a year or so. The only time I've had a bad reaction to raw food was when I had some of slankers ground beef. I got a fever and felt horrible for about 5 hours within an hour of ingesting it. I definitely can't say whether it was the beef but it doesn't feel right when I eat it and I enjoy real cuts so much better so there's no real point to it. If price is an issue, short ribs and chuck are pretty cheap and about the same price.
Well I eat slankers raw ground beef yesterday and my stomach is still growling today. I also have a stomach pain and probably going to skip on my meals. I too don't know whether it was due to it being ground, being frozen, or being raw. But I am alive and still learning. :D
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Does anyone eat pork fat? I have access to unrendered lard and fat under the rind but both taste pretty bad.
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Fat from pigs that were raised outdoors is one of the highest sources of Vitamin D by far.
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Makes sense thats why pigs have pink skin and not fur. Same as humans...to be able to synthesize vitamin d from the sun.
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I also could get some of that pork rind. In the supermarket it's called 'Pork rind for crackling'... but they won't sell the lamb/beef MUSCLE FAT 'scraps', I mean COME ON!
If it's just rind from 'normal' farmed pigs, what do people think of that raw for fat..?
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Does anyone eat pork fat? I have access to unrendered lard and fat under the rind but both taste pretty bad.
i've gotten some from the farm i buy from and it tasted really good to me... much softer/creamier than beef... i loved it!
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... supermarket it's called 'Pork rind for crackling'... but they won't sell the lamb/beef MUSCLE FAT 'scraps', I mean COME ON!
If it's just rind from 'normal' farmed pigs, what do people think of that raw for fat..?
No Vitamin D, and deplorable living conditions.
Did you try asking them to give it to you instead of sell it? There's a group called Sustainable Selections that's picking up most of it now.
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Ground beef is pretty much my staple. Mostly for the convenience of eating it - just grab a chunk, chew, swallow. No utensils needed or lengthy time ripping meat off with your teeth which requires two hands and can be messy. Plus it's inexpensive and has good fat content. I Usually get the grass fed stuff from whole foods as I don't really like the vacuumed sealed stuff that local farmers and places that ship use. Maybe it's my imagination but I think the vacuumed sealed is not as good.. especially if left in the bag for a few days or a week. I usually feel a bit 'off' when I eat meat that's been in those bags, while the meat from the counter wrapped in wax paper doesn't give me issues.
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Does anyone eat pork fat? I have access to unrendered lard and fat under the rind but both taste pretty bad.
Yeah, I've tried unrendered and rendered pork suet (lard) and raw bacon. Not a big fan of any of that, but I could probably get used to lard. I prefer aged suet. I do like cooked pork belly. Haven't seen it on sale raw yet.
Ground beef is my staple too (with suet). When I air-dry the ground beef it makes no mess when I eat it with my hands and it gives a bit more of a chew-workout to my jaw muscles. I try to drink even more water with it.
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I Usually get the grass fed stuff from whole foods as I don't really like the vacuumed sealed stuff that local farmers and places that ship use.
Do you know if they freeze it? Cause I got slankers but it's frozen. However, the chances are that slankers is truly 100% grass fed with no additives.
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Do you think that whole foods isn't 100% grass fed?
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How would I know? I don't trust labels nor chain health food stores. I've heard that they add additives to it so that it won't spoil too quick. I still think it's miles ahead of you regular supermarkets meat though.
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Im going to go to my local whole foods soon and ill ask.
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I am presently stacked up on grass fed meat, so it is going to be a while before I'll go down there as it is kind of a drive for me. It would be nice if you also asked if they get their meat frozen and if they add any additives to it. Also try different butchers at different stores if you can. That way the probability of what they're saying is true would increase.
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It would be nice if you also asked if they get their meat frozen and if they add any additives to it.
Most of the meats at the meat counter at the whole foods' arrive there not having been frozen. There are a couple of exceptions for things that don't sell quickly.
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The grass fed ground beef at WF is ground on site and not prefrozen. The one by me seems to pride itself on its 90% lean, which according to nutritiondata.com, is only 50% fat in total (and might be even lower due to it being GF), making it only 10% higher than salmon. 80/20 being more like 70% fat. I don't seem to have problems with it, but thankfully they have whole other cuts which taste better and are healthier for around the same price, although perhaps these are just as lean or more so.
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What? Why are you saying that 90/10 is 50% fat and 80:20 is 70% fat? Isn't 90:10 10% fat and 80:20 20% fat? I don't understand what you mean...
80:20 Meat:Fat is 50:50 Protein:Fat and 33:67 Cal from protein:Cal from fat. Is this what you're talking about?
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right, calories from fat. both the lean and the 10% quantity of 'fat' actually contributing to the calories from fat
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/beef-products/6193/2
basically what I was saying is that for the WF ground beef that I have avalaible anyway, it makes little sense to buy it for its fat content, as I was under the impression that some were saying, but perhaps they get ground with much higher % of solid fat.
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The whole foods stores near me carry a 16% fat version of 100% grass fed which is cheaper than their 9% variety. Some stores carry grass fed + finished on some sort of grain. I'll have to ask next time if the meat is pre-frozen, but I am under the impression it is not. I'd be very surprised if there are fillers or additives
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Whole Foods regular ground beef is organic, but not grassfed. They do carry grassfed for a higher price. I am eating entirely Trader Joe's ground beef. I contacted them about their standards. They do not source from feed lots. The cows are fed grains, corn and grass. It is the freshest 80/20 I've ever eaten.
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klowcarb is there a taste difference between trader joes and whole foods??
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On one of my other threads someone posted a video of a raw vegan expert explaining that when you blend vegetables it surrounds lots of the surface area of the vegetable with oxyegn witch kills 90% of the living nutrients through oxidation. Doesn't this same process happen with ground beef? Lots of air surface? Lots of oxygen?
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Kurite, can you link that video?
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On one of my other threads someone posted a video of a raw vegan expert explaining that when you blend vegetables it surrounds lots of the surface area of the vegetable with oxyegn witch kills 90% of the living nutrients through oxidation. Doesn't this same process happen with ground beef? Lots of air surface? Lots of oxygen?
"raw vegan expert" is an oxymoron :)
Oygen is good for meat; lack of oxygen is bad with meats because it can lead to anaerobic bacteria, which are the deadly ones (like clostridium botulinum). For example, I learned from Tyler that one should make sure to regularly oxygenate high meats. I also learned from him that good bacteria good for meat and for you, and oxygen promotes good bacteria.
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Hello, Kurite Warrior;
I have been present when Aajonus has been asked this question. His answer is that ground beef (and other ground meat) is put through the grinder three times which breaks down gristle and cartilage. That is how they get the hamburger meat to look so uniform. Apparently the gristle and cartilage has value to us in its natural form bit this value is lost during three grindings.
I have asked at several meat counters around town; sure enough, they all grind it three times and will not generally give it to you any other way.
If you have further questions along this line, note that Aajonus may be on a radio show April 9th or 23rd. This interview will accept questions from listeners and will apparently be geared toward the more sophisticated paleo and primal eaters. The details will be posted on the www.WeWant2Live.com site on the page about Aajonus' radio shows, lectures and so on, http://www.wewant2live.com/site/811618/page/937343 (http://www.wewant2live.com/site/811618/page/937343) once it has been finalized.
This upcoming interview by the way is intended for the more experienced paleo and primal dieters.
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Thank you very much Sanborn
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Eating ground beef 99.9% of the time (with raw egg yolks or ghee or lard, all grassfed) and feeling and looking fantastic!
Ground beef is so delicious and I don't want anything else. I'd choose it over ribeye.
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Eating ground beef 99.9% of the time (with raw egg yolks or ghee or lard, all grassfed) and feeling and looking fantastic!
Ground beef is so delicious and I don't want anything else. I'd choose it over ribeye.
Lard is cooked and should be avoided like the plague. At least yours is apparently pastured. What concerns me is that lard is often hydrogenated which is even worse than standard lard.
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When people use the term lard here are they always using it to speak of processed lard? the term basically just means pig fat no? I thought that was what people were using.
from wiki:
Lard is pig fat in both its rendered and unrendered forms.
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Lard can be obtained from any part of the pig as long as there is a high concentration of fatty tissue. The highest grade of lard, known as leaf lard, is obtained from the "flare" visceral fat deposit surrounding the kidneys and inside the loin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lard
I've been eating unprocesed leaf lard/pig suet whatever you want to call it. great texture, kinda absent-but-strange taste.
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limiting oneself to ground beef or even just beef muscle meat from the same source doesn't seem sound to me as a long term strategy, especially if it isn't out of some kind of necessity. Folks can have very positive results (espcially regarding energy at least) on very limited veg raw diets, for many years, and may continue feeling well for longer even in the presence of other symptoms. These are my personal opinions/observations.
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When people use the term lard here are they always using it to speak of processed lard? the term basically just means pig fat no? I thought that was what people were using.
from wiki:
I've been eating unprocesed leaf lard/pig suet whatever you want to call it. great texture, kinda absent-but-strange taste.
Lard was commonly used for cooking and most of the various definitions for lard involve references to rendered/processed pig fat, which is why it's not a favoured term on this forum. Sure, technically, a loose overall meaning can be used to refer to non processed, raw pig fat as lard, but it's best to just call it "raw pig fat" so as not to confuse people.
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limiting oneself to ground beef or even just beef muscle meat from the same source doesn't seem sound to me as a long term strategy, especially if it isn't out of some kind of necessity. Folks can have very positive results (espcially regarding energy at least) on very limited veg raw diets, for many years, and may continue feeling well for longer even in the presence of other symptoms. These are my personal opinions/observations.
I absolutely agree. One of the key things I noticed, years ago, when I read past reports of RVAFers on other raw forums was that consumption of raw organ-meats helped speed up recovery from ill-health at a faster rate, than otherwise. I myself did less well on just raw muscle-meats in the early stages of RPD. So, I keep on recommending a wide variety of raw foods such as raw shellfish, raw wild game, raw berries etc. etc.
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Lard is cooked and should be avoided like the plague. At least yours is apparently pastured. What concerns me is that lard is often hydrogenated which is even worse than standard lard.
Yes, it is pastured, and the ghee I use is grassfed. I do eat both of them cold though, and do not cook any of the beef or egg yolks. I've actually felt more energetic since upping my fat by adding the ghee and lard. It is too hard for me to do otherwise.
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Yes, it is pastured, and the ghee I use is grassfed. I do eat both of them cold though, and do not cook any of the beef or egg yolks. I've actually felt more energetic since upping my fat by adding the ghee and lard. It is too hard for me to do otherwise.
Cooked food is particularly good at affecting the glands re boosting adrenaline etc., giving a false seemingly positive surge in energy, according to AV. He explains that this is why a number of people get energetic highs from eating cooked foods. The catch is of course, that this eventually overburdens the glands, and glandular-related issues then occur at some stage in the future.
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I am currently starving for fat =( For several days.
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Cooked food is particularly good at affecting the glands re boosting adrenaline etc., giving a false seemingly positive surge in energy, according to AV. He explains that this is why a number of people get energetic highs from eating cooked foods. The catch is of course, that this eventually overburdens the glands, and glandular-related issues then occur at some stage in the future.
I am, as always, very curious as to how he comes to these conclusions.
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I am, as always, very curious as to how he comes to these conclusions.
I think AV is right on this point. For one thing, most of the more unpleasant conditions normally linked to old age are also heavily linked to high levels of advanced glycation end products. Plus, old aged people are commonly severely affected by deficiencies in their glandular systems, almost certainly built up after decades on cooked diets. And then there are people like me whose glandular systems have been seriously damaged by things such as pasteurised dairy, over the years. My own hormonal system was seriously screwed up by pasteurised dairy, for example, giving me some temporary energetic highs/boosts of various kinds, but ultimately giving me chronic fatigue etc. in the long run.
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Although I imagine being so sure of yourself is pleasant, I don't think it helps your image or the image of raw paleo dieters at large. Taking AV's word for it, when even in that very post you go on to write about dairy negatively when we all know AV praises it constantly, doesn't seem to make any sense to me. I really think you're taking the scientific articles you've read and stretching it to fit your own conclusions in a way that doesn't do any service to anyone, except maybe people who want to find holes to exploit in your conclusions. What's the point of saying something as if you're 100% sure of it? Are you? How could you be? Even if you did your own research studies you wouldn't be able to be 100% sure.
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Thank you. So many raw vegans online insist I'm addicted to some adrenalin surge from my raw meat. They never tasted raw meat nor saw anyone eat it. I thought maybe it was their experience of eating cooked meat. I have heard AV say nutritional supplements just cause adrenalin surges that the person taking it misinterprets as good health. It makes sense, as supplements are basically cooked.
Cooked food is particularly good at affecting the glands re boosting adrenaline etc., giving a false seemingly positive surge in energy, according to AV. ....
Did you notice he said pasteurised dairy? I don't think AV ever said pasteurised dairy was any good for anything at all. I would think he'd hate pasteurised dairy just like TD. I do understand though, as TD other times often has said AV is wrong about whatever the topic was.
... helps your image or the image of raw paleo dieters at large. Taking AV's word for it, when even in that very post you go on to write about dairy negatively when we all know AV praises it constantly, doesn't seem to make any sense to me. I really think you're taking the scientific articles you've read and stretching it to fit your own conclusions in a way that doesn't do any service to anyone, except maybe people who want to find holes to exploit in your conclusions. ...
... AV is right on this point. For one thing, most of the more unpleasant conditions normally linked to old age are also heavily linked to high levels of advanced glycation end products. Plus, old aged people are commonly severely affected by deficiencies in their glandular systems, almost certainly built up after decades on cooked diets. And then there are people like me whose glandular systems have been seriously damaged by things such as pasteurised dairy, over the years. My own hormonal system was seriously screwed up by pasteurised dairy, ...
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Although I imagine being so sure of yourself is pleasant, I don't think it helps your image or the image of raw paleo dieters at large. Taking AV's word for it, when even in that very post you go on to write about dairy negatively when we all know AV praises it constantly, doesn't seem to make any sense to me. I really think you're taking the scientific articles you've read and stretching it to fit your own conclusions in a way that doesn't do any service to anyone, except maybe people who want to find holes to exploit in your conclusions. What's the point of saying something as if you're 100% sure of it? Are you? How could you be? Even if you did your own research studies you wouldn't be able to be 100% sure.
This is all a bit arbitrary on your part. Sure, no one can be 100% sure about most aspects of science, and food-science is one of the least researched fields out there, but that doesn't mean one can't draw conclusions if there's "merely" substantial evidence in one's favour. All one can do is rely on scientific data and on one's own and others' experience(and mine fits in with AV's claims in this regard along with a lot of RPDers, and my point re older people being particularly susceptible to glandular issues is also relevant as most issues re old age are caused by inflammation with heat-created toxins like AGEs being a major cause of that).
I don't view AV's views as 100% correct and have routinely referred to him as part-charlatan, but, again and again, he has, at times, surprised me over the years with claims which I'd originally thought to be dead-wrong only for me to find out via personal experience(and scientific data) that he was dead right(eg:- AV's claims re "high-meat" or his claim re processed supplements causing an adrenaline rush for 24 hours, giving a false sense of well-being). Now, of course, AV "forgets" to mention the hormonal disruption caused by raw dairy, but that doesn't mean his comments re other kinds of glandular disruption are wrong.
*Another thing:- all I actually said was that "I think" that AV is right on this point. Rather tentative on my part, hardly a claim of certainty.
As regards the scientific studies I commonly refer to, I've been very fortunate indeed. There are masses of studies now done on heat-created toxins, as well as on the beneficial effects of bacteria etc., so that even hardline anti-raw fanatics, like Wrangham on one occasion, have been most non-plussed when asked to explain away the harm done by cooking. So, I really don't need to reinterpret the scientific data available.