Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Hot Topics => Topic started by: the PresiDenT on October 22, 2010, 12:03:30 pm
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i havent smoked for a year but used to be perma fried in my SAD days for a few years. i just was thinkin about how weed has lots of toxins in it and wutnot, but myb that is due to heating it(kinda like food). google does not help with this, as people like to smoke for quick results, and they all say u need heat to activate thc which makes no sense to me. maybe release it from the plant, but what are ur guys thoughts? i wanna be more creative so m contemplating dif things like i am now becoming left handed. so:
1) does organic outdoor weed have toxins raw?
2) any vitamins/minerals in weed (no info on this either from health sites/stoners)
3) high metabolism from weed suggests to me that ur body does not want this stuff inside it : so there fore is it poison?
ty//discsion green flag is waving :D
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Basically every tribe I know of had some sort of drug or hallucinagen and although I would never say its healthy in anyway, at the same time I don't think you have to worry about weed to much. My bro has a friend who is raw vegan and he smokes weed all the time. Are you actually becoming left handed or are you practicing left handedness?
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To me the effect and benefit from smoking organic weed outweighs the small amount of toxins you get.
Why not just make your own hash and eat a bunch of it, then its raw and you're not smoking it, you'll just need more weed for the effect.
You could heat the weed very very slowly in butter for a longer time and less toxins are produced and then eat that butter and the weed, the THC will be released.
You could use a vaporizer, less heat and smoke then straight up smoking.
Most plants and vegetables have some toxins, that doesn't make them unsuitable for consumption.
In the wild, animals like deer love eating weed, and will eat lots of it! ;D
Regarding metabolism, I never get munchies from it for some reason, but then again I only smoke in small amounts.
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My teacher barefoot herbalist mh thinks weed is poison.
That is his opinion as a master herbalist.
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My teacher barefoot herbalist mh thinks weed is poison.
That is his opinion as a master herbalist.
ya thats the conclusion ive come to myslef, but that was made on the SAD diet and under much stress/depression before the use started. Now i am confident, know myself well, have an identity, and got my stuff from my cousin who grew it organically. I am going to try eating like 3grams raw chewed well on a 24hour fasted empty stomach to see the results for one experiment.
Do u have a link to his site/research/thesis' plz? i am quite interested as i respect ur knowledge/sources GS
Also going to try stem tea (only drink the oil on top after its been brewed for a few hours).
And smoke some out of a vap, and pipe on dif occasions, but i am still strongly convinced that its poison. I just dont get how i have such creativity and burst of energy off it. Like i said though, my metabolism speeds dramstically with consistent marijuana use, probly a sign of bad thingsRegarding metabolism, I never get munchies from it for some reason, but then again I only smoke in small amounts.
munchies do not exist for me either, only at first when i started using. I belive its in your head cause ive had before, and u want to keep eating even when ur bloated as fuck. i feel fine when i dont eat, actually better
Are you actually becoming left handed or are you practicing left handedness?
yes i am, it is difficult at first though like ever forign thing, specially because our society makes all stuff (cars, coats, kitchen utensils, computers, vid games, bikes, EVERYTHING) cattered for your right hand dominance. i did not realize this until a few days ago when i taped my right hand to remind myself i now use my lefthand as priority for all fine/any motor skills/tasks. This is because i notcied my left side core is weaker as is the whole left side. i could use this help for sports, but also later realized by doing this my right brain (creative/feeling/unique) will develop greatly, as i already am a very different and interesting to many that know me. i desire full body control as well
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http://www.curemanual.com/2010/09/barefoot-herbalist-mh-gives-his-honest-opinion-on-marijuana-and-all-kinds-of-drugs-and-dope/
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wow he gives it straight. me likes. i feel i still have an emotional piece of the puzzle missing, cause i feel the urge to consume something for distraction unless i am stimulated mentally or physically. i specifically talking about all the tasty SAD food my family eats that taunts/teases me. i know how shitty i feel after i eat it (cause ive snapped once or twice with horible results), but i still want it. does anyone else go thru this?
So basically i think thats y i am pondering the effects of drugs again(even though i already know them first hand) cause i feel tempted/weak at times. Lolz i am kinda ranting at this point and plz dont hesitate to tell me i am crazy Vomit
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There were times when I ate sad and it always, always, always somehow hits me like a ton of bricks.
You probably need to define your cheat.
For example my cheat is cooked meat dish for socials.
Technically it is still paleo. although cooked paleo.
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Anybody tried the NLP technique of recalling/amplifying the effect of a drug? It is based on the fact that the effect is your body's reaction to the drug and you can re-experience it again without taking it.
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Anybody tried the NLP technique of recalling/amplifying the effect of a drug? It is based on the fact that the effect is your body's reaction to the drug and you can re-experience it again without taking it.
I have not done any special techniques to do that. I had Datura "flashbacks" for almost 2 years after drinking it as a tea. Small hallucinations that came and went. I imagine that it could be a maddening experience if you did not expect something like it to happen before you took the drug.
I dont think weed is poison. We have cannabinoid receptors in the brain. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabinoid_receptor
I do however think that abuse is dangerous to physical and mental health, regardless if your drug of choice is food, sex, legal drugs, illegal drugs, another person, love. Even the best things in life can become destructive once you get an addiction.
When you meditate, what you really want to achieve is to trick the brain into releasing "feel good" chemicals. Many drugs releases these "feel good" chemicals to various degrees. I fail to understand why either of the 2 choices to reach other states of mind should be purer than the other.
Deek Jackson made a pretty good video on the subject http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlR0JrNOKIg ofcourse it is "tongue in cheek", but his facts are not entirely pulled out of his arse.
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Marijuana it self is toxic. Doesn't matter whether it's grown organically in the wild or not.
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Marijuana it self is toxic. Doesn't matter whether it's grown organically in the wild or not.
How is it toxic?
"Toxicity can be measured by its effects on the target (organism, organ, tissue or cell). Because individuals typically have different levels of response to the same dose of a toxin, a population-level measure of toxicity is often used which relates the probabilities of an outcome for a given individual in a population. One such measure is the LD50. When such data does not exist, estimates are made by comparison to known similar toxic things, or to similar exposures in similar organisms. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxicity
According to which US Government authority you want to believe, the lethal dose of marijuana is either about one-third your body weight, or about 1,500 pounds, consumed all at once.
In summary, enormous doses of Delta 9 THC, All THC and concentrated marihuana extract ingested by mouth were unable to produce death or organ pathology in large mammals but did produce fatalities in smaller rodents due to profound central nervous system depression.
The non-fatal consumption of 3000 mg/kg A THC by the dog and monkey would be comparable to a 154-pound human eating approximately 46 pounds (21 kilograms) of 1%-marihuana or 10 pounds of 5% hashish at one time. In addition, 92 mg/kg THC intravenously produced no fatalities in monkeys. These doses would be comparable to a 154-pound human smoking at one time almost three pounds (1.28 kg) of 1%-marihuana or 250,000 times the usual smoked dose and over a million times the minimal effective dose assuming 50% destruction of the THC by smoking.
Thus, evidence from animal studies and human case reports appears to indicate that the ratio of lethal dose to effective dose is quite large. This ratio is much more favorable than that of many other common psychoactive agents including alcohol and barbiturates (Phillips et al. 1971, Brill et al. 1970).
http://www.druglibrary.org/Schaffer/library/mj_overdose.htm
The only real danger I see in relation to this, is that in some people in can set off an allready existing psychosis. But nearly all substances has the potential to cause paradoxical and just plain dysphoria. even ones the large majority of us consider harmless. Also, if you smoke it there are other risk factors involved.
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Consuming weed can make you a mental patient for life. Even taking it once. And it can happen every time after having been taking it for a long time. It happened to a guy I used to hang with. He had to go to hospital, didn't recognize anyone anymore. He recovered fully, I don't know if he is normal again. Some never recover.
And that for what "benefit?"
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I do know using the plant as HEMP is industrially awesome.
That industrial use should be brought back.
Historically HEMP was a very good renewable source for many things.
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Consuming weed can make you a mental patient for life. Even taking it once. And it can happen every time after having been taking it for a long time. It happened to a guy I used to hang with. He had to go to hospital, didn't recognize anyone anymore. He recovered fully, I don't know if he is normal again. Some never recover.
What a bunch of bullshit. The only time I've seen drugs alter someone personally was when I had a friend who took an ounce of mushrooms, it turned him schizophrenic overnight. He abused the crap out of mushrooms tho and he didn't get damaged till he took 8 times the normal dose. This was someone who clearly had underlying mental problems as well. I live in California where weed is essentially legal and I have yet to ever meet someone who became a mental patient due to weed abuse and I've met thousands of stoners lol.
Weed is an ok substance imo, definitely better then other stuff such as alcohol and it can probably be used like other hallucinogens to overcome personal/psychological problems. I actually quit the stuff recently, not indefinitely but I def need a long break. When you rely on weed too much it becomes a crutch when you have nothing fun to do and after awhile it seems like there is never anything fun to do besides smoke.
The reason you have to heat weed to get any effects from it is because the THc has to be decarboxylated to become activated. This is achieved through heat exposure.
FYi to all "weed has toxins" crew, it doesn't. Combusted weed has heat created toxins just like every other combusted plant matter, raw marijuana doesn't contain toxins.
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Consuming weed can make you a mental patient for life. Even taking it once. And it can happen every time after having been taking it for a long time. It happened to a guy I used to hang with. He had to go to hospital, didn't recognize anyone anymore. He recovered fully, I don't know if he is normal again. Some never recover.
And that for what "benefit?"
Tell me about it. I have two childhood friends who are actually mental patients now due to weed.
Two very much so normal kids.
I do suspect they've taken mushrooms aswell, I know atleast one of them did. But I know the effect weed can have because I've felt it myself and it's dangerous.
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Whether or not weed, lsd, mushrooms turn you into a mental patient depends upon your own psychology, as Brother mentioned. The number of people poisoned by weed versus the amount of professionals, athletes, artists, musicians, teachers and really people of ALL walk of life is ridiculously minuscule.
There are some people who don't get a good effect from it, instead of peacefulness they feel nervous (and everything the opposite of all the positive feelings one experiences), then those people cleverly choose to not smoke it, smart for them, why would they then. I am close with quite a few folks like that, they don't smoke it....yet a bunch of others who they are friends with do, and the weed non-consumers are not under the impression the weed consumers are poisoned. Every one seems to get along on a mental level, strange to you isn't it.
Yes there is people who develop problems with all sorts of stuff, not even just things you ingest but things you do/habits, you can't always come to the conclusion the particular substance/habit is poison, we all know thats not true.
Some people are prescribed weed instead of true harmful pharmaceutical poisons (we all know what they are) and it helps them more then having to take a huge amount of medications, I wouldn't think of calling it poison.
And a herbalist should know almost any herb can have a bad effect on certain individuals.
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And that for what "benefit?"
Hmm...lets see, I can describe my benefits:
- works well with my creative career
- heightens both right and left brain ability, for example more ability to concentrate when I am programming something in code, and then when I move to an artistic design task it works to benefit the creative/visual side
- similar with physical benefits...increases ability to be calm, sit and think, or meditate...but when I am active it increases endurance and mental experience that you get from movement
- general increased ability to stay positive during bad times
- if I ever get nauseous for whatever reason it a good medication for reducing that, I am rarely nauseous but during those times it helped
- if insomnia ever strikes its a good sleep-inducer (however too much right before bed can make you sleep longer :P )
- it works well when I am in solitude, and in big groups of people interacting socially, it doesn't favor one side or the other
- during times when I don't have it for whatever reason, sometimes up to two weeks, I still function well, I am not in withdrawal or anything which is a nice thing in itself
...it never seems to give me munchies/overeating, I'd have to purposely consume a large amount for that to happen...but I know from many sources that people suffering from anorexia start getting their appetite back when using it which is great...the classical munchies effect is from people who constantly consume more then they are meant to...after all you are not meant to take it like its food, its a powerful herb after all.
thats all can have time to think of right now...but there are other things :)
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I don't know if this was mentioned but I think eating it raw causes some real problems.
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I don't know if this was mentioned but I think eating it raw causes some real problems.
What are they and how are they different from the same problems caused by consuming it not raw?
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My father was very much aware of the effect of drugs during the 60s and 70s, coming across a number of deaths from drugs etc.. He mentioned that taking soft drugs was a key reason for getting subsequently hooked on hard drugs later on. So the issue re effect of soft drugs is really rather immaterial.
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What are they and how are they different from the same problems caused by consuming it not raw?
According to my drug addicted cousin it can make you puke.
@andrew
You might wanna read the last couple of replies on the first page of this website.
http://forum.grasscity.com/incredible-edible-herb/208266-can-you-eat-weed-straight-up.html
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There is a huge ratio of people that smoke weed who do not do "hard drugs", so just because some do hard drugs and smoke weed does not make weed the cause of hard drugs, many things can cause a person to have problems with hard drugs, its highly dependent on the person & their issues & environment. Similarly there is also people doing hard drugs and don't want to touch weed at all. When people start trying drugs weed is the easiest to get your hands on usually, so its accused as a causative agent in a society where so many other issues cause people to have drug problems in general. People always look for an easy answer instead of trying to examine the root of the problem, they are taught to not think and just blame things on what is considered BAD in our society... :'(
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You might wanna read the last couple of replies on the first page of this website.
http://forum.grasscity.com/incredible-edible-herb/208266-can-you-eat-weed-straight-up.html
Interesting thread...the general consensus among self-proclaimed experienced stoners (lol :P) is that eating it is effective but less potent, meaning you need to consume a large amount. Since THC it activates with fat, I wonder if eating it with a large amount of (maybe pure raw fat) will increase the effect from eating it raw, that your stomach acids will use the raw weed with the consumed fat to extract & absorb more of the THC...I will try that experiment next time, I usually buy it in small amount so I don`t want to waste all I have to try this now l) but I will definitely try this next time and add lot of raw fat with it, will be curious to see the results!
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He mentioned that taking soft drugs was a key reason for getting subsequently hooked on hard drugs later on.
All alcoholics start with milk, ergo, milk must lead to alcoholism. We have been given the same song since the 70's, the problem is that it is still not backed by evidence. And boy have we been looking for that evidence. Its not there.
If anything, time and time again it shows that many cross over because of the legal status of the drugs. meaning. To get it, they often have to enter into dialogue with criminals who sell other things as well. A lot of people would never have crossed the line had their pet soft drug been easily avaible. Also, as yuri correctly states, there is a huge ratio of people who do soft drugs, but no hard ones. Most weed smokers I know are like that. Many of them dont even go for alcohol, which is considered a hard drug.
According to my drug addicted cousin it can make you puke.
I have never experienced that ever. I have occationally smoked so much that i felt ill, but I suspect the tobacco I use for joints more than the weed/hash for that one. I have tried to eat as much as 10grams of fresh hash without any adverse effects (besides the ones I wanted).
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Interesting thread...the general consensus among self-proclaimed experienced stoners (lol :P) is that eating it is effective but less potent, meaning you need to consume a large amount. Since THC it activates with fat, I wonder if eating it with a large amount of (maybe pure raw fat) will increase the effect from eating it raw, that your stomach acids will use the raw weed with the consumed fat to extract & absorb more of the THC...I will try that experiment next time, I usually buy it in small amount so I don`t want to waste all I have to try this now l) but I will definitely try this next time and add lot of raw fat with it, will be curious to see the results!
Chew it together with fat, if you take that route. Eating makes it far more potent. When you burn it you destroy most of the THC before it ever leaves the butt of the Rizla paper as smoke. What people often forget when they eat it, is the fat factor. And that because it is so much more potent, the experience is much different from smoking it.
ye olde time favorite here is called "golden chocolate milk". Chocolate milk+butter (prerferbly Ghee for taste and texture)+hash or weed. You can see what is going on in that recipe.
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I have never experienced that ever. I have occationally smoked so much that i felt ill, but I suspect the tobacco I use for joints more than the weed/hash for that one. I have tried to eat as much as 10grams of fresh hash without any adverse effects (besides the ones I wanted).
Not smoking it, eating it raw may cause it. I personally don't use it so I can't say from experience.
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I think I can help a bit here
I use this herb for my crohns disease orally and other auto immune disorders
First off, any drug consumption can be bad, they have various effects that some like more than others,
some people become dependent to anything that might enter their life, sure those people should not abuse drugs.
Even though cannabis is a drug and its psycho active, nothing contained in it has showed toxicity
smoking makes me sick, smoke of any kind is poisonous and even though hemp relieves the symptoms i get from poisoning, i feel like its not worth breathing poisonous gasses with my medecine
thats why I use it infused in fat
this way it acts like a balm that travels down my digestive tube, right on the inflamation
even before knowing which food made me flare up, i stopped my bleeding with hemp
so before you start bashing on this precious plant, i advise you to do some research on cannabinoid receptors
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@oldtimer
I never said that it wasn't a great plant especially for medicine. It helps my bro out with his anxiety a ton. I'm just not someone who likes it or uses it personally. IMO its the safest drug to use as far as conventional drugs go and is wayyyyyy better then getting fat from alcohol.
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I think I can help a bit here
I use this herb for my crohns disease orally and other auto immune disorders
First off, any drug consumption can be bad, they have various effects that some like more than others,
some people become dependent to anything that might enter their life, sure those people should not abuse drugs.
Even though cannabis is a drug and its psycho active, nothing contained in it has showed toxicity
smoking makes me sick, smoke of any kind is poisonous and even though hemp relieves the symptoms i get from poisoning, i feel like its not worth breathing poisonous gasses with my medecine
thats why I use it infused in fat
this way it acts like a balm that travels down my digestive tube, right on the inflamation
even before knowing which food made me flare up, i stopped my bleeding with hemp
so before you start bashing on this precious plant, i advise you to do some research on cannabinoid receptors
i think the problem with marijuana is that the GMO product is gettin known as weed, when the natural plant low in THC and has a level of active ingredients that are even i find weed makes my brain function at a high level nad i am very creative. i just got some stf with my cousin who had it outdoor and clean good seeds. all the weed i used to get that made me effectively crazy was product X indoor usually. so its like saying VEGETABLES are bad or meat, (like vegtarians) when really just the tampered cows in food inc ect are the shit to stay away from, cut natrualy cows are good to eat
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i think the problem with marijuana is that the GMO product is gettin known as weed
There is no such thing as gmo weed....
The wild weed in india is supposedly the most potent stuff around, yogis travel into remote locations to secret spots where they harvest charras(hash) which apparently are borderline psychedelic.
I think its odd that paleo geared eaters are somewhat against drug use when pretty much every single indigenous tribe practices some form of drug ingestion.
The indigenous people of peru say they have received all there knowledge of medicinal plants from ayahusca, medicinal plants that have now been proven by science.
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The way I see it, drugs are just a way to get rid of the pain of thought. Waste of time.
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The way I see it, drugs are just a way to get rid of the pain of thought. wWaste of time.
This isn't true tho, psychedelic drugs(the ones that most cultures indulge in) don't get rid of pain.
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Anything can be used to get rid of the pain of thought, doesn't mean thats JUST what its used for. If a person has problems thinking, regardless or not if they take drugs they will find something to get rid of their pain of thought. There are plenty of thoughtless or ignorant people, or people who can't think for themselves, who do not take drugs.
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I'm proud to be no expert here, and perhaps learned a thing or two about the infusing and so forth, but I think its believed by some that all plants and herbs have toxic compounds, so saying the plant has 0 toxins - particularly when it IS burned it causes noted chemical effects that say sage or parsley do not - seems to leave one wide open to criticism.
Its a legitimate point (I suppose) that most cultures use some kind of hallucinogenic, however 2 things:
1.) the cultures likely also use tobacco products and or alcohol products as well as teas and other things. does not mean these things have no toxic compounds or that they arent addictive or damaging, particularly when they are removed from their medicinal or ritualistic purposes.
which brings me to 2.) which is how many people are participating in some kind of ritual or spiritual vision quest and how many have a bowl on their coffee table just ready for cartoon network?
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Marajana is more prevalent than many people want to believe. In colonial America it was widely used by people such as Thomas Jefferson and George washington. I grew up around marijuana culture and have extremely mixed emotions about it.
I know people who have smoked pot daily for most of their lives and have good health and live a good life, without any real problems from it. I smoked it off and on since I was thirteen, there were times when I considered myself a Rastafarian, and there were times when I became disfranchised with it and around the age of nineteen until last year I quit. (when I got sick at about age 21 I wasn't using any drugs and only drank on occasion, and was trying to lead a healthy life.)
Finally, I found a perfect balance, two or three good tokes out of a dugout each day are all I need in order to keep me lifted. It does seem to help my appetite and overall since of well being better than anyother mind altering herb substance.
If you are already THC adapted then there is no real reason to avoid marijuana, I believe there are positive health effects, that are rarely taken seriously. Studies show that marijuana actually protects the brain from alcohol induced damage in binge drinkers. In people with anxiety or are just be Little uptight, it can be very comforting. For people like me who's brain is always working overdrive, it keeps me mellow and more likeable. Some people who are truly mad can become quit docile and civilized after using it. Some of my most fond memory's have been of meandering around under the influence of that beautiful herb
Put that in your pipe and smoke it
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Finally, I found a perfect balance, two or three good tokes out of a dugout each day are all I need in order to keep me lifted. It does seem to help my appetite and overall since of well being better than anyother mind altering herb substance.
Thats exactly what I do, I put a "crumb" size into my pipe and just take one toke, very little compared to how most people smoke it. It's all about balance, just like with the foods you eat you want to obtain a good balance for you.
It is one of nature most beautiful plants, perfect gift from mother-earth in every way! Most animals love to eat it you know, and they don't get poisoned after they eat it. Blame the abusers not the plant...its kind of sad to blame the poor plant, leave the poor plant alone if you don't like it. You plant-haters, lol, just kidding :P
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Which is how many people are participating in some kind of ritual or spiritual vision quest and how many have a bowl on their coffee table just ready for cartoon network?
More then you think....I know a house full of vegan roommates, they are exceptionally nice, accepting and extremely spiritual people, they all smoke it, they don't own a TV, really, huge house, 8 young adults, not one TV, they are too busy organizing earthly events, great group of people. They are always busy with one thing or another.
I don't own a TV either...you know how many people have a bowl ready for cartoon network? Just as many as the ones that don't have a bowl and are still ready for cartoon network...I know more people that are spiritual and understanding that do smoke it rather then the ones that don't, so what. Its just that every lazy cartoon-watching teenager is also starting to adopt weed, if there was no weed they'd still watch their cartoons, perhaps its better if they are doing that then coke or drinking liquor...
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only the really lazy stoners veg out on TV
I don't own a TV either,
I use it at work and it helps me tolerate being a wage slave. I let my spirit leave, while my body does all the work. Working on boom lifts playing with high voltage cables, reading wiring diagrams doesn't require to much spiritual attention so I stone my higher self and let the lower self do all the grunt work. The duality between stoned spirit and sober mind is what enamored me about pot, being altered, but able to maintain functionality, the best of both worlds.
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you guys have to be the most defensive stoners.
who cares if people have a TV or not or if they are goodhearted and productive spiritual people. The issue is the actual use is far different so you can't justify it by referencing other cultures, other than that who cares. Clearly if you admittedly use it to augment or escape from reality, you arn't eating it for its flavor or nutritional value, so just enjoy and stop trying to rationalize it from that perspective.
if the issue is whether it contains toxic or addictive compounds, the answer is, it does, particularly if you are smoking it (with heat ([duh]). Any heated matter will have an affect on the bodies internal mechanisms like detox. if people could give a shit, that is their business if the 'good' outweighs the 'bad', but it doesn't eliminate the accuracy that even small amounts are harmful from that perspective.
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There is no such thing as gmo weed....
Not free flowing, but ofcourse, where there is monsatan http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/1322.html
The wild weed in india is supposedly the most potent stuff around
Not a chance. I have no doubt that it is potent, but compared to the hybrids grown in close circuit hydroponic systems there are no natural strain that comes even close.
I think its odd that paleo geared eaters are somewhat against drug use when pretty much every single indigenous tribe practices some form of drug ingestion.
I second that
The way I see it, drugs are just a way to get rid of the pain of thought. Waste of time.
O Rly? http://www.miqel.com/entheogens/francis_crick_dna_lsd.html
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you guys have to be the most defensive stoners.
its something worth defending, so why would I not, I could say you are the some of the most defensive non-stoners ;)
if no-one defends it and it is classified as evil we can loose the freedom of having it, we have already lost some of that freedom, would you want me to be prosecuted for it?
So I'll just defend it until you get sick of me and give up, or we could go on forever, I am cool with either way
who cares if people have a TV or not or if they are goodhearted and productive spiritual people.
ummm, you're the one that brought up people on a spiritual journey versus people who are lazy and watch TV all day, I was replying in the scope of the subject
The issue is the actual use is far different so you can't justify it by referencing other cultures
What I said was in reference to my culture - what I am living in today, because thats what relevant to me. And what is wrong with taking example of other cultures? Raw Paleo diet is based on Paleolithic man, to me thats another culture, one we have taken example of once again have we not. What else should I use to justify it other then my experience, people I know in my community, other cultures...should I use those ridiculous anti-weed commercials they show on TV, or studies done by the same people who prescribe drugs for everything, who tell us we should eat pasta and drink pasteurized milk? No thanks.
Other than that who cares. Clearly if you admittedly use it to augment or escape from reality, you arn't eating it for its flavor or nutritional value, so just enjoy and stop trying to rationalize it from that perspective.
You usually don't eat it for nutritional value, its not food, its a herb, and THC is the substance I am trying to absorb when I consume it, I am trying to get vitamins or minerals from it, proteins or carbs, clearly. Its flavor by the way, is amazing, however flavor is a personal matter. Probably the same reason deer will nibble on its buds.
if the issue is whether it contains toxic or addictive compounds, the answer is, it does, particularly if you are smoking it (with heat ([duh]). Any heated matter will have an affect on the bodies internal mechanisms like detox. if people could give a shit, that is their business if the 'good' outweighs the 'bad', but it doesn't eliminate the accuracy that even small amounts are harmful from that perspective.
I partly agree with this. First I don't find it addictive, my use has not increased over time, it has decreased actually, and I am a long time user. There is periods I will have to go on a trip, I am travelling, going on summer vacation or any situation I just don't have it for a long time, I don't feel like I am detoxing or in withdrawal. Its no more addictive then fruit, some people eat too much fruit too it can be addicting.
If you are talking from the perspective that it contains some toxic compounds (mostly when smoked) then, ok, it does. But I find having fear of some small amount toxic compound in an otherwise healthy diet is unrealistic, for some who are weak or ill then ok, but from a healthy perspective thats like being afraid to eat that fresh tomato growing in my garden because its a nightshade. It becomes similar the irrational fear of germs but from an inverse perspective, if you now what I mean.
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I never made that comparison, all I said was: Are people actually engaged in practices of indigenous people? and used the cartoon network to show the vast difference in practices, not that all stoners were a bunch of useless degenerates. Ancient peoples did not use weed to get them through the day, this should be apparent, therefore despite any rationalization, this type of use qualifies as 'abuse' in that sense.
also, if smoking didn't have any toxic effect or addictive quality, you folks wouldn't pride yourself on only using a small amount as it would not matter if it did indeed carry no repercussions. This is pretty textbook type rationalizing for all substance users. As far as drugs having positive effects that outweigh bad, I could earnestly use this excuse to rationalize lots of prescription drugs in additional to other illegal ones (which are really just better highs than pot really), or even things like pornography to suppress loneliness or spousal abuse to get rid of rage. Doesn't mean the overall outcome is good or that there are no consequences of which for (smoking) pot are well documented. The whole 'natural' angle doesn't count either if the substance is altered in any fashion, as even something as basic as oxygen can make one high or fatal given the proper concentration.
I wasn't speaking of detox from the drug, I was speaking of regularly ingesting any type of drug that you heat or is already heated or processed on a regular basis - or even minor things like teas or cooked foods or condiments throughout the day - will be more detrimental to a raw paleo eater than a regular person, even if the actual toxins form these things is negligible. I hear you on wanting to create a balance, but that doesn't mean you cloud the truth of the matter.
as for freedom fighting, I think in the rules here it requires all 'che' shirts left at the front door.
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I never made that comparison, all I said was: Are people actually engaged in practices of indigenous people?
There are many spiritual practices engaged in today that mimic the same reasoning as for why indigenous people had practiced certain things, if you are not aware of that its ok. Not everyone is interested in just cartoons, video games and Britney Spears you know. Just because you see some lazy stoners you judge everyone who consumes it that they must be involved in lazy activities and escaping reality, lol...Who are you to judge that whatever I am practicing mentally when I am using weed is just an excuse. Anything can become an excuse by that reasoning.
Are we engaged in practices of the Paleolithic man? Not really, unless maybe if you live as a hunter gatherer, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't run barefoot, try to eat raw etc...just because times have changed doesn't mean there is no place anymore for something that was obviously once beneficial. That would be sad...
and used the cartoon network to show the vast difference in practices
yes I know thats why you used the cartoon network, its logical you use that example to illustrate it in a negative way, yes unfortunately some people have lost their spiritual side and are rather empty, this actually happens to people that don't smoke weed or take drugs, gasp!
not that all stoners were a bunch of useless degenerates.
Were? You mean now all people who smoke weed are useless degenerates, I feel bad for you if thats the way it is where you are. Or do you use the word "stoner" to illustrate the fact someone is smoking huge amounts of weed and is lazy couch potato, then ok :P
Ancient peoples did not use weed to get them through the day, this should be apparent, therefore despite any rationalization, this type of use qualifies as 'abuse' in that sense.
I do agree if someone can't get through their day without weed perhaps yes they should think about making some positive changes in their life. I for one do not need anything to get me though the day, I love my job and my life, so I use it for a totally different reason...I mentioned I have long stretches without it and one way or another I have no problems getting through a day and enjoy life with or without it.
also, if smoking didn't have any toxic effect or addictive quality, you folks wouldn't pride yourself on only using a small amount as it would not matter if it did indeed carry no repercussions.
I am sorry, I didn't mean to pride myself for using it in small amounts anymore then I "pride" myself in eating fruit or honey in small amounts...I was just stating it thats all because some people do use it in huge amounts and I find it too powerful a herb for that. Its something that requires a little fine tuning to get it right.
I could earnestly use this excuse to rationalize lots of prescription drugs in additional to other illegal ones (which are really just better highs than pot really), or even things like pornography to suppress loneliness or spousal abuse to get rid of rage.
Nah, I have met too many highly intelligent and very healthy (physically as well as mentally) people and too little people who are regularly consuming prescription drugs or "hard" drugs regularly who fit those qualities. Actually almost all the people I know that smoke weed (either often or on occasion) range from health-freak to moderately healthy and stable, and most of the people I know on prescription drugs or addicts of hard drugs do not posses those traits (regardless of whether or not they consume weed)...just like if you ate a raw paleo diet but you sat on the couch 24/7 and took heavy prescription drugs the raw paleo wouldn't do too much/as much for you then ;)
I wasn't speaking of detox from the drug, I was speaking of regularly ingesting any type of drug that you heat or is already heated or processed on a regular basis - or even minor things like teas or cooked foods or condiments throughout the day - will be more detrimental to a raw paleo eater than a regular person, even if the actual toxins form these things is negligible. I hear you on wanting to create a balance, but that doesn't mean you cloud the truth of the matter.
Everyone has their own balance, my balance is raw paleo but I don't claim or want to do it 100%, I just don't need to. If people want to do it 100% (useful when curing a disease I think) then kudos to them. But I don't find it detrimental to consume these negligible toxins, ESPECIALLY on raw paleo, oh well, good for me, I am still achieving balance, and if you are still going to say I am clouding the truth, I think I know my body better then you do...teas don't hurt me either, weird eh, I must be some sort of freak if am continuously eating raw paleo meals but I drink tea, smoke some weed, have a beer with friends on the weekend, and I feel heathy as I get older, wow dude! Trips you out doesn't it ;D ha ha
as for freedom fighting, I think in the rules here it requires all 'che' shirts left at the front door.
Freedom fighting? Oh I see, so when we list reasons for why its safe to eat raw meat for people who say "heeelp I need to justify my way of eating to .....insert name of person who is bitching at you for eating raw meat...." we are not helping them fight for their freedom? Or are you saying we are not allowed to defend anything here that is not raw paleo? Then any threads with references to weed, or tea or dairy should be deleted immediately. Or wait, you want me to read people writing about how weed is so evil and keep my mouth shut, heh heh, no way, if you guys don't like it then by all means, ask the moderator to kick me off this forum, because not being able to do that in the "Off Topic" forum is gay, I thought this is what the Off Topic forum is for...to discuss non-rawpaleo matters, discussion means seeing it from both sides
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1.) the cultures likely also use tobacco products and or alcohol products as well as teas and other things. does not mean these things have no toxic compounds or that they arent addictive or damaging, particularly when they are removed from their medicinal or ritualistic purposes.
Having toxic compounds doesn't necessarily mean something is bad, most shaman highly revere tobacco and believe it is the most important tool they posses. The tobacco indigenous shaman smoke is much more potent in the harmaline chemicals unlike commercial tobacco.
Likewise with alcohol, these are very important beverages to indigenous people. They are not the same thing as Budweiser or Jack Daniels in anyway. Daniel vitalis says when governments go in and interfere with indigenous cultures the first thing they get rid of is there "brew", health decline follows.
2.) which is how many people are participating in some kind of ritual or spiritual vision quest and how many have a bowl on their coffee table just ready for cartoon network?
This is a very good point. It doesn't counter the many beneficial uses these substances may have tho.
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ok yuli, clearly you have the better ability to mince word here.
The only thing I can add is I don't think you understand the meaning of defensive, because it isn't reflecting positively on your argument.
cliff:
you are right, thats why I don't believe using medicines are default bad, only that people should admit they are using drugs/medicines which are exactly the same as other drugs and medicines. there is 0 difference between someone that uses zanex for their anxiety or pot. the pot in the end is indeed more natural and probably safer, but its exactly the same thing. I would actually recommend zanex over pot in most circumstances. Thousands of NA folks can attest there is no difference between alcohol and pot addiction, this doesn't mean some folks can't limit themselves and claim health benefits from a glass of wine with dinner, and it doesn't mean people can't claim smoking pot isn't addictive and doesn't affect their long term health. However, The very reason pot is becoming acceptable AS medicine is because it works exactly the way other drugs work.
Vitalis is a good person to bring up because his perspective is entirely based on balance and tradition. RPD/Primal etc...I believe are processes that go beyond tradition into unraveling and repairing various constructs. It may be true that what he presents represents the way to be the most rounded and 'healthy', or that these beverages and medicines do complete their particular way of life, but they can definitely impact 100% raw diets (which he doesn't see as necessary or necessarily healthy anyway). So in service to this topic within this forum, even though you can't weigh the advantages of the same person smoking or not smoking, you could certainly say the person smoking would be more challenged in regards to healing and progress enough to make someone wish to shed it entirely.
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ok yuli, clearly you have the better ability to mince word here.
The only thing I can add is I don't think you understand the meaning of defensive, because it isn't reflecting positively on your argument.
OK, if you have had enough of me then fine, I shall not taunt you with my word-mincing abilities (which I had no clue you were measuring), or god forbid, being defensive...
And if you would recommend Xanex or other pharmaceuticals over pot then....ummmm...thats a little scary I guess....
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mince words means soften, so yes, you missed the sarcasm there. your last post literally had no content in it other than taking some kind of baby like personal offensive and objection to generalizations I didn't even make. It isn't the first time that constantly bringing up in every post centered around how liberated and comfortable you are from percentages and stereotypes or some neigh invincibility to garbage and so forth doesn't exactly project that impression properly at all and does quite the opposite, just a pointer. As for the pharmaceuticals never being more appropriate than pot, you've obviously never worked with people that have had debilitating problems, so yeah all your 'umms' and so forth do not make me feel stupid. Its precisely the point that pot would be more suitable than other substance for a 'paleo' or natural lifestyle that i'm objecting to, and little else. To the body, drugs are drugs. People can comfortably practice all kinds of crap and remain healthy or gain health, doesn't mean it is ideal or is some kind of mystery drama.
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Mincing can have other meaning, I didn't know which one you were referring to, my English is good but not my first language so I sometimes miss things like that...
I will make sure to not bring up how 'liberated' I feel next time since it angers so many here, I didn't know that...
I'll just keep my childish excitement to myself regardless how good I feel, or else an angry cavemen will come running after me. -X
I didn't know that you striving for something ideal, whatever that may be, I was talking about it in terms of general well-being. Do we actually know what is ideal? If people can practice this "crap" and still gain health, fitness, live a long and happy life and avoid disease that can also be quite ideal, don't you think?
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you guys have to be the most defensive stoners.
setting people straight when they spew the usual horseshit government propaganda or variations thereof, is not being defensive. I find it interresting how people are willing to wholeheartedly accept in dodgy science if it correlates with their pet oppinions.
The issue is the actual use is far different
Different from what? Hindi prophets? those guys eat and smoke so much weed i am surpriced they can sit on the ground without being tied down by ropes. Rastas? who used what how?
which is how many people are participating in some kind of ritual or spiritual vision quest and how many have a bowl on their coffee table just ready for cartoon network?
It is obvious to me that you do not understand how these things work. Again, there is the fucking puritan spirit that dictates that somehow, sitting down doing breathing exersizes and meditating is far superior to doing some drug and watching tele. O Rly?! thats just not how it works. The brains chemicals gets altered either way and the best way to ensure you get the kind of thoughts you want, is to do things that you like to do obviously. If thats tele. well.
Also, I think you may have missed my post on toxicity since you keep saying that it has toxic properties. It does not. One of the key definitions of "toxic" is that it causes injury or death. The only death related to weed that I have been able to find (that is not directly rooted in its legal status and violent criminal gangs such the the police and cripps fighting over it). was a truck driver who hit a wall and had 3 tonnes of hashish come flying from the back and it killed him. This is not toxic, i means that hash is pretty well compressed and hit as hard as a rock.
Too set off allready existing psychological problems is not technically injury, since the injury is allready present. When you smoke it, sure.. cancers and such comes to mind. But we agree that most things you burn, will turn toxic to various degrees.
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Having toxic compounds doesn't necessarily mean something is bad, most shaman highly revere tobacco and believe it is the most important tool they posses.
It should be noted that atleat American natives have apx 300 different kinds of tobacco, probably more. "elephantear" e.g is concidered "tobacco". The vaginia stuff that we smoke. They concidered it poisnous, they used it to punish people to death with. They got wrapped up in tobacco leafes like a cigar and left for dead (nicotine poisoning). I sometoimes wonder if it was payback for the blankets. "oh yeah...thanks for the blankets and fire water sir's, here have some of this shit"
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what about vaporizers, they heat the herb only enough to vaporize the THC oil and leaves the unburned (a better option?)some people like myself don't use enough to worry about smoke damage, but the hardcore potheads may save themselves from lung damage if they use vaporizers
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what about vaporizers, they heat the herb only enough to vaporize the THC oil and leaves the unburned (a better option?)some people like myself don't use enough to worry about smoke damage, but the hardcore potheads may save themselves from lung damage if they use vaporizers
I agree. I think that if people care about health and insist on inhaling the THC at the same time, there are only one other option than vaporizers. water spray (like those you get for colds) containing THC.
Since science time and time again demonstrates that there is a 100% mortality rate on earth. I just dont worry too much. I would rather die in a blaze than wither away in my good health in old age. try and ask an honest elder what it is like to get old (70+). I have never heard another answer than "it sucks. all of it with the exception of the fruits of our loins, what did you expect? Your drive goes away, your face start to sag, you get forgetsome. what part of this is desirable?".
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Well, plenty of potheads live past 70 and seem to still love life; Willy Nelson, Cheech, and Chong.
From what I have seen marijuana when not used excessively has little effect on overall life span ,when compared to other drugs. Actually most of the older hippies I know, that just use pot seem to be happer and saner than the majority of other senors. The whole killing braincell propaganda is an outright lie. In most people THC has a preservative effect on the brain,Even if it slows down some mental ability,it does not damage,and by relieving stress it actually prevents stress induced premature aging for those who build up enough THC in the body.They may Be burnedout but they are mellow and less stressed so the pros outweigh the cons ,FROM WHAT I SEE
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Well, plenty of potheads live past 70 and seem to still love life; Willy Nelson, Cheech, and Chong.
Good point. I stand corrected. I would love to grow old like any of those men you mention (Except for the fame, I would loathe that. But the rest of it)
Actually most of the older hippies I know, that just use pot seem to be happer and saner than the majority of other senors.
I am not hostile to this idea. But I have never sat down and observed the older smokers I know. But my gut reaction was "yeah...sounds familiar"-
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setting people straight when they spew the usual horseshit government propaganda or variations thereof, is not being defensive. I find it interresting how people are willing to wholeheartedly accept in dodgy science if it correlates with their pet oppinions.
What is apparent is that you guys can't even comprehend that perhaps people here have actual experience with marijuana, are not puritanical otherwise in their life, likely don't listen to much of what the government says about health and still and actually have legitimate scientific, social, and experiential data to back up their thinking. And my retort to these basically insulting remarks would be how much actual experience do you have of following a diet free of regularly ingested heated foods and substances, to know that it doesn't carry its own advantages or that yours has any detriments? who is the one with propaganda? The claims that people are somehow ignorant and to be dismissed based on conventional ideas, is fairly lame here in this forum. Perhaps have this conversation with mom and dad if you want to feel lofty.
I'm glad you can at least own up to the fact that while we are in the right to choose how we define spirituality, that people largely are divorced from conventional traditional peoples' experiences.
one major note, toxic does not mean injury or death. so you are incorrect there. the leaves on a stalk of celery are mildly toxic, and nearly impossible to ever OD and die from. Does eating them jeopardize my health in any way whatsoever? probably hard to measure, but this does not alter the definition of toxicity or the definition of ideal. Ideal has one meaning and even though sometimes it can be as arbitrary for some their ideal would say celery itself is not healthy or necessary for health. This doesn't change that the leaves scientifically contain known toxins particularly to the liver. Also ironically, despite the fact that people keep referencing the plant w/o smoke, the most vocal are also actually smoking it, which undeniably has more toxic compounds then many other herbs when heated, and with a good ammount of research pointing to more compounds then to conventional tobacco cigarettes.
I also don't see how Rastas have anything to do with anything, as the concept is less than 100 years old and like some folks here tries to place pot as a very naive backlash to western civilization that is anything but. Pot is a drug that makes some people feel good, it can't make you see truth that isnt already there, believe me I tried. You are not a hindu prophet, so that also does not defeat what I said as they do not use the drug casually or indiscriminately divorced of their practice as do not other people in their society that are not prophets to my knowledge. That does not make your uses 'bad', it just falls far closer in the category as to why people use painkillers, and alcohol, and sniff paint than it does communion wafers, sorry. I agree with you it doesn't matter if people are watching TV or making an alter to Betelgeuse because they are still basically getting high.
What I find most troublesome is pretty much all folks here are bouncing back and forth between things to find a reason why weed somehow is an exception and can be part of a healthy diet. Without changing a healthy diet to 'whatever works is therefore healthy' (which is certainly ok I guess per the individual) this is not technically correct. If 's a vice plain and simple. Whether many folks in the end will be healthier as a whole person with a few vices is not surprising to me or shatters my puritanical viewpoint.
as for tobacco, I really wouldn't venture there unless you want to bring along opium poppies and the coca plant, which people here have already tried to distance marijuana from despite the fact that yes, they all grow.
[typo]
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What is apparent is that you guys can't even comprehend that perhaps people here have actual experience with marijuana
Quite obviously they dont. And those that do, are generally positive towards it. But perhaps I was reading another thread than you are?
And my retort to these basically insulting remarks would be how much actual experience do you have of following a diet free of regularly ingested heated foods and substances, to know that it doesn't carry its own advantages or that yours has any detriments?
I dont see how it is relevant. But quite a bit actually. both as vegan and raw vegan (fad). I just soon realised that it was a clear err because i needed supplements to feel well. it is not the length of the period you spend on gaining knowledge that dictates how well you understand. Some may realise something in mere minutes where others take years.
who is the one with propaganda?
Well lets see. Unbacked claims of toxicity for starters....I did not put that out there.
I'm glad you can at least own up to the fact that while we are in the right to choose how we define spirituality, that people largely are divorced from conventional traditional peoples' experiences.
or overinterpret them. like neoshamanism. It is a completely alien concept that some of our ancestors may just as well have used drugs as boredom relief as much as any spiritual implication the drug may have. Nay say they. I say...absofuckinglutely. Just look at us. We love all highs, but more so, we love to dictate others highs.
one major note, toxic does not mean injury or death. so you are incorrect there.
toxic
1. Of, relating to, or caused by a toxin or other poison: a toxic condition; toxic hepatitis.
2. Capable of causing injury or death, especially by chemical means; poisonous: food preservatives that are toxic in concentrated amounts; a dump for toxic industrial wastes. See Synonyms at poisonous.
The first definition is moot since it attempts at explaining the word with itself. So, we look at number 2.
This doesn't change that the leaves scientifically contain known toxins particularly to the liver. Also ironically, despite the fact that people keep referencing the plant w/o smoke, the most vocal are also actually smoking it, which undeniably has more toxic compounds then many other herbs when heated, and with a good ammount of research pointing to more compounds then to conventional tobacco cigarettes.
This sounds like unadultered nonsense to me (or state propaganda). What hepatotoxic compound are you arguing is found in weed? We agree on the smoking bit except the cigarette comparison. it was a jaded study from the get go. When you set out to "prove something right" instead of setting out to find what is true, you have allready failed before you ever got started.
What I find most troublesome is pretty much all folks here are bouncing back and forth between things to find a reason why weed somehow is an exception and can be part of a healthy diet.
by all means, Ignore Cliff's anecdote. It is as far as i am informed not unique.
as for tobacco, I really wouldn't venture there unless you want to bring along opium poppies and the coca plant
but I do, these drugs most certainly have their uses. Take a good long look at the litterature on it. Then please reconcider the above. While I agree that cocaine is shit and fits the "Is Toxic" bill perfectly, coca, and the coca plant are wonders of chemistry when it comes to the human organism. If I was to take any of the drugs on the above (not that i would) tobacco would be my last choice based on toxicity alone.
Perhaps have this conversation with mom and dad if you want to feel lofty.
was that your high horse that ran off without you there buddy?
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how can you not see that it is relevant? you have never had any experience whatsoever if what I am talking about, yet you are defying that what you are doing has any problems based on me being unable to convince you with information and statistics or other experiences? basically you are saying that your experiences and those of your peers are enough to make you believe what you want to believe.
as I already stated oxygen is very capable of causing injury or death but is not considered toxic in it of itself, all plants on the other hand carry some manner of toxins and this is wildly agreed upon. People are running in circles with this one. One question: Do you or do you not smoke pot or otherwise use refined drugs not picked and consumed directly from the plant? if you do, then stop arguing about the plants please.
its clear that you arnt really in the community of people here I care to argue with further because you seem to enjoy alot of drugs and dont seem to care much about actual differences in health as a general rule as long as you get yours. The issue for the most part is whether pot gets some kind of pass over other substances, which it doesn't. If your philosophy is that people can do whatever they want and nothing matters, then this isn't proper ground for argument.
as for a high horse, your comment was totally insulting to others intelligence and implying that all other people had to be ignorant or wrong or squares basically, while my previous point was not.
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how can you not see that it is relevant? you have never had any experience whatsoever if what I am talking about, yet you are defying that what you are doing has any problems based on me being unable to convince you with information and statistics or other experiences? basically you are saying that your experiences and those of your peers are enough to make you believe what you want to believe.
re-read the thread as many times as you need to.
Do you or do you not smoke pot or otherwise use refined drugs not picked and consumed directly from the plant? if you do, then stop arguing about the plants please.
Because if you ever eat refined sugar, you have no right to an oppinion on apples. Ok....works for me.
as for a high horse, your comment was totally insulting to others intelligence and implying that all other people had to be ignorant or wrong or squares basically, while my previous point was not.
if you say so
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Meet Fulla Nayek-
(http://www.typos.com.cy/media/headline_image/Reportaz92/re_oldwoman_smoke.jpg)
She lived to 120 and smoked a fat ass marijuana joint pretty much everyday of her life, along with strong palm wine.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article73930.ece
Doesn't prove much but interesting none the less.
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maybe you could actually answer the questions seriously. and perhaps acknowledge your own hypocrisy here, and your referencing of rastas in context of traditional peoples and other wormy semantic arguments. please actually for once provide the hard evidence in what you are saying before labeling everything as propaganda and conventional thought, as refraining from doing so is definitely fulling my lazy babylonian-minded stereotype. I don't think there is in fact a person here who's single variable in removal from a otherwise 100% healthy diet is marijuana, so I believe that experience does not count as a data comparison even anemically.
Because if you ever eat refined sugar, you have no right to an oppinion on apples. Ok....works for me.
no, in fact people that eat refined sugar have no idea what is like usually to not eat refined sugar and to experience another kind of fuel processing or health. I'm certain of this because i've experienced both. Seems like everyone here wants to turn this conversation into some kind of perfectionism thing which it isn't.
I already said:
What I find most troublesome is pretty much all folks here are bouncing back and forth between things to find a reason why weed somehow is an exception and can be part of a healthy diet. Without changing a healthy diet to 'whatever works is therefore healthy' (which is certainly ok I guess per the individual) this is not technically correct. If 's a vice plain and simple. Whether many folks in the end will be healthier as a whole person with a few vices is not surprising to me or shatters my puritanical viewpoint.
clearly you do not see weed as an exception and embrace all manner of substances and foods as long as they support what you want and therefore there us no ground to criticize these things or decide officially what is right. (not only have I read all of this thread but have read and remembered other threads with these same 'perfectionism' type arguments) How can I cater any more to this concept? There needs to be a resolution as to whether something is conducive to health or is not. You can add whatever subjective stuff up to make a whole, but that doesn't take away from the fact that the substance is in itself harmful, particularly when people are clearly using it AS a substance, and not medicinally or in traditional and very occasional circumstances.
If people want to have a conversation strictly about unheated plants as temporary treatments for various ailments (which probably was the intent of the OP) then that is worth pursuing. However, the fact that people want to rationalize all kinds of behaviors and cut corners yet claim 'all natural' as part of that conversation, just proves that these things go way beyond any indigenous use and into modern addictions and abuse.
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lol
marijuana's bad, mkay!?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCUkNTH0vqc&feature=related
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maybe you could actually answer the questions seriously.
what questions. Your postulates are not questions and unlike you I give refference to starting points (such as an entry on canabinoid receptors etc) when I have them avaible. what more exactly do you feel i should do?
please actually for once provide the hard evidence in what you are saying before labeling everything as propaganda and conventional thought, as refraining from doing so is definitely fulling my lazy babylonian-minded stereotype. I don't think there is in fact a person here who's single variable in removal from a otherwise 100% healthy diet is marijuana, so I believe that experience does not count as a data comparison even anemically.
Then how come you keep refering to completely outdated propaganda?
You can add whatever subjective stuff up to make a whole, but that doesn't take away from the fact that the substance is in itself harmful, particularly when people are clearly using it AS a substance, and not medicinally or in traditional and very occasional circumstances.
based on what findings exactly? The chemical profile of the plant, even including THC does not suggest harm in the sense that harm is usually used in the context. When you evaluate harm, you have to have something to compare that harm to. What is your point of compare?
However, the fact that people want to rationalize all kinds of behaviors and cut corners yet claim 'all natural' as part of that conversation, just proves that these things go way beyond any indigenous use and into modern addictions and abuse.
I both agree and disagree with this. I agree because obviously it is true! I disagree because it is not the whole picture IMO. I think it was never anything else and a few got something extraordinary out of it. The large majority just got off their face for a handfull of hours. Then as well as now. Im starting to suspect that our disagreement may stem from a situation in which we do not take starting position for the conversation at the same place. I dont think we really disagree that much. Thank you for clearing this up.
*)A couple of funny links in the context of "natural or not".
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Animals-on-Drugs-41500.shtml
http://www.themercury.com.au/article/2009/06/25/80825_fun-weird-news.html
**)A new take on risk assessment in relation to drugs in the ABC class system. Alcohol and tobacco being the point of compare;
http://www.scribd.com/doc/16393904/How-Bad-Are-Illegal-Drugs-Lancet-Study I obviously do not agree in its entirety because I tend to look more at the chemistry involved and less on such aspects as loss of social life, since i believe they have deeper drivers and in those cases the drugs are the symptom. What I feel "the other" side is arguing, is that this is always the case. But if that is so, then this line of reasoning should apply equally to all kinds of boredom relief that to some or all have some potential for hazard, even if it is not directly but as a byproduct. It is however refreshing and I know it is only meant as a point of entry for a debate that needs to be taken betwen the legal and health branches of government.
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what questions. Your postulates are not questions and unlike you I give refference to starting points (such as an entry on canabinoid receptors etc) when I have them avaible. what more exactly do you feel i should do?
how can you not see that it is relevant? you have never had any experience whatsoever if what I am talking about, yet you are defying that what you are doing has any problems based on me being unable to convince you with information and statistics or other experiences? basically you are saying that your experiences and those of your peers are enough to make you believe what you want to believe.
I don't think this is postulating. I'm coming from both sides of experience and have no connection to any governing body or enterprise that would profit from any of this, so my question was what other than my experiences and basic facts (many of which you have already conceded to) are needed to convince you of the possibility that from a purely chemical and biological level -and discounting any lifestyle bonuses - that ingesting marijuana (smoking in particular) produces as at least slightly negative 'ash' on the bodies health. Seeing since you want to use your own definition of toxic that is different than mine, if you care to you would need to convince me that any amount of the substance could be ingested without any negative effects not needing to include death, and please no jokes about choking on meats or crapping to death from fruits.
because I said all plants have toxins, and heat causes more toxins this is some kind of governmental propaganda? I don't understand what propaganda you are referring to. The hypocrisy is you've already admitted that applying heat causes cancerous compounds, yet you claim to do it anyway and are still trying to make a credible argument in discussing differences between a completely healthy diet, and one that takes a subjective direction despite only having experience of the latter. This in addition to typical casual criticism of diet that just about all non-interested people make that everyone gets old and dies and why bother with the little stuff or whatever, distorts any sincere discussion of how even minor kind of heat related toxins would slow or stop productive healing on a raw food diet.
Like with ALL the other conversions on this forum, citing HGs or any other modern person that 'does just fine' is totally unacceptable when discussing the minutia of these kinds of things as we can prove or disprove pretty much any concept or persons experience by citing any other person who happens to do whatever or the opposite. The yogis in particular are a very impressive 'people' but that doesn't mean we follow what they do with diet to a T or at all, or support the idea that if we did we would get their results.
Similarly, as for whether these same 'ancient' people also abused substances, I have doubts but that doesn't help your argument, as generally according to raw food type theories...most behaviors after cooking/heating/agriculture and lock-and-key type ownership have many fundamental flaws in character and in turn create new problems. artificial situations, and poor habits.
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**)A new take on risk assessment in relation to drugs in the ABC class system. Alcohol and tobacco being the point of compare;
http://www.scribd.com/doc/16393904/How-Bad-Are-Illegal-Drugs-Lancet-Study I obviously do not agree in its entirety because I tend to look more at the chemistry involved and less on such aspects as loss of social life, since i believe they have deeper drivers and in those cases the drugs are the symptom. What I feel "the other" side is arguing, is that this is always the case. But if that is so, then this line of reasoning should apply equally to all kinds of boredom relief that to some or all have some potential for hazard, even if it is not directly but as a byproduct. It is however refreshing and I know it is only meant as a point of entry for a debate that needs to be taken betwen the legal and health branches of government.
It really doesn't matter if it is 'always the case', because as as you say all manner of activities have the potential to be destructive. Its still proper to say that alcohol is not healthy, that computers and cell phones aren't healthy, that staying up late is not healthy, that loud music is not healthy, that mixing food is not healthy and even certain kinds of exercise is detrimental long-term and on and on. Its up to the individual to decided how much this stuff matters TO THEM and what they ultimately enjoy and can navigate their life the best, but as you point out there is no arguing with the chemistry and observed effect of these things on the body and this is independent of lifestyle and easier to debate conclusively.
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how can you not see that it is relevant? you have never had any experience whatsoever if what I am talking about, yet you are defying that what you are doing has any problems based on me being unable to convince you with information and statistics or other experiences? basically you are saying that your experiences and those of your peers are enough to make you believe what you want to believe.
I saw this, but I am not sure what you are on about. What information and statistics is it that has been presented that should have convinced me? We have all shared anecdotes. Only good samaritan, Kurite and I, have entered anything into the debate that were not our own opinions. Even if we shared those opinions.
Seeing since you want to use your own definition of toxic that is different than mine
Is there another dictionary I should use?
I don't understand what propaganda you are referring to.
I thought you reffered to this http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071217110328.htm
These findings come and go and dependent on whom you ask and what their own interrests are, it is one or the other. The supposed hepatotoxicity of weed. The cancer link is from smoking alone, but I have agreed the whole time that heat changes everythings structure, it is no longer the same thing.
The hypocrisy is you've already admitted that applying heat causes cancerous compounds, yet you claim to do it anyway and are still trying to make a credible argument in discussing differences between a completely healthy diet, and one that takes a subjective direction despite only having experience of the latter.
It would be hyporisy if I did not openly admit it. I agree entirely that smoking is a bad idea, regardless of what is in the pipe. In this case i argue that the smoking itself, is far more harmfull than the substance itself.
This in addition to typical casual criticism of diet that just about all non-interested people make that everyone gets old and dies and why bother with the little stuff or whatever, distorts any sincere discussion of how even minor kind of heat related toxins would slow or stop productive healing on a raw food diet.
you got that upside down. Diet is a pretty major fact in your health. A basic concern. I think you can get away with a lot of silly stuff if you have the basics nailed down. Also, i think there is a cultural misunderstanding going on here. When someone say that there is in fact a 100% mortality rate, why assume anything else than tongue in cheek? Did you actually think that I would eat raw meat and at the same time not give a shit?
Like with ALL the other conversions on this forum, citing HGs or any other modern person that 'does just fine' is totally unacceptable when discussing the minutia of these kinds of things as we can prove or disprove pretty much any concept or persons experience by citing any other person who happens to do whatever or the opposite.
This is what I dont understand. I agree with you on this, but I have been providing everybody with starting points to the science of this particular drug (how it interacts with the brain, its actual toxicity). So it is not just anecdotes from old. My argument is this. Drugs is a natural part of the world. Organisms will use any means to expand their pleasure. Metabolisms are not alike. A cow can eat 50 pounds of weed in a setting and be just fine. In fact, they like it. I think any of us would be rendered comatose given the same amount of THC. So when we see animals do something genuinely odd, and apparently at odds with the idea of self preservation, it may be because they are just tripping balls and wasting time simply because it is available.
Similarly, as for whether these same indigenous people also abused substances, I have doubts but that doesn't help your argument, as generally according to raw food type theories...most behaviors after cooking/heating/agriculture and lock-and-key type ownership have many fundamental flaws in character and in turn create new problems. artificial situations, and poor habits.
When animals time and time again seek out dope why is that? Would reason not dictate that if the animal felt bad, it would never go near eg. poppies again? Why do they keep comming back for more once they have found a spot where it is available? I know that in a natural setting there would never be so many poppies in one place, but it does not change that the animals, once it is made available to them, go on a binge. Sled dogs will willingly eat a poisonous shark when it is catched. Fucks them right up. In parts of Africa there is "the drunk season" in which certain fruits ferment. Apes, Elephants and everything in between go on an alcohol fuelled craze. One time is accident, two times coincidence, three times and you know there is something to it or the enemy is in the camp.
*)McKenna, suggested that drugs played a key role in our development of language and perception of social justice. I am not buying into that wholesale, but I can see some reason in it and i think the following situation is hilarious;
very early man out eating whatever could be plucked or killed, eats shrooms or some vine and states ;"holy shit Bob, this stuff here is just....pheeeeew" and thus language was born.
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I saw this, but I am not sure what you are on about. What information and statistics is it that has been presented that should have convinced me? We have all shared anecdotes. Only good samaritan, Kurite and I, have entered anything into the debate that were not our own opinions. Even if we shared those opinions.
Is there another dictionary I should use?
It would be hyporisy if I did not openly admit it. I agree entirely that smoking is a bad idea, regardless of what is in the pipe. In this case i argue that the smoking itself, is far more harmfull than the substance itself.
you got that upside down. Diet is a pretty major fact in your health. A basic concern. I think you can get away with a lot of silly stuff if you have the basics nailed down. Also, i think there is a cultural misunderstanding going on here. When someone say that there is in fact a 100% mortality rate, why assume anything else than tongue in cheek? Did you actually think that I would eat raw meat and at the same time not give a shit?
This is what I dont understand. I agree with you on this, but I have been providing everybody with starting points to the science of this particular drug (how it interacts with the brain, its actual toxicity). So it is not just anecdotes from old. My argument is this. Drugs is a natural part of the world. Organisms will use any means to expand their pleasure. Metabolisms are not alike. A cow can eat 50 pounds of weed in a setting and be just fine. In fact, they like it. I think any of us would be rendered comatose given the same amount of THC. So when we see animals do something genuinely odd, and apparently at odds with the idea of self preservation, it may be because they are just tripping balls and wasting time simply because it is available.
jeez man, again, just answer the questions at hand. the definition of toxicity is not correct with how raw food folks use it in the very least. go look up the term 'raw' and see what it specifies in the dictionary that would meet our standards...really. get over the semantics and just prove to me that the same individual before and after ingesting weed is either exactly the same or better, hence no toxic effects. What statistics do I need to present that people will actually read? Plants have toxins, this information is everywhere.
it isn't hypocrisy exactly that you smoke yet cite the problems of smoking, this could be true of any person that doesn't conform 100% to any system. The hypocrisy is I'm discussing something very specific (how smoking effects someone on a raw paleo diet) and you are going with your opinions on health from already voicing the perspective that these things do not matter.
we can agree to disagree about what constitutes health, but again, you still arn't the one on both sides of having the experience. perhaps maybe you could do an extended trial. Not everyone that eats raw meat even believes in detox, so you could eat all the raw meat and hash in the world and still disagree with my concept, probably quite a few sober people here do.
the issue entirely would be availability and regular consumption as with the same way fruits and other things are indeed discussed int he forum. virtually no difference there. Just like you can argue animals will gorge on fruits or whatever, just doesn't work. Weed is entirely unnecessary for humans and animals to function, everything else is purely fantasy and opinion on what life's meaning is an other unquantifiable stuff.
its like with your processed sugar. Its completely unnecessary for life, but might bring pleasure to someone and one can -sorta- find it in nature. Its always bad for you no matter even if you can moderate it into your diet, have the ability to go without it for periods of time, or can lace indecipherable amounts in someones food and they might never tell the difference.
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get over the semantics and just prove to me that the same individual before and after ingesting weed is either exactly the same or better, hence no toxic effects.
http://scienceblogs.com/scientificactivist/2009/04/thc_gives_cancer_cells_the_mun.php
etc..
There are a lot of possitive effects of THC, and there are some that has the potential, in some people, to cause dorment psychological problems to manifest. This is not bad in itself. But panicking and getting people on heavy GABA depressants only seem to prolong this state. IF we go by the way you say toxic is used here, then I still do not find any real concern beyond the one allready expressed and a potential (again in some people) for dependency. but this is not an indicator of toxicity by itself and it should be seen in the light that, all substances has the potential to cause anaphylactic shock in the right setting.
it isn't hypocrisy exactly that you smoke yet cite the problems of smoking, this could be true of any person that doesn't conform 100% to any system
The human creature can be so irrational. However there is no direct link between understanding something and conforming entirely to it. So your observation is sharp, and correct. I do not. I am not a subscriber to ultimate truths.
we can agree to disagree about what constitutes health, but again, you still arn't the one on both sides of having the experience. perhaps maybe you could do an extended trial
I am open to suggestions. I love discovering. I will say though, that I have a slight problem with this line of reasoning since taken to its logical conclusion it suggest that for an example "a detective can't fully understand his proffession unless he himself becomes a murderer/criminal" I dont believe that direct experience and understanding are always connected. Prove me wrong, what should I do?
Weed is entirely unnecessary for humans and animals to function, everything else is purely fantasy and opinion on what life's meaning is an other unquantifiable stuff.
hold your horses pardner. I have never claimed that weed or any drug is a vital part of existance. I use tems such as boredom relief, you used medicine, im down with that too.
ts like with your processed sugar...
I buy the analogy, but I do not think it apply like that.
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well, ironically you are venturing into the psychological and social, i'm talking purely physical. Like I said, even celery leaves can be toxic to the liver. here is a non-reputable source with other herbs that are damaging to the liver and some 'folk' remedies which have the same effect. http://www.liverdisease.com/harmfulherbs_hepatitis.html
There is no way marijuana eaten in any quantity does not have a negative physical affect on the body - cellularly in the body or the brain - so I'll just stop baiting you on that. Certainly as you admit smoking it can easily be carcinogenic, far more than burning sage or other herbs which without any other Google click leads me to believe there are more toxic compounds to begin with in weed than sage.
its not about the detective being a murderer, its about the detective actually having solved a crime before. Its not the person watching Mystery on PBS throwing out ideas from the armchair. how is it even remotely possible to have ideas about the importance of including or excluding things from your diet based on something you've read or thought about alone? How is holding on to weed or a small amount of this or that any different from someone who sees no reason of giving up any other vice or comfort if they feel ok? How would they know how they would feel without it? The analogy speaks to that quite well I believe as one can argue about the benefits of moderation till the cows come home off your secret stash. I already agreed very much about the validity of choosing vices, and agree with Daniels' opinions on tradition as a solution for most folks. Unfortunately, when discussing the absolute of it, it really is similar to sugar or any other thing we can opportunistically reach at for our own pleasure.
I didn't mean to imply that you thought weed was an essential part of life, I just said it is entirely un-essential and therefore unnecessary for regular use, in much the same way we describe other things that exist in nature that might not be necessary components of health, despite their 'persistent' occurrence.
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What a bunch of bullshit.
No, your post is. This actually happened. He didn't have any history of psychological problems. There is no way of telling who is predisposed to this and who isn't.
Weed is an ok substance imo,
Of course, that is undeniable evidence that it is harmless.
defand it can probably be used like other hallucinogens to overcome personal/psychological problems.
Ridiculous. It destroys peoples life. Many become apathetic and spend their days at home playing videogames and TV. I've seen it happen enough.
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Why is there not so much bitching about people who once in a while eat some cooked food?
KD you consume cooked food on occasion, as do many others, why is that....it's not ideal, obviously there is reasons why healthy, raw-eating people decide why or why not a certain substance, whether perceived toxic or not by the community, the propaganda, or science is of value to them.
Why would you try so hard to prove that its of no beneficial value to anyone whatsoever unless you have some personal gripes with people who have different experiences...alternately I am not saying weed is beneficial for everyone and everyone should smoke it to at least some degree.
Saying that drugs are drugs, and a toxic substance is a toxic substance is like saying food is food. Yes but clearly there are differences.
The fact that some people develop psychological problems, that it may cause hepatitis or some other fear has no effect when you make your own educated decision. There are too many other reasons people will get psychological issues and hepatitis etc. and some of those things are worth avoiding but some, are beneficial to healthy people. So who cares?
Obviously there is a way that someone can learn to enjoy these so-called "vices" at an accepted level for their system and still have remarkable health.
The original question was if there is a way to consume weed that is less toxic then smoking it, and the answer is yes there are ways. The answer has been answered. Whether that substance that can be consumed in a least toxic way should be taken is completely up to the individual, and if they want to base their answer on simple generalizations thats their issue.
Hans I am sorry for what happened but saying that "Many become apathetic and spend their days at home playing videogames and TV. I've seen it happen enough." is not a good reason, I could similarly say "Many I know who use it are intelligent and very involved people, I have seen it enough"....Just because someone didn't have a history of psychological problems doesn't really prove anything either. No there is no way of telling who is predisposed to what, that does not mean that the substance that apparently is the cause is actually going to have the same effect on everyone. There are many example even with diets that what is beneficial for one individual causes or exasperates certain problems in another.
Talking about overall health and well-being on a purely "physical" level is pointless in this thread because we already know that it is not consumed for its vitamins and nutrients. We all know there are other aspects to well-being then purely physical, people here are mentioning the nice calming and mind-clearing effects of raw meat etc. so you could say it releases substances that are affecting your mental state as well as physical, anything can then be termed a drug, and intelligent people will know the difference between whether they are abusing something or using it for a benefit.
PS. And KD, if you are going to once again say that I am sounding too baby like or overly liberated in my posts, or in any other way attack me personally due to how I choose to express myself, then watch out because I may then do it to you. From your tone sometimes it is now evident that you have your own mental issues & you are in no position to give me your useless pointers on how I should come across as sounding "appropriate". Anyone who chooses to attack someone on that level, when the subject or what I am writing has it own merits whether you believe it or not, has already made themselves look stupid anyways. So now we have exchanged "pointers", after all it is unfair that I get such nice advice from you and not give you any back.
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Why is there not so much bitching about people who once in a while eat some cooked food?
KD you consume cooked food on occasion, as do many others, why is that....it's not ideal, obviously there is reasons why healthy, raw-eating people decide why or why not a certain substance, whether perceived toxic or not by the community, the propaganda, or science is of value to them.
yeah the reason is they acknowledge that it is bad and don't make excuses for it
I mentioned I ate some cooked food as a controlled experiment, in my journal... recently acknowledging the entire time that there were indeed other benefits to doing less than ideal things sometimes. I've mentioned 3-4 times now that people can have superior health even doing traditional things that go completely contrary to many RPD principles we would discuss here as having importance, but we need to make distinctions about what is healthy and what is not otherwise there is no point in having discussions here.
the issue of whether people can tolerate vices is not under question by myself, as I've made the point many times. you've been here like 1 month and have felt the need to bring up this perfectionism thing into just about every thread. Just because I pointed that out doesn't mean you have to get defensive as I don't think that makes you a crazy person. Please take a second and maybe realize that this is partly true., You should be able to separate these issues from yourself, and admit that on that physical level, it is just another toxic substance that can be used in any which way. I don't see what else this has to do with me as all the users seem to concede more and more ground that the use is indeed merely to get high and has little to do with a healthy lifestyle even if you believe it compliments one. I never said it had no beneficial value, I saiid it had net detrimental physical effects.
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yeah the reason is they acknowledge that it is bad and don't make excuses for it
OK...and I will not acknowledge that it is "bad", so get over it already, and the fact that I use it and get benefits from it is not an excuse for using it, it's my reason for doing it, thats just my opinion. Just because I have formulated my own opinion on something that is perceived as bad does not officially make everything I say about it an excuse, my reasoning might be wrong to you and others but again that is just a personal decision so lets just leave it at that. If others disagree with my own distinction then I am fine with it too.
Even if this board makes a unanimous agreement that weed is bad in any amount or form (which won't happen anyway) doesn't take away my right make my own distinction, we don't have to agree on every GOOD vs. BAD distinction and none of us do anyway. There are members of this board that do not agree all cooked food is bad, that some cooked food is even helpful in certain situations, who have been on this forum for a long time, and that should be fine as well if its discussed in the proper thread and it has been.
Its not that I am going into a topic that discusses the benefits of raw meat, or how one should formulate their raw diet, and bringing up weed or cooked food in those threads. I have once done so, and it was pointed out, and after that I had apologized & acknowledged for breaking the rule of that particular forum/thread. I am only going to bring it up in the threads where the subject is appropriate, in this case the subject was weed use, and I voiced my own reasoning for using it, as did others, AFTER it was voiced that it was bad, thats all...
You've been here like 1 month and have felt the need to bring up this perfectionism thing into just about every thread. Just because I pointed that out doesn't mean you have to get defensive as I don't think that makes you a crazy person.
I am not bringing up perfectionism, quite the opposite, that we do not need to attain perfectionism. I believe in eating a mostly raw paleo diet but I do not believe in trying to obtain any kind of perfectionism with it, everyone already knows that thats where I stand. It doesn't matter how long I have been here, why would I care about that, I am here because I enjoy the benefits of a raw paleo diet and that is ENOUGH criteria to be a part of this forum and for me to enjoy and learn from the interesting dietary topics and discussions...I am bringing something YOU have pointed out because you have felt the NEED to bring up my other posts and how I express myself in other threads. No it doesn't mean I HAVE to get defensive but I will, now you know
Please take a second and maybe realize that this is partly true., You should be able to separate these issues from yourself, and admit that on that physical level, it is just another toxic substance that can be used in any which way.
No I will not realize this is "partly true" just because you or some other people want me to. I did say that it does have some toxic properties, I already "admitted" that, how else would you like me to admit it, lol, and I DID say I am not just talking about it on a physical level, I said that many times...
I am not asking you anymore to realize anything positive about weed, so asking me the opposite is now just a waste or you valuable time...
Can we please stop talking about this, if you think my posts are so idiotic with absolutely no useful, factual information or reasoning feel free to either ignore me or get moderators to do something about it. I don't know how else you can go about this really. But trying to make me realize these things is useless from the way you have presented your information, perhaps if you want to try and present it to me differently to make me realize something go ahead but why would you want to spend time on an apparent minority such as me, I have no idea. If you believe I have no grounds just simply pretend I am not posting anything, because it is useless to argue with me on this matter as it currently stands...
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I don't consider it a vice I think of it as spiritual medicine
Many people are altered long before they try marijuana I was fed MSG laced food, caffeine, cheap grains,vegtables and sugars from an early age and perhaps many people of the neolithic and modern age are altered beyond repair and have used herbal remedies to help cope with being less than perfect. Look at the history of herbal medicine and how medicine men through the ages Have tryed to correct problems with herbs; problems that were caused by eatting the wrong vegtable matter or other circumstances beyond our understanding.
Maybe god the almighty created marijuana for those who benefit from it to enjoy. so what is rastas Have only been around 100 years , I am only 27 and will be dead and gone and none of my beliefs will be remembered ,but that doesn't mean they are not just as valid as some more credited scholar. The spirit sees much further beyond the limits of human understanding. marijuana use is only one of many ways to experience existence it is neither right or wrong
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well, ironically you are venturing into the psychological and social, i'm talking purely physical. Like I said, even celery leaves can be toxic to the liver. here is a non-reputable source with other herbs that are damaging to the liver and some 'folk' remedies which have the same effect. http://www.liverdisease.com/harmfulherbs_hepatitis.html
There is no way marijuana eaten in any quantity does not have a negative physical affect on the body - cellularly in the body or the brain - so I'll just stop baiting you on that.
If your point of compare for the supposed toxicity of weed is celery. Ill bite. But then I dont think you have much of a point to begin with.
Certainly as you admit smoking it can easily be carcinogenic, far more than burning sage or other herbs which without any other Google click leads me to believe there are more toxic compounds to begin with in weed than sage.
well, then certainly it must be true. Are there any other information you get channeled to you while you sit there?
how is it even remotely possible to have ideas about the importance of including or excluding things from your diet based on something you've read or thought about alone
For how long do I have to have eaten raw to qualify for an opinion?
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OK...and I will not acknowledge that it is "bad", so get over it already, and the fact that I use it and get benefits from it is not an excuse for using it, it's my reason for doing it, thats just my opinion. Just because I have formulated my own opinion on something that is perceived as bad does not officially make everything I say about it an excuse, my reasoning might be wrong to you and others but again that is just a personal decision so lets just leave it at that. If others disagree with my own distinction then I am fine with it too.
ok fair enough, I wrote a bunch of particular responses and deleted them.
to maybe bury the hatchet and clarify,
I wasn't trying to hold your tenure on any diet or forum against you, just saying that you've already made that impression very clear. Its an appropriate lifestyle choice to eschew perfection. Its not really as appropriate an argument in a discussion since that umbrella can be used for just about anything and what we are in fact doing is weighting one thing against another, two different but similar lifestyles divided by one factor. I could have my own opinion that water fasting means fasting without water or on bubbletea or any other thing but its not necessarily going to mesh well with other peoples existing definitions and conversations.
I too am passionate about unpopular things, but as with politics or food or anything you can't expect to get credit for just having an original idea or thinking outside the box or your own experiments. You have to demonstrate that it works unequivocally or accept criticisms, or just keep it as your opinion. I try to keep a pretty mechanical tone on purpose but yeah I will get angered or snide when people easily throw around ideas that the other is thinking conventionally or narrow when in reality most thought is handed down from somewhere. That or I feel like I am repeating myself over and over or I know that other people will not just give due to pride or so forth. I'm not saying this specifically applies to you. I'm saying that if I can make an argument discussing why HGs or even animals can do unhealthy things, its unfair that it can just be dismissed and cited again some other way that its a natural function. Particularly when we are taling about 'natural' or 'toxic'. there is leeway here but I don't agree that everyone gets to make up their own definition, they only get to choose what works for them.
anyway, I could be wrong, but I don't believe that what I said earlier was a particularly nasty thing to point out or considered it to be any kind of attack in deserving of retaliation. But with your spirit, perhaps its best as I tried to gear before to stick with non heated medicinal uses of the plant, of which even I may learn something (that is a joke).
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I don't consider it a vice I think of it as spiritual medicine
Many people are altered long before they try marijuana I was fed MSG laced food, caffeine, cheap grains,vegtables and sugars from an early age and perhaps many people of the neolithic and modern age are altered beyond repair and have used herbal remedies to help cope with being less than perfect. Look at the history of herbal medicine and how medicine men through the ages Have tryed to correct problems with herbs; problems that were caused by eatting the wrong vegtable matter or other circumstances beyond our understanding.
Maybe god the almighty created marijuana for those who benefit from it to enjoy. so what is rastas Have only been around 100 years , I am only 27 and will be dead and gone and none of my beliefs will be remembered ,but that doesn't mean they are not just as valid as some more credited scholar. The spirit sees much further beyond the limits of human understanding. marijuana use is only one of many ways to experience existence it is neither right or wrong
ok sabertooth, time for me really to get outunumbered hardcore because you pepetuate this same line of why-me argument too much as well. you can't earlier claim to get high during the day at work and them claim spiritual medicine, sorry. as for the rastas, they arnt a traditional people. They were used in context of a discussion on aged peoples that used drugs in their daily routines divorced of particular ceremony which I have yet to see evidence of. Sure I think their very philosophy is stupid and pretentious but I mostly left that out of my original comment.
I'm not going to even play the traditional hygine/paleo/primal raw doctrine that herbs have no use for healthy lifestyles because I don't believe that specifically to be always true. at the same time medicines are by definition toxic to take indiscriminately at ones own discretion, that is exactly why they had medicine men in the first place. There is alot of repair that people need to undertake in getting healthy and its tremendously unfair, but that is why people actually have to often go to more extreme lengths in actually cleaning up their habits rather than rationalizing them.
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If your point of compare for the supposed toxicity of weed is celery. Ill bite. But then I dont think you have much of a point to begin with.
well, then certainly it must be true. Are there any other information you get channeled to you while you sit there?
For how long do I have to have eaten raw to qualify for an opinion?
- ok well that you either didn't read my link you asked for or again you are using your anything goes kind of philosophy 10 steps after you denied (or ignored) that plants all contain toxic substances.
- I do frequently channel information, sort of a trade and better than thinking of obsessing. are you saying this is not a logical perspective that no one has ever gotten cancer from burning sage, lettuces or other green matter (to my knowledge) and therefore the likely possibility that carcinogenic compounds cannot exist purely in smoke? Just because I admitted this idea had no research behind it doesn't make it wrong, it seems obvious enough to me yes.
your opinion qualifies, but you clearly can't make a distinction between being off drugs and cooked foods or condiments on a daily basis (occasional spat is fine) and its counterpoint unless its an extended period of time. I generally think the transition periods to all raw or fat burning or any other thing are greatly underestimated. 6mo min I guess.
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"Certainly as you admit smoking it can easily be carcinogenic, far more than burning sage or other herbs which without any other Google click leads me to believe there are more toxic compounds to begin with in weed than sage."
well, then certainly it must be true. Are there any other information you get channeled to you while you sit there?
I believe (I may be wrong!!!!!!) there are herbs which are not deemed toxic with ingestion in fresh/raw state will be very toxic/poisonous when smoked, of course.
Looking at it from that perspective eating weed is not "worse" than eating those herbs, especially if you are not having these reported bad physical reactions (as is the case in many people) with your level of consumption, just like you would not want to eat huge quantities of any particular fresh herb.
When animals time and time again seek out dope why is that? Would reason not dictate that if the animal felt bad, it would never go near eg. poppies again? Why do they keep comming back for more once they have found a spot where it is available?
Talking about animals doping themselves there could be many reasons - and we should give them some credit...one example:
Quote from wiki:
"Red colobus monkeys in Africa have been observed eating charcoal for the purposes of self-medication. Their leafy diets contain high levels of cyanide, which may lead to indigestion. So they learned to consume charcoal, which absorbs the cyanide and relieves indigestion. This knowledge about supplementing their diet is transmitted from mother to infant."
How cool is that, our distant cousins have mastered traditional medicine?!
@KD
I know you're just joking but I would never expect you to gear for anything or having any similar expectations on any other person no matter their views l) And I expect NO LESS to be done for myself!
EDIT: wtf...my second Quote was not from me but from either brother, cliff or sabertooth...I got confused there are too many posts now, lol
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I believe (I may be wrong!!!!!!) there are herbs which are not deemed toxic with ingestion in fresh/raw state will be very toxic/poisonous when smoked, of course.
Looking at it from that perspective eating weed is not "worse" than eating those herbs, especially if you are not having these reported bad physical reactions (as is the case in many people) with your level of consumption, just like you would not want to eat huge quantities of any particular fresh herb.
that is the whole point though. no one is going to uptake enough celery leaves because there is no advantage to eating them and they have no enjoyable or addictive properties otherwise. People might argue that constant juicing of whole stalks might create some trouble but even then it wouldn't be a fraction of how much weed someone could ingest in a lifetime removed of traditional settings or brushing across in nature. I tend to think this argument of the wandering nomad gets old myself, but it does apply well to this kind of thing or honey and the like. regardless, it isn't splitting hairs to say the celery leaves are toxic and some people do believe even small amounts of herbs are harmful to various organs.
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- ok well that you either didn't read my link you ask for or you again you are using your anything goes kind of philosophy 10 steps after you denied (or ignored) that plants all contain toxic substances.
Now I did in full. But I did still not see cannabis of any sort mentioned. Are you arguing that because buckthorn may contain hepatotoxic properties, then all plants must? There is a leap of faith being made here. I think the purpose of the page is to warn against "supplements craze". The list is not exhaustive obviously, and I found an entry that made me wonder about the screening process used to assemble it.
Kava ( also known as kava kava or Piper methysticum)
I have spend a lot of hours studying this pacific shrub, it's history, its chemical profile. It was subject to what smelled like a smear campaign from pharmaceutical companies. It was aquitted of all charges and import is back up within the EU. marvelous thing is Kava. If this stuff did not taste so nasty, I would put it in the drinking water on my first day as world dictator.
your opinion qualifies, but you clearly can't make a distinction between being off drugs and cooked foods or condiments on a daily basis (occasional spat is fine) and its counterpoint unless its an extended period of time
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So. Idealy speaking, it should be someone who have been on this diet for 6months without using any toxic stuff on purpose. I think an anecdotal trial like this would be really interesting. Also, I think I am finally tuning into where you are coming from with this. While I dont think it is toxic in its technical meaning, I can see what youre getting at. I am a pragmatic square, you can see how that would rub against your own personality, yes? :)
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as for the rastas, they arnt a traditional people. They were used in context of a discussion on aged peoples that used drugs in their daily routines divorced of particular ceremony which I have yet to see evidence of. Sure I think their very philosophy is stupid and pretentious but I mostly left that out of my original comment.
Now I am not religious at all...I don't give care about god actually...however I do believe in a natural energy, or if you want to call it, 'spirit'.
Although I am not in 100% agreement with Rastafarian philosophy, I believe its a hell of a lot better then most modern philosophies/life-styles etc, they are a spiritual people that are able to maintain their beliefs in a peaceful way thats a lot less invasive and idiotic then most.
Also...
(http://www.cannabisculture.com/v2/files/images/2408-bob-marley-with-buds.jpg)
(http://www.cannabisculture.com/library/images/uploads/2408-black-guy_diving-board.jpg)
(http://www.cannabisculture.com/library/images/uploads/2408-old-dude-with-snake_2.jpg)
how can you not wanna wanna hang out with these dudes? lol
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Now I did in full. But I did still not see cannabis of any sort mentioned. Are you arguing that because buckthorn may contain hepatotoxic properties, then all plants must? There is a leap of faith being made here. I think the purpose of the page is to warn against "supplements craze". The list is not exhaustive obviously, and I found an entry that made me wonder about the screening process used to assemble it.
Kava ( also known as kava kava or Piper methysticum)
I have spend a lot of hours studying this pacific shrub, it's history, its chemical profile. It was subject to what smelled like a smear campaign from pharmaceutical companies. It was aquitted of all charges and import is back up within the EU. marvelous thing is Kava. If this stuff did not taste so nasty, I would put it in the drinking water on my first day as world dictator.
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So. Idealy speaking, it should be someone who have been on this diet for 6months without using any toxic stuff on purpose. I think an anecdotal trial like this would be really interesting. Also, I think I am finally tuning into where you are coming from with this. While I dont think it is toxic in its technical meaning, I can see what youre getting at. I am a pragmatic square, you can see how that would rub against your own personality, yes? :)
well If I had an article that specifically discussed the toxic properties of marijuana, you wouldn't accept it :)
I'm not saying all plants have that particular hepotoxin, i'm saying just because something is a plant, and a herb does not make it safe to consume indiscriminately as they all indeed carry some matter of harmful substance that you can't just dismiss. like I pointed out with medicine men, they could pick which plants worked for what conditions so people didn't just run around eating mushrooms and junk. They also had far less variables to consider, there lies the problem of most modern herbology, not that I am an expert in it.
I thought I was the pragmatic square. this would be a god-awful episode of Hollywood Squares. Unless we were stoned.
yuli: I have to admit I like alot of rastas and stoners personally, I'm more of a conforming non-conformist myself, which is one reason i'm hard on people that 'stand out' or live as some kind of reaction or commentary. If people are really authentic and peaceful and don't have a ton of money raining from above, than that jives with me.
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that is the whole point though. no one is going to uptake enough celery leaves because there is no advantage to eating them and they have no enjoyable or addictive properties otherwise.
Exactly, where else my point is, weed, to a lot of people (despite these well-documented studies I won't even argue with), has enjoyable properties without being truly addictive or in any way physically incapacitating (much less addictive then alcohol, other hard drugs and especially nicotine in different forms)....
....Just how my cat is with her catnip, she's taking just a little bit at odd times, then go on being a little cutey-pie, she won't keep eating the catnip to make herself sick, I can leave the catnip there all day, she won't get cranky or change for the worse when I don't have it there, lol, she is a very healthy cat as well...I wouldn't say she is addicted to catnip or in any way physically inferior to a cat that is never given catnip. Not to say some cats may develop problems when given any amount of catnip, that may happen sometimes, not often.
some people do believe even small amounts of herbs are harmful to various organs.
That is true, yet I have to disagree with their beliefs (not to step in any toes), not that I am in any way trying to change them or to even consider what I am saying at all. Its just MY own belief, that unless you are in a sick or hypersensitive state, that avoiding even small amounts of herbs because they think they will be harmed is bordering irrational fear and it in most cases based on faulty psychology.
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yuli: I have to admit I like alot of rastas and stoners personally, I'm more of a conforming non-conformist myself, which is one reason i'm hard on people that 'stand out' or live as some kind of reaction or commentary. If people are really authentic and peaceful and don't have a ton of money raining from above, than that jives with me.
I can agree with that! :)
I am seem to be a fan of philosphies that don't revolve in making lots of money...and even though I believe money can be unnecessary in an ideal society (and I wouldn't mind living in a perfect one like that if there was) I want to make a whole crapload of it thats for sure! And my actions often revolve around how I can make more money yet follow my own spiritual way of being.
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That is true, yet I have to disagree with their beliefs (not to step in any toes), not that I am in any way trying to change them or to even consider what I am saying at all. Its just MY own belief, that unless you are in a sick or hypersensitive state, that avoiding even small amounts of herbs because they think they will be harmed is bordering irrational fear and it in most cases based on faulty psychology.
well, there is the mystic truth right there, to attain healhyness is to achieve madness. Why else do you think I'm cooking shrimp and had my first drink in almost 5 years? I fear the abyss. I do think that point is very legitimate but it depends on one's goals. I do believe that even though someone felt that way, if they desired they could go off drugs and cooked foods and have probably a positive overall experience in time, but that would be entirely optional I suppose for someone already at a high degree of consciousness towards health. I also think just because something is not officially as addictive as things like nicotine or heroin that it can be so otherwise as in even almost universally accepted healthy things like exercise and sex.
edit: well the problem (for me) is only having money that they didn't earn to support a lifestyle that claims to be self sufficient and humble, albeit with vacations and safety nets for rainy days.
http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/digital-short-ras-trent/787201/
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...I also think just because something is not officially as addictive as things like nicotine or heroin that it can be so otherwise as in even almost universally accepted healthy things like exercise and sex.
Its just a complex mess of gradients... nicotine >>> weed >>> sex..... could be an accepted gradient.
Even completely accepted healthy things like exercise and sex, may become a problem for an individual.
There have been sex-addicts, and exercise addicts as well, it may not be as common or we may just not have the proper data...
and in turn an addictive interest in sex or exercise has been known to lead to detrimental activities (similar to how they say weed can lead to harder drugs)...
Such as when a 'sex-addict' starts to obsessively browse porn, or carelessly slept with people they didn't know and contracted STDs.
Or when an exercise-addict gives into the temptation to try drugs or even natural substances to increase performance.
These are slightly extreme examples but we only can speculate...
The complexity of these issues is enormous.
edit: well the problem (for me) is only having money that you didn't earn to support a lifestyle that claims to be self sufficient and humble, albeit with vacations and safety nets for rainy days.
I can agree 100% ... I have on numerous occasions been in a too tight spot money-wise to afford my fancy organic raw diet (on which I spend a small fortune :P), in this case I humbly will eat whatever is on the table (while trying to make the decision of what would be the less-worse food), not ask my parents for money so I can order some ground bison, and humbly sit my ass in front of my computer and work my arse off instead of whining about how I have no time to run around naked in the sun or smoke weed and do yoga. There are people that do that and I also have no respect for that, I do remind myself if I ever steer in that direction.
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well If I had an article that specifically discussed the toxic properties of marijuana, you wouldn't accept it :)
I have read them en mass. I mean I have chewed through piles of them. At best the evidence is inconclusive. It depends on who you ask, i would say. The only thing you find about it that is cast in iron is about its potential psychological effects. If you want to ascribe this to a "toxic effect" that targets some people but not others. that is fine by me.
If we go down this route, consider that the beneficial effects like a potential anti cancer property, as a pain relief etc. are often caused by the same "toxic" compounds.
I'm not saying all plants have that particular hepotoxin, i'm saying just because something is a plant, and a herb does not make it safe to consume indiscriminately as they all indeed carry some matter of harmful substance that you can't just dismiss.
Death cap is perfectly natural, but its name is not coincidental. Other mushrooms poisons like that of Cortinarius speciosissimu and Boletus satanas kick into effect after a week. Then
your kidneys die. I am as much an opponent of "just because its natural its safe" as you are. But we are talking about cannabis. The toxicity of cannabis is low at any point of compare. And when you concider the known benefits.
I thought I was the pragmatic square. this would be a god-awful episode of Hollywood Squares. Unless we were stoned.
;D
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Now I am not religious at all...I don't give care about god actually...however I do believe in a natural energy, or if you want to call it, 'spirit'.
Although I am not in 100% agreement with Rastafarian philosophy, I believe its a hell of a lot better then most modern philosophies/life-styles etc, they are a spiritual people that are able to maintain their beliefs in a peaceful way thats a lot less invasive and idiotic then most.
Yes, they are very peaceful, beating up their women and beating homosexuals to death in the name of Jah sure is peaceful. Anyway, you are white, right? How exactly can you support Rastafari then?
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Yes, they are very peaceful, beating up their women and beating homosexuals to death in the name of Jah sure is peaceful. Anyway, you are white, right? How exactly can you support Rastafari then?
Well you just generalized Rastafarian views/philosophy as a whole in an idiotically simplistic way, second you have made the conclusion that I am a Rastafari supporter, then, you bring up the color of my skin as if it has anything to do with anything.
I am not going to answer your question as it does not even deserve one, and is also not pertinent to this thread IMO...
Edit: I wrote you "generalized" but I meant to say you are completely wrong, in no way is this part of Rastafari religion or are the people that are doing anything of that sort true Rastafari...this could be said for other religions....
Not to go into any further discussions about any religion...yawn
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Surely color of the skin has nothing to do with rastafari... lol
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I am a bit nostalgic and unrealistic , but I have met Rastafarian's who are noble , even if a bit stupid ,as Kd likes to call them. They are descendants of slaves many of them have grown up in poverty under corrupt and oppressive governments, and yet the spirit is still strong in those I have met and I wont criticise them or their way of life. Legalize it don't criticize it. Maybee I am prejudice but I prefer the company of pot smokers regardless of skin color.
I still contend than most Babylonians have been altered beyond repair from a spiritual sickness that is not being addressed, the heart of my soul has seen the abyss and I am deeply conflicted as to what to do about it. I know that indiscriminate use of any drug is bad magic, but marijuana is different it truly is mild and not toxic to the body, its effects are limited to the THC receptor sites in the brain and after the effects have worn off there isn't any damage or withdrawl, but the change in consciousness can leave a lasting impression and be helpful for those who are seekers of raw uninhibited experiences. The Deer were I live will eat the hell out of it and must get high , birds will eat the seeds and get high, so what if humans smoke it to feel high.
When used in the homeopathic amounts described by myself and Yuli just a couple of tokes every now and then(I often go days without in order to keep my tolerance low) has no negative effects that I can discern and it offers a pleasant state of consciousness that I cant achieve by any other method.; is it self indulgent,perhaps but so what, I have found about the least harmful way to be self indulgent without interfering with my real goal of maintaining health and wellness, which I can tell you I am doing alright after ten months on raw animal food. I am toking only milligrams of pot at a time. I would claim its essentially harmless to use in such small amounts. I use no other substances; caffeine, Alcohol ;nothing. That's miraculous where I come from; a long line of cigarette smoking, alcoholic, caffeine addicts.
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OK sabertooth, time for me really to get outnumbered hardcore because you perpetuate this same line of why-me argument too much as well. you can't earlier claim to get high during the day at work and them claim spiritual medicine, sorry.
Work is not spiritual then what is.
This is the problem with building Babylon , how can you subject yourself to employment and spend 40 hours a week in service to the Money without experiencing spirituality until clocking out. My spirit takes no time off and I am not constantly toking pot as an escape from work, Its a sacrament I use to bless the work I do with the spirit of the being who made it happen. Two tokes and nose to the grindstone, I work hard and put my heart into what I do and If I can do it with lifted spirits then more power to me.(pot was essentially the drug of choice for the slave class, in pre civil war America and it may have made impoverished conditions more tolerable for black slaves, as it does for many of today's working class)
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Work is not spiritual then what is.
This is the problem with building Babylon , how can you subject yourself to employment and spend 40 hours a week in service to the Money without experiencing spirituality until clocking out. My spirit takes no time off and I am not constantly toking pot as an escape from work, Its a sacrament I use to bless the work I do with the spirit of the being who made it happen. Two tokes and nose to the grindstone, I work hard and put my heart into what I do and If I can do it with lifted spirits then more power to me.(pot was essentially the drug of choice for the slave class, in pre civil war America and it may have made impoverished conditions more tolerable for black slaves, as it does for many of today's working class)
Sorry I was a bit tough on you and I appreciate your fairly laid back response, but what you define is exactly what a vice is. How many people use caffeine, nicotine, alcohol, painkillers, dense heavy foods, fast foods, sugars etc... because they are completely satisfied with the now moment and their lot in life? Often times the purpose is purely pleasure, or freedom from pain, or boredom. These arn't 'bad' reasons to do things but they are by definition not healthy ones - as they are also poor reasons to do even healthy things like have sex, exercise, and eat. you dig? You are probably right that what I just listed are all in some order more damaging than a few milligrams of pot but that doesn't mean from a health perspective it is minor. I don't want you to think I am judging you in particular if you are agreeing to compare yourself to a whole history of folks who traditionally use substances in the same exact way. I'm not saying there is no rightful way to seize moments of freedom and spirit - for lack of a better term - in 'oppressive' circumstances. I'm saying that is how pretty much all humans navigate their life, and that is the definition of vice in my opinion. shit that isn't totally good, but might make your life run alot smoother. In the end, I agree this can be very healthy and obsessing otherwise can be very unhealthy.