Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Other Raw-Animal-Food Diets (eg:- Primal Diet/Raw Version of Weston-Price Diet etc.) => Raw Weston Price => Topic started by: JaredBond on July 13, 2009, 01:18:02 pm
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This is a response to Raw Kyle and others in the topic "Fan of Price's work". I'm answering here because I think it's important enough that even passerbys should see it, and also because it's been almost a year since anyone's responded in that topic.
Anyways, I was glad to see that someone linked to the exact article I was influenced by at the time: "Is it Mental or is it Dental" by Raymond Silkman, from the WAPF website (http://www.westonaprice.org/healthissues/facial-development.html). However, that article doesn't illustrate what he does to actually treat his patients. I wrote to Silkman, thinking maybe it was surgery, but he responded back saying he uses an "ALF Lightwire" device to expand the upper palates of people. I'm not sure if he uses anything else, but the thing about ALF Lightwire is that it actually moves the bones of the entire face. I've seen pictures online (though I can't find them now), and also if you actually see a practitioner they'll probably show you before and after pictures of their patients.
The idea is that a very gentle, steady force (rather than the strong and abrupt force of common expanders or surgery) will properly coerce the bones into moving and adapting, instead of wanting to snap back to their original position. For instance, according to my practitioner, ALF patients never need a retainer. And interestingly, the bones know when to stop moving as well- she's never had a patient where the jaw has expanded TOO much. The second crucial element is giving space for the teeth to move- for example, my bottom teeth are temporarily going to be "built up" so that my bite in front doesn't close. My theory is that your current bite is actually what's keeping your jaws (and therefore, cranial structure) in its current place, by way of you biting down throughout the day- sort of the same gentle but steady pressure the ALF uses to move the teeth.
I'm kind of filling in the blanks here, but what this sounds like is that your head, face and jaws actually know where they should be, and WANT to move or grow there, if you only give them a chance. I know you're not supposed to be able to grow past about age 20, but people of ALL AGES do lightwire and it works. I've seen the dental casts and pictures of a patient treated in her late 60s. The results were dramatic. The only downside is that it can take a long time- up to 6 years. But it can take as little as 1 year, if you're young. I'm 24 myself, and I'm projected to take 3 years (my Lightwire is currently being ordered). I'm really hoping for sooner though, as maybe better nutrition than most will speed up the process. However, I don’t think supplementing with calcium to “grow bones” is a good idea, in case anyone was thinking that.*
The other downside is that it's expensive, at least with the people that I've contacted. I guess all orthodontics are, but still, it's a tiny piece of metal. But, it does require a huge amount of expertise to adjust it properly and predict where the bones will go. Just be prepared for the price. It's probably going to be about $1000 to get started with someone, $500 for the x-rays (and if you have someone really in depth, they will want all sorts of x-rays and measurements), $400 per visit (once every 1-2 months), and $2000 for braces afterwards. Some things like the x-rays may be covered by insurance- heck, maybe more. Tell the insurance people, or get diagnosed for something called "myofascial pain" or TMJ- "temporomandibular joint disorder", or sleep apnea (go to a sleep lab- ask your doctor for an order), and maybe they'll cover some or all of it. It should be in their books.
You can see if any people doing this are in your area here: http://www.alforthodontics.com/Practitioners%20&%20Labs.htm. This site is run by Ljuba Lemke, who treats with the ALF and also is one of the key teachers for it. Her site is http://www.holistichealthsource.com. You can see pictures of what the ALF can do, top and bottom jaw, here: http://www.icnr.com/cs/cs_05.html.
More info on the ALF: It was invented by Darick Nordstrom in the 1980s and is manufactured by Murdock Laboratories in Colorado (only place as far as I know). You can see Nordstrom here in this video (all infomercial-y and ready for mass consumption): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx5oXFrceB0. Although, since the 80s, the technology has been improving. For example, the more lightweight and flexible the metal, the better. Also, make sure they are attaching it to your 2nd or 3rd back molars, not the 1st, as those have more influence on the bones of the face. My practitioner, Rebecca Griffiths of Phoenix AZ, says to have worked with Nordstrom and actually convinced him to make this change.
So, while I can't say for sure because I haven't had it yet, this ALF Lightwire seems very promising. I have some hope it will do something for me, though my head is a bit small and narrow and I don’t think it will change that. I found this site because I think low carb is the way to proper nutrition, and proper nutrition of me and my parents would have avoided these problems to begin with. Seeing the changes in Dr. Price’s natives is the first thing that clued me in to that. I’ll be letting you know how it goes for me.
-Jared Bond, AZ
P.S. I hope this forum stays up forever, because I reference this site to vegans and vegetarians!
*(Sadly, as expert as my practitioner is at orthodontics, she suggested supplementing with calcium. Now, I just read in "Gut and Psychology Syndrome", by Natasha-Campbell-McBride, that nutrients compete for absorption with other nutrients in the gut; calcium for instance competes with magnesium, zinc, copper, iron, some amino acids and other things. When you eat an unnatural amount of any substance, the ratio of the others will be off, creating a deficiency (pg. 197-198). Plus, supplementing with calcium decreases stomach acid, disrupting the entire process of digestion. Too much calcium in the blood is also not a good thing- calcium kills brain cells if they are not able to pump it out, as with an MSG reaction. Besides, bones are mostly synthesized from protein, as Barry Groves points out in his book "Trick and Treat" (pg. 365))
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I've been thinking about getting this done on my daughter and myself. Let us know how it goes.
As far as mineral supplements go, it's fine to supplement with calcium so long as you take some magnesium. They balance each other. I take a lot of dolomite and bone meal every day, which are very calcium-rich, but balance that with lots of Pascalite, which is very magnesium-rich. I've had blood work done, and my calcium/magnesium ratio is perfect, and I've been doing that for almost a year now.
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Interesting, might check those sites out. Might be a good preventative for when I get my wisdoms.
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This is a response to Raw Kyle and others in the topic "Fan of Price's work". I'm answering here because I think it's important enough that even passerbys should see it, and also because it's been almost a year since anyone's responded in that topic.
Anyways, I was glad to see that someone linked to the exact article I was influenced by at the time: "Is it Mental or is it Dental" by Raymond Silkman, from the WAPF website (http://www.westonaprice.org/healthissues/facial-development.html). However, that article doesn't illustrate what he does to actually treat his patients. I wrote to Silkman, thinking maybe it was surgery, but he responded back saying he uses an "ALF Lightwire" device to expand the upper palates of people. I'm not sure if he uses anything else, but the thing about ALF Lightwire is that it actually moves the bones of the entire face. I've seen pictures online (though I can't find them now), and also if you actually see a practitioner they'll probably show you before and after pictures of their patients.
The idea is that a very gentle, steady force (rather than the strong and abrupt force of common expanders or surgery) will properly coerce the bones into moving and adapting, instead of wanting to snap back to their original position. For instance, according to my practitioner, ALF patients never need a retainer. And interestingly, the bones know when to stop moving as well- she's never had a patient where the jaw has expanded TOO much. The second crucial element is giving space for the teeth to move- for example, my bottom teeth are temporarily going to be "built up" so that my bite in front doesn't close. My theory is that your current bite is actually what's keeping your jaws (and therefore, cranial structure) in its current place, by way of you biting down throughout the day- sort of the same gentle but steady pressure the ALF uses to move the teeth.
I'm kind of filling in the blanks here, but what this sounds like is that your head, face and jaws actually know where they should be, and WANT to move or grow there, if you only give them a chance. I know you're not supposed to be able to grow past about age 20, but people of ALL AGES do lightwire and it works. I've seen the dental casts and pictures of a patient treated in her late 60s. The results were dramatic. The only downside is that it can take a long time- up to 6 years. But it can take as little as 1 year, if you're young. I'm 24 myself, and I'm projected to take 3 years (my Lightwire is currently being ordered). I'm really hoping for sooner though, as maybe better nutrition than most will speed up the process. However, I don’t think supplementing with calcium to “grow bones” is a good idea, in case anyone was thinking that.*
The other downside is that it's expensive, at least with the people that I've contacted. I guess all orthodontics are, but still, it's a tiny piece of metal. But, it does require a huge amount of expertise to adjust it properly and predict where the bones will go. Just be prepared for the price. It's probably going to be about $1000 to get started with someone, $500 for the x-rays (and if you have someone really in depth, they will want all sorts of x-rays and measurements), $400 per visit (once every 1-2 months), and $2000 for braces afterwards. Some things like the x-rays may be covered by insurance- heck, maybe more. Tell the insurance people, or get diagnosed for something called "myofascial pain" or TMJ- "temporomandibular joint disorder", or sleep apnea (go to a sleep lab- ask your doctor for an order), and maybe they'll cover some or all of it. It should be in their books.
You can see if any people doing this are in your area here: http://www.alforthodontics.com/Practitioners%20&%20Labs.htm. This site is run by Ljuba Lemke, who treats with the ALF and also is one of the key teachers for it. Her site is http://www.holistichealthsource.com. You can see pictures of what the ALF can do, top and bottom jaw, here: http://www.icnr.com/cs/cs_05.html.
More info on the ALF: It was invented by Darick Nordstrom in the 1980s and is manufactured by Murdock Laboratories in Colorado (only place as far as I know). You can see Nordstrom here in this video (all infomercial-y and ready for mass consumption): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx5oXFrceB0. Although, since the 80s, the technology has been improving. For example, the more lightweight and flexible the metal, the better. Also, make sure they are attaching it to your 2nd or 3rd back molars, not the 1st, as those have more influence on the bones of the face. My practitioner, Rebecca Griffiths of Phoenix AZ, says to have worked with Nordstrom and actually convinced him to make this change.
So, while I can't say for sure because I haven't had it yet, this ALF Lightwire seems very promising. I have some hope it will do something for me, though my head is a bit small and narrow and I don’t think it will change that. I found this site because I think low carb is the way to proper nutrition, and proper nutrition of me and my parents would have avoided these problems to begin with. Seeing the changes in Dr. Price’s natives is the first thing that clued me in to that. I’ll be letting you know how it goes for me.
-Jared Bond, AZ
P.S. I hope this forum stays up forever, because I reference this site to vegans and vegetarians!
*(Sadly, as expert as my practitioner is at orthodontics, she suggested supplementing with calcium. Now, I just read in "Gut and Psychology Syndrome", by Natasha-Campbell-McBride, that nutrients compete for absorption with other nutrients in the gut; calcium for instance competes with magnesium, zinc, copper, iron, some amino acids and other things. When you eat an unnatural amount of any substance, the ratio of the others will be off, creating a deficiency (pg. 197-198). Plus, supplementing with calcium decreases stomach acid, disrupting the entire process of digestion. Too much calcium in the blood is also not a good thing- calcium kills brain cells if they are not able to pump it out, as with an MSG reaction. Besides, bones are mostly synthesized from protein, as Barry Groves points out in his book "Trick and Treat" (pg. 365))
Just had to bump this amazingly useful post. Thanks!
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The Weston-Price forum is in no danger of becoming extinct, though I'm rather surprised it hasn't taken off in the way the Primal Diet forum has. We have 1 very important thread on the WP forum with an online version of Dr Price's book which a lot of people read, so it's here to stay, regardless.
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I am going through with the ALF procedure as well. I am seeing James Kennedy of DentoCranial in Grand Junction Colorado. I was going to go to Dr. Lemke in Durango Colorado, but she was much more expensive and too far for me to travel. It was $400 to get started with x-rays/molds/measurements. I have a narrow upper palate along with TMJ issues and maloclusion. I will try to keep everyone posted on my progression.
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Thank you and best of healing to you!
So we can fix narrow palates and cranial deformities that happened due to poor nutrition. How about other bone deformities? Is osteopathy used for that too? (in addition to diet)
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Hi Jared M!
Please keep us up to date, ALF as well as other orthodontic appliances appear to really open up the palate. I found a dentist where i live who isn't a fan of ALF but said he would do it for $6000! I found another one in Australia 6-8 plane trips away a year for two years plus taxis etc who was very enthusiastic about ALF though.
I had a consultation with the first guy who said my palate wasn't narrow (his idea of narrow) and I wouldnt need much work (2 years max) and recommended going straight to invisalgn. He told not to believe in ALF magic! (i've seen some amazing photos) I personally think I would be a good candidate for it plus my excellent diet.
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just to add the second dentist trips would work out to be a AUS$1000 (US$900) all up eeek but you can't put a price on health. The second dentist uses ALF then Invisalign.
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To RawZi, orthodontic appliances can help with curved spines, forward head posture a couple of dentists (Dr Sims an Dr Stacks) are using appliances which cure tics/tourettes. One of the main positives that of broadening of the palate is it dampens the nervous system and allows more room for trapped nerves and tongues. An open palate opens up personalities. It's hard to believe dentist still extract teeth and use old school braces to make nice smiles when theres so many more options out there which are less invasive (but more work/training (less profit))
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To RawZi, orthodontic appliances can help with curved spines, forward head posture a couple of dentists (Dr Sims an Dr Stacks) are using appliances which cure tics/tourettes. One of the main positives that of broadening of the palate is it dampens the nervous system and allows more room for trapped nerves and tongues. An open palate opens up personalities. It's hard to believe dentist still extract teeth and use old school braces to make nice smiles when theres so many more options out there which are less invasive (but more work/training (less profit))
To wodinga,
Very interesting. I have one person who seems to have some sort of nervous tick, and had a malocclusion (grew up on formula and total SAD) worked on by a regular dental surgeon. Another person who had some malnutrition and needed a neck brace for a while. I'm wondering about long-bones though, like rickets.
When my palette broadened from eating RAF, I think it helped my personality and my nervous system showed improvement alongside too.
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Hi Jared, just wondering if you went through with the ALF lightwire treatment for your jaw/palate realignment and how it went. Have you noticed other positive effects health-wise besides just the realignment of your teeth? Postural balancing or improvements in your mental state, energy levels, digestion, muscular tension, etc?
I'd be interested to know. Thanks!
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When my palette broadened from eating RAF, I think it helped my personality and my nervous system showed improvement alongside too.
It broadened just from that?? Really??
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Hi all,
It's me, the guy who started this thread. I can't write much, because it's hard to write about disappointing news. And I've been disappointed with the ALF. And I have what I'd consider to be one of the better ALF people out there: Rebecca Griffiths (http://www.tmjarizona.com/). I say that because she focuses on realigning the jaws in addition to the ALF. But she also sees things through a very rosy lens, if you ask me, and will continue to say that the ALF "moves bones" in the whole face, and also believe in a bunch of other bogus cures. She eventually has tried to refer me to a cranial osteopath to try to correct my asymmetries, and has remarked that it may not work if I'm not willing to "believe" in it. The cranio-osteopath will not do even one free session to try to help me decide, and I'm tired of forking out money for bogus treatments.
What has it done? Well, basically, just splayed out my top teeth. I'm not done with the treatment, but I don't have high hopes. I still feel very deficient in the mid and upper face.
Also what I've considered is NCR, as seen here in this youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ngRpnBN3ag. But seriously, is the guy who invented it credible? He's also invented this completely bullshit looking thing here (http://www.bodiebox.com/). Anything that deals with "energy waves" can be written off as pure bullshit in my opinion. Anyways, I'm not willing to spend $400-$600 and a lot of trauma to find out if NCR is worth anything.
I'm very skeptical about alternative cures these days, and you should be too. For example, I've seen Mark Starr, who is well known for his "Type 2 Hypothyroidism: The Epidemic" book. I don't know if you know who he is, but I was shocked to learn that he's a complete con. You can take that not as my opinion, but a plain fact. I don't care to go into it, but noting that "kinesiology" and homeopathy are two main pillars of his "treatment" should be enough for you.
There are other forms of ALF devices out there. I wouldn't expect more out of them than the ALF but I guess it's worth mentioning here. There's this in Australia:
http://www.myoresearch.com/cms/index.php?professional, and another thing featured on this blog post: http://ryan-koch.blogspot.com/2010/03/adult-palate-expansion.html.
My goal is to get some sort of cranial surgery done in my lifetime, and I'm probably just going to have to fork out the money. I've looked into being a research subject in using new techniques to fix the head, as seen here at the UCLA: http://www.uclahealth.org/body.cfm?xyzpdqabc=0&id=307&action=detail&limit_department=22&limit_division=1069. They say ALL AGES. But I figure they only want people with more severe cranial deformities. I dunno, I guess I should try writing to them just in case. One of the people on the team is Dr. James Bradley, a guy who has WRITTEN the textbook on craniofacial surgery. They have the best people there. Anyways, what they are doing trials for, osteogenesis (stretching of craniofacial bones), sounds way better than traditional surgery. You can get a glimpse of how it works here: http://www.rchsd.org/ourcare/programsservices/c-d/craniofacialservices/advancedprocedures/distractionosteogenesis/A002824.
Matt's girlfriend of 180degreehealth went to this guy: http://www.arnettcourses.com/. You can see x-rays of what's been done to her on his blog post here: http://180degreehealth.blogspot.com/2010/06/lose-25-pounds-in-28-days.html. I like that he does upper face as well.
Before going through with anything though, I'd like to know, what techniques should we use to determine what my head's supposed to look like? This is probably a question few could really have the right approach to, as few know about Weston A Price, and therefore, what a head is supposed to look like. All I know so far is that there is the "Sassouni analysis", along with a few others, as seen here: http://www.sassouniorthodontics.com/pages/about.htm. That's what they use to do the tracing on my x-rays I get with my treatment from Rebecca Griffiths. But who's to say it's right? And that reminds me, I have to get the copies of my most recent x-rays, so I can do a conclusive before-and-after comparison to see what's changed, if anything. The tracing analysis has drastically changed, but I'd have to compare the actual x-rays, not the drawings of them, to be sure.
They use this software to do the analysis: http://www.dolphinimaging.com/3d.html. I'd love to get it on my computer somehow, but I couldn't find a torrent anywhere. Heck, I'd love to get my own CT and x-ray machines for that matter, and then charge people to use them :). Eeeaaaaasy money!
Here's some more organizations that might be helpful:
http://www.baoms.org.uk/page.asp?id=61
http://www.iaom.com/
http://www.iscfs.org/
http://www.researchgate.net/journal/1536-3732_The_Journal_of_craniofacial_surgery
Here's one of Bradley's books online:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ssYcw4GuihgC&printsec=frontcover&dq=experimental+craniofacial+surgery&source=gbs_similarbooks_s&cad=1#v=onepage&q=experimental%20craniofacial%20surgery&f=false
Here's a person with Crouzon's syndrome in the Czech Republic who is currently undergoing many surgeries, paid for by her government (I think). I don't have Crouzon's, but maybe someone here does.
http://candar.wordpress.com/about/
Well, good luck to anyone in this pursuit. The only advice I can give is, be very skeptical. It's a cruel world, and there are sick people out there who will take money from sick people.
Also, I rarely visit this forum, especially because I am NOT low-carb anymore. I think it can actually be harmful. In essence, it is entirely plausible that humans have at least been eating various potato-like root vegetables and cooking them since the dawn of time. It's not that hard to believe that we naturally have eaten starch, as hominids probably got calories from whatever source they could. And consider this: what if insulin spikes do NOT lead to insulin resistance? Well, there's actually good evidence that they actually IMPROVE insulin sensitivity, as shown by Matt Stone, when his fasting glucose levels LOWERED after a month of eating a ton of carbs. I advise you to listen to him and get his free ebook here: http://www.180degreehealth.com/. I know we're all desperate (desperate enough to eat raw meat?), but the main message you should get from him is that we need to trust our feelings more. I even eat sugar again (which he doesn't recommend, but I do). I'm taken away my acne by merely avoiding omega 6 and polyunsaturates in general, which does not require much willpower at all.
My best explanation for the ills of the world at this point are toxins (including unnatural PUFAs), and malnutrition (perhaps even caused by chronic undereating).
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Cheers for coming back on and updating. How long have you had the ALF device in, and how long left do you have before you're due to get it out? I've just been for my initial consultation for ALF here (still not had it inserted), im waiting on them to get back to me to schedule my second appointment.
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Hi Jared
You should check out Action Hero's transformation before you leave. His jaw and mid facial area have changed dramatically.
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How long? About a year and a half. I wouldn't expect to have it more than 4 months from now. Trying to wrap things up as best I can.
wodgina: I checked him out. (It's here for everyone else: http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/before-and-after-photos/before-and-after-or-how-to-grow-a-strong-jaw-on-raw-paleo/msg35471/#msg35471)
No doubt he looks different. I would like to ask though, how old was he in his first pic? People still grow from age 20-25, as I've seen in myself. Looks like he also lost the fat on his face, which makes a difference. I know that happened to me when I was LC/ZC.
I seen people on this board who look very good and healthy on LC/ZC. Matt Stone warns of a "low carb honeymoon", after doing low carb himself for 2 years (of course, I think he never really went below 100g/day). But I dunno, maybe some people can do well on LC long term. Not me though.
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"...it may not work if I'm not willing to "believe" in it.
I share your skepticism, as that statement is a hallmark of quacks. Do you have before and after photos to compare and see if you've had any structural change beyond the teeth spreading?
At first blush Dean Howell doesn't look or come across as particularly credible. He is clearly overweight in a fatty way, so his "healthy lifestyle" obviously does not include a healthy diet and I'm skeptical that a balloon would significantly adjust the skull. I won't dismiss it, not having researched it, but I'm not impressed enough to look into it any further.
... humans have at least been eating various potato-like root vegetables and cooking them since the dawn of time....
Not quite the dawn of time. Besides, wild chimpanzees have been eating fruits for over 5 million years and still get cavities from them--much more cavities than wild carnivores like wolves and big cats. Plus giant pandas have been eating bamboo for many millions of years and still are not morphologically adapted to it, as several of the scientists that study them admit. I have written extensively about both these cases in this forum.
As Dr. Kurt Harris says, just because Stone Agers (or even wild animals) ate a certain food doesn't necessarily make it optimally healthy in the sense that we modern humans tend to think of. There are more pieces to the puzzle, such as morphology.
My guess is that traditionally cooked tubers are much less unhealthy than grains, legumes and some other modern foods, and Kitavans and others seem to handle them OK, but it's just a guess and I'm skeptical that they're optimal foods. If you are determined to eat them, I suggest trying to mimic the low-and-slow traditional styles of cooking.
I tried a modified Paleo diet that included cooked tubers in the past but didn't do well on it. I recently tried re-introducing a small amount of raw fruits into my diet, but found that even that had negative effects. It may be because I have insulin resistance, as I have other symptoms of that.
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Tubers are very unhealthy and need a lot of processing, not just cooking to get rid of the toxins(eg:- cassava). Only something like 1% of tubers can be eaten raw, last I checked, and so tubers could only have been eaten in a big way once cooking got started c.250,000 years ago, hardly the dawn of time.
As for LC, the evidence shows that HGs would eat some raw carbs, going up to as much as 25% of diet by calorie. not necessarily low-carb, that.
As for Matt Stone's stuff, isn't that that nonsense re eating vast amounts of mostly anything even junk-foods?
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That's the second time I've seen someone claim on this forum that cooking goes back to the dawn of time, or to that effect. Jared, where did you get that idea--was it from Wrangham?
Tyler, what are the traditional methods of processing tubers before cooking them? I have a friend who eats cooked tubers and doesn't want to give them up. I figure traditional methods would at least be an improvement over modern methods of just baking at high heat. I do have info from a blog on the cooking part of traditional tuber processing--baked at lower temps for a longer time period than the modern baking method.
I think Matt Stone's "Eat More Everything” diet might be just an initial phase of the diet or the mainstay of the diet, but my memory is fuzzy on this.
As I've mentioned before, 25% carbs is only half of the carbs of the average American diet and, if IIRC, the Kitavans eat far more carbs than that (I think Lindeberg reported 70% avg carbs in the Kitavan diet). I consider 25% low carb, as do some gurus who call themselves low carb. This is part of why I find your frequently demonstrated animosity toward low carb puzzling, since I view your own diet as low carb. My guess would be that you eat less carbs than Stone, for example, though I could be wrong.
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Not quite the dawn of time. Besides, wild chimpanzees have been eating fruits for over 5 million years and still get cavities from them--much more cavities than wild carnivores like wolves and big cats. Plus giant pandas have been eating bamboo for many millions of years and still are not morphologically adapted to it, as several of the scientists that study them admit. I have written extensively about both these cases in this forum.
Say one was to only eat raw meat, and not brush their teeth. If they were then to continue in the same way, but casually add in some fruit, but feel no reliance upon it would they be able to tell if they were in danger of suffering from anything such as cavities in plenty of time before it happened, so that they could ease off or modify their behaviours/choices? Or is it a thing which can occur without significant prior warning(although I highlighted cavities, I'm also interested in other oral conditions with similar causes)?
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It would make sense to me that wild carnivores, while not suffering dental caries (as far as I know, at least not to the level of chimps) have teeth that have problems like many other animals (perhaps all) as they age. I know that their teeth systematically wear away to the point that they cannot chew their meat and eventually starve.
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Teeth wearing is a result of literal physical wearing of the teeth and has nothing to do with dental or oral pathologies like caries and gum disease. BTW, nonfrugivorous chimps like the leaf-eating herbivorous mountain gorillas and carnivorous (faunivorous) tarsiers also are much less prone to caries than frugivorous chimps, according to what I've read on this in the past. Carnivores and herbivores do get caries, but not to the extent that frugivores do.
Not only humans, but chimps know to use dental care to offset the effects of the fruit. Chimps reportedly select twigs and sticks from trees that have antibiotic oils (humans also use these trees for the same purpose and sell the oils as "tea tree oil" and neem dental products). This behavior is most likely learned by the youths, probably from a combination of the adults' example and teaching/demonstration. Perhaps chimps notice that these twigs make their mouths feel better, or perhaps they know that not using them can lead to painful gums and maybe they even know that neglect can eventually lead to very painful teeth (caries).
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Teeth wearing is a result of literal physical wearing of the teeth and has nothing to do with dental or oral pathologies like caries and gum disease.
Yes and perhaps this is obvious to everyone else, but I find it interesting that diet does not protect them from succumbing to non-functional teeth. Seems like we will die unfortunately.
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That's the second time I've seen someone claim on this forum that cooking goes back to the dawn of time, or to that effect. Jared, where did you get that idea--was it from Wrangham?
Sorry- I'm probably not as well read as y'all. I came up with the cooking tubers idea myself as a way to reconcile with the new idea that maybe humans can handle carbs. The prehistory/evolutionary standpoint is huge chunk of the no carb argument, but really, should we base our lives on some very scant and vague evidence, either way? What did they base the fire c.250,000 years ago thing on-- that we have found no ash layers in caves below this time? Well, maybe not in the few specific places we've looked, or can look. Actually, that's one of the farther back estimates I've heard; seems like adaption could have definitely taken place since then.
The thing is, it's entirely plausible that prehistoric humans/hominins were smarter than we're making them out to be, in terms of processing and storing food. Hunger is a feeling that we work to avoid, and they probably did too. I take it even farther-- I think that agriculture was not out of their means as well. The concept is pretty self evident, if you want more of a plant that feeds you. Grains are questionable because they are so small and inedible-- I think our first attention to grains started with beer actually. It's also not a leap to think that hominins might have messed around with leaving things in water, and found that mashed-up seeds did something. As they've hypothesized with the Egyptians, bread came soon after, originally intended as a storage device to harbor the beer-making yeast in the raw center.
I even wonder why humans have such a sweet tooth, when apparently, at least in most places in the world, there is such a short supply of fructose. Well, with all of those graphs of how low sugar and honey consumption was pre-1850, I think one source they probably are not accounting for is jams and jellies. This is actually where I think people have been getting their fructose throughout history. It was probably a good way to store and concentrate the calories from large yields of fruit. Trade is certainly plausible too, just like Lewis and Clark found networks trading sea-salt (pretty sure). And wasn't it the Native Americans that showed the Europeans how to make maple syrup? What should we trust more: the numbers or our senses?
That said, humans most likely do consume more fructose than ever before. This could be because:
1) We just like the taste of quick easy calories, or
2) We have an unnatural modern attraction to it for its LDL cholesterol, uric acid, or triglyceride raising effects, which are what the body tries to do on its own in the case of metabolic syndrome. I've also heard (raypeat.com) that it's good for the adrenals somehow.
Tyler, what are the traditional methods of processing tubers before cooking them? I have a friend who eats cooked tubers and doesn't want to give them up. I figure traditional methods would at least be an improvement over modern methods of just baking at high heat. I do have info from a blog on the cooking part of traditional tuber processing--baked at lower temps for a longer time period than the modern baking method.
I think of how WAP said the aboriginies cooked their vegetables at very high temps for very long times.
Here's something that confuses me-- they say potatoes are a good source of vitamin C, but isn't it destroyed by the heat?
I think Matt Stone's "Eat More Everything” diet might be just an initial phase of the diet or the mainstay of the diet, but my memory is fuzzy on this.
Yes, it's just a tool to correct low metabolism, according to him. He doesn't say it should be long term, or that everyone should do it.
Also, I have a thread going about this in the LC/ZC forum.
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Seems like we will die unfortunately.
Yeah, I had taken that pretty much for granted. :D
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Sorry- I'm probably not as well read as y'all. I came up with the cooking tubers idea myself as a way to reconcile with the new idea that maybe humans can handle carbs. The prehistory/evolutionary standpoint is huge chunk of the no carb argument, but really, should we base our lives on some very scant and vague evidence, either way?
Are you assuming that someone here does?
What did they base the fire c.250,000 years ago thing on-- that we have found no ash layers in caves below this time?
No, instead of trying to guess how that figure was arrived at (and others), why not look into it, if you're interested, and decide for yourself? I suspect that 250,000 years is probably a conservative estimate. I don't know what the exact correct date is myself and don't particularly care, as I see it as largely irrelevant. As I've noted many times before, the giant panda still hasn't adapted morphologically to its bamboo diet after millions of years of eating mostly bamboo. No one knows that we have adapted to cooking-they just make that assumption to support their practice of eating cooked food. The best test is to do what we have done here and try both cooked and raw diets and see which you do best on.
Well, maybe not in the few specific places we've looked, or can look. Actually, that's one of the farther back estimates I've heard; seems like adaption could have definitely taken place since then.
MAYBE it could have--but NOT definitely. No one knows definitely--even Wrangham admits he doesn't know for certain. It sounds like you're looking for justification for your current practice rather than seeking the truth. If you want justification, you won't get it here in a raw forum.
Good luck with whatever path you choose. :)
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As I've noted many times before, the giant panda still hasn't adapted morphologically to its bamboo diet after millions of years of eating mostly bamboo.
But, a bamboo diet would still give it a better quality of life than any other food..?
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But, a bamboo diet would still give it a better quality of life than any other food..?
Based on what? I don't know what the "optimal" diet for giant pandas would be from a human "quality of life" perspective, but the evidence is pretty clear that their morphology is still highly carnivorous, they are not completely adapted to bamboo, and certain issues they suffer even in the wild (such as low fertility) have been linked to this incomplete adaptation.
We can't get into the minds of the pandas, of course, but it's just as plausible (and probably more so) that they eat bamboo because they like it than because their health does better on it than other foods.
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Edited-- sorry, it was late, I have to think about what I wrote... hope you're not writing a long response :(
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Edited-- sorry, it was late, I have to think about what I wrote... hope you're not writing a long response :(
Luckily I don't think I saw your original version. ;D BTW, if you're planning on refuting what I wrote about giant pandas, I would appreciate it if you'd check out my past posts and cited sources on the subject, so I don't have to rehash much. Giant pandas appear to contradict a number of sacred cows, so it requires a very open mind to be willing to investigate them much, but I highly recommend it (I've also found comparing herbivorous and faunivorous primates to frugivorous primates to be rather interesting). My tolerance for rehashing is gradually diminishing on this forum as I learn more and as what's left that's new to me thereby decreases. I believe I still have a lot to learn about giant pandas and other subjects, but when I'm not learning anything new, my interest tends to wane. I'm much less into debating than learning, believe it or not, though debating can be useful in putting new ideas to the test. I'll try to avoid getting cranky, though. Not easy for an ol' grump like me. ;)
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I wonder if all species are somewhat maladapted to the current environment since the earth has warmed substantially in the last 10k years. With some species such as the panda having the worst of it though lucky enough to find an ecological niche to survive. Perhaps their diet included more meat when it was colder(?) Other species such as humans clearly took a wrong turn once the megafauna died out and became addicted to grain. I wonder if the great cats would be better fed and would not have the teeth issues if the larger game with more fat reserves were around. Isn't it true that the animals like the mammoth (and elephant) are a higher percentage of fat than the other African deer-type species? Also, I would assume the colder weather would likely necessitate a larger amount of body fat for all animals, especially in the winter.
The same thing kind of thinking can be applied to all species since the earth has (I believe) been cooler than it is now for a much higher percentage of the time. Perhaps frugivorous primates did not have the selection of fruit they do now and suffer some mild consequences with some cavities that they would not have been exposed to in the past.
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I'm going too off topic, and it's one of my areas of interest, so I stuck my reply into a new panda thread: http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/carnivorous-zero-carb-approach/incomplete-adaptation-giant-pandas-humans-and-more/msg39709/#msg39709
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Hi Jared,
Thanks for posting the update. I had been doing research on my options for orthodontics and had remembered this thread. I think my problems may be simple enough to correct with invisalign or an alf like device. I'm not sure if I should go to a typical dentist, an osteopath, or an md specializing in this field for a consultation. I know my palate needs to be widened and teeth straighted (neither are really that bad) and want to do it with as minimal invasion as possible. I don't think I need surgery, although it was recommended to me some years ago when I was diagnosed with sleep apnea. I am curious to know any further progress or direction you're going in.
Interestingly enough, I have also been off the raw paleo diet for some time now (I still eat raw on a weekly basis, but probably 90% cooked now). And have recently been eating increasing amounts of cooked starches in large part to reading matt's blog since cooked low carb wasn't doing alot for me. Although I think Matt has some good ideas, I take what I read there with a large grain of salt. In other words it's a good blog to get ideas from, but best to experiment yourself. His approach of overfeeding to up the metabolism is simplistic. I think the best take away I've had is really the importance of eating enough. Forcing calories down has not had any benefit for me, although I have not really tried the full 30 days of overfeeding as I don't think the approach is what I need, nor do I think it's the most intelligent approach to healing a metabolism.
I will say in passing that when I was raw paleo there were sometimes when my palate seemed wider and and more willing to move into place. This usually occurred when I ate bone marrow or suet in large quantities. Interestingly I have experienced this same effect of temporary widening on a cooked diet + supplements (magnesium). It seems to occur more at random or when taking magnesium supplements (but this is also not reliably observed). Unfortunately it never stays like this and my skull/jaw eventually reverts to a compressed state, I think the bite alignment may have alot to do with creating a sort of "setpoint". It definitely feels like my jaw wants to move forward and I am constantly jutting it forward as that is the most comfortable for me, but it keeps getting put back when chewing or sleeping. I have noticed other people will vary slightly in the definition of their jaw/chin from a day to day basis, always reverting back to a set point of sorts. I think stress/hormones have something to do with it... as far as jaw definition I have noticed lifting and sprinting seem to improve jaw definition and sleep deprivation worsens it considerably.
Anyway keep us posted. I will try to comment as well if I decide to go with any treatment.
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Hi guys,
I stopped the ALF treatment a few months ago. But I didn't feel like writing more about it then because it was just too disappointing. I wasted thousands of dollars, and my bite is non-functional, because I have "buildups" on the molars, and looks stupid with the teeth all jutting forward in front. Chewing is painful. I'm a mess.
Anyways, I wasn't completely convinced that the ALF did nothing for my skull until I put together this video of before and after x-rays. See it here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdxEsft8U20
It wasn't the best quality "after" x-ray-- it's all my practitioner would provide me at the time. I had to resize it and turn it to match it up properly, which is what they should have done too, if they really wanted to discover the truth.
I also sent a letter to Dr. Nordstrom, the inventor of the ALF, since my practitioner had been with him discussing my case and how "successful" it was. But also I was complaining. He's responsible for sucking people like me in with his claims as anyone. He responded defensively-- basically you can see his comments on the youtube video. I could have replied, but it's just no use. These people are going to believe what they want. Let the buyer beware.
One thing I didn't clarify with him-- I still believe the ALF may change the bones in the head when used in a developing child. So yeah, parents should definitely try this as opposed to extracting teeth, or harsh palate wideners that expand in intervals when you turn it with a key, as I had when I was a kid. The most striking evidence of this was an experiment done with identical twin girls, which you can see pictures of in this article:
http://www.westonaprice.org/dentistry/1733-from-attention-deficit-to-sleep-apnea.html
Unfortunately for the less fortunate twin, it was the standard practice of the time to remove teeth for crowded palates. Only x-rays like my own would tell for sure what the differences there were in skull development, but it would be downright cruel to repeat this experiment.
But in adults, as far as I know, there is no such evidence. So I wouldn't believe it. It's kind of a ridiculous idea, but I was desperate to believe it, as I'm sure many are.
I should write to the WAPF to warn others, because I do think they're at least honest. But I just don't have the will to.
I'm quite self-conscious about my looks. I wonder if it's simply a major impediment in my life, or the major impediment in my life. It's a terrible curse. I'd think I have "Body Dismorphic Disorder" if there weren't evidence that this is an actual deficiency. I wasn't supposed to be like this.
Basically the only way to even sort of fix this is craniofacial surgery. I was trying to go the cheaper and more natural route with the ALF, but it just didn't work. It's just disheartening to think that I'd have to fight so hard to even get a chance of having the personal confidence that most other people have never had to worry about. And if it looked the least bit weird, it would still suck. People want good nature, not a damn surgery.
I shouldn't be so disheartened though. I've seen a few really good results with surgery. I'd just want to make sure I got the best. You know, with full 3d modeling and manipulation. Ideally there could be someway to tell what my skull was supposed to look like, but I doubt anyone does that. Because that's the only way I could be sure it could look natural. It seems as though my whole skull should be expanded, but I don't know if they do that.
Like see, this isn't bad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StdoLxmjImQ
And there's this. That's like, WHHHOOOOAAAAA.
(http://www.baoms.org.uk/downloaddoc.asp?id=56)
But yeah, the biggest obstacle of course is the money. And especially because I don't want just anybody, but really the best that can be done for me. But I don't have money, and I can't get money. I don't even want to work because I'm so depressed and fatigued all the time. What to do guys? Shit just sucks. I'm 25. I'd think that it has to be soon or never. I still have a youthful body that could heal well, but that probably won't last much longer.
As for my fatigue, I'm trying a shot in the dark liver treatment I found on Google. See here: http://www.sensiblehealth.com/. Sorry to get off-topic again, but please feel free to give any advice.
:'(
... I have also been off the raw paleo diet for some time now (I still eat raw on a weekly basis, but probably 90% cooked now). And have recently been eating increasing amounts of cooked starches in large part to reading matt's blog since cooked low carb wasn't doing alot for me. Although I think Matt has some good ideas, I take what I read there with a large grain of salt. In other words it's a good blog to get ideas from, but best to experiment yourself. His approach of overfeeding to up the metabolism is simplistic. I think the best take away I've had is really the importance of eating enough. Forcing calories down has not had any benefit for me...
Nice to hear it. Yeah, I briefly tried overfeeding too, but it didn't work for me. Then, more recently, he suggested people try eating a high protein breakfast, and 80% of their calories within the first half of the day. This is an interesting idea, and seems to jive with stories I've heard of how wealthy successful businessmen in the old days used to get up early and have a ridiculously large meat-filled breakfast. Successful? Wealthy? Early? Yes, sounds good to me! But no, I tried it, and I just get too fatigued when I eat a meal that large. This would make sense if I have trouble digesting, which may go with the current theory about the liver that I gave the link to above.
So yeah, I'm skeptical of Matt too, but boy does he continue to seek answers and learn more. He's determined to figure this stuff out better than anyone, and what a value to our society to have someone like that. At least he got us unafraid of carbs so far. :)
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Thanks for confirming my suspicions, Jared, although the "after" image looks a little better than the "before," but that doesn't mean it's actually an improvement, of course. Failure stores are even more valuable than success stories. They warn us what to avoid. I'm just sorry you had to experience the failure for the rest of us to learn from it. I hope you do share your experiences with the WAPF, and if they ignore them then I hope you do some sharing with WAPF followers, such as at the WAPF blog, here: http://www.westonaprice.org/dentistry/279-mental-or-dental.html.
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Jared,
is your situation really that desperate? Can't you live with what you have? I think there are many ways for healing besides manipulating the jaw / skull. Some things we just have to accept. That doesn't mean they won't change later, but for the sake of inner peace accepting may be the best for now.
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I just had an idea... not sure if it's a good idea and possibly harmful... What if I put pressure on my nasal cavity... I would do that by either closing my nose with my fingers or closing the airstream inside my nos by contracting the muscles in there and exhaling at the same time. Could that encourage a widening of the airstream / skull? Just an idea, maybe somebody can comment on it.
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Long before you widened your skull, if it were somehow possible, you'd likely damage your eardrums, sinuses or even brain, according to Professor Adam Carey, a sports injury specialist:
"The second type of injury is caused if we try to suppress a sneeze, before letting it out. The suppression causes a massive build-up of pressure in our head, which can cause injuries such as a burst eardrum, tearing blood vessels and muscles in the head, damaging the sinuses and even, in rare cases, brain haemorrhages."
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1223959/Burst-eardrums-broken-backs-death--dangers-sneezing.html#ixzz11EYsqfo6
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I just had an idea... not sure if it's a good idea and possibly harmful... What if I put pressure on my nasal cavity... I would do that by either closing my nose with my fingers or closing the airstream inside my nos by contracting the muscles in there and exhaling at the same time. Could that encourage a widening of the airstream / skull? Just an idea, maybe somebody can comment on it.
Maybe that would be something like what this guy does?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ9BZDP6Kj8
I knew about this video for a while but was reluctant to post it here, because basically I don't believe it does anything. But whatever, feel free to judge for yourself.
is your situation really that desperate? Can't you live with what you have? I think there are many ways for healing besides manipulating the jaw / skull. Some things we just have to accept. That doesn't mean they won't change later, but for the sake of inner peace accepting may be the best for now.
It sure is desperate. Like I said, I'm not sure how much of a problem it is for me, because I have two other major problems: cognitive difficulties (lifelong) and chronic fatigue (since teen years). I've had a frustrating and confusing life, because I've been so inhibited in these ways. I've been severely depressed for about 7 years-- the lack of being able to live normally has really taken its toll. But anyways, if I am to have any hope of ever recovering, I at least know what needs to be done with this problem. And, like I said, I don't think I could get the best results if I waited much longer.
I think it is a major inhibition in my life. I notice that ugliness makes me restrain confidence, in any situation. I'm not terrible looking, but my ambitions and standards are probably above your average person's. I can't really guess what a change in appearance might do for me. But it is important. People respond better to good nature, whether they want to be biased or not. On a movie poster, it's the movie star's face that tells the whole story, and gets people in the theater. It's a delicate subject, but, there are doctors who do it. And, maybe it'll even fix (or make up for) the other two problems. At worst, I have nothing to lose, because I can't live this way, whatever the problem.
Anyways I'm planning to write to some craniofacial surgeons around the world. I dunno, maybe they'll take pity on me, or have some grant money or something. I know, it's unrealistic, but I just want to gather my feelings and get on the map. Money is the main issue. Maybe they'd just let me acquire a debt, or have some other suggestions. I'd have to write a better letter than this, but whatever man, I just stayed up all night and I'm POSTING IT. :)
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I thought the effect would be more like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ngRpnBN3ag&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ngRpnBN3ag&feature=related)
They access it through the nose, they use pressure... but maybe the pressure needs to be so high it would blow your eardrums lol... no idea...
You posted that stuff about Matt Stone and Insulin posts, right? Have you tried RRARF and to what effect?
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Thank you everyone. I don't have anything to contribute, but it's good reading and watching/listening.
Do you have a recommended way to find a good specialist?
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You posted that stuff about Matt Stone and Insulin posts, right? Have you tried RRARF and to what effect?
I did answer this, but, I know, there's a lot of writing to get through here. No, I didn't have any effects, but like letifer mentioned, Matt's point might be good at least for getting people to eat enough. I like the idea that calories are good for you; and if you are to get enough, it's probably easier by including carbs. Don't be afraid of glucose-- cells put it to good use! Well, unless you have a problem managing glucose levels, which I can't help you with there.
Also, I've also posted on NCR... just look for it earlier in this thread. Should be easy to find because I have that same youtube video there. I give my reasons for not trusting that either.
Thank you everyone. I don't have anything to contribute, but it's good reading and watching/listening.
Yeah, and I'm thankful for my small audience here! I actually hope to reach a larger audience someday on this important and overlooked subject. We'll see if it works out for me...
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I did answer this, but, I know, there's a lot of writing to get through here. No, I didn't have any effects, but like letifer mentioned, Matt's point might be good at least for getting people to eat enough. I like the idea that calories are good for you; and if you are to get enough, it's probably easier by including carbs. Don't be afraid of glucose-- cells put it to good use! Well, unless you have a problem managing glucose levels, which I can't help you with there.
It's not like I'm asking for help lol.
I'm experimenting with the RARF and it's been doing me a lot of good. I'm tolerating food a lot better now. Dairy is still highly problematic though. Recently I've added lots of spices, increased fat (was very low before, almost no added fat), added some sugar (rapadura) and keeping protein rather low. My energy is increasing, working out feels better than in a long long time, but sleep still sucks. I believe that is due to non-diet-related causes though. Dabbling in ayurveda now...
Also, I've also posted on NCR... just look for it earlier in this thread. Should be easy to find because I have that same youtube video there. I give my reasons for not trusting that either.
Yeah, I saw that you posted it before. But I didn't watch the "Face Restructuring" video properly... He does mention NCR and he says he is using the same principles... For sure I wouldn't try NCR, it seems so bogus. I'll try what the guy in the video suggests, after all it's for free.
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Thanks so much for posting your video Jared. That is extremely valuable and cautionary hard evidence. I just saw the updates to this thread today, which is unfortunate because I thought I was subscribed to receiving new posts...
I've seen 2 conventional orthodontists in the past month for consultations for damon braces and invisialign. Invisialign seems like a clear loser as far as widening the palate is concerned. Damon braces on the other hand appear to have this potential, but I was unable to get either ortho to really say whether this was a realistic expectation. The first said that any growth at my age "was likely done", and the second just said the invisalign and the damon system were going to achieve the same results.. I did not directly ask if the braces would make my palate wider, I've been meaning to write an email to her. I did some research on the braces system afterward and found this: http://www.ormco.com/index/damon-casestudies-crowdedcases-2
The right column has the adult cases and if you go down to the bottom of the pdf files they show measurements of the lateral width of the palate. I cannot seem to unequivocally find out if this is actual bone growth that's going on or mere repositioning of the teeth. Part of their marketing is that these are cases that would have required extractions with regular braces, but that due to the increased space created, extractions were not required. Treatment for me would be 12 months and 6-7k. Honestly I am not looking forward to have metal in my mouth for a year which is why the invisalign alternative was appealing to me, but I get the impression invisalign is kinda worthless except for straightening teeth which I am not all that interested in. I have an appointment to see a dentist that uses the homeoblock to inquire about it. Short notice I know, but do you guys think I should ask anything in particular?
As a side note, I think I have experienced some changes facially naturally from weight lifting, jaw exercises, (really just pushing the palate with the tongue) and trying to sleep with my mouth close and on my back, etc. My palate is not wider, but facial features more favorable. I really don't know if there is any structural changes, but I think the facial muscles have a lot to do with the way your face looks. The tongue is nature's orthodontic device, so I think you can manipulate it to achieve somewhat minute facial changes. I don't know that it's enough when you're an adult to make any permanent changes though..
As a word of encouragement Jared, I have the same obsession with looks, but I know in many ways it doesn't matter nearly as much as I think it does. It's sure to vary based on your profession, but I can tell you the majority of people don't really care how you look compared to how you perform. I know and have met attractive people with symmetrical faces and broad smiles that are idiots. Most successful people I meet are unattractive and alot of attractive people unsuccessful. There seems to be some truth to the stereotypical "popular jock in high school becomes underachiever and nerd in high school becomes successful" narrative. I think good looking people tend to coast on their fortune, where as others have to compensate by overachieving in some other area. Now I'd be lying if I said I didn't hope for some aesthetic enhancement if I do go with some treatment, but if can get my mouth to the point where my tongue fits and I can breath well and chew properly, yet look exactly the same, I would be ecstatic. I'm more afraid of unfavorable aesthetic changes at this point. Anyway, keep eating nutritious food, healing your digestion (enzymes and kefir are working for me, dropped all other supplements save vit. D), getting proper sleep, reducing stress (so important!) and finding something to enjoy in life. Taking this general approach my thyroid problems finally resolved themselves and my free t3 is in the upper third of normal as opposed to being in the gutter; I feel much better and have a renewed vigor so I know the body can heal and correct itself if you give it what it needs. Cheers mate.
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To give you guys an update I saw a dentist that works with functional appliances. I had initially been interested in the homeo-block, but he was quick to see that this was not the appropriate device as it would encourage jaw growth downward (think of growth happening rotationally). I was able to look at a book he had of various appliances, and there are at least dozens of these things out there. Unfortunately it's nearly impossible to find a dentist or orthodontics that is well versed in functional orthodontics (it is apparently much more common in Europe). I can't seem to find this book online and I'm not totally sure I got the names right, but a modified Schwartz appliance may be the appliance he chooses for me. I'd wear an appliance on the top and a separate one for the bottom. I will know much more at the next consultation where the analysis of the x-rays and molds has been done. The good news was that treatment would be 9-15 months and half the cost of traditional braces and If I want braces after the functional treatment I think it would be an extra couple thousand. Very reasonable quote imo.
My impression of the guy was pretty good and he took the time to explain things and answer my questions. He's been doing this for 7 years and showed me examples of some of his patients. One case of a 19 yr old was pretty dramatic as he showed me the before/after molds. At any rate I am cautiously optimistic. I've already gotten the molds and x-rays and will probably decide if I will go with it a month from now at the second visit. If I do start I'll be starting in January and could be done (minus braces if I wanted) a year from now best case.
By the way, after visiting here I was reminded I haven't eaten liver in a while. So I've eaten about 1/2 lb of raw liver the past couple days and I could swear my palate seems more relaxed and would expand if the pressure was there. Often times my head feels like it's compressing inward and collapsing, but "loosend" up these past 2 days. My tongue rests a little more comfortably. Take it with a grain of salt as my sinuses also cleared up from a brush with a cold, so it could be something else. Even so there I think there could theoretically be something like a 250nm fluctuation in palatal width in a short time period.
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Hi all, I'm new here to the site. My family and I have been eating W.P. for about 5 years.... I'm looking to go more raw paleo though. Anywho I have 3 kids, 9...11...13 and I've been done what I can for them over the past 5 years of finding and eating clean etc. But it wasn't enough for full genetic cranial expression.
I found this site (PLEASE scroll down to the bottom of the screen and watch the 2 videos, they're each about 7 minutes long) .... http://www.orthotropics.com/#
So for any of you who have young children, please take note that NOW is the time to act if their growth is taking an unfavorable direction. You would know that by measuring them. The last paragraph at the bottom of this page entitled "Where should the teeth be?" http://www.orthotropics.com/patients_parents/parents_earlysigns.html
My oldest daughter (who has been eating a nutrient dense diet for 5 years now) is 13. It seems most of her growth is done already so we missed out on using it as a guide for favorable growth of down and forward (as well as outward) of the jaws and palate. However they are willing to treat her in order to correct her class III mallocclusion aka underbite, with whatever little growth she does have left.... as well as lateral expand her palate. She has worn the appliance in conjunction with forward pulling protraction gear for 5 weeks now. We went for an adjustment appointment 2 days ago and they told us to STOP!!!! They didn't expect so much movement. The projected treatment time was 4 months to a year. It was 5 weeks :-* I have heard that people who eat nutrient dense diets have faster movement.... but ..... this was crazy. She's not done yet though, they're giving her a little break on wearing the protraction gear, but in about a week or 2 she's going to have to put it back on. The expansion is DONE though.
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Worth a bump. I have just written an update on the other thread about approaching my first year of using ALFs:
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/a-l-f-where-to-find-them-and-how-to-get-them/msg62838/#msg62838 (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/a-l-f-where-to-find-them-and-how-to-get-them/msg62838/#msg62838)
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Hi guys,
I know this is an old post but I thought I'd post my experience here.
"Now I'd be lying if I said I didn't hope for some aesthetic enhancement if I do go with some treatment, but if can get my mouth to the point where my tongue fits and I can breath well and chew properly, yet look exactly the same, I would be ecstatic."
This is exactly how I felt a year ago. It took me many long distance phone calls (because I'm from a hick town) to find a functional Orthodontist that specialises in braces/expanders, etc...
Well, needless to say I found 1 in my little hick town that does Damon and was even on the cover of TIME's Magazine for being one of the best Orthos in the country. Who would've thought.
Anyways:
I had a small upper dental arch my entire life, so narrow at the premolars that my lower jaw had to be held far back to meet the teeth. My upper palate is narrow and long, which gave me buck teeth (not too bad) and a deep bite.
My mother placed me on my belly as a baby and faced my head to the left every night. She said taht was the only position I would sleep in and she just picked a side for my head. Well...when you put the same pressure on a growing skull, at the same part of that skull...you will give this baby a skull deformity because this is the way the bones will grow. And that is exactly what happened. The right side of my face is flatter (kind of like what Peruvian Indians did by placing a flat board on the back of babies heads to give them high skulls but flatttened bone structure on the back of the skull), and the teeth/palate is narrower on that side than the side that had always faced up.
Now, nutrition might have something to do with it on top of the sleeping position, but since i know 100% that my mother did this, night after night, I don't doubt at all that this is what caused this deformity in the first place.
I have had the Damon system in my mouth now for a year and it's made a HUGE difference in the feel of my skull.
My tongue was too big for my mouth, could not rest it in my upper palate and so had to rest in my lower jaw. My lower jaw used to 'hang' there and had to be kept shut with muscle strength which caused tension. I clenched over night during sleep causing more tension. I had TMJ popping and Lockjaw, which I needed surgery to open up as a result of an uneven occlusion. My sinus also always used to be stuffy, narrow and full of crap. The mucus was usually dried up and only nasalsprays and a sinus flush could losen this dried up crap up to clear my nose.
Forward to 1 year in self-ligating braces and expanding archwire:
My sinus is always clear and the mucus that builds up once in awhile is lose and easy to blow out. I am off nasalsprays and sinus flushes. My upper arch expanded to the point of having enough room for my tongue, which now rests peacefully inside my upper palate. Both of my dental arches have expanded enough to get rid of all the crowding and teeth look somewhat straight (still rotating some, not finished yet). I used to feel like a defective human, this feeling is now gone. I feel more primally, especially since eating Paleo/Primal for the last 1.5 yrs.
Eating primally did not fix my defective feeling though, something else was wrong and this was it!
My face did not widen from what I can see but the back molars now fill in the back of my mouth. Before you coulnd't see passed my first 8 teeth. My cheekbones seem more prominent.
I am a Dinarid by race and knew I couldn't and shouldn't have a wide face. My ears are set far back on my head. My natural dental arch is a long one anyways, rather than short and wide. With this 'expansion' of the dental arch (not to be confused with palate bone) it brought some of the teeth forward (because it got wider) and gives me tons of room in the back. I could probably place another half molar behind my wisdom teeth.
Anyways, before this gets too long...there is hope for everyone.
Jared might be a racial type that isn't meant to have a wide palate. Having a narrow head doesn't always mean there is something nutritionally wrong. Just research dinaric race and you'll understand. There are also African races that actually have narrow heads, but are 'wide' the other direction.
The feeling of being able to place the tongue in the upper palate and resting my mouth comfortably, without ever having to adjust my lower jaw or licking my lips or having any other facial ticks, is PRICELESS!
Good Luck to everyone!
Waldpfad
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Thanks for that, wonder how everyone else is going with theirs?
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Waldpfad, does your jaw still hang?
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So enough with the suspense, what's the name of the orthodontist and do you have a link to the TIME Magazine article?
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Okay, after spending 30 minutes in Google trying to find the cover of TIME magazine images for 2010, nothing but other crap has showed up.
I can't remember which month it was. I think I showed up for my first adjustment after getting braces which was November 2010 and he had the Magazine framed standing at the entrance desk...showing it off.
On my next appointment I will certainly ask which month that was puplished and let you know.
His name is Dr. Troy Alan Williams and he is located in Twin Falls, Idaho. He also has a physicians of the year award from 2004. The praxis is called Braces R Us.
My jaw does not 'hang' there anymore, although atm non of my teeth fit since I just had my wire bent again last Wednesday and all my teeth are on the move. My top canines sit like 1/2 mm too far down, which looks good, but is not functional for me because the lower canines are also long and kinda hit the tops. So he is moving the upper out...and in 6 weeks we will see how it all fits. If they're still in the way then he will move them back up a bit so I don't clash my canines together. The lower jaw seems to be a bit more flexible than the upper and it expanded faster, I sometimes have to have a power chain on my lower jaw to keep things from moving too fast. I hate the power chain ...
At night, my jaw is relaxed and I don't feel like I have to hold my jaw in place to keep it from popping, clenching and whatnot. I used to sleep with an extra pillow under my lower jaw to keep it from hanging. I sleep on my side and belly. If my lower jaw didn't have the support, I would wake up with severe headaches and tension in my face and jaw and at times it felt like my lower jaw was dislocated (which it wasn't).
Not knowing where to put the lower jaw my entire life has really given me a ton of stress, unconcious stress. I knew something was wrong but I didn't know what it was until I read WAPF's article 'Is it Mental or Dental?'. I bought his book 'Nutrition and Physical Degeneration' and immediately called my mother to dog her out!
I've been on a Primal 'diet' since April 2010 and braces were put on end of September the same year. He borrowed my book (not sure if he read it all) and was fascinated about my printed -'Is it Dental or Mental'- article. He asked to keep it to show to future adult patients.
I am so glad I found Dr. Williams. The consultations I had with all the other Orthos all suggested surgery + additional braces afterwards, but also, non of those had self-ligating brackets in their office. They all used conventional braces. I was referred to Dr. Williams by an Orthodontist who wasn't afraid to admit that this is something he cannot do, his name was Dr. Geist and does surgery to widen the dental arch/palate, and then slaps on train tracks to just straighten teeth...which in reality doesn't correct the bite imo.
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Also, I think people should just put up with their slight deformities in the face, but correct the bite accordingly.
The disfigurement is kinda set in stone once you stop growing and to correct the entire head bones, surgery is certainly needed.
The right side of my face will always be slightly flatter and my eyeball not as high, but non of this will give me any pain anymore because the bite surface, the foundation of the face, is corrected.
Oh if parents only knew what they do to their kids when they don't go to an Orthodontist at age 10 or so... Most want kids just for themselves, for whatever selfish reason and don't plan ahead moneywise to REALLY take care of a child. Instead of having 1 kid and taking care of it 100%, they have 4 or more and give each of them 25% care or less...which is usually toys or fancy clothing.
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Thanks much for sharing this success story. Do you have a link to the "Is it Mental or Dental?" article?
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Here is a link to the article.
http://www.westonaprice.org/dentistry/mental-or-dental (http://www.westonaprice.org/dentistry/mental-or-dental)
Note though that Weston Price focuses on races that have naturally a broad face, not a wide face into the other direction, from nose to ear.
People with broad faces are shorter from nose to ear and usually have a lot more head left behind the ear. While other races might have a seemingly narrow face, but prominent cheekbones and oval shaped heads with a long distance between nose and ears (middle east, Balkan region, some tribes in Africa, european dinarid).
Regardless of the shape of the actual palate, the dental arch should be wide enough to properly place the tongue into the upper palate and all of the teeth should touch comfortably when resting (height of teeth within the bone). No need to go any further than that, perfectly straight teeth or not. The back molars should be vertically under your iris...not near the inside of the eyeball or worse. The tongue also should be snug inside the palate, not rolled up, not totally lose, and not forced into the lower palate because it feels too big (which it isn't, the arch is too narrow). The tongue should make contact with teeth, otherwise it wouldn't be natures own expansion device. The ripples on the upper palate are normal, all mammals have them, even fish.
Also most people are confused about palate vs. dental arch. The palate is the horizontal part of the bone, the dental arch is the verticle bone the teeth sit in. Technically, the lower jaw has no 'palate'.