Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Members' Journals => Journals => Topic started by: Raw Kyle on August 14, 2008, 12:11:37 am
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Ok first off I'm going to put a disclaimer that I don't really feel like keeping a journal. However I think it would be good for me because it's hard to stay on the straight and narrow when you're on your own and a journal might make me feel differently.
I haven't eaten anything yet today but as it looks now I'm going to eat a beef muscle/suet mixture and possibly some organs. I don't measure my food intake (I'm thinking of getting a scale for that soon) but I put a good amount of beef muscle in my food processor and then put a little less (by volume, more than half but not much) of suet and chop them up together. I don't have any fruits or veggies in the house right now but am planning a possible trip to the hfs for blueberries, honey and a couple of other things to try and make a raw ketchup (from Juliano's Raw recipe book) and also horseradish to blend in (an attempt at raw cocktail sauce which if successful will be eaten with oysters in the near future).
So for today I'll probably eat two meals of beef muscle/suet and some blueberries. I'm going to do a kettlebell workout and then Brazilian jiu jit su class tonight for exercise. I find that going to the gym every day helps me keep on my diet every day, and vice versa. It's easy to eat junk when you're not exercising and taxing your body and it's easy to not want to exercise when you eat junk.
That's all for now, thanks for reading and I'll try and put at least one post a day about what I'm eating and what my exercise regimen is.
Oh one more thing I'll put my weight during the day on here. I think I'd like to gain some weight, right now I'm right around 155 lbs and would probably feel and look better closer to 170. The only thing that makes me question this jump is having to compete (in martial arts) against much bigger guys. But really that's a silly reason to keep my weight lower than I think would be optimum for me.
Today's weight at 12:11 p.m. + = 157.6 lbs
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How tall are you?
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I just measured because I wasn't really sure and according to a pencil on the wall line measured with a metal measuring tape I'm exactly 5'9".
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I did indeed eat beef muscle/suet mixture last night mixed with some blueberries and a spoonful of honey.
Yesterday at around 6 p.m. I did a kettlebell and bodyweight workout and then bjj class. My joints, particularly in my legs, have been feeling a little sore recently. For example it's uncomfortable to sit on my legs with the tops of my feet under me, probably from footlocks, kicks (missing with the shin and hitting with the foot) and being in the sitting on legs position often during grappling.
Weight = 156.2 lbs
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I tried spleen for the first time today. Only a few ounces; I'm comfortable with liver at this point but spleen seemed a little more mineral rich. I suppose the facts are that liver is more mineral rich, but I'm definitely tasting something different in spleen.
Then I had a beef muscle/suet mixture with some of the raw ketchup I made last night. I'm going to use it to make cocktail sauce once I get some horseradish, and eat it with oysters. It's pretty good, the recipe is found in Juliano's recipe book "Raw."
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I tried spleen for the first time today. Only a few ounces; I'm comfortable with liver at this point but spleen seemed a little more mineral rich. I suppose the facts are that liver is more mineral rich, but I'm definitely tasting something different in spleen.
Then I had a beef muscle/suet mixture with some of the raw ketchup I made last night. I'm going to use it to make cocktail sauce once I get some horseradish, and eat it with oysters. It's pretty good, the recipe is found in Juliano's recipe book "Raw."
Um, is that a good taste in spleen?
Hey, I have Juliano's book. But you know, I was researching, and ketchup (catsup) is really basically a fish sauce traditionally. Sally Fallon has a recipe in her book, and fish sauce is lacto-fermented anchovies basically. That may not be to you taste, but if so, maybe I will post up the recipe sometime.
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The spleen was challenging but so was liver when I first started.
That fish sauce catsup sounds great. I love fish sauce in Thai recipes but am put off by the ingredients in most bottled fish sauces (sugar, msg, commercial salt).
In this catsup are there tomatoes? I could certainly find some dried anchovies or maybe even fresh and ferment them as the base. Ketchup is good because it can be used for other stuff, like the cocktail sauce I want to make. Also isn't Russian dressing a combination of ketchup and mayonnaise? Tons of other stuff I'm sure.
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In this catsup are there tomatoes? I could certainly find some dried anchovies or maybe even fresh and ferment them as the base. Ketchup is good because it can be used for other stuff, like the cocktail sauce I want to make. Also isn't Russian dressing a combination of ketchup and mayonnaise? Tons of other stuff I'm sure.
Yeah yeah, that's why they call it tomato ketchup (or catsup). Catsup sounds like cat-snot or some other feline bodily fluid, but it comes from westerners trying to pronouce oriental words. It comes from ke-tsiap, a Chinese word meaning fish sauce. I have a recipe for oyster catsup in a Monticello cookbook. The possibilities are endless of what you can add to fish sauce.
And yes, many other dressings and such stem from those. I will post up the NT recipe, modified without whey and less sweetener (it uses maple, so honey is an easy switch), so I won't violate the ©.
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I tell ya what, Spleen is something else!
It's supposed to be very rich in enzymes.
I enjoy liver much more
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I'm gonna eat a handful of so of blueberries now, take a shower, and then eat some more spleen and then muscle/suet. I'll try and weigh myself as well because I sweated a lot and haven't drank enough to put it all back I think.
Also I got kneed really well in the left thigh and am having a little trouble walking, but I can't see any bruise which is confusing.
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I weighed 155.6 and then 154.4 after a shower. I ate some spleen and muscle/suet like I planned, and a couple of handfuls of blueberries.
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weight = 154.4 lbs
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weight = 155.6 lbs this morning
Yesterday was hard. I think it's been about a week with no cooked food at all, and I think that had a lot to do with the headache I had last night. I ate my normal food: finished up the spleen (only a few ounces at a time) and I've been kind of measuring the meat which is a little less than 1.5 lbs a day mixed with an amount of suet that seems like a little less than the meat in volume. Also a few handfuls of blueberries and kimchi. My food wasn't very appetizing, I'm probably going to have to get some sashimi or something today to spice things up.
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Yeah the healthier you eat causes the detox to kick in! I think the headache is the toxins going back into the blood stream to be excreted.
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156.6 lbs this morning. Last night was hard, I had a weird day and didn't eat until the sashimi at around 4 p.m. I didn't shun the cooked stuff in there but I think it was just the fake crab. I also had a little bit of the wasabi and a good amount of pickled ginger, which probably had some less than optimal ingredients. Then around 2 a.m. I had about 3/4 lbs of meat with suet. I got into some stuff that day and didn't have time to eat before then and was going crazy. Today I'm going to try to get back into the amount that I was eating before.
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Today was hard as well. I had oysters and tried my new raw cocktail sauce but oysters seem to leave me with a funny feeling after eating them. I feel strangely thirsty, and I feel like I've eaten something but my stomach is not satisfied at all. I felt much better about an hour or two after. As for my cocktail sauce, I put in too much horseradish and it was all that good, but it did give me faith that a decent sauce could be made raw paleo style.
That's all I ate, 3 dozen oysters. I was supposed to eat muscle/suet but I procrastinated because tomorrow is my first day at a new job and I didn't want to be home alone so I went to copy some stuff at my uncle's house and hung out there until late. I'll just consider it some intermittent fasting and get back on the high calorie horse tomorrow.
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Today was hard as well. I had oysters and tried my new raw cocktail sauce but oysters seem to leave me with a funny feeling after eating them. I feel strangely thirsty, and I feel like I've eaten something but my stomach is not satisfied at all. I felt much better about an hour or two after. As for my cocktail sauce, I put in too much horseradish and it was all that good, but it did give me faith that a decent sauce could be made raw paleo style.
That's all I ate, 3 dozen oysters. I was supposed to eat muscle/suet but I procrastinated because tomorrow is my first day at a new job and I didn't want to be home alone so I went to copy some stuff at my uncle's house and hung out there until late. I'll just consider it some intermittent fasting and get back on the high calorie horse tomorrow.
Good for you! Turning what most would see as a negative into a positive! I've noticed oysters to be salty and either they don't have much fat to fill you up or they contain a lot of water.
Good luck with the new job!
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Things have been crazy with the new job but I only went off my diet once to have a Japanese dinner with my girlfriend the night before she went off to school. Things are going pretty well.
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Kyle,
It's okay. You're still doing well but doesn't Japanese food lend itself to being one of the easiest of cuisines to offer raw paleo foods? Sashimi? Seaweed? What did you end up having? I'm not being critical, just curious.
Craig
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I had spicy seafood soup and spicy seafood salad, which is all cooked I think. Then I had soft shell crab and then sushi. One of the sushi rolls I had did not have rice; it was called a Naruto roll (which I believe is after a Japanese cartoon) and was wrapped in thinly sliced cucumber.
I used to just get sashimi but it was so terribly unsatisfying while watching others get whatever they wanted, and also it doesn't fill me up. I've noticed raw fish for me is more of a snack thing, if I try to eat enough to get full I don't feel that well. Same thing I found out with the oysters I had this week. It's great as an appetizer or snack but trying to eat a full 1000+ calorie meal out of raw fish does not sit well with me at this time.
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I had a bit of Mr. Bungles this weekend but I'm back on track for the week and I came up with the idea of blending about a pound of beef muscle with suet and also some kind of fruit as my staple. At first I was just using blueberries sometimes but now I'm trying different stuff, today I tried a pear. I have some peaches and strawberries as well. So I'm looking forward to how this works out.
In other news I'm currently house shopping and really excited about the prospect. Ever since I was a young adult I've wanted my own place to do with what I wish and now it's a real possibility.
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and a buyers market from what I hear! It's cool to have your own place thats yours with no rent inspections and you can paint it, renovate it until your hearts content!
I bought mine when I was close to your age now 22? which is fairly young, I was at Uni with a decent deposit, but little income, and it was the best thing I ever did. I bought one of the crappiest places (but closest) to the beach I could. It's turned out to be a great investment also, the land is being redeveloped to high rise.
I was poor for years but that didn't matter I liked where i lived.
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Been doing good but I'm having a little trouble including too much carbs with my meat mix. The blending fruit in thing is turning into a problem it seems. Without it though the meat mix tastes very boring and is not appealing.
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Been doing good but I'm having a little trouble including too much carbs with my meat mix. The blending fruit in thing is turning into a problem it seems. Without it though the meat mix tastes very boring and is not appealing.
Speaking as the voice of zero experience... ;D
Rather than mix your fruit in, which does sound problematic, why not try making your meat mix a "spread" that you put onto fruit "crackers". I would think that crisp pears or apples cut into planks would hold quite a bit of meat. Raw Paleo canapes! Throw a party! Invite the neighbors!
-E
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Interesting idea.
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I suffered a little setback this weekend. When I hang out with my girlfriend my diet tends to suffer, and this particular weekend had special circumstances. I'm not sure if they're broken or what but one of my ribs suffered an injury at a grappling tournament Saturday morning and I haven't wanted to do much since then. I'm still going to work but my training is suspended and I just hung out and ate Japanese food all weekend. At least now I'm chowing down on my normal meat mix. I'm thinking of trying bone marrow instead of suet for a while to see if that will help my ribs repair faster.
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Hi Kyle,
How are your ribs? Healing, I hope.
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Well I can't say for sure but it hurts when I move "wrong" which includes sitting up and probably bending. I haven't been working out at all and don't plan on it for a couple of more weeks. It hurts less than before but that might be because I've learned how to move in a way that involves the rib less.
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Alright time for an overhaul. The rib injury and piss poor performance at my grappling tournament have taught me one of those lessons you hear athletes talking about sometimes when they realize they have to take their training seriously. If I had trained just a little bit more, warmed up well before the match and had my head in it I truly believe I could have beaten that guy but instead I got injured and submitted.
I just received a very large Slanker's order and I'm going to start on a Lex-esque regiment with the dog and cat mix with suet and beef cubes. I'm planning on mixing one of the d&c packages with perhaps an eyeballed half volume of suet in comparison to the d&c mix and then a similar amount of beef cubes cut into small pieces. To acclimate myself to the taste I'm going to put a certain amount of honey in it, not sure how much right now maybe a TBSP or two, and then slowly cut back over time on it. The goal would be to not have any honey in there at all and only use honey for special occasions. I might also put something else in it, this week I had a jar of tahini from the weekend and was mixing it with my meat mix and it was pretty good, so I might use a kind of nut/seed butter like the honey and slowly cut back on that as well. I will eat at least one serving of this mix a day and up to two, the packages look to be 1.5 pounds and I would probably be adding another .5 lbs of suet and muscle to the mix and 2 lbs sounds like a good base amount of food for a normal easy day and if I work out extra hard I can eat a portion of another mix.
As for exercise I have done none since my injury and am planning on trying some easy jogs this weekend and into next week to start building back up. Also in a week or two I will make an appointment to get some x-rays and see what really happened and what the condition is with my rib because it is not getting better. It still hurts and looks/feels wrong.
Wish me luck!
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Cool! I wish you the best!
Oh, and I haven't gotten the book yet... whoops!
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Let me know when you start reading the book!
Ok so yesterday I had some salmon for lunch, a few meat sticks from U.S. Wellness Meats for a snack and then my new mix for dinner. I put quite a bit of honey in it but the consistency of the food was a little weird. The suet I cut up seems very different than what I've had before, it felt more like organ meat than fat. Also the dog and cat food mix was very soft after I thawed it out and tasted rather strong of liver. It's going to take a while to start enjoying this mix I think but I feel up to the challenge. I have another serving of the mix for my lunch today and will have more for dinner.
I'm still not exercising as my rib seems like it would keep me from much movement with pain. I'm also not sure of the damage yet and am planning on trying to get x-rays either next week or the week after. The pain doesn't bother me as much as the idea that if I move the wrong way I'll redamage it or something worse, like pierce my lung with it. Stuff like that gives me the heebie jeebies. It hurts most to sit up from a laying position, and I can't imagine the pain grappling would cause or taking a kick/punch/knee to the side, so it's probably better I stay out of the gym until I'm sure it's ok. It's very frustrating though as I feel every day I'm not working out I'm losing everything I gained before. I can only imagine how it must feel to be an active person and then suffer a debilitating accident like losing your legs or something and have to sit on the sidelines for the rest of your life. This forced laziness is imbuing me with a new appreciation for when my body is working correctly so at least that's good. Now that so much movement hurts it amazes me what I was able to do before without any pain at all.
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will do... it should be here any day now, It's been in shipment for a while.
And good luck getting used to your new mix! I'm sure it won't take too long
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I got down almost all of my lunch even though it was not appetizing at all. What happened was I put a bunch of the mix into a glass container like usual and left it in a cooler type lunch box and as it sat there juices separated so the bottom was liquid. Usually I don't mind this at all as the liquid is coming off of muscle but now with the mix it's also organs which have a much stronger and (socially created) bad flavor/smell.
So now I'm going to add more muscle to the mix I have and when I finish it (hopefully tomorrow for lunch) I'm going to modify the ratios. I'm going to cut up two 1lb packages of beef cubes with a slightly smaller volume of suet and then mix that with one 1.5lb package of dog and cat mix.
The other thing, which I already mentioned, is the suet is weird this time. The package I'm taking from seems to be half some kind of tissue that is not fat and half fat. It's squishy like organ but light in color. It's probably just a different type of fat than I was getting with the other packages I ordered, but it sucks all of this change is coming at once because my food is a challenge now.
Interestingly it doesn't "gross me out" to eat it (and I think it might make a quesy person vomit just looking at it or smelling it) but it's just not appealing. I'm going to give it my best to try and stick to it and see if I can accustom myself to eating it and reap some health benefits of consistency. Consistency is definitely my biggest challenge with this.
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I find it hard to believe I'm still on my regimen after the weekend as every weekend in the past couple of months I've ever drank alcohol, eaten unhealthy cooked food, or both. I had plenty of opportunities but somehow stuck it out. Yesterday night I started with a mild headache that has continued but subsided slightly into this morning. I think it was because all I ate yesterday was one US Wellness Meats stick of pemmican at around 3 p.m. and then nothing until a meat mix serving around 10 p.m. Sometimes when I go this long without eating I will get a headache, but it could very well have been because I haven't had any unhealthy cooked food with preservatives etc. for a while.
My rib is still messed up and I'm thinking it's never going to go back to it's normal shape but that hopefully the pain goes away and it doesn't present a weakness in me for the rest of my life. As of yet it still is keeping me from any type of exercise and that is becoming very frustrating.
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I find it hard to believe I'm still on my regimen after the weekend as every weekend in the past couple of months I've ever drank alcohol, eaten unhealthy cooked food, or both. I had plenty of opportunities but somehow stuck it out. Yesterday night I started with a mild headache that has continued but subsided slightly into this morning. I think it was because all I ate yesterday was one US Wellness Meats stick of pemmican at around 3 p.m. and then nothing until a meat mix serving around 10 p.m. Sometimes when I go this long without eating I will get a headache, but it could very well have been because I haven't had any unhealthy cooked food with preservatives etc. for a while.
You've got to live, so drinking and stuff is cool as long as you jump back into good food, especially since your fairly healthy.. Just get back into the raw meats/fats when you can, you will always come back to it.
I totally agree with your reason for the junk food headache.
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I'll probably be drinking next month too, it will destroy the whole Zero carb deal but it's easier to say yes, than be unsociable.
The reason why is because I'll be working away on a job for about a month with all my bosses etc and drinking together is part of the job. Most of them will be into other stuff as well.
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Hang in there, Kyle. Can you use machines? I am cringing at the thought of your response, but can you do any kind of workout at all? Have you seen a doctor yet?
BTW, I drink red wine with dinner a few times a week. It may not be paleo, but it goes well with carpaccio and salad. To each, his own. Enjoy life to the fullest.
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BTW, I drink red wine with dinner a few times a week. It may not be paleo, but it goes well with carpaccio and salad. To each, his own. Enjoy life to the fullest.
Me too, but, attention: alcohol has its own metabolic path, that is different from ather carbos.
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Me too, but, attention: alcohol has its own metabolic path, that is different from ather carbos.
Luigi, this is true. You seem to know a lot about metabolism. When you visit the US, we will have to sit down over some good raw food and wine. ;)
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Hang in there, Kyle. Can you use machines? I am cringing at the thought of your response, but can you do any kind of workout at all? Have you seen a doctor yet?
BTW, I drink red wine with dinner a few times a week. It may not be paleo, but it goes well with carpaccio and salad. To each, his own. Enjoy life to the fullest.
I don't have access to any machines to workout with and honestly have given them up in the theory of full body realistic functional strength training. I think I can jog and barring anything terrible happening tomorrow I might just try it. I just remembered that exercise (any kind) helps me to get down food that I'm not particularly into (like what I'm eating now) more easily.
I will have health insurance in about a week or two, I have to actually count the calendar days until I have worked 30 consecutive days, but right after that I'm going to a doctor to get a prescription for x-rays. If they tell me it's just going to be sore and look a little different and there's no danger of messing myself up I'll be back into the gym that day because honestly the pain is not as strong anymore as the depression and frustration that this forced inaction is causing.
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You've got to live, so drinking and stuff is cool as long as you jump back into good food, especially since your fairly healthy.. Just get back into the raw meats/fats when you can, you will always come back to it.
I totally agree with your reason for the junk food headache.
I am always looking for a balance point. I was thinking recently of coming up with a type of "schedule" or "allowance" for myself of something cooked but paleo once in a while, and also either the clear type of liquor mixed with juice (nothing processed to mix with or preserved) or real ale/cider/wine for social occasions. If I go for a long time eating only my raw paleo digs I really start to not enjoy the eating aspect of life and get pretty down about it. Then I'll go and eat something bad and feel really bad about that, so it's like I pick what I feel bad about. So if I could just find a balance where I can eat something off of my diet to allow me to enjoy food once in a while but at the same time not something that will make me feel sick after wards or interfere with my digestive system, then I'd be very happy with that discovery.
It's like in some ways I feel weaker on healthier diets because my body tolerates unhealthy input less well. Wouldn't it be nice if eating raw paleo all the time gave you the ability to digest crappy food and deal with artificial chemicals better?
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Luigi, this is true. You seem to know a lot about metabolism. When you visit the US, we will have to sit down over some good raw food and wine. ;)
Of course, I'd love to :) :) :)
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I am always looking for a balance point. I was thinking recently of coming up with a type of "schedule" or "allowance" for myself of something cooked but paleo once in a while, and also either the clear type of liquor mixed with juice (nothing processed to mix with or preserved) or real ale/cider/wine for social occasions. If I go for a long time eating only my raw paleo digs I really start to not enjoy the eating aspect of life and get pretty down about it. Then I'll go and eat something bad and feel really bad about that, so it's like I pick what I feel bad about. So if I could just find a balance where I can eat something off of my diet to allow me to enjoy food once in a while but at the same time not something that will make me feel sick after wards or interfere with my digestive system, then I'd be very happy with that discovery.
It's like in some ways I feel weaker on healthier diets because my body tolerates unhealthy input less well. Wouldn't it be nice if eating raw paleo all the time gave you the ability to digest crappy food and deal with artificial chemicals better?
Hey Kyle, it seems to me that you are taking it too emotionally.
I found a good balance that allows me go off my diet sometimes without feeling that bad or discomfort.
My approach is: it's not what you eat rarely that matters, but what you eat/do everyday.
Social occasions happen and are an important part of life (up to me), just take and enjoy them.
Of course thigs are done with moderation.
What I do on socials (and so far it was always possible) is: eat paleo cooked and drink with moderation (I only drink wine or beer 'cause I can't stand superalcoholic drinks). Never mix different alcoholic drinks (someone believes it's not good to mix different types of wine as well, I noticed that if the alcoholic grade is similar It's affordable to drink some red wine, and than some white SEPARATELY).
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What I do on socials (and so far it was always possible) is: eat paleo cooked and drink with moderation (I only drink wine or beer 'cause I can't stand superalcoholic drinks). Never mix different alcoholic drinks (someone believes it's not good to mix different types of wine as well, I noticed that if the alcoholic grade is similar It's affordable to drink some red wine, and than some white SEPARATELY).
I ought to mention that the types of alcohol which cause the most hangovers are the coloured ones as they contain more congeners and other preservatives. So that means that red wine, whisky and lager-beer are to be avoided, IMO. For alcohol, I generally choose things like vodka, therefore, or, more commonly, Real Ale which is unpasteurised and full of bacteria, without any preservatives at all. The only exception is Limoncello, IF I know that it's one of the varieties which doesn't have any preservatives, colouring agents in it. I rarely drink such alcohol but I I drink it more often than I eat cooked-food as I find it seems to have less of an effect on me, long-term(ie no constipation, no hangover-effect the next morning , as I only drink moderately etc.)
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Re red wine, I have to tell you that white wine may be altered as well as red wine.
Fortunately I buy wine from a friend that produces it from the grapes he cultivates.
Wine contains polyphenols that are said to be anti-radicals.
Re beer, i prefer unpasteurized one (if I can find it), otherwise weiss or stout.
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Re red wine, I have to tell you that white wine may be altered as well as red wine.
Fortunately I buy wine from a friend that produces it from the grapes he cultivates.
Yes, I know, I've been trying to find any wine at all which doesn't have sulphites in it as a preservative, and there are very, very few available, and only on specific websites. For some reason, it's the sulphites in wine that give me the worst side-effects, so I stick to real ale, limoncello/grappa or vodka, if at all.
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Yes, I know, I've been trying to find any wine at all which doesn't have sulphites in it as a preservative, and there are very, very few available, and only on specific websites. For some reason, it's the sulphites in wine that give me the worst side-effects, so I stick to real ale, limoncello/grappa or vodka, if at all.
You might want to try my friends at OWC. Very nice people. They only have 2 wines with no added sulfites, but both are good. The Cartagene is a sweet wine.
http://www.theorganicwinecompany.com/
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Hey Kyle, it seems to me that you are taking it too emotionally.
I found a good balance that allows me go off my diet sometimes without feeling that bad or discomfort.
My approach is: it's not what you eat rarely that matters, but what you eat/do everyday.
Social occasions happen and are an important part of life (up to me), just take and enjoy them.
Of course thigs are done with moderation.
What I do on socials (and so far it was always possible) is: eat paleo cooked and drink with moderation (I only drink wine or beer 'cause I can't stand superalcoholic drinks). Never mix different alcoholic drinks (someone believes it's not good to mix different types of wine as well, I noticed that if the alcoholic grade is similar It's affordable to drink some red wine, and than some white SEPARATELY).
I might be emotional about it but the negative effects of going off of my diet are physical, I'm not imagining them. When I say I "feel bad" about going off of my diet, I don't mean just guilty, I mean physically sick or at least less than optimal. Sometimes after eating unhealthy food I'll get a headache (maybe detoxing preservatives or salts or caffeine) and a lot of times it messes with my digestive system and bowel movements. Most of the negative effects come from eating a lot of it, but it's one of those things where if I just eat a little bit I'm not satisfied anyway.
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I went off my diet tonight for a family social occasion but I feel ok with it. On the brighter side my doctor cousin in law gave me some advice about my rib and I might be able to get it fixed. According to him one of them is out of it's cartilage joint and could be pushed back in by an osteopathic manipulative doctor. Very hopeful for this as my rib injury has kept me from working out for about a month now and doesn't seem to be getting better quickly on it's own.
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That's great news on both counts.
Perhaps you found a happy medium with your ability to go off your diet. And I really hope you're able to recover very shortly as well.
The book still hasn't arrived. I don't know what could possibly be taking so long. :(
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Hi kyle,
how are you today after going off ?
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I feel ok today except that my digestive tract is a little off. I felt like I had to poop and the first time I went very little came out and then shortly after I had to go again and felt like the rest came out then. That is something that only happens when I eat cooked food, probably the bread from the chicken pot pie and the creamy sauce in there stopped things up a little. Also I was a little more thirsty and dry mouthed from the salt.
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It's normal, I believe, to feel more thirst when you eat cooked and/or non paleo food.
It also happens to me and other people in Italy following a raw (or almost raw) style.
Cooking take some water out of food, so more friction arises while it passes throug the digestive tract.
This may explain what happened to you.
What we do in cases like this it to follow our thirst, so we drink a lot.
So it seems you absorbed the lunch off quite well...
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One other thing I've noticed re being on a raw palaeo diet (http://www.rawpaleodiet.com/) is that on the very rare occasions I eat (unadulterated) bread or similar pastry, that I have to gulp large amounts of water to force it down. Pre-rawpalaeo diet, I had no such problems with highly-dried cooked food.
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Hey Kyle, my Relearning to See book arrived today.
Do you think it's important to read every single word of it? A lot of it seems very text-book like. If possible I'd rather just read the most important parts, but I will read all of it if it is important to.
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It doesn't seem like the beginning was important to read except to convince you that the method and research is correct and that the modern optometry practice is wrong about lenses being the only part of your eye responsible for focus.
I only got to the part with the first few "exercises" and then kind of lost interest. You're right about the text-bookyness of it, and it's a dry one at that. I consider myself a good reader but sometimes I can't keep up with something if it strikes me a certain boring way, and then with exercises I have trouble with consistency.
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Long time no post. I'm back in the gym and my rib seems fine. It's probably always going to have a bumb there, a permanent reminder of the loss at the tournament. Right now I'm eating a muscle/suet combo with some honey, about 1.5 tablespoons.
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That's good you're back in the gym.
I myself have kind of been a bum and haven't gone in a good while.
I started reading the Relearning to See book over thanksgiving break, but haven't picked it up in a few days. I can tell consistency will be a problem with me as well. It seems like it could work though, given enough effort.
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Not being able to go to the gym is no excuse. Just get hold of a bodyweight training manual and do those excercises every day - all you need is a little space to do all the pressups etc. It works better than the gym in many ways. I have a manual by a Ross Enamait which is very useful(except for the bit about nutrition).
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Response to Lex's post in "Slanker's Order" thread:
Thanks for the thoughtful response Lex, similar thoughts have crossed my mind. One issue I have is that since I lack much desire towards my raw muscle/suet mix or organs it's hard for me to eat it at work. The best time for me to eat my raw food is at night, which is the opposite of the "eat your healthy food first then eat something else at night" principle.
Today, for example, I didn't eat lunch at all, nor breakfast. I almost never have breakfast, but usually I bring about 1lb muscle with an eyeballed addition of suet to work and put as much as a tablespoon of honey into it to make it more palatable. Sometimes I eat as much as I can without the honey, sometimes I finish it all before the honey, usually not.
So today I left my lunch at the plant and was out doing my sample collections (I collect samples of drinking water for the water company and then test them back at the plant for bacteria) and ended up being out way past lunch time because of uncontrollable circumstances. What happened was I needed to open a lock to get at a well and my key didn't work in the lock so I had to wait for someone, which happened on top of an already busy day. In fact most of the time I don't get to lunch until 1:00 pm, very often later. So on this day I didn't have any time at all to eat my lunch and am just now eating it at 11:00 pm. I almost went the whole day without eating, when I got home from work I took a nap and before hand had about a handful of raw macadamia nuts and dates. I very rarely eat raw vegan foods like this but just had no desire to eat meat and wanted to eat just something before laying down.
So the thing is, if I truly enjoyed the meat mix I eat I would probably bring it along with me to eat in the car in case I got stuck somewhere, or I would somehow find time to eat it. I'm blown away by how easy it is to consume calories in the form of cooked foods like sandwiches or a meat and grain dish like beef and rice with vegetables. You can easily eat the amount of calories my meat mix is, which takes me maybe 1/2 hour or more because it's chewy and I'm not enjoying it very much, in 10 minutes or less. That is to say that if I ate a "normal" diet I would never get caught without anything to eat because I could stop at a convenience store for 2 minutes to grab a sandwich, which I could eat in 5 minutes and even while driving. Sitting down with my glass container of muscle and suet is basically the opposite end of the ease of eating spectrum.
So for that reason it would be easier for me to eat more convenient foods during the day while I'm working and doing chores rather than at night. I imagine making my own sushi and bringing it to work, or a cooked dish like meat and vegetables. One time I made a paleo stew and brought that to work, however I had another hard day and no time for lunch so that ended up being my dinner as well. Again stew is much less convenient (need a bowl and relative concentration to not make a mess as compared to a sandwich or bowl of a dryer dish) than most other cooked foods to eat, hence not having the time to eat it.
This whole thing points to the issue that I seem to be only able to concentrate on one or a couple of difficult things in my life at a time. Like when I was learning guitar, that's all I cared about. I was in high school and did school work, but at that point in school homework and everything is second nature and you either can do it or can't. I spent most of my free time practicing guitar, and I got good fast. Now I'm at a point in my life where I'm trying to do so many things, principle of which is convert myself to this raw paleo diet. I am already mostly raw paleo, but the concentration it takes to stay on the diet I believe is making other things more difficult. I go to the gym less because I just don't feel like it, sometimes because I didn't eat lunch or am generally discouraged.
The whole idea of my current diet was that I could gain muscle eating about 2 lbs muscle mixed with suet (I don't measure the suet but it's maybe 1/3 by volume of the muscle I add) split into 2 meals per day. Other than that I eat occasional raw seafood for extra nutrients I might be missing, and very rarely raw plants like an avocado or some kind of salad. The thing is, I don't know if I can gain weight on this diet because I can't keep consistent on it long enough to tell one way or the other. The combination of the food not being entirely appealing and also being a little more time consuming to eat means that I have yet to be able to keep up the 2 meals every day for more than a week without either missing one or going off my diet due to a craving or inconvenience. So for all intents and purposes I am following in a sense that 80/20 rule, maybe closer to 90/10, but instead of intentionally eating something off my diet every day I stick to it for a few days and then eat <20% of a days food off of my diet. It's not quite a yoyo situation because I don't go off my diet on craziness like cookies and ice cream, but it's enough to keep me from making the gains I want and feeling once in a while the effects of going off the diet in the way I do.
I may indeed start experimenting with different things. It just seems so appealing to imagine that if I stick to it I can one day get the monkey off my back of cooked food, as well as truly enjoy all raw animal foods. I have experienced some very good health results from this diet, in particular basically never getting sick, and I don't want to give that up out of a weakness. Really the thing that has got me down is the weight gaining attempt. I did gain quite a bit of weight from my vegan days, but I'm stuck at about 155 lbs and my preferred weight from before when I was on SAD was around 165 to 170 lbs tops. Not much to gain but I felt very healthy and on my frame I looked athletic and strong at that weight. If all I cared about was maintaining my current weight the diet wouldn't be so hard because I could skip meals if I didn't feel like eating while I try to train my tastes, but I have the idea in my head that I shouldn't be skipping meals because I want to gain weight. I feel almost like I'm at the point where I can either give up on gaining the weight and achieving what I want in the gym and with martial arts training, or I can give up or modify my diet. This is probably a false dichotomy because if I had the ability to make myself eat the food I should probably be able to meet my training goals with it, but I can't convince my body to want to eat something if it doesn't. It's strange when I try to eat the food and it's not gross but rather neutral tasting, and I tend to chew it a lot because my body isn't telling me to swallow and take another bite like it would be if I really liked it, you know? So it takes so much longer than it has to in order to eat it.
Either way I should sit back and thank my blessings for at least doing what I'm doing, it can be stressful and difficult but I don't have the fear of these health problems I see so many having. My girlfriends roommate had skin cancer at like age 18!
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Ah, the problems of youth! ;) We are never happy with who we are or what we have. "Life would be so much better if I just gained (or lost) x-pounds." "My life would be complete if I just had a different job, or more money, or free time, or..... etc. etc. etc....."
What most of us gain with age is patience and acceptance, and once that happens we can focus on what's important and realize that gaining what is truly worthwile often takes a lifetime. I assure you that I was no different. It took me 40 years to "get it". Now the best I can do is try to pass what I've learned along in hopes that others will be able to recognize that they already have the brass ring much earlier in their life than I did.
Might I suggest that you take some time to think through and prioritize what is truly important in your life - in other words, your core values. These are things like Religion, Country, Wealth, Social Status, Health, Family, Personal Appearance, Career, Charity, Honesty, Personal Integrity etc. Add others to the list that you think are important, then place them in order of importance and write a sentence or two for each clarifying exactly what it means to you and why you placed it in it's order of importance.
Example, a religious person might put God 1st as God is the creator of all things and without God nothing would exist.
Second might be Health as without good health little else matters so after paying homage to God I must do everything in my power to protect my health.
Third might be Family as it is through family and children that my legacy continues into the future.
Be very honest with yourself in this process. Once you have your list, monitor closely to see if you are LIVING your values in the priority as you've defined them, or if your list and its priorities are there to sound good and impress people but not truly guide your actions and decisions. I did this many years ago and I assure you it took a lot of soul searching and introspection to honestly determine what would be the guiding principles in my life. Once this was done, however, most life and career choices became much easier.
One time two different positions became available at work and I applied for both (either was a significant promotion). One was in Engineering and the other was a Management position. Before the interviews were held, I was called into the office of the hiring manager. He and I were very good friends and he asked me which position I wanted. I told him that I would be happy with either one, but since I barely met the qualifications and the competition was considerable, I wasn't convinced that I would be successful at all. The manager assured me that he had already made his decision as too which two candidates would be selected (remember this is before the interviews were held), and he was offering me first pick of the positions. WOW, what an ego booster. Not only was I going to be selected for one of the positions, I would get pick of the litter.
Then I reviewed my list of core values and found that Personal Integrity was ahead of Money, Career, and Social Status, (all of which would have been given a considerable boost if I accepted one of the positions). I talked it over with my wife and the next day I went back to the manager and withdrew my name from consideration for both positions. You see, I wanted to earn the promotion, not have it handed to me because of a personal friendship. I did not feel that accepting one of the positions under the conditions offered was right for me, the company, or the other applicants that were more qualified, and it certainly didn't meet my definition of Personal Integrity.
Now I want you to understand that I know that things like this happen everyday and I really have nothing against them - it's part of the reality of daily living. Also, had I placed Money, Career, or Social Status above Personal Integrity I would have accepted one of the positions. It was not a case of RIGHT and WRONG or black and white. It was a case of having thought through my core values and then remaining true to them. The other person who was singled, out did accept one of the positions and I had no problem with that. It's all about what is important to each person.
So, make a list of your core values. Think it through very carefully as the order of importance you give each value is critical. Then use the list to help you make decisions and resolve the personal conflicts we all face. You may be surprised where the values related to your current dietary conflicts fall on the list and your reasoning behind where you set your priorities. Remember, there is no right or wrong. If you choose to put Money above Health, that is a valid choice, as is leaving God/Religion off the list entirely if you are of a secular bent. It's all about truly understanding yourself and what drives you.
Most people never do this as they think they understand their priorities already. But I think you'll find that if you do this exercise it will be one of the hardest things you've ever attempted and will take far longer than you ever imagined. However, if you make the effort and get it right, you'll find it easy to resolve conflicts and evaluate opportunities and seldom, if ever, make a decision that is not in line with what you hold most dear.
Hope this helps,
Lex
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Thanks again for the thoughtful reply. I have some questions about this list, firstly which things can constitute a priority? Or even the meaning of certain priorities, like health. For many health may mean not having a diagnosible disease, but for some it means in addition to that feeling good, having high levels of energy, sleeping well, feeling strong and having a good working memory and other mental functions.
An example would be that if we're talking about having a terrible disease like cancer I would put health right on the top of my list because I'd rather sacrifice eating foods I like and doing activities I like to ward off something like that. In that sense health is necessary to enjoy anything else, if you're dying in a hospital bed not even McDonald's and cheesecake is going to do anything for you.
But if I put health over everything else because of that logical reason, do I have to choose the healthiest option every time I have a choice to make? If not, what is the function of the list? And then there's the pesky problems of health ambiguity, you don't know for sure if a certain unhealthy choice will cause a problem for you, just like many smokers will never get lung cancer or even notice shortness of breath.
I don't want to read to nit picky but I do want to point out that the job issue you had is much more cut and dry a decision than health ones, since there is no denying that your income would have increased at the cost of your sense of morality and fairness.
Also money is a funny one for the list. At my current income level money isn't very important, I have enough for what I need and wouldn't want to work more and do a less enjoyable job for a little more, but for a whole lot more I might. So it's a scaler thing, just like health seems.
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So many good points made here in this latest discussion.
I've made myself sick in pursuit of health on and off for the past 5 years. The last time was only last week.
One thing I like about this group of people is that we are really sincere. We want to get down to the truth and we aren't afraid to eat raw kidneys to get there.
However, we are all so un-paleo, despite our intentions - sitting at our computers thinking about chemicals. Modern man is in love with thinking.
This last bout of thought-imposed illness is my last. It's time for a new paradigm. I've been able to do this in other areas, but still had "food issues." Time for more instinct, more intuition, less thinking.
All spiritual practices, even those that use thinking as a tool, such as zen and raja yoga, aim for integration of all faculties. Wholeness. When I used to *think* of health as what condition my body was in, I *thought* I could *think it out* and *decide* what to eat, or what else to do with my body. Imagine if people tried having sex that way. The human race would die out!
I've experienced health, and it's far more than an idea, and much much more complex than body chemistry.
It seems that Lex is suggesting something more than a list of "rules to live by," which is why he noted that it would be much more of a challenge than one might expect. It seems that he suggests a deep contemplation of and meditation upon your interior world that will yield a self-knowledge that will guide you in every way, not just diet.
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I agree livingthelife, I've been thinking way more than doing for the last few years of my life. I acknowledge I'm a thinker at heart, but I don't want to spend my whole life thinking about better things I could be doing. I haven't yet made my list but the thought of it has provoked many ideas, one of which is to stop the obsession with 100% raw paleo diet, which took a huge weight off of my back.
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Hey Kyle, how are your ribs doing? You cracked them some time ago. Have they healed? Are your working out?
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They're "healed" but will probably stick out wrong forever. The one rib the doctor said might have been broken. It sticks out a little and feels uncomfortable when I lay belly down but it doesn't so much hurt anymore. And I am working out again, it doesn't affect me so far.
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Well I gave some AV style milkshakes without the milk, just cream, a try and they did not agree with me. I had a few small ones, and although they taste very good, it doesn't sit well in my stomach, especially after having eaten anything else (meat and fat in this case). Then I had a rather large one on an empty stomach, and felt very unwell after. I even felt like I was going to throw up. So now I'm trying the butter lubrication drinks, and last night I felt not so bad after one but still it seemed to not digest as perfectly as flesh.
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Lubrication formulas just don't digest as well as flesh. Nothing really does. Getting pretty bored with what I'm eating and being tempted by other stuff, but as for now I'm sticking to my guns. Looking forward to trying some of Lex's pemmican! Also I'm going to try and stock up on some seafood and get more diverse RAF's around so that I have less chance of getting tired of what I'm eating, which for now is just suet and beef cubes.
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So, what are these 'temptations' you are talking about? Is it carb-laden junk food? Have you tried to cut carbs and see how boring food is then? I ask because many zero carb types are totally set free from wondering, "What will I eat?" That said, I too enjoy variety, yet I am learning to eat within a local, seasonal paradigm. Not there, mind you, but the journey is half the fun.
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For me temptations are usually in the form of driving around (which I do a good deal of at work) and seeing lots of Asian restaurants. That's my favorite food, both because it's very tasty and is considered healthier than cheese steaks and the like. I go nuts for Thai, Japanese (especially sushi and anything with Sriracha hot sauce and Kewpie mayo) and I enjoy Indian a good deal. Today I went past an Afghani place and looked at their menu, it seemed pretty much like Indian. And the fact that Japanese food, like sushi, tends to have some RAF in it makes it even more tempting, because it's like barely cheating. But when you consider than rice is both cooked AND neolithic, and most of sushi is rice, you realize it's not really very RAF or raw paleo friendly after all. Sashimi is nice but not satisfying for me, once I get to the place I just want the real deal sushi, and some miso soup, and a kani salad, or something else tasty.
I'm not sure if it's the carbs I'm looking for or what. I used to think it was the additives in junk food that my body had trouble breaking an addiction from. Stuff that would be in processed condiments that I would end up taking in at restaurants.
Still though, the feeling of cheating on junk food is worse than the feeling of not having it.
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Me too, I love Asian food. Maybe it's the MSG at the restaurants, lol. I do think, in terms of cooked cheats, that home made bone stock soups are the most benign choice. Just prepare food at home, and stop driving around! ;D
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I have to drive around for work. You know, I don't much like making food at home anymore either. I have other things I want to spend my time on at home now and like I've said before, I get this idea into my head like "if I could just make this bone soup" or whatever it is, "then I won't have cravings for junk" or something like that. And then it just ends up taking up a lot of time, some money (always more than my usual simple diet) and in the end rarely if ever satisfies me and makes me feel good afterwards. It's almost easier and better to just save the time, go out and get sushi, feel a little worse afterwards from the carbs and preservatives and stuff, and be done with it.
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Yes yes, you are only feeding you, no? Then do your sushi cheats. Hell, you could do much worse for yourself. I only eat sashimi out, cuz it's so pricey, I want only fish; no filler.
And the martial arts training, how goes it? Do press on as you can. Never quit!
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Hey Kyle, u said your diet suffers when you spend time with your girlfriend. Is that because you haven't told her you are on a diet, you are tempted by the food she wants to eat, or she is opposed to the diet?
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Hey Kyle, u said your diet suffers when you spend time with your girlfriend. Is that because you haven't told her you are on a diet, you are tempted by the food she wants to eat, or she is opposed to the diet?
Well unfortunately I don't have that problem anymore, but when I did have a girlfriend the problems would arise because it's a very normal thing to go out to eat. She actually tried a paleo diet for a while but gave it up when she went to college because she doesn't have control over her food for now. We both like the same kind of restaurants too so that made it easy to go out and eat. And once you get in the habit of doing it, it's hard to break that.
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Yes yes, you are only feeding you, no? Then do your sushi cheats. Hell, you could do much worse for yourself. I only eat sashimi out, cuz it's so pricey, I want only fish; no filler.
And the martial arts training, how goes it? Do press on as you can. Never quit!
Sushi really messes me up. I think it's the carbs, or maybe the grain carbs. I just can't do it anymore, when I eat any sizable amount of grains I feel bloated for a while. It's a shame but I think it's time to learn the lesson that my bloated tummy has taught me dozens of times.
My martial arts training is going ok. I skipped a couple of days but I've been pretty consistent for a while now. I've given up my grand dreams of being a great martial artist and just do it for fun and to keep my body is good condition now.
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I haven't done my little cheats on the diet for almost two weeks now and am feeling very strange. I used to go and eat something non-paleo once or twice a week and would feel kind of crappy about it then do it again next time. I just haven't done it recently, no plan or anything, and I feel not so good now. I've been eating mostly raw muscle and suet with some fruit and today I had some soup made of bone broth with some mushrooms, onions and asparagus cooked in there along with some pork meat my mom had cooked last night. I started feeling weird late last week, felt sore in muscles that I didn't think I worked hard enough to feel as sore as they did, and just last night towards the end of a bjj class I started feeling light headed and slightly nauseous and had to leave early. Then I have this terrible pain in my right neck/back/shoulder area and almost kept me up last night. Also I've been sneezing a few times a day, which I usually don't do.
What gives? Do I have a cold? The flu? I haven't gotten "sick" since started raw vegan 4 or 5 years ago, I figured all those little sicknesses were really just from cooked food, mostly from cooked gluten and dairy. Is my body going through a change after not cheating on the diet for a while? I don't feel dizzy or anything like last night anymore, but I still have this pain in my neck and I would say my energy feels a little off, not totally gone but not what it should be.
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Kyle,
If you read my journal you'll find that I've gone through periods of feeling really crappy each time I make a significant change to my lifestyle. It happened when I changed the fat/protein ratio, it happened when I increased my activity level, each change has caused my body to have to adjust and for a few days I just don't feel my best.
Personally, I think dietary detox is total nonsense. No one can define it, or even measure any toxins of any kind in the blood, urine or any other body fluid. They can't even tell you what causes it.... well that's not an entirely accurate statement. What is said to cause detox is anything that the guru can't explain. You feel crappy? No identifiable cause.... No problem, it's Dietary DETOX! (and you can't prove me wrong because medically there's no such thing! I can't loose).
Lex
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So you would call it an adjustment?
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So you would call it an adjustment?
Why do we have a need to give it some pseudo scientific label? We have no idea what our bodies are actually doing to cause our temporary low feeling and for each and every time it happens it's likely to be a completely different cause anyway.
In my journal I recount my experience with adding a very small increase in exercise to my high fat diet and feeling lousy for a week or so. I was eating very high fat and making demands on my body that it wasn't prepared for or able to easily accommodate. BG fluctuated all over the place, ketones went through the roof, and energy levels were eratic as my body did what was necessary to accommodate the changes.
In New Age Naturopathic speak I was experiencing serious symptoms of dietary detox. Of course there were no toxins that anyone could identify, but why let that stop you from labeling it so. I felt crappy after making a significant change to my diet and a minor change in activity level so it had to be detox. Total nonsense. People who don't change there diet but have the same reaction when they raise their activity level are called "out of shape".
What did I call it? My body adapting to the recent dietary and exercise changes I made. Not sure why it would need another name - especially one that can't be shown to even exist except in the made-up world of New Age Naturopathic Healing.
Dietary Detox is perfect for new age medicine because it doesn't really exist and when the patient inevitably starts to feel better the Healing Art Practitioner can claim credit. If the patient doesn't improve, the practitioner can warn that the level of toxicity is extremely high and buried deep within the tissues and will require heroic measures (read expensive herbal remedies, tissue manipulations (massage), colored light, aroma, and reflexology therapies) and many months or years to become completely toxin free. Believe me, I've been on the receiving end of this one more than once so I'm very familiar with it.
If you still think it might be dietary detox let me know and I'll send you some of my world famous Lex's Detox Diet Aid. It's a proprietary "all natural" blend of the worst tasting things I can find made into an alcohol infusion. It's just $250 USD per oz. but you need to act quickly as supplys are limited. You put one drop under your tongue 1/2 hour before each meal and again at bed time. (There's a 50% discount if you sign up for my monthly automatic reorder plan.) I guarantee you'll be feeling better in no time. Of course, on the off chance the problem is greater than expected, you may wish to order my all natural Super Herbal Nutritional Supplement made from 120 exotic healing herb and fruit extracts plus Colonol Sander's 11 Secret Herbs and Spices, Aroma Therapy Candles (contains real camel dung from the Sahara Desert), Tantric Reflexology Chart, and Super Pyramid Color Light Spectrum Filter (cheap iridescent prismatic Mylar sheet mounted in a pyramid shaped cardboard frame) for your reading lamp. Contact me directly for a package deal.
The sad thing is I actually fell for this nonsense myself.......more than once I might add -[,
Lex
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Haha. I've done an herbal cleanse before, and a colonic. Can't say I noticed much of a difference, but then again I could have had "deep toxicity" ;)
You said in another thread that you believe a person would have to bring down their carb consumption to lower than 30 grams a day to begin keto-adaptation. What do you think about eating less than 30 grams of carbs per day for 5 or 6 days a week, and then eating high carbs on one or two days? Is there anything in your research or personal experience that would give you a clue as to whether that would completely stall adaptation or not?
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Yeah, I have to agree with Lex. Detox in a dietary sense may come from its medical usage concerning toxic drug rehabilitation, then converting that to a cooked foods or meats or you fill in the noun here "____________ are poison!"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detoxification
"Certain approaches in alternative medicine claim to remove toxins from the body through herbal, electrical or electromagnetic treatments (such as the Aqua Detox treatment). These toxins are undefined and have little scientific basis,[1] making the validity of such techniques questionable. There is no evidence for toxic accumulation in these cases,[1] as the liver and kidneys automatically detoxify and excrete many toxic materials including metabolic wastes. Under this theory if toxins are too rapidly released without being safely eliminated (such as burning fat that stores toxins) they can damage the body and cause malaise. Therapies include contrast showers, detoxification foot pads, oil pulling, Gerson therapy, snake-stones, body cleansing, Scientology's Purification Rundown, water fasting, and metabolic therapy.[8]"
You know, your body is detoxifying substances all the time. It's called waste and it's why we pee and poo and sweat. There is no magic behind it, unless you want to make a quick buck on the gullibility of another.
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What do you think about eating less than 30 grams of carbs per day for 5 or 6 days a week, and then eating high carbs on one or two days? Is there anything in your research or personal experience that would give you a clue as to whether that would completely stall adaptation or not?
Actually, this is fully covered in Lyle McDonald's book "The Ketogenic Diet". What you suggest is a protocol often used by weight lifters. As to the completeness of adaptation etc., who knows, but Lyle covers the pros and cons from a body building and sports performance aspect.
http://www.amazon.com/Ketogenic-Diet-Complete-Dieter-Practitioner/dp/0967145600/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240448341&sr=8-2
A ketogenic diet with a weekly carb cycle would not be "Paleo" by any stretch of the imagination, however, I expect that Paleo man did cycle in and out of dietary ketosis on an annual or maybe biannual basis. This assumes that Paleo man ate some fruits and veggies in the one or two times per year that they were available (at least in the climates north and south of the tropics).
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Kyle,
I did a little review of my older copy of Lyle's book. It seems that the cyclic ketogenic diet is designed to keep you from fully adapting to a fat/ketone based metabolism. The idea being that body builders want the anabolic effects of the insulin. They try to leverage the effects of the ketogenic state on the days they don't work out, but then eat carbs on workout days to raise insulin to high levels for the anabolic muscle building effect.
I think this sorta defeats the idea of a paleo lifestyle. If you want to follow up on it, your best bet would be to Google "ketogenic diet" and "body building" to get the low down from the body building forums and websites.
Lyle's book is a good resource as well, but rather pricey at $50. I bought mine several years ago when the price was a mere $40. I keep it for reference but haven't found it very relevent to a true paleo lifestyle.
Lex
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Hmm, well I'm not into sport bodybuilding anymore but I do still lift weights and would like to at least be able to maintain an athletic physique and have good lb/lb strength for grappling competitions. Do you think a zero or very low carb diet could achieve that? I've heard that short term endurance goes down, and grappling is pretty anaerobic in nature.
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Hmm, well I'm not into sport bodybuilding anymore but I do still lift weights and would like to at least be able to maintain an athletic physique and have good lb/lb strength for grappling competitions. Do you think a zero or very low carb diet could achieve that? I've heard that short term endurance goes down, and grappling is pretty anaerobic in nature.
I definitely think you can do this zero carb or vlc, Kyle. Most martial arts are anaerobic in nature for the most part. I would highly suggest that you explore the exercise section over at the zeroinginonhealth forum. There are a ton of people over there (~750 members since Oct '08) eating all carnivore doing various activities without issue. Some are raw, some not. But Charles does stress cooking less and less. He has gotten into shorter distance track racing lately, and his teen boy is zc and into taekwondo fighting. Charles has gained about 5 lbs of muscle recently too This idea that we need carbs to function at a high performance is an urban myth. Anyone that can't go 6 months without carbs should be out of the gene pool in no time; were we back in the day before agriculture, that would be the case in an ice age winter.
You can always gradually cut back on carbs. That's what I did. Now I eat none and went through no phase of feeling like shit. Just like 2 days of a bit of brain drain. Maybe I will feel bad later; I will let you know if I do. But you have to try it for yourself and have the will to deal with a bit of discomfort. Otherwise you will never know. It is so worth it!
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At first I was thinking I wouldn't try it but now that I'm on a lower carb diet and getting more used to it I'm starting to think I might be able to give it a try sometime in the near future. I would want to make sure I'm fully stocked with pemmican and various types of jerky to make sure I have food at a whim, not being prepared has messed up plans like this for me before.
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Way out of my league Kyle. I really know nothing about body building and strength training. I'm a 98 lb weakling complete with large yellow stripe down my back. To really keep the 'cut' look requires consistent work and I just don't want to put in the time. I have way too many other interests and things that I truly enjoy doing to waste valuable time in a gym pushing cast iron weights around while accomplishing little of value other than creating artificial muscle that I have no other use for.
As long as I can successfully wrestle the trash cans to the curb every week, I'm good.
Lex
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At first I was thinking I wouldn't try it but now that I'm on a lower carb diet and getting more used to it I'm starting to think I might be able to give it a try sometime in the near future. I would want to make sure I'm fully stocked with pemmican and various types of jerky to make sure I have food at a whim, not being prepared has messed up plans like this for me before.
Good idea on the having food available. You may have to increase the fat intake too. Just take it one day at a time. My energy has increased slightly overall. My son has totally taken to this, and I have absolutely nothing to do with it (I tell him to eat the fruit). He may eat soaked, dried nuts from time to time, but he is totally going native boy. My meat purchases have increased a lot. But it's also really easy to do. Cheaper too methinks.
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You said that there were changes your body went through, periods of discomfort or low energy, every time you changed something significantly in your diet. Here's a list of what I've noticed, please comment on whether or not this stuff happened to you:
muscle and/or joint pain (almost feels like a pinched nerve)
feelings of reluctance to exercise, like you're heart isn't in it
dizziness and mild nausea during exercise
soreness in muscles you didn't think was warranted
increased sweating during exercise
The thing that worried me the most was the dizziness. I already wrote this but to repeat I was wrestling in bjj class and felt fine although I was sweating more than usual or more than I thought I should be, then all of a sudden I sat up and got light headed and nauseous.
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I am not Lex, but I am at the beginning stages of this experiment, and I plan to go through at least 3 months, unless something major happens, which I do not foresee.
muscle and/or joint pain (almost feels like a pinched nerve)
No, but I got a wicked calf cramp in the middle of the night. I had been craving whole dried anchovies and canned salmon with bones yesterday. Now I know why - Ca, Mg, and/or K deficiency. This is common at the beginning, and long time zcers say it goes away. I plan to make sure I get plenty of bones in my diet, including stocks. In the short term, I will take supplements too. I am committed to teaching taekwondo 4 days a week, and I just can't mess with performance right now. This cramp was so bad my gastrognemius (sp?) is now slightly strained from it.
feelings of reluctance to exercise, like you're heart isn't in it
Never. I have felt like perhaps my energy wasn't high, but my performance never suffers from this. As a woman, my energy cycles monthly anyway. I always feel good about working out. With zc there are no highs and lows. Endurance is great.
dizziness and mild nausea during exercise
I have low blood pressure and can get dizzy from it on occasion. I can get dizzy doing spin kicks on the same leg repeatedly too. I have never experienced nausea.
soreness in muscles you didn't think was warranted
Yes, at the beginning. Your muscles will get stronger eating this way. My son told me yesterday that I look leaner and stronger! Coming from him, that means a lot to me.
increased sweating during exercise
Who knows. I sweat so much anyway, I don't know if I could tell the difference.
The thing that worried me the most was the dizziness. I already wrote this but to repeat I was wrestling in bjj class and felt fine although I was sweating more than usual or more than I thought I should be, then all of a sudden I sat up and got light headed and nauseous.
I would suggest that you wean your way off of carbs. First, strictly avoid all sweet fruits, including berries. Stick with a bit of avocado, olives and greens. Stuff like that, and only once a day. Then reduce further over time. Count the carbs if you must and keep it 20 or lower always decreasing over time.
Have your blood pressure checked. Sounds like orthostatic hypotension, and I have had this off and on my whole life. My bp can be as low as 90/50.
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muscle and/or joint pain (almost feels like a pinched nerve)
feelings of reluctance to exercise, like you're heart isn't in it
dizziness and mild nausea during exercise
soreness in muscles you didn't think was warranted
increased sweating during exercise
Kyle,
Yup, I went through all if it over many months time, and over time all of it went away. Satya mentions severe muscle cramps which I had as well, and again, over time they too have gone away. I did add a bit of salt (1g - 2g) to my food everyday in an effort to reduce the cramping which helped, but have even dropped that for the most part and all is well.
I must say that my ability to create intense bursts of physical energy seems to have bee permanently compromised, but my overall endurance has increased significantly. It is also interesting that this endurance seems to be available when I need it without constant conditioning to keep it available. I'm sure it would be even much better than it is if I did do regular conditioning work, but the difference between what I can do without consistent exercise as a carnivore, and what I could do under the same conditions as a vegan is like night and day.
I don't think zero carb is a magic bullet, but as with everything in life there are trade-offs. You just have to decide what's most important to you and move in that direction. I have given GS a bad time about the large amounts of fruit he says he consumes as I don't think that his level of consumption of carbs is anywhere in line with a paleolithic lifestyle. That said, I'm not sure that eating 30g - 75g of carbs per day is a bad thing. It would probably keep you out of ketosis, and remove the requirement for such a long term adaptation that I have gone through, while maintaining a better ability for extended energy bursts.
Remember also that I had significant palpable health issues - unbelievably severe migraine headaches as well as the obvious onset of "the diseases of civilization" (diabetes, high blood pressure, enlarged prostate, obesity et.al.). You are very young, and if you keep your carb consumption below 75g per day you may avoid these things all together. I'm not convinced that zero carb is the Holy Grail of a paleo diet even though it works well for me. However, I am fairly convinced that copious consumption of sugary fruits and juices is the antithesis of paleo and should be avoided.
VLC (no more than 5% calories from carbs) is probably a very good compromise for someone who is young and eats only paleo friendly carbs for the small amount eaten. I've chosen to stay zero carb for the time being as it has been so successful for me. If you haven't spent some time reading through the amazing amount of information on Peter's Hyperlipid blog, might I suggest that you do. It may well help you make up your mind as to how best for you to proceed. Peter's blog can be found here. Go back and read through all the archives, it will be well worth your while.
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/
Satya pointed me to this bit in Peter's blog on fruits an veggies. It was written in late 2007 - quite interesting.
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2007/12/fruit-and-vegetables-re-post.html
Keep us posted on what you find, the direction you choose to take, and how it works for you. Just remember that overall adaptation to a significant lifestyle and dietary change can take many months and there will be peaks and valleys along the way.
Lex
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Lex, may I ask you - you have eyes and a strong mind...over the years your life style got your system in to trouble (diabetes, high blood pressure, enlarged prostate, obesity et.al.). Did this have to do with your wife's cooking and if so, is she in good health / was she in good health before? You must be able to compare your life style and health not with what is going on around you.
My parents have never been extream in any thing, have never fasted or done any form of "special" diet - my mother cooks and they eat...some processed and some plain food. They have their little problems but just seem to keep a steady routine.
Nicola
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Nicola,
I'll answer this in Kyle's journal to keep continuity, but best if you ask questions like this in my Journal.
My wife is Greek and very driven by Greek culture. She grew up in a small village of 60 families and many of the decedents from those families came to the USA and settled here in the Los Angeles area.
She is 65 (7 years older than I am). She has had significant health issues for over 15 years, all diet related. She eats large amounts of pasta, rice and bread - these are the mainstays of her diet along with large amounts of olive oil. She goes through a gallon of olive oil or more every month.
She has had her gallbladder removed, appendix removed, and has been in the hospital 5 times in the last 2 years for blocked bile and pancreatic ducts. She is about 85 pounds overweight at 5'0" - 220 lbs (152cm, 100kg). She takes medication for diabetes, cholesterol, and high blood pressure. All of this could easily be addressed through diet but eating is more important to her than her health.
Lex
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I'll check out that blog, thanks lex.
From that little bit about fruits and veggies real quick I'm starting to think that a little bit of raw fermented or even cooked veggies is more paleo and healthy than an equal amount of raw fruit, unless you can find wild fruit. From what little I know about wild fruits, it seems the only good tasting ones are berries, all the wild ancestors of other fruits I've read about have been said to be very seedy, and either tart or sour with little sweetness, sometimes even starchy and completely unappealing. Although now that I think of it I've heard figs are good in their wild state and make up a large part of many apes diets. A fig tree would grow where I live too, maybe I'll try planting one.
Would you make a comment on what you believe to be the most paleo friendly and health friendly source of carbs? Last week I had a bone broth soup and put in some onion, mushrooms and asparagus as those three produce section goodies seem to be on the "closer to their wild brethren" side of the spectrum, in particular mushrooms. Onions in the wild I believe are like a grass with a tiny onion bulb in the ground, and wild asparagus I think I read is just smaller.
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i was just thinking about making a topic about this.... which plant foods are most paleo? it seems most people on here are moving away from plants, but i still use them and think they are useful. I still eat greens, some vegetables, nuts, seeds, and very little sweet fruit, just berries, including a little bit of goji berries. Ive been eating a lot of coconut and avocado lately. I think our ancestors would have incorporated some plant matter. I currently use chia seeds, some steamed quinoa, walnuts, dandelion greens, mustard greens, onion, and garlic. Im gonna try some mushrooms too apart from the reishi tea i make.
funny you mentioned about cooked and fermented as well. after being raw vegan and now transitioning to paleo, i find cooking vegetables may be useful. ive been making some soups with root vegetables such as burdock and turnips, celery root, parsnips. also just got some kim chee this week.
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Kyle & Tim,
I'm really not sure what would be true paleo. TylerD sent me a link showing that herbs were in use, at least medicinally or ceremonially at least 60,000 years ago as there have been some excavated sites showing burials with plant material in the graves. To me 60K years is still pretty recent and more Mesolithic than Paleolithic but I guess you can interpert the dates any way you wish.
Real wild plants like wild dandylions, burdock, lambsquarter, and purselane are pretty common weeds. They are tough, stringy and some are really bitter but they are edible. I ate my share of them trying to live off the land when I was younger. None of the stuff in the market, either fruits or veggies is anywhere near what would be found in the wild. Also, most wild annuals in North America have a very short season in the wild as they only grow during and directly after the rainy season. In most of the southwestern states all the plants are dried up and gone to seed by the end of April and May at the latest. The wild fruits don't arrive until late August/September timeframe and they're gone by mid October. Usually the birds wipe out all the fruits just before they ripen so it's tough to get any unless you go to great lengths to protect the plants with nets.
I did find a patch of wild strawberries once - at least I was told they were wild. They were about the size of a large pea, bright red, lots of tiny seeds on the outside skin like a normal strawberry but much closer together. They weren't sweet - more bland and pithy, but did have a mild strawberry-like flavor. Nothing to write home about.
Good idea to start a thread on the subject.
Lex
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I did find a patch of wild strawberries once - at least I was told they were wild. They were about the size of a large pea, bright red, lots of tiny seeds on the outside skin like a normal strawberry but much closer together. They weren't sweet - more bland and pithy, but did have a mild strawberry-like flavor. Nothing to write home about.
The wild strawberries I found were the opposite of bland - flavour was so intense that the little sweetness was hardly noticed.
They grow wild in my front yard, but I've never seen the berries - the %*^&$#^^&( squirrels must get them all.
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I've stuck pretty low carb still. I have a slight head ache now. Also I don't feel as good as I used to after eating my normal meals of beef cubes and suet. I feel almost bloated, even though I'm not combining carbs with it like I sometimes do.
I will start keeping track of my weight, which I wasn't following too closely before. Today I weighed about 158 lbs, which is what I remember weighing for a while now.
Hey lex, I haven't been weighing my food to keep track of calories, but maybe you could help me estimate. I usually fill a bowel with perhaps 3/4 lbs of beef cubes, maybe a little bit more, and then fill a smaller bowel with suet I cut into chunks. I would estimate the suet volume to be about the volume of a half pound of muscle meat, but I'm assuming it weighs less because of less water content. If I were to eat roughly that twice a day, a little less than a pound of muscle meat and about half that volume in suet, how many calories do you think that would be?
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Can't help you much with accurate calories Kyle, unless you have a fairly accurate weight of food components. If you want me to SWAG it, here goes:
Assuming beef cubes with 10% fat you have about 18.5% protein
Normal suet is about 60% fat.
If you have 3/4 lb lean beef cubes and say 1/3 lb fat then:
0.75 lb meat = 340 grams
0.33 lb raw fat = 150 grams
If your lean meat is 10% fat and 18.5% protein then you would have 34 grams fat and 63 grams protein.
Raw fat is about 60% fat with the rest being water and connective tissue so the suet would represent about 90 grams of fat.
34 grams fat from the meat + 90 grams fat from the suet is 124 grams total fat.
Calories from fat would be 9 x 124 = 1,116
Calories from protein is 4 x 63 = 252
Total calorie intake for a meal = 1368 x 2 meals per day = 2736 calories per day.
You are getting (2 x 1116)/2736 = .82 or 82% calories from fat
You are getting (2 x 252) / 2736 = .18 or 18% calories from protein
Best I can do without better estimates of fat content of the lean meat and actual weights of the meat and suet.
Lex
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Thanks lex. I have a little scale and if I feel strongly enough about it I'll break it out and weigh the usual amount of suet I eat. The scale only goes up to 100 grams so I would probably have to use a tared container and weigh several portions. With the meat it would take even longer. That's why I didn't feel like doing it.
So last night I had a head ache and didn't feel much like eating. For lunch I had my usual fare, and at night I just had a little bit of heart and then a little bit of suet. I'm trying to keep my weight at least where it is now while I go through these changes. Oh also I had perhaps a tablespoon of honey at lunch.
I don't know what it is keeping me from doing my normal cheat meals.
The most challenging part is that I'm feeling a little less good than normal and also not enjoying my food.
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I had a cheat meal last night and it's much like I expected, I felt the same as any other time. It's really a bummer I can't eat spicy food anymore without getting stomach cramps.
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I never really could eat really spicy food without getting stomach cramps, even on SAD. I loved indian food, but whenever I ate it I had horrible indigestion followed by a lot of gas. After a while I decided that even though I loved the flavors of spicy foods, they weren't worth the discomfort that followed.
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It's a hard lesson to learn.
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I've been very derelict in my journal.
Update, I'm going to give zero carb, or as close as I can come to it, a try for this week and see what happens. I have a modeling meeting (possible new job opportunity in the works for me) and want to see if there will be a short term loss of a bit of fat and water weight, and maybe a skin improvement.
Then I will probably go to eating perhaps a piece of fruit a day along with muscle meat, fat and organs. I'm slowly giving up the idea that I can have a cheat day, as every time I try that the effects end up being more negative that the meal is worth. Sometimes the meal isn't even that good, it's more the anticipation and memory of how much I used to like this or that. I'll have to try and keep my mind occupied with coming up with an exciting fruit to try a bit of rather than planning out a restaurant trip once a week.
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My weekend was a little crazy. Friday night I had a headache, got to my friends house, he was having a huge loud party, and I had to get to sleep so I could wake up at 6:00 am the next morning. I didn't bother eating a dinner as I wasn't in the mood to be the center of attention for my raw meat eating with my headache and all, I was already the center of attention for having to go to sleep to get up the next day for this modeling gig. I used to like being different, but with food it's getting old.
Anyway, the headache went away during the night, although I didn't sleep much. Some of my friends were still up and partying when I got up.
I've been sticking pretty close to my new plan. I had some raw cheese I bought a couple weeks ago that I ate a couple times throughout the week, and had a couple teaspoons of raw honey last night. Saturday night I had some fruit salad with walnuts and honey drizzled on it, that was pretty damn good. I limited myself to a small bowl full. And during this week I've been eating pretty much all muscle and fat, sometimes with a sauce on it. The down side is that the sauce isn't raw or anything like that, but I just try to put a little on to keep up my interest in the food. I find that the longer I go without eating something off the diet, especially if I'm at or near zero carb for a few days, raw meat meals look less and less appealing.
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Oh geez, it's been a while. Well I certainly went off my diet a bit recently due to social reasons. New girlfriend and all. I made some pemmican recently which was fun. I might go in for some more cooked paleo type stuff while cooking for my gf and friends to try and bring them over to a better diet. Not a bad compromise I think.
One thing I noticed is dandruff after consuming a lot of carbs. It will be interesting to see how quickly or if that goes away once I lower them back down to my previous levels.
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I'm having trouble keeping up with the forum anymore. If anyone has a question for me or a thread I was posting in and forget to respond, please pm me about it if you can.
I'm mostly raw paleo still, trying to keep it real. My girlfriend even tried a piece of raw ox liver this weekend. I didn't even ask her too. That's the best way to get people to try something, not try, just lead by example and anyone with half a brain and curious nature will eventually want give it a try.
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I'm gonna try and do a Primal Diet experiment. No green juice though, maybe a green salad every few days instead. My girlfriend said she'd try it with me.
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I'm gonna try and do a Primal Diet experiment. No green juice though, maybe a green salad every few days instead. My girlfriend said she'd try it with me.
Let us know what your diet will consist of. I'll post up something similar when
I get my 30 lbs of fat this Friday -v
haha.
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I'm gonna have to wait until I can place another order with my co op, but I'm thinking one or two of the Primal diet moisturizing formulas a day, probably with less honey cause I try to keep the carbs lower then AV recommends. Then maybe a milkshake every day, maybe less often. Other than that just stick to what I'm doing, raw muscle, fat and organs. And then every once in a while a green salad with non sweet fruits and maybe a raw dressing. I'm more adding some Primal things than doing exactly what AV says. I will not go back to green juice, it's way to expensive, time consuming and doesn't even make me feel good.
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Well my Primal Diet experiment ended pretty quickly with mildly negative results. Just like I remembered dairy shakes, however raw and grass fed, make me feel a little bloated. The feeling is actually worse then most cooked foods. I'm thinking liquid foods might hit the digestive system to fast and hard, not to mention the allergic nature of the proteins and sugars in dairy.
More broadly I'm coming slowly to the conclusion that cooked paleo foods, at least for me, are better than raw non paleo foods. Even the foods some people claim as paleo, like most fruits.
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What other negative results do you have? or is it simply bloated feeling?
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Well unfortunately I don't notice a whole lot of things when I change what I eat. I think in the grand spectrum I'm much less sensitive to food than many of the people on this forum. One thing I notice though is dairy does tend to give me a stuffy nose, especially when I'm going to bed that night. That's the only thing I notice consistently other than the constipation.
One another topic I'm looking at schools to apply to for a biology or related PhD program. I found at UPenn in Philadelphia some interesting stuff, like paleobiology, but the staff I've been emailing are discouraging.
Here's how the conversation went. I said greetings, then this:
"More importantly I'm interested in applying to UPenn as a graduate student, I earned my B.S. in biology at Rowan University in Spring 2008, and could use advice on a program. My main interest in biology is diet/nutrition and it's effects on disease, how nutrition works with genetics, etc. My second interest is in ecology. I think I would be happy doing research in any topic related to those, but my main passion has to do with the effects of diet on health, looking at how different food processing techniques change the food at the molecular level and gene expression ala epigenetics. Do you have any staff working on anything like that? I'm at the seminal part of my grad school search so any advice would help."
and this was the first response:
"Thank you for your interest in the Biology Graduate Program at the University of Pennsylvania. I will be glad to answer your questions and assist you through the admissions process.
The University of Pennsylvania does have a Paleobiology Program and Ocean Biogeochemistry program, but they are in our Department of Earth and Environmental Sciences Department, not in Biology. Here is a link to the website - http://www.sas.upenn.edu/earth/research.htm. However, it is possible that you were also reviewing Penn State University's website. They have Paleoecology and Oceanography.
Penn State University is a different institution than the University of Pennsylvania, but sometimes, people do confuse the two schools. Penn State is a state-run school with campuses throughout the state of Pennsylvania. The University of Pennsylvania is a private school with one campus located in Philadelphia, PA. Please note that our application process is not connected at all. There have been a few cases where someone is applying to our program and meant to apply to Penn State, and vice versa.
Penn State's website is http://www.gradsch.psu.edu/prospective/.
The Biology Department does not have a program in diet and nutrition. There is a possibility that the Biomedical Graduate Studies Program in the Medical School may have something of interest to you. They have programs on diseases and genetics, but I am not sure about diet and nutrition. Their web page is http://www.med.upenn.edu/bgs/index.shtml. The Cell and Molecular Biology Program has sub-divisions in Cancer Biology, Gene therapy, and Genetics.
Our School of Nursing does have a Nutrition minor for undergraduates. They also have a Doctoral Program which is one that develops an individualized plan of study. You may wish to contact this department to see if they can assist you with your goals of studying diet/nutrition and efforts on disease. Their web page is http://www.nursing.upenn.edu/admissions/doctoral/Pages/about.aspx."
which was pretty ambiguous and not helpful, so I decided to give a little information about my interests, and this is what I got. this next message was from another staff member, the first one forwarded my second email and asked if they had any suggestions:
"It sounds like your interests mostly relate to human nutrition. This is not Penn's area of strength, but we do offer a minor in nutrition through the Nursing School. I think you should explore the programs at Penn State. But, don't tell them about your interest in the paleo diet. No one really knows what people ate before the invention of agriculture, and they will think you are a nut. In any case, this interest is not the sort of thing you build a career on."
I left out the greetings and sincerelys, but that's the body of my correspondences so far. Not very encouraging at all, that last one very discouraging, in a lightly put kind of way. The main reason I didn't go straight to grad school in the first place was the attitude of the biologists I'd come into contact with. I knew that I would have to keep my mouth shut about certain stuff and go along with the pack until I finish a program, but right off the bat I'm getting dismissive emails from staff. I'm not going to give up or anything, but it's very frustrating to see that biologists are mostly concerned with building their careers and don't seem to care about respecting nature and learning about it. These days biology is about fighting nature, dominating it, and the results as we've seen tend to blow up in faces. Science is great and all, but most of the journal articles I read seem weak science at best, and the attitude of the scientists is arrogant and like I've said dismissive of other viewpoints. There is more money to be made in genetic engineering and the production of pharmaceuticals, which is probably a big reason.
So it's an uphill battle, but I'm going to try and get into a program somewhere and eventually try and do some research towards the end of getting studies about raw/paleo foods/lifestyle in the mainstream of scientific journals. Wish me luck!
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Well if we ever manage to get an article on health benefits of raw foods in New Scientist magazine then we will have really reached the mainstream. In the meantime we do have plenty of studies damning cooked foods.
Any rate, good luck with the above.
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Anyone have any advice?
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advice as far as what? other programs? making yourself more attractive to UPenn? I think you are right towards the end about how biology depts. probably work in terms of phiosophy and incentives. Other than position in academia, it might not be the most fruitful career path in terms of $ for yourself and research if that is a deterrent, but I don't think your ideals will prevent you from landing yourself within a program that works for you.
There was a recent post on some Anthropological diet mega-seminar, showing a sign of more acceptance of evolutionary approaches within nutrition in Academia if not medicine.
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/infonews-items/ancestral-health-symposium/
perhaps there are people featured there you could contact or their respective universities about their experiences with less than popular research.
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heres a few I spotted:
Daniel Lieberman, PhD, Harvard University, Professor of Human Evolutionary Biology
http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~skeleton/danlhome.html
Craig Stanford, PhD, USC, Professor of Anthropology, Director Jane Goodall Research Center
http://college.usc.edu/labs/stanford/home/index.cfm
not saying these programs would be best, but the individuals probably would know at least what you are talking about and if it would be plausible to make it work at a University which might not seem as accommodating, or know of more related programs. can't hurt :/
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Thanks a lot, I'm gonna check out those leads.
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Thanks a lot, I'm gonna check out those leads.
I think I read somewhere, probably here, that Dr. Price's book was required reading in Harvard's anthropology program. I definitely think that anthropology and human evolutionary biology are more fruitful areas of study.
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Anyone have any advice?
Write to someone in academia who works in evolutionary nutrition (or evolutionary medicine), tell them about your interests, and ask for advice. Some well-known people working in this field are Staffan Lindeberg, Loren Cordain, and Boyd Eaton.
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Another person who might be able to give you some advice, is Stephan from this blog:
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/
In particular, take a look at this post:
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/08/dr-stephan.html
He's interested in nutrition and paleodiet, but his doctoral thesis was about something different. I wonder if
he wanted to do a thesis on paleo nutrition, but couldn't find a willing supervisor. That's something you could
ask him.
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If you still think it might be dietary detox let me know and I'll send you some of my world famous Lex's Detox Diet Aid. It's a proprietary "all natural" blend of the worst tasting things I can find made into an alcohol infusion. It's just $250 USD per oz. but you need to act quickly as supplys are limited. You put one drop under your tongue 1/2 hour before each meal and again at bed time. (There's a 50% discount if you sign up for my monthly automatic reorder plan.) I guarantee you'll be feeling better in no time. Of course, on the off chance the problem is greater than expected, you may wish to order my all natural Super Herbal Nutritional Supplement made from 120 exotic healing herb and fruit extracts plus Colonol Sander's 11 Secret Herbs and Spices, Aroma Therapy Candles (contains real camel dung from the Sahara Desert), Tantric Reflexology Chart, and Super Pyramid Color Light Spectrum Filter (cheap iridescent prismatic Mylar sheet mounted in a pyramid shaped cardboard frame) for your reading lamp. Contact me directly for a package deal.
The sad thing is I actually fell for this nonsense myself.......more than once I might add -[,
Lex
Thanks Lex, your sense of humour is incredibly good, you made me laugh ;D
I do believe in the theory about toxins and poisons that are leaving our bodies as soon as we switch to a 100% raw food diet.
The best description of the whole process can be found on the website founded by famous Stanley Bass.
According to him, all we can do to speed up the process of detoxification is to let our body rest as much as possible.
And that's what I'm doing these days. It works for me and many other people - plenty of rest, pure water and raw food (no silly detox aid or other nonsense).
However, I do have a secret detox weapon - it's hot water in my bath! (helps me every time and brings so much pleasure and relaxation) ;D
And it's the best aid for headache and other ailments/detox symptoms/healing crisis etc.
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Unfortunately it seems the two schools that keep being recommended to me for biological anthropology, Penn State and Rutgers (New Brunswick) aren't really a comfortable commute for me.
I'm thinking I might look more into cellular/molecular biology. I could do stuff with how carbs and fat and protein work in cells. That's always a hot topic here, and scientific data about it is as yet sparse. I think I could find grant money from places like diabetes foundation for some of that work. It would be more difficult to find funding for any kind of raw food molecular research, but I could try.
My main concern is that I think I would enjoy the classes more in anthropology rather than cell/molecular. But it seems I might be able to do more in the end, in terms of making $ and even doing diet research, with the latter. That combined with the distance issue for anthropology schools is making it seem more attractive as an option. That Stephan guy on wholehealthsource.blogspot did work on something about brain fat regulation, I didn't read too much into it yet. I think I could find something to do at least in the world of paleo diet, if not raw paleo diet.
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I'm thinking I might look more into cellular/molecular biology. I could do stuff with how carbs and fat and protein work in cells. That's always a hot topic here, and scientific data about it is as yet sparse.
If that is the same as microbiology, I suggest you look into the death rate of microbiologists before deciding.
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Maybe try sharing your interests with Stephan and asking for suggestions?
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If that is the same as microbiology, I suggest you look into the death rate of microbiologists before deciding.
It's a little different. I don't think I would share the death rate of a group based on profession, since probably 100% of microbiologists or cellular biologists do not eat anything near a RPD. What I'm doing now is probably bad for my health, chemistry.
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Maybe try sharing your interests with Stephan and asking for suggestions?
Definitely. I hope I get some encouraging feedback.
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It's a little different. I don't think I would share the death rate of a group based on profession, since probably 100% of microbiologists or cellular biologists do not eat anything near a RPD. What I'm doing now is probably bad for my health, chemistry.
The unusually high death rate noticed was "accidental", such as a car leaving the roadway and nailing someone walking on a sidewalk, and self-strangling with sugical rubber hose.
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as another possible contact, heres something I just came across:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/13/AR2008051300583_2.html?sid=ST2008051302252
"As long as this meat is still microbiologically safe, it is at its best raw or frozen fresh."
Harriet V. Kuhnlein, professor of human nutrition at the Centre for Indigenous Peoples' Nutrition and Environment at McGill University in Montreal.
GL
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Nice find, thanks!
I have been thinking long and hard about it and am leaning towards the paleo biology department at U Penn. I maybe could study human bones from paleo times and use some kind of technique to find out what they were eating. Things like tooth wear, bone composition, etc.
I emailed that Stephan guy and he said I should get into endocrinology or immunology. Those sound borderline medical to me. And when I really think about my day to day life I believe I would be happier going on archaeological digs and looking at bones more than putting tubes into machines.
Since there's not an unlimited choice of topics out there, and mostly because certain academic paths have been created that you can't really stray from that much, my goal from idea to execution appears convoluted.
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I want to do a zero carb experiment. I'm thinking of controlling strictly (as I don't really now, just eat mostly raw meat and it works out to low carb) my carb intake for a while and then cutting them out completely, so as to make the transition less abrupt. Maybe two weeks at 50 or less grams, two weeks at 25 or less, then zero.
My goal with this experiment is to find out if I can treat my flaky skin (mostly scalp) with very low or zero carbs. Other than occasional low energy, my skin being flaky is the only health problem that I seem to have. And my skin isn't dry either, which leads me to believe it's exogenous candida.
Does anyone have experience treating something like that by cutting back or out carbs? How long might it take to see results?
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Does anyone have experience treating something like that by cutting back or out carbs? How long might it take to see results?
I've been successful treating my Tinea Versicolor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinea_versicolor) by eating raw carnivore. It used to be really bad (so extensive that I looked tan on my arms because there was no skin free of it) but 6+ months of raw carnivore had it almost completely gone. The 2 weeks or so where I splurged with carbs brought it back noticeably but it's diminishing again as I keep on the straight and narrow.
For the record the Tinea has gone hand-in-hand with the Candida waxing & waning so it's obviously somehow connected. For all I know it's not even Tinea as there was no testing done just a doctor's visual observation and identification.
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I don't have extensive ZC experience, but I've had the worst itchy flaky scalp. I don't think it would have flaked by itself on my shoulders like in the commercials, but if I scratched it myself it was massive coverage :). I had terrible fatigue as well, so that in addition to previous serious health history, assumed it to be candida. I've probably had 1-2 fruits per 2 wk on average for 4 months, and that cleared up any scalp flaking pretty quick -even wetting/washing only once per week- but only slight improvements on the fatigue unfortunately. I take in some carbs from vegetables (juices) but that is pretty minimal, and so far feel more fatigue without when doing small spurts on totally ZC 1-2 wk max so far. As for transition it makes sense to me to eat mostly how you usually do, and eat some carbs every few days->week, and then drop them or not, rather than eating a restricted but set number of carbs per day.
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...Other than occasional low energy, my skin being flaky is the only health problem that I seem to have. And my skin isn't dry either, which leads me to believe it's exogenous candida.
Does anyone have experience treating something like that by cutting back or out carbs? How long might it take to see results?
Yes. It didn't take long. I vaguely recall about a week or so to see substantial results. I still get a little during the winter on my brow, forehead and scalp from dry, windy weather even when ZC, but much less than before. I've reintroduced some carbs and when I eat too much carbs the flaky skin comes back the next day.
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Yes. It didn't take long. I vaguely recall about a week or so to see substantial results. I still get a little during the winter on my brow, forehead and scalp from dry, windy weather even when ZC, but much less than before. I've reintroduced some carbs and when I eat too much carbs the flaky skin comes back the next day.
So do you think it's candida or something else? My belief is that most dry skin conditions come from either too little proper fats or candida. I don't think I could be seriously deficient in fats since I eat grass fed fat constantly, so I'm leaning towards the candida. I've never gone more than a week with zero carbs before. I don't plan on sticking with it forever, but it will be very interesting to me to see if it changes my skin, or maybe something else I'm not even looking for.
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I used to get flaky skin a lot, but that went away on a raw, omnivorous diet.
As for the issues re getting used to raw zero-carb, there are 2 catches. 1 , of course, is the transitional period in which one starts getting various side-effects(minor to serious), which can start from a few days to c.2-3 weeks after going raw zero-carb but, usually, it seems that if you can go 6 weeks plus without a major incident, you'll get through that.
The other issue is that when one goes for a long time on raw,very low-carb, one commonly starts developing food-intolerances to fruits if one hasn't had those food-intolerances before. This is simply because the body changes re types of enzymes/bacteria used etc., so that it's more oriented towards a raw-meat-based diet and can't digest plant foods without poor absorption/minor stomach-upsets etc. occurring.
One can get used again re digesting raw carbs without incident, over time, if one pigs out on them enough, albeit with a few minor side-effects as you transition back. So, I reckon it would probably make more sense to go into(or out of) raw zero-carb very quickly without a VLC stage.
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Kyle try 2 weeks zero carb, that should kill it.
Marrow is great for shiny hair also.
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Kyle try 2 weeks zero carb, that should kill it.
Marrow is great for shiny hair also.
2 weeks that's it? Reads too good to be true. I've eaten a lot of marrow recently, and I've always had pretty good hair. My other problem with hair is that I don't know what kind of shampoo to use. I've been using shampoo from a company called "Moroccan Method" which is supposedly raw and organic. I mix in some baking powder with it because the shampoo alone doesn't seem to remove much oil.
I've gone through the symptoms of zero carb transitioning before and can handle them I think, the one thing I don't know if I can take is how unappealing the food becomes. After a few days raw fat and organs become disgusting and muscle becomes barely tolerable. I don't know if I can live like that very long, I don't insist on eating the world's tastiest foods but I do insist on enjoying my food.
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i could see the 2 weeks for sure. for how bad off i was, i was nearly normal after two weeks of raw meat/fat. after 5 days my symptoms significantly lessened which is about when i started my journal. weird too because after the first meal i knew i was getting better even though i had nothing physical to show for what i could intuit to be a good thing.
as for oily or flaky scalp, how about white vinegar?
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So do you think it's candida or something else?
Since VLC/ZC keeps the dry skin in check and since the standard dietary treatment for candidiasis is a VLC/ZC diet, and since I'm already eating a zinc-rich diet and use fats and lotions on my skin and tea tree oil on my scalp when needed, I'm not sure what difference it would make if it is candidiasis. Is there any special therapy you recommend for candidiasis that would differ from what I'm already doing?
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Hi everyone. Hi Raw Kyle. This is my first post. I really like this forum there is a good mix of people. I have been lurking for a little bit, and just registered because of your scalp issue. Anyway let me get to it.
I suffered from a flakey scalp for years, unbearable itchiness, dryness (yet my skin tends to be oily), redness. The only relief I got was by shaving my head on a regular basis. It was misdiagnosed as psoriasis by an idiot, I mean dermatologist. Western trained doctors are smug sons of bitches as far as I'm concerned and know absolutely nothing about making people healthy. Sorry I digress.
If your scalp is itchy, dry, non stop flakey, red, irritable, etc, you have candida overgrowth on your scalp. You need a ketoconazole 2% shampoo. Trust me this stopped it dead in its tracks. The effect was immediate. I used it for about 2 weeks and thats it, I still have over half the shampoo left, its been near a year now. You can get it from a chemist(drug store).
I tried everything natural and not. I would have poured petrol on my scalp if it would have worked thats how bad it was. Stop your suffering now.
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Ketoconzale works. Anti-fungal.
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Vitamin D-3 softgels have really helped my flaky skin issues, including dandruff. Getting lots of sun seems to help.
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...If your scalp is itchy, dry, non stop flakey, red, irritable, etc, you have candida overgrowth on your scalp. You need a ketoconazole 2% shampoo. Trust me this stopped it dead in its tracks. The effect was immediate. I used it for about 2 weeks and thats it, I still have over half the shampoo left, its been near a year now. You can get it from a chemist(drug store).
I tried everything natural and not. I would have poured petrol on my scalp if it would have worked thats how bad it was. Stop your suffering now. ….
I have ketoconazole 2% shampoo. It helped a little bit, but not much (it does work better for me than any other commercial dandruff shampoo I've tried, like Head & Shoulders, Zincon, pine tar shampoos, etc., none of which worked at all for me), and I used it for much longer than 2 weeks without success. I also don't like the idea of taking that on a regular basis, due to the long term side effects, so I switched to using tea tree oil shampoo a couple times a week. It doesn’t work any better but doesn’t have as much risk of side effects. I use a little all-natural coconut-oil-based shampoo on other days. I don't have redness or irritation (though I used to have bad itching), just dry, flaky scalp. I even tried using baking soda as well as going without shampoo for a while but that didn't help and didn’t care for the way it made my hair feel and look. The only thing that has substantially helped my flaky scalp and skin over the years is cutting down on carbs, but it hasn't fully resolved it yet. I do take CLO and D3 softgels and try to get sunlight.
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I posted this in another thread
"Sounds like sebum related inflammation in your hair follicles. In my opinion (and from my experience) you need more liver for the vitamin A to control this. Try eating an adequate amount of grass fed liver, or taking Dr Ron's raw dried liver supplements everyday."
I suffered from the flaky scalp since I was 17 and I still do regardless of the rest of my diet if I don't get a lot of vitamin A. Raw Kyle is the flaky stuff on your scalp yellow? If it is it's dried oil not dandruff. If there is any pain on the scalp it's not dryness it's inflammation.
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The scalp is tricky because of the various things going on, like a lot of hair growing from the skin. Are you able to shave your head? (The suns rays wont penetrate a thick covering of hair) By shaving your head you will be able to see exactly what is going on. I know not everyone is willing to do this. Maybe a very short hair cut, buzz cut. Short hair is best with scalp issues.
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Sometimes the flaky stuff is a little yellow, but a lot of the time it's mostly white. I don't really want to shave my head. I'm mostly interested in trying zero carb as an experiment not as a treatment. If it really bothered me I could use a shampoo. If zero carb does get rid of it, or greatly lessen it, that would say a lot to me about the efficacy of zero carb.
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I'm starting a zero carb experiment. I'm going to try bolting food down when I don't feel like eating. I tried it already with some iffy liver and it wasn't a bad experience. What do you guys think about that? Like today, for example, I'm going out to dinner with my girlfriends family. I was thinking of bolting down a good serving of fat before going out, and then getting a protein dish at the restaurant. Not entirely raw, and possibly trace carbs in a sauce or a few veggies, but acceptable in the terms of my experiment.
I'm going to try and take it for at least a few months before making any kind of judgment about whether it's working or not.
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I would read up on the problems that some ZCers encounter and how to avoid them before I would try a ZC test (I say that as someone who has tried ZC and is currently VLC). Richard Nikoley and Mark Sisson's blogs are good sources on this, and I have posted on it before too.
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Being zc or full of carbs doesn't really phase me in terms of energy... I never felt like it was something to adapt to. I know that is such contrast to anyone here. I like zc because my digestion is better that way. Hunger is something that is just there, but with carbs hunger is something so much more intense. Also eating zc I only want to eat once or twice a day, but with carbs I am full quickly, after an apple say, but hungry soon after and want to eat throughout the day. I think I sleep deeper too, and wake more refreshed... not sure though because I was always a deep sleeper and I woke kinda groggy, but I used to train 4+ hours a day.
As for tonight.. I think I'd call dinner an entire 'cheat', do the best from the menu, but get back on track tomorrow if zc is what you want to try. for me anyway, zc cooked and zc raw are entirely different!! Besides, there's too much hidden starch in spices and sauces, also cooked oils.. I just think can't be sure what we're eating from a restaurant.
good luck! look forward to reading what you decide.
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Being zc or full of carbs doesn't really phase me in terms of energy... I never felt like it was something to adapt to. I know that is such contrast to anyone here.
Same here, actually. The only adaptation I had was a brief period of sweet saliva that passed. Better to be fully informed before starting though, as others were not so lucky as us.
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Dinner didn't feel too good. Well today is going to be the first time in a while I'll be doing raw meat without any kind of condiment or any raw carbs. Like I said, it's an experiment, but my desire in it all would be more constant energy and mood levels.
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I'm starting a zero carb experiment. I'm going to try bolting food down when I don't feel like eating.
I've gone through the symptoms of zero carb transitioning before and can handle them I think, the one thing I don't know if I can take is how unappealing the food becomes. After a few days raw fat and organs become disgusting and muscle becomes barely tolerable.
You could try a tablespoon or two of raw honey so you appetite returns. Don't get too attached to the 'ZC' label. What you want is more health, energy and vitality, not to live up to some idea no matter what. A lot of what makes ZC a huge success is the elimination of fruit/plant fiber, mainly because of improved digestion and absorption of nutrients. Raw honey can help in the transition to full ZC. So if you run into serious trouble give it a try instead of going back to fruit.
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I finished my lunch today, it wasn't a lot of food but I didn't have the same problem as yesterday. My energy levels were good too, except being very tired when I first work up. Also, after a lunch of beef fat and muscle I felt a surge of energy that I thought would only come with carbs. Haven't had any significant negative stuff yet, except thoughts of non rpd zero carb foods. No head ache or anything, which I'm surprised about.
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I never got low carb flu or any adaptation problems with ZC, nor any digestion issues. I wonder if it is because I am fit (lifting, etc.)? I have no idea. And I went from vegetarian low carb almost directly to ZC, with no issues with meat or with dropping to zero (biologically) carbs. In fact, my gym performance, both cardio and lifting, IMPROVED. The difference in abdominal leanness and the freedom of mind are noticeable benefits. I only would wish my experience on others who try it. :)
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I never got low carb flu or any adaptation problems with ZC, nor any digestion issues. I wonder if it is because I am fit (lifting, etc.)? I have no idea. And I went from vegetarian low carb almost directly to ZC, with no issues with meat or with dropping to zero (biologically) carbs. In fact, my gym performance, both cardio and lifting, IMPROVED. The difference in abdominal leanness and the freedom of mind are noticeable benefits. I only would wish my experience on others who try it. :)
I seem to remember at the beginning you weren't eating much fat, right? Maybe you were turning protein into carbs and therefore didn't go through the adaptive pains? Are you eating a lot of fat now? Enough to supply your energy?
Still feeling good btw, about to go to sleep. Able to eat the food without any trouble, although tonight I ate bone marrow and that's my favorite fat source.
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I too thought that a gradual transition to ZC might be the reason I and others didn't experience any substantial problems during the transition, but when I did a poll on it here there was no correlation--cold turkey scored just as well.
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I seem to remember at the beginning you weren't eating much fat, right? Maybe you were turning protein into carbs and therefore didn't go through the adaptive pains? Are you eating a lot of fat now? Enough to supply your energy?
Still feeling good btw, about to go to sleep. Able to eat the food without any trouble, although tonight I ate bone marrow and that's my favorite fat source.
I am now eating 70-80% fat most days. I feel great on this and better than when I was about 60/40.
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Well I still feel fine. It's been about 4 days with nothing but raw animal foods. I was a little low on energy today but in a relaxed way, not a painful way.
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good luck.
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Today was my last day at my job so they almost forced me to go out to eat. I got a chopped steak that had some sauce on it (like gravy) and mushrooms. I also ate a few sweet potato fries, couldn't resist. Didn't feel as good after but didn't feel too bad. For dinner I'll just eat the muscle/fat that I brought for lunch.
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I'm feeling some flu like symptoms now. Friday night I didn't eat dinner, and I went to the gym Saturday morning and got beat up pretty bad. Then I ate a tiny amount as I wasn't hungry, and didn't eat again till much later. So now I'm very sore and do not feel well at all, and have no desire beyond knowing I need to eat to eat raw meat. I hope I feel better tomorrow as I'm starting a new job.
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Have fun tomorrow Kyle!
And hope you are feeling better after tonight's rest too.
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Thanks. First day at work was terrible, 12 hour day with flu like symptoms. I might even have the flu for all I know. Raw meat is still unappetizing, making me very mildly pre-nauseous. Today I woke up with my headache that I had for a couple days straight at least mostly gone, but it came back during the work day. Now it's still with me. So far this is a terrible experience, but I don't feel like giving up yet.
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I forgot to mention is great increase in my resting pulse.
The past few days went similarly, feeling almost better for the first half, then feeling bad again. Last night I caved and put some sauce from my girlfriends dinner on meat in order to stomach it.
Water began tasting sweet to me, and from what I can tell my breath has no odor, which are two things I read about here.
Today for lunch I put some drops of a tabasco type hot sauce on my meat to eat it. I might have to keep doing that because when I force it mild nausea occurs and bolting all my food is something I'm not at this point interested in trying. I have been bolting in order to supplement what I was able to chew and force down, but I like the pieces to be pretty small so I don't have the feeling they get temporarily stuck in my throat. Thus it's pretty time consuming, and also demoralizing.
Job is mildly better, probably due to feeling almost ok in the mornings. Tomorrow I'm going to a going away party at a bar from my last job and am planning on eating nothing there and drinking only maybe one or two simple drinks like vodka club.
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Try raw eggs, lots of them. The fresh living raw fat might just help get over this temporary discomfort.
I can tell from experience that fat in raw eggs digests 10 times faster than marrow, suet or white solid meat fat.
Best would be to have access to freshly killed animals and eat the brain, marrow or meat fat before it turns solid and goes stale.
I think there is magic in fresh living fat.
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I forgot to mention that in addition to being more thirty and drinking more than usual, my pee is more yellow than usual as well. What sickness I got as well is now firmly settled as an upper respiratory infection, which I haven't gotten since I think I started raw diets at least 4 years ago.
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It sounds a lot like what happened to me when I tried zero carb. I hope you get through it, but please don't push yourself too close to the line. It's not worth messing yourself up in pursuit of what you figure your diet should be...trust me. You can always back off, regroup and try a different tactic.
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I forgot to mention that in addition to being more thirty and drinking more than usual, my pee is more yellow than usual as well.
I've been raw ZC for over a month now and i drink sooo much water, it's insane. I hope that's a good thing, i literally drink 2x more water than i did when i was raw omnivore.
My urine is more yellow only when i eat liver.
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I've been raw ZC for over a month now and i drink sooo much water, it's insane. I hope that's a good thing, i literally drink 2x more water than i did when i was raw omnivore. ....
Yes, I think it's normal. I also drink more water than I used to, and enjoy water more, on raw VLC than I did on cooked omnivore. Wolves and Inuits drink an enormous amount of water. If you're concerned that you might be overhydrated I guess you could buy multistix to test the specific gravity of your urine.
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Another thing that's been going on is my stomach feels very empty but never grumbling and I'm not hungry. I have no hunger at all, and an aversion to eating anything rpd.
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Another thing that's been going on is my stomach feels very empty but never grumbling and I'm not hungry. I have no hunger at all, and an aversion to eating anything rpd.
I also never experience stomach grumbling and have very little hunger when I'm sticking to RPD. I usually eat twice a day, sometimes once or three times, depending on what's convenient. I haven't experienced that aversion, though.
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I have experienced this.
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I think I have bronchitis, which is very disappointing since I haven't gotten much in the way of communicable diseases since doing raw diets. I've tried raw honey to soothe my throat. Even cough drops. In short my experiment is over and I feel like I've taken a step back, in health rpd or both.
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Sorry to hear that. Get well soon.
Since it sounds like you handle carbs well, elderberry syrup might work for your throat.
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That sucks dude, hope you get well soon and regain your health.
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Hang in there man. Hope you get better soon.
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Thanks guys. It's strange that I got sick. I don't see myself doing this experiment again anytime soon.
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Just a question, but by "this experiment" do you mean zc? From what you've written it doesn't seem like you even really tried it, or I miss read?? Seems like you were ZC for a day or for a meal, but did this at a time when a lot was going on socially that you would be eating your best cooked/restaurant options as well.
I'm not trying to encourage or discourage anything, just that I'm not sure zc was a problem per se??
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I don't want to bang on about this, but I don't know who's read my posts...but I've come to believe that physical fitness is an alternative way to adapt to less carbs. Basically going low carb, and exercise both build mitochondria which are used for fatty acid metabolism.
So if it's not possible to get to a lower level of carbs by sticking it out, it may be possible by backing off and increasing your fitness level. In my experience it takes *a lot* of fitness to make a difference this way.
I'm also experimenting with a dried thyroid supp at the moment, as thyroid is apparently shown to increase mitochondria in rats.
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I don't want to bang on about this, but I don't know who's read my posts...but I've come to believe that physical fitness is an alternative way to adapt to less carbs. Basically going low carb, and exercise both build mitochondria which are used for fatty acid metabolism.
So if it's not possible to get to a lower level of carbs by sticking it out, it may be possible by backing off and increasing your fitness level. In my experience it takes *a lot* of fitness to make a difference this way.
I'm also experimenting with a dried thyroid supp at the moment, as thyroid is apparently shown to increase mitochondria in rats.
Does that mean I wouldn't do well on ZC or VLC because I'm not very active? (I'm always thinking about getting more active, but I know I'm not a gym person. -\ )
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Possibly, I don't know. This is all reasoning without scientific testing, but that's what we have to deal in. Maybe due to genetics or other factors you'd manage.
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Just a question, but by "this experiment" do you mean zc? From what you've written it doesn't seem like you even really tried it, or I miss read?? Seems like you were ZC for a day or for a meal, but did this at a time when a lot was going on socially that you would be eating your best cooked/restaurant options as well.
I'm not trying to encourage or discourage anything, just that I'm not sure zc was a problem per se??
I was raw zero carb for 2 weeks if you count day one being the day after eating the shrimp soup. Yes that was the experiment. It ended with me having flu like symptoms and eventually bronchitis like symptoms. I'm not suggesting causality, but the combination of starting a new job basically having the flu (and not being able to take a sick day or days) and having no appetite for the raw muscle/fat I was eating caused me to balk at continuing.
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gosh, i wonder why that happens to some people?? I don't feel I had any energy change for better or worse on zero carb, just smooth digestion and a calmer me.
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I seriously struggled in the first few weeks. Sounds like you were doing too much too soon especially starting a new job. Your a healthy, unless your looking for some sort of diet nirvana I would keep doing what you were doing.
What sort of new job did you go for? did you go for a higher level position? From waht you see in the news it's hard to get a job in the states at the moment.
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I seriously struggled in the first few weeks. Sounds like you were doing too much too soon especially starting a new job. Your a healthy, unless your looking for some sort of diet nirvana I would keep doing what you were doing.
I'm probably going to do just that. In fact I'm currently making a concerted effort to focus less on diet. I was always healthy to begin with, even on SAD; this added stress is probably a net wash in terms of health improvement.
What sort of new job did you go for? did you go for a higher level position? From waht you see in the news it's hard to get a job in the states at the moment.
It's the same type of job, quality control biology. The difference is that this is not contracting work like I was doing before. This is significant for me because I need to refinance my mortgage and you can't do that as a contractor. I work for a company called Innovation Foods that makes a probiotic beverage called "Good Belly."
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Hi Kyle, I've seen "Good Belly"!
Just wanted to say hi and thank you. I've been enjoying the archives - your journal, circa page 6... Because I can exactly relate to where you were long ago. I appreciate how well you expressed your feelings/situation at the time and it gives me hope that in time, I will grow and progress, too. Thank you. :)
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Thank you. :)
Thank you as well. It's very nice to think that my postings aren't wholly narcissistic and that someone else could get something out of them.
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Hey guys what's up? I've got some advice to ask, both nutritional/health and professional/career.
I'll start with the nutritional stuff since this is a diet forum. I feel like I may be experiencing a bit of what Yuri talks about in his journal. I don't think I'm digesting food well. My reason for thinking this is because a lot of the time I have an upset stomach, sometimes gas, and a lot of the time my bowel movements are different from each other. I've had the expectation that I could follow my raw paleo diet "most of the time" and get away with eating whatever some of the time, but maybe that isn't going to work out. But then when I eat on plan I don't feel quite right. This could be my body trying to zero in on what I'm giving it to work with, and being unable to get used to digesting any one thing. What keeps coming to mind is the fact that I was able to eat and feel good on just about anything before I started messing with "diets."
Also my energy isn't great, and I can't even remember whether it's worse than at other times in my life or if I've always been tired at certain times of the day. It seems like certain times of the day I feel tired no matter what, as if my body wants rest then. But it's strange times, the early afternoon, the morning, and not at all at night.
What I'm looking for is if anyone went through anything similar. I remember reading Yuri's journal and it seems like I have some of the same stuff. He says it's adrenal fatigue. It seems like my body doesn't want to work well. I can understand not getting peak performance out of it when I go off plan eating, but I would think a healthy body would get what it can from whatever you feed it. A lot of raw vegans define health in a way that if you eat something bad you'll get all sick, but I like to think that a healthy person could withstand something like that and perform adequate. I see people all the time that eat something crappy like a bagel for breakfast and seem to function very well. And I feel like I used to be like that.
I just bought an adrenal gland and I'm going to thaw it out and eat it and see if I notice a boost in energy or anything else good. I might also try some dried gland supplements, or perhaps HCl tablets and see if my digestion picks up with that. I want to zero in on what helps me, but sometimes I'm not patient enough to see an idea through.
As for professional stuff, I'm trying to decide what route to go in future schooling. Right now I'm working as a biologist and took the GRE to go to grad school. I was thinking either anthropology, some kind of biology, or paleontology/paleobiology. I could do some kind of research about paleolithic diet.
But since thinking that I've been a bit discouraged with emailing professors from schools near me, and don't see much research they're doing that's within my interests. And I've been considering another path, which is going to medical school. I was thinking endocrinology, and maybe I could do something with my patients where I give them the option of trying to stay off of or severely limit meds and treat stuff like diabetes and other glandular disorders with diet or natural supplements. Much like I am going to be experimenting on myself with now. I don't know how much leeway you have as a doctor to go off the orthodox path, but if I could do something like that I would want to. My role model in this path is Dr. Kurt Harris, whose website many people have read here. I could be like him, perhaps even team up with him and some other doctors to promote paleolithic nutrition, maybe write a book etc...
Anyway any advice or comments are welcome, thanks!
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what are you eating these days? maybe 'most of the time' is not enough anymore? or maybe it's what you're eating in the other time that just doesn't work for you anymore? i would think that the healthier we are, the quicker the body is tell us something isn't right.
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if you go for m.d. just prepared to agree to disagree.. you'll learn things the way they are taught so you can pass an exam, lol. just don't let yourself get frustrated with the conventions of the process, especially knowing your intentions. (that could be true for graduate work too, maybe to a lesser extent though.) if you work for a medical university, your job is to make the university money. if you go into your private practice you can do whatever you went. either way, don't forget that you'll need a residency after med school before you can go solo. if you choose this path, maybe there is an opportunity (internship?) with Dr. Harris that you can fit in during the summers of med school.. then you'll always have a reference/recommendation too.
if you choose phd - your job is to make the university money (i.e. get grants to fund research projects that you're doing, grants are given to those who publish), and you'll need to do a postdoc until you're independent in your own research. both will mean you are working on someone else's research idea (which you may find a great one! and great or not, you may still learn a ton to form your own ideas quickly and be ready to move on quickly.)
not trying to bias you here, they are all great choices, and it's great to have choices! my point is that they are both long hauls, and you just need to remember to enjoy the opportunity of the journey and focus on what you plan/can do for the world once you have these degrees.
hope this helps!, i am a little tired atm and hope i'm making sense, lol. but, i know well the academic world so feel free to ask anything if i can help.
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I'm thinking osteopathic school rather than going for an M.D.. The payscale looks to be about the same.
I know what you mean about agreeing to disagree, I had to do some of that even in biology undergrad. I had this talk with Lex before and he put it as becoming a wolf in sheep's clothing.
Another reason I'm leaning towards a medical degree over a PhD is that I believe the current and future economic positions is moving away from money in the area of academia and keeping money or putting more money into the area of medicine. Academia relies on funding from government grants (for the most part) and the US government is broke and resorting to all kinds of bizarre monetary policies just to pay it's bills. Academicians imo live high off the hog and don't produce enough to justify their incomes, eventually that will have to change. In other words I believe there's a bubble in academia and that research funding and professor/researcher pay scales are on their way down.
On the other hand the medical field funds itself by providing goods and services that people demand. Whether they are good or not people demand and purchase them, and it really isn't going anywhere but up from what I see. So I could do a bit of nutritional research by helping patients try and control their conditions (like diabetes) with diet while at the same time making good money, rather than scraping by trying to get funding for research grants as a PhD biologist or whatever.
The one HUGE drawback: money in the interim. As a PhD student you can get a stipend to live (barely) on, as a med student you have zero income and tons of debt awaits you when you're done. You make a lot more money and can probably pay it off quickly and be in a good economic situation shortly after finishing, but I don't know how I'm going to live in the mean time. I have to find out if you can get loans for living expenses in addition to medical school tuition.
Oh and thanks Ioanna, any info is a help.
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pharmaceutical companies pour big money into research.. it's how they design their next big drug. medical universities, where most doctors work, gain a ton of money from research.. it's really ridiculous how the whole thing works.
anyway, i think d.o. school would be great! you'll learn more than m.d.'s, but you still have to pass the same boards so a lot is the same too.
yeah, money is much different. some phd programs don't even give the stipend! but, yes, you can borrow what you need to live on plus tuition/books/etc. nothing different from undergrad, you'll survive cuz that's what we do... and you can eat your rpd too :) you don't have to start paying back your loan until you start working.
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I'm looking at an MCAT course. Things are pretty tight, if I want to start next Fall I have to take the January MCAT, as well as getting all my other application stuff together. MCAT courses are about $2000.
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From what I've been told those MCAT courses are quite helpful as sort of a forced study time and in general test-taking strategy (like when you don't know the answer, etc). If it's what you want, can you be ready for the January test?
Here's another thought... if you decide to go to med/d.o school, you can still do a post-doc/research stuff with a biology or other lab. Whereas the opposite, of course, is not true that one cannot do a medical residency with a PhD.
Ooooh, and another that I didn't realize until after I finished that I think would have influenced me otherwise... maybe consider your personality. In general, career options with an M.D. will give you more interaction with people while research will leave you largely in solitude. With M.D. you will have feedback on a daily basis as to your performance, with research months will go by before you know if an experiment is working.
Gosh, I do feel for you right now Kyle because I was at the same crossroad some time ago. I chose the academic route, and in all honestly I was second guessing myself for most of the way because I really didn't know what I wanted to do with an advanced degree or a medical degree.. I just knew I wanted to study them to the fullest and apply my knowledge is some good way. So I just kept moving with my best foot forward. What more can we do?
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Ya Ioanna that's the place I'm at. In addition I have these ideas of other projects I want to do with music and literature and I don't know where those fit in. Hobbies or a possible career? Would I have time for hobbies in med school? Would I regret not pursuing those at a certain point in my life? Would I regret not pursuing med school if I instead chose to work my current job and try and make a second career with art? These questions are really not answerable so I'll be doing guesswork about it all. I'm taking anyone's advice or suggestions that will give me them very seriously though.
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In addition to deleting spam from my journal I'll add that I'm swung back towards wanting to go to graduate school for a PhD. There's a school a little over an hour drive from me that I can do nutrition in, and I didn't consider it before because of the drive. But right now I'm making about an hour drive to work every day and it's ok. My GRE scores and GPA are above what they require, so I think I have a good chance. They have nutrition and then endocrinology, and I have to decide which one to go into. There's also some other schools to consider but I'm heavily leaning towards this one, Rutgers (New Brunswick) because they're the only school anywhere near me that has a PhD in nutrition.
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Seriously, you remind me so much of me!, only instead of music and literature I am heavily into theatre. I joked that I would apply to med school and Juilliard and let the application process decide my fate. Well, I did neither, I went to grad school instead, and constantly wondered if I would regret exploring the other two further. Today I can honestly say I am entirely happy with my decision, though I'm sure I'd find happiness in whichever I pursued. I am sure if I stayed with theatre I would be wondering today if I have what it takes to accomplish what I have so far academically.. and I'd doubt my own capabilities. Theatre is still a passion though, and I've worked for several (I move a lot) professional companies post grad school graduation. If I get to do something on/off Broadway I'll take a leave of absence. I guess, my idea is that in the moment you feel like you are choosing one thing over the other, but it's more like a shift in priorities and over time it can all balance out. You can do any (and every) thing that you want to! If it's a passion for you, you'll find the time or a way to make it happen.
Rutgers seems like a fun school.. it's huge!.. you'll have fun basketball games to attend!
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Thanks, that makes me feel a little better. I started emailing Rutgers faculty today, I found at least two that seem very interesting to me. They have little one sentence write ups about their research interests: Peter Gillies - Nutrigenomics and the relationships between nutrition and metabolic syndrome disorders
and
Peter Guarnaccia - Anthropology of foods and health
There's a lot of lipid metabolism research going on there too. I'm definitely interested in the biochemistry angle but want to be sure to not get into a situation where I'm 100% of the time in a lab running machines and pipetting.
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Update: pursuing application to Rutgers PhD program in nutrition. Going to Nicaragua to meet a friend and see his farm there in mid-December. I'm going to take a bunch of pemmican with me and try and only lightly sample the traditional cuisine there. To completely abstain would be out of the question for me, as although I am a health enthusiast I am also an ethnic foods lover. This trip is centered on my dream to own some productive land for subsistence farming one day. This friend I met at my last job, he is from Nicaragua and told me that he has a farm there, as well as a house in the city, and I was welcome to come and visit when he visits. Well I am certainly taking him up on that, whether he expected me to or not.
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cool man. I'm glad you settled on direction. Once you get it in and get accepted you'll have it further figured out if its the thing for you. The trip should be a great little (big) breather. Make sure you at least eat some kind of snake or spider and report back. cooked is acceptable :)
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Update: pursuing application to Rutgers PhD program in nutrition. Going to Nicaragua to meet a friend and see his farm there in mid-December. I'm going to take a bunch of pemmican with me and try and only lightly sample the traditional cuisine there. To completely abstain would be out of the question for me, as although I am a health enthusiast I am also an ethnic foods lover.
For sure, sample the traditional cuisine - even more than only lightly if you can handle it and like it. I am a huge ethnic foods lover as well and sometimes (like where you are likely going), it's so super fresh, even cooked can feel good/nourishing/alive (when one can handle it). Have fun! :)
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Thanks for the encouragement guys.
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Trip was great, although I didn't get to eat much of the food I brought and I was sick coming home. It was quick though, a fever and some stomach cramps and now I'm getting better.
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welcome home :)
glad you had a great trip, kyle! hope you got some of the diversity and clarity you may have been looking for. did you take kd's advice to eat a snake or spider? :P
when you're feeling better, i hope you'll tell more :)
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I didn't get a chance to eat much exotic stuff. I tried to find turtle eggs but failed. I did try a delicious bull testicle dish, and a good ox tongue dish as well.
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Just found out I'm accepted to a PhD program in nutrition at Rutgers University. I'm in the running for a fellowship but I hear it's competitive, so most likely I'll have to do a teaching assistanceship to make ends meet, which I'm not at all disappointed about.
I'm not sure what I'll be able to research at the get-go, but I see a lot of faculty there do lipid research, and I've been in contact with a guy who sent me a journal article about how different amounts of the salivary amylase gene copies becomes more concentrated amylase in saliva and then changes the speed at which different peoples saliva breaks down starch, which changes texture perception of food while eating. He's into taste and texture perception of food, and has offered for me to work in his lab. So at least I have that if I can't find anything more suited to me while I study. Once I'm done the program of course I can do whatever I want (and can get funding for).
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Congratulations, Kyle!!! 8)
You'll probably be required to do at least a couple of rotations I'm guessing. Once you get there, you'll become more acquainted with all the research going on, and then have your pick. My advice though.. pick a project/advisor that is well funded as top priority. Labs with comfortable money situation are lot smoother going. And lipid research is a very good place to be!!!, presently the 'cutting edge' for sciences.
When do you start?
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Thanks, I start in the Fall.
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congrats Kyle!
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For some reason academia makes me feel a little ill.
The politics the bullshit.... however if it's what you need to do, go for it.
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This is great news. I personally think there is alot of room in academia for meaningful research. Perhaps not immediately 'raw' nutrition or whatever, but certainly lots of related subjects. Having a foothold now in that world is probably the only way to take on further extensive research long term. If you can learn and make money/pay for school etc... can't beat that.
I'll probably be back in NY area next year. We should go to a football game or take on a keg rager or something.
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I'll probably be back in NY area next year. We should go to a football game or take on a keg rager or something.
Word up.
There are things I dislike about academia but in the end knowledge of paleolithic diet and other health related issues comes mostly from it. Even knowledge of what modern day primitive tribes do and eat comes mostly from people in academia finding out and writing about it.
If I can't do what I want in academia when I'm done with my PhD then I can maybe do a little research, write a book, and proceed to do expensive nutrition consultations and the like ;D
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Just met with what will probably be my faculty adviser. He just decided last week he wants to write a grant proposal to test this diet called "nutritarian" vs. the traditional care for very sick cardiac patients at UMDNJ.
My goal as I see it now is to do a good job with that and slowly introduce to him paleolithic and maybe raw diet ideas so that I can steer his next project, or my thesis project, towards something closer to what I believe in. Any ideas?
In particular he seems convinced studies like this haven't really been done yet, clinical at least, there have been statistical studies done on populations like the China thing.
If you guys could help me find old studies or anything that I could learn about to help steer this lab towards my ideas that would be much appreciated.
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Well, Pottenger's cats. The only catch is that that study was flawed as it concentrated on raw cows' milk, hardly a natural food for cats.
Also, there are masses of studies done on heat-created toxins like advanced glycation end products etc.
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Just met with what will probably be my faculty adviser. He just decided last week he wants to write a grant proposal to test this diet called "nutritarian" vs. the traditional care for very sick cardiac patients at UMDNJ.
My goal as I see it now is to do a good job with that and slowly introduce to him paleolithic and maybe raw diet ideas so that I can steer his next project, or my thesis project, towards something closer to what I believe in. Any ideas?
In particular he seems convinced studies like this haven't really been done yet, clinical at least, there have been statistical studies done on populations like the China thing.
If you guys could help me find old studies or anything that I could learn about to help steer this lab towards my ideas that would be much appreciated.
My experience with academia is that professors are pretty unresponsive to new ideas, they are typically the least creative thinkers out there. Maybe tenure has something to do with it. Most are stuck in their own ideology. The best you can hope for is a sympathetic advisor. I hope for your sake he is sympathetic and doesn't try to shoot down your ideas. Good luck with that.
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Well, Pottenger's cats. The only catch is that that study was flawed as it concentrated on raw cows' milk, hardly a natural food for cats.
Also, there are masses of studies done on heat-created toxins like advanced glycation end products etc.
One of Pottenger's studies involved feeding raw meat versus cooked meat to cats. Chapter 2 in the book covers this.
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One of Pottenger's studies involved feeding raw meat versus cooked meat to cats. Chapter 2 in the book covers this.
But they also always involved raw cows' milk as well. Not one compared only raw meat to cooked meat. Unless I've made an error?
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But they also always involved raw cows' milk as well. Not one compared only raw meat to cooked meat. Unless I've made an error?
The 2nd chapter deals with raw meat versus cooked meat. The conclusions of the studies, which make up chapters 4 through 7 are difficult to interpret, as they lump together raw meat and milk as "raw food." For example:
"Adult cats placed on a cooked meat or pasteurized milk diet begin to show unhealthy conditions in their mouths within three to six months." (page 22 under the heading Deficient Cats)
and
"Deficient cats on cooked meat and heat-processed milk reveal a decrease in the diameter of their bones while their long bones tend to increase in length. By the third generation, these bones are soft like sponge rubber." (page 31)
So there is some truth to what you are saying. The error Pottenger made is in lumping raw meat and raw milk together in places, as though they would have the same effect on development. I suppose there were similarities. In the text there is a distinction made as to where the conclusions are coming from.
I would think that if his original papers were available you could go through them and see which data apply to the raw meat feeding study versus the raw milk feeding and draw your own conclusions. In any case it is a fascinating study, what initially got me interested in raw food after I picked it up at a used book store and read it.
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this is for inspiration, maybe you'll get some ideas from it that you can apply to paleo and heart disease.. idk.. i'm just shocked someone took the time link brain tumor tissue to diet.
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/keto-case-study/msg65057/#msg65057
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Just met with what will probably be my faculty adviser. He just decided last week he wants to write a grant proposal to test this diet called "nutritarian" vs. the traditional care for very sick cardiac patients at UMDNJ.
My goal as I see it now is to do a good job with that and slowly introduce to him paleolithic and maybe raw diet ideas so that I can steer his next project, or my thesis project, towards something closer to what I believe in. Any ideas?
In particular he seems convinced studies like this haven't really been done yet, clinical at least, there have been statistical studies done on populations like the China thing.
If you guys could help me find old studies or anything that I could learn about to help steer this lab towards my ideas that would be much appreciated.
Here are some good recent studies.
http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/3/1/39
In this one, pigs fed conventional grain-based feed were compared to pigs fed a paleo diet (fruits, vegetables, beef, fish meal). Nothing was explicitly stated about cooking, so everything was probably fed raw, except for the fish meal, which is obviously processed.
That group also did a paleo diet study with humans:
http://staffanlindeberg.com/DiabetesStudy.html
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I doubt any professor would be willing to test a raw meat diet any time in the near future, but he might be open to "Paleo." [Warning: the diets in these studies aren't perfectly Paleo by the usual standards here, so if imperfection upsets you then I don't advise that you read them. I'm not claiming that the diets in these studies are perfect, nor that the studies themselves are perfect, I'm just sharing the existing research in response to Raw Kyle's request.]
A Paleolithic diet confers higher insulin sensitivity, lower C-reactive protein and lower blood pressure than a cereal-based diet in domestic pigs
Tommy Jönsson1*, Bo Ahrén1, Giovanni Pacini2, Frank Sundler3, Nils Wierup4, Stig Steen5, Trygve Sjöberg5, Martin Ugander6, Johan Frostegård7, Leif Göransson8 and Staffan Lindeberg1
Nutrition & Metabolism 2006, 3:39 doi:10.1186/1743-7075-3-39
http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/3/1/39
"This study in domestic pigs suggests that a Paleolithic diet conferred higher insulin sensitivity, lower C-reactive protein and lower blood pressure when compared to a cereal based diet."
A Palaeolithic diet improves glucose tolerance more than a Mediterranean-like diet in individuals with ischaemic heart disease.
Diabetologia. 2007 Sep;50(9):1795-807. Epub 2007 Jun 22.
Lindeberg S, Jönsson T, Granfeldt Y, Borgstrand E, Soffman J, Sjöström K, Ahrén B.
Department of Medicine, Hs 32, University of Lund, SE-221 85, Lund, Sweden. staffan.lindeberg@med.lu.se
"Twenty-nine patients with ischaemic heart disease plus either glucose intolerance or type 2 diabetes were randomised to receive (1) a Palaeolithic ('Old Stone Age') diet ... or (2) a Consensus (Mediterranean-like) diet...."
"CONCLUSIONS/INTERPRETATION: A Palaeolithic diet may improve glucose tolerance independently of decreased waist circumference."
"Beneficial effects of a Paleolithic diet on cardiovascular risk factors in type 2 diabetes: a randomized cross-over pilot study," Staffan Lindeberg, PhD et al, Cardiovasc Diabetol. 2009 Jul 16;8:35.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19604407, http://www.cardiab.com/content/8/1/35
"The study was a randomized, cross-over, dietary intervention study in 13 patients with type 2 diabetes without insulin treatment, 3 women and 10 men, recruited from three primary health care units in the Lund area in Sweden. ....
Conclusion: Over a 3-month study period, a Paleolithic diet improved glycemic control and several cardiovascular risk factors compared to a Diabetes diet in patients with type 2 diabetes."
Metabolic and physiologic improvements from consuming a Paleolithic, hunter-gatherer type diet
L A Frassetto, M Schloetter, M Mietus-Synder, R C Morris & A Sebastian
Abstract
European Journal of Clinical Nutrition 63, 947-955 (1 August 2009) | doi:10.1038/ejcn.2009.4
http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v63/n8/full/ejcn20094a.html
"Methods: We performed an outpatient, metabolically controlled study, in nine nonobese sedentary healthy volunteers, ensuring no weight loss by daily weight. ....
Conclusions: Even short-term consumption of a paleolithic type diet improves BP and glucose tolerance, decreases insulin secretion, increases insulin sensitivity and improves lipid profiles without weight loss in healthy sedentary humans."
Effects of a short-term intervention with a paleolithic diet in healthy volunteers
M Österdahl, T Kocturk, A Koochek and P E Wändell
European Journal of Clinical Nutrition 62, 682-685 (1 May 2008) | doi:10.1038/sj.ejcn.1602790
http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v62/n5/full/1602790a.html
This study was criticized by Stephan Guyenet as having the following problems:
"#1 is the lack of a control group as a means for comparison. Ouch. #2 is the small study size [14] and resulting lack of statistical power."
Recreating the caveman diet
17 September 2010 Last updated at 08:29 ET
By Philippa Roxby, Health reporter, BBC News
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-11075437
Unilever Study of Hunter Gatherer-Type Diet. "Research will focus on how the food eaten by hunter-gatherers could enhance modern day nutrition."
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Thanks guys, those are what I'm looking for.
This is going to be a slow process. I think this professor is impressed with me and wants to do alternative research. I might have to wait until I finish my degree to do things I truly believe in. Success in what he is proposing will give me more options and ability to do more. He has hinted at doing something along the lines of what I'm interested in in the future already.
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While it is laudable to focus on studies about healthy raw or palaeo foods and the like, I would add a caveat:- plenty of scientists' careers have been ruined solely because they focused on subjects which were frowned upon by the establishment. I can't imagine, for example, that doctors who promote raw diets would be held in high esteem by the pharmaceutical industry, for example - similiarly, vets promoting a raw diet would encounter difficulties with colleagues in the pay of the pet-food-industry etc. Sure, there are the exceptions like Dr Mercola, but even he sells out to some extent.
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sounds like you're in a great place, kyle :)
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plenty of scientists' careers have been ruined solely because they focused on subjects which were frowned upon by the establishment. I can't imagine, for example, that doctors who promote raw diets would be held in high esteem by the pharmaceutical industry, for example - similiarly, vets promoting a raw diet would encounter difficulties with colleagues in the pay of the pet-food-industry etc
I intend on doing just such research so I will find out if there is such a conspiracy going on.
One interesting things Dr. Breslin (my probable advisor) said is that a guy who came up with something called the Fireman's Diet or something like that was supposedly threatened by a group of cardiologists saying they would go out of business by that diet. I don't know if that's true or if that diet really would do that much, but my point is that he seems to accept that there are at least suggestions of forces against such research.
Ionnna, thanks!
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I intend on doing just such research so I will find out if there is such a conspiracy going on.
One interesting things Dr. Breslin (my probable advisor) said is that a guy who came up with something called the Fireman's Diet or something like that was supposedly threatened by a group of cardiologists saying they would go out of business by that diet. I don't know if that's true or if that diet really would do that much, but my point is that he seems to accept that there are at least suggestions of forces against such research.
Ionnna, thanks!
I don't think there is any overt conspiracy, as such. In the case of vets, for example, veterinary courses at university and onwards are, apparently, largely funded by the pet-food industry, with much of the coursework therefore being weighted in favour , such as nutrition lessons focusing primarily on processed pet foods/grains etc. - hardly surprisingly, therefore, most vets get "trained" to ignore other viewpoints that would work better. Similiarly, doctors don't do much studying of nutrition(Aajonus says it's something like 4 to 6! hours during the course of their entire training!) yet health agencies actually once tried to ban anybody without a medical degree from working as a nutritionist in California.
Also, I have a doctor uncle who works for the UK government, and, unsurprisingly, follows standard doctrine on every possible aspect of medicine, so frowns on homeopathy/herbal medicine etc., smiles patronisingly if I ever mention my raw diet etc. - I can't blame him having no creative intelligence as, since he is not a private doctor, he could be vulnerable to being fired if he had an original thought and, say, promoted homeopathic remedies. Some hardline fundamentalists among doctors/scientists have openly criticised such advocates of alternative medicine in public...
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Just met with what will probably be my faculty adviser. He just decided last week he wants to write a grant proposal to test this diet called "nutritarian" vs. the traditional care for very sick cardiac patients at UMDNJ.
My goal as I see it now is to do a good job with that and slowly introduce to him paleolithic and maybe raw diet ideas so that I can steer his next project, or my thesis project, towards something closer to what I believe in. Any ideas?
In particular he seems convinced studies like this haven't really been done yet, clinical at least, there have been statistical studies done on populations like the China thing.
If you guys could help me find old studies or anything that I could learn about to help steer this lab towards my ideas that would be much appreciated.
I live in the area. I'll gladly be a test subject, if your ideas come to fruition!
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I live in the area. I'll gladly be a test subject, if your ideas come to fruition!
Thanks for the offer!
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It's looking like I'm going to do rotations in different faculty labs in the Fall, Winter, Spring or all three. One faculty member already likes an idea of mine for a vitamin D study (that's what she does) about the difference in efficacy of vitamin D from supplements and from food. I'm trying to design it so that there are regular D2 and D3 pills being given, the spray that Mercola sells (seems like the best D supplement out there) and then some food with a measurable amount of D. The food or the Mercola supp will inevitably win in looking at blood serum levels because the food has fat in it to help it absorb, and the Mercola supp doesn't have to be digested as it's sprayed under the tongue and goes into the blood vessels there.
If she likes that and all goes well I might have something published by the end of the year or maybe next year about Vitamin D. There's also a faculty member that does a lot of Vitamin A research with a mouse lab that wants me for rotation, and a guy that does lipid enzyme research that works mostly with microbes and cells. I've also got the first faculty member I met Dr. Breslin, I almost joined his lab right away but decided to do rotations, so I'll try his lab out. And lastly there's a faculty member I wasn't able to meet but some students after hearing my interests (paleo diet etc) said I should meet him. One of his research interests was environmental toxins effecting food absorption or something like that. He has some other stuff going on that is pretty close to what I'm interested in.
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sounds great, kyle! keep us updated on your findings!!
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I've been having a stubborn skin infection. Started off looking like ringworm which I've gotten a couple of times from bjj but hasn't gone away. I had something on my hand in early December, it started going away, then in mid-December I went to Nicaragua for a week and it came back full force and I got something similar to it on other spots. They stayed for months, but by the time I went to a doctor about it they were almost completely faded. The hyper-pigmentation never went away though. Just this weekend I got those spots in other places again, and it looks like the thing on my hand might be starting up again. I tried an over the counter tolnaftate (anti-fungal) to no avail and the thing that I think eventually faded away the last batch was putting nail polish on them (definitely not ideal). So now here I am again, with faded remains of the earlier spots and new ones appearing, having no idea why this is happening. I've been pretty good about low carb recently, better than usual actually, and have been getting a good amount of fat. I haven't been doing anything particular for skin care, and I should be getting more fresh air on my skin, but it's cold here and I don't know if I could reasonably do that. I also use very little soap when showering, I only really soap my arm pits and crotch and sometimes feet cause that's the only spots that really sweat and eventually smell.
Ideas or suggestions?
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I can only suggest giving up soap completely.
Also, when you say 'good' about low carb...do you mean sometimes you go off the wagon?...because I've found if I've been low carb, then have a lot it's thrown my system right out.
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I think regular tanning bed sessions will kill of fungal infections like ring worm. If you try twice a week for a month or so you should see improvement.
I used to get ring worms around the time I got real sick, I think such infections could indicate overall lowered immunity, whatever the cause, sun bathing should boost the immune system and promote healthy skin overall. Especially after not getting much sun through the winter months.
I will also cover myself with coconut oil after each session , I think the oil protects the skin , plus it locks in the fat soluble vitamin D that's generated on the skins surface. Its also important to not let your skin get dry when you have fungal infections, and too much bathing with soap and water can strip the skin of its immunity factors and natural protective oils and leave you open to such infections.
Kill the fungus with UV rays, and then smother it out the rest of the way with a clean oil,and your ring worm should go away.
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This sounds weird, but has anyone thought about licking their skin, like other mammals?
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This sounds weird, but has anyone thought about licking their skin, like other mammals?
Do they do that when infected with ringworm and such?
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Ah no sorry Kyle. I was responding to the vitamin D point. Apparently mammals lick their fur to get vit D. Sabertooth seemed to imply it was on the surface of human skin which I don't know about.
Who knows though? Some people say spit has healing properties.
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The photosynthesis of vitamin D evolved over 750 million years ago; the phytoplankton coccolithophor Emeliani huxleii is an early example. Vitamin D played a critical role in the maintenance of a calcified skeleton in vertebrates as they left their calcium-rich ocean environment for land over 350 million years ago.
Vitamin D can only be synthesized via a photochemical process so early vertebrates that ventured onto land either had to ingest foods that contained vitamin D or had to be exposed to sunlight to photosynthesize vitamin D in their skin to satisfy their body's vitamin D requirement.[12]
[edit] Production in the skin
In the epidermal strata of the skin, production is greatest in the stratum basale (colored red in the illustration) and stratum spinosum (colored light brown).
Vitamin D3 is made in the skin when 7-dehydrocholesterol reacts with ultraviolet light (UVB) at wavelengths between 270 and 300 nm, with peak synthesis occurring between 295 and 297 nm.[13] These wavelengths are present in sunlight when the UV index is greater than three and also in the light emitted by the UV lamps in tanning beds. Tanning lamps produce ultraviolet primarily in the UVA spectrum, but typically produce 4% to 10% of the total UV emissions as UVB. At this solar elevation, which occurs daily within the tropics, daily during the spring and summer seasons in temperate regions, and almost never within the arctic circles, vitamin D3 can be made in the skin. Depending on the intensity of UVB rays and the minutes of exposure, an equilibrium can develop in the skin, and vitamin D degrades as fast as it is generated.[14]
The skin consists of two primary layers: the inner layer called the dermis, composed largely of connective tissue, and the outer, thinner epidermis. Thick epidermis in the soles and palms consists of five strata; from outer to inner they are: the stratum corneum, stratum lucidum, stratum granulosum, stratum spinosum, and stratum basale. Vitamin D is produced in the two innermost strata, the stratum basale and stratum spinosum.
In some animals, the presence of fur or feathers blocks the UV rays from reaching the skin. In birds and fur-bearing mammals, vitamin D is generated from the oily secretions of the skin deposited onto the fur and obtained orally during grooming.[19]
In 1923, it was established that when 7-dehydrocholesterol is irradiated with light, a form of a fat-soluble vitamin is produced. Alfred Fabian Hess showed "light equals vitamin D."[20] Adolf Windaus, at the University of Göttingen in Germany, received the Nobel Prize in Chemistry in 1928, for his work on the constitution of sterols and their connection with vitamins.[21] In the 1930s he clarified further the chemical structure of vitamin D.[citation needed]
Vitamin D is formed just under the surface of the skin, if its exposed to UV rays, but there are co factors involved to insure optimal production and absorption. The oil on the surface of the skin along with bacteria, kind of form a protective layer of cholesterol rich co factors that are necessary for optimal vitamin D production. If you constantly wash away the layer of protective oil and bacteria on the surface of the skin then whatever vitamin D that does form just under the surface will be reduced, or leach out and not be fully adsorbed.
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I'm sure I'm vitamin D deficient but I don't think that is the sole or primary cause of these skin problems, as they have just started and I haven't made an effort to secure my vitamin D status at all my entire life.
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Overdue update: started school, things going ok, a bit overwhelmed with classes+teaching+lab work but I'm getting used to it
I have a faculty member talking about doing a raw meat study but it's actually about getting less energy from the meat raw in an effort to control weight. Seems misguided from my perspective but still interesting. The younger people (mostly PhD candidates vs. long term faculty) are more open to my ideas. I wish I had the journal articles and critiques of some articles available at all times to aid me in my discussions as most of the faculty pretty much buy into the "vegetarian is healthier" kind of studies results. I'm pretty certain they didn't go back and look into the raw data like Denise Minger did on the China Study, and at this point I don't have the time to really compile all of that.
There is one faculty member who although he doesn't believe what I'm talking about yet seems to have taken a liking to me personally and might be willing to bring me into his lab and fund some of my research. So for the next few months I'm going to be trying to get good grades, learn lab techniques (in rotations) and present some clear testable hypotheses that this guy would be willing to do.
I was thinking of doing something with giving people fructose vs. glucose and measuring weight and blood outcomes. Giving people a certain amount of animal fat (tallow maybe) vs. equi-caloric something else. I'd like to attack the "animal fat causes heart disease" hypothesis head on if I could.
Suggestions?
P.S. anyone remember hearing something about Eskimos dying of stroke because of too high omega 3 levels from too much fish in their diet? If I could get some medical records showing that they are having stroke because of bleeding and not because of clotting I could write a review of that.
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Good to hear you're doing something you're interested in.
I've slowly managed to get into a health related occupation. I was working in the environmental field however lost passion. Now I'm working in occupational health.
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kyle, you are going to do these studies with human subjects??
re heart disease... it would be interesting if you did a side-by-side comparison with the animal fat and a plant fat source(s). peanut oil, for example, is used to induce atherosclerosis in rats for study... not animal fat :)
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kyle, you are going to do these studies with human subjects??
The first studies are going to be small, simple and short term and yes probably on humans. The cooked vs. raw meat study starts tomorrow, on humans.
What do you think would happen in a side by side comparison with fats? Do you think the fact that the subjects are eating "junk" and are only being supplemented with this extra fat would mess up the results?
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The trouble with a short-term raw-meat study is that it is, usually, going to show negative effects for those eating raw-meat. The reason is that many people build up huge amounts of toxins after eating cooked foods for decades, so that they often have a detox for some days/weeks after switching suddenly from cooked to raw. My own experience was that I got constant diarrhea for 2 to 3 days solid, forcing me to go to the toilet every 15-30 minutes. If I had stopped at that point, out of timidity, I would never have gotten the health-improvements I experienced some months later.
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I wouldn't be so fast to state "why" there may be a difference between short and long term performance. I do agree that long term diet studies are more informative if you're talking about health intervention studies. If you're just looking at calories absorbed though it seems pretty straight forward.
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I wouldn't be so fast to state "why" there may be a difference between short and long term performance. I do agree that long term diet studies are more informative if you're talking about health intervention studies. If you're just looking at calories absorbed though it seems pretty straight forward.
Not necessarily. I think it takes time for the body to adjust re switching suddenly to a mostly raw or mostly cooked diet. For example, I am pretty sure, given my own experience, that the body needs to produce much less stomach acid when eating mostly raw foods. I also noticed that, after going mostly raw, I found it more difficult to swallow very dry pastry like croissants usually needing to gulp some water shortly afterwards to wash them down, yet in my cooked food days I could swallow any number of them with ease. I suspect(?) that this is because cooked diets encourage the creation of more mucus etc. in the throat.
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I suspect(?) that this is because cooked diets encourage the creation of more mucus etc. in the throat.
That might be something to look into. Kind of impossible though to get funding for that and volunteers that wouldn't cheat.
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That might be something to look into. Kind of impossible though to get funding for that and volunteers that wouldn't cheat.
True. Plus, I seriously doubt that a raw-meat-consumption trial would be allowed to last very long, given irrational fears re bacteria etc.
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True. Plus, I seriously doubt that a raw-meat-consumption trial would be allowed to last very long, given irrational fears re bacteria etc.
If you did it in a clinical setting you could probably get away with keeping it going as long as the subjects were monitored and showed to not have pathogenic bacteria problems. However, this would be expensive and therefore unlikely to happen.
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However, this would be expensive and therefore unlikely to happen.
You got that right, IMO. My guess is, around the time that medical science has cured all the major aging diseases (heart disease, cancer, etc.), we'll see studies about RAF. And then, it won't even matter.
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Wouldn't it be more economical to just study indigenous tribes of raw meat eaters like the Eskimos or the Siberian reindeer herders.
Take a group like that and keep statistics on disease rate and even yearly blood test and within one generation of relatively expensive research you could scientifically prove the safety and health benefits of a raw meat based diet.
There already is conclusive scientifically valid data supporting Raw Animal Food diets, and its been completely ignored by the medical establishment, so I doubt that even if a credible study is done that the results would be integrated into the corrupt Establishments system of disease management.
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Those Arctic tribes do eat some cooked meat(half of diet?), albeit boiled meats, so it would mean a lot less than if someone like Lex enrolled in such a study.
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I've had a persistent weak ache around my navel for over a week now. I can eat and drink fine and it doesn't hurt when I cough. I don't feel anything strange in the area, however when I move or twist in certain positions is when I feel it. This is unusual for me and has me a bit worried. Anyone ever have a parasite?
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Well, I did. I suggest you look in your stools to see if there's anything different there.
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Well, I did. I suggest you look in your stools to see if there's anything different there.
False alarm, it went away. I went to a doctor who said he thought it was skeleto/muscular. I was thinking it was an ulcer for a bit. Glad to be back to normal. If I ended up with a parasite I'd be eating a lot of crow over it after all the years of assuring people it's safe to eat raw meat.
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If I ended up with a parasite I'd be eating a lot of crow over it after all the years of assuring people it's safe to eat raw meat.
I suppose this remark was aimed at me. The only thing is that my one and only tapeworm experience only involved a minor issue in the beginning, but turned out to be harmless in the end. This coincides with other scientific data showing that tapeworms are generally harmless. So, I feel justified in reassuring people that parasites are harmless and can be gotten rid of with ease with the help of certain drugs, anyway.
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For example, I am pretty sure, given my own experience, that the body needs to produce much less stomach acid when eating mostly raw foods.
I'm not so sure. Stomach acid is necessary to denature protein. Cooking already denatures protein, so that effectively less stomach acid is needed?
I mean the stomach essentially is like an oven, except it breaks food down chemically, not by heat. I'm not a chemist, but logically at least equally or likely more acid would be needed for raw food.
edit: found a nice article which may help (it helped me) understand: http://ecologos.org/denature.htm (http://ecologos.org/denature.htm)
The conclusion is that high heat results in structures that are harder to break down, so in this case more acid and longer stay in the stomach may be necessary. Heating to 60-70C though, just enough to denature most protein, would lead to needing less acid and easier digestion, in my opinion.
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The problem is that denaturing via cooking is not the same kind of denaturing caused by stomach-acid or even the denaturing caused by marinating in lemon juice. It's also been pointed out that cooking alters the structure of the proteins etc. in foods, making them more difficult to be dealt with by the body's enzymes.
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I'm fairly certain that some vitamins can be damaged by prolonged high heat that wouldn't be from stomach acid but protein denaturing I don't quite see the difference. Ultimately they're all broken down to amino acids, anything larger than tripeptide cannot cross the intestinal border and even they are broken down into individual amino acids in the enterocytes. Seems to me like the only way to mess it up would be to burn it enough to break down individual amino acids, I don't think most cooking methods can do that kind of chemistry.
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I'm fairly certain that some vitamins can be damaged by prolonged high heat that wouldn't be from stomach acid but protein denaturing I don't quite see the difference. Ultimately they're all broken down to amino acids, anything larger than tripeptide cannot cross the intestinal border and even they are broken down into individual amino acids in the enterocytes. Seems to me like the only way to mess it up would be to burn it enough to break down individual amino acids, I don't think most cooking methods can do that kind of chemistry.
Thorough chewing is pretty effective too. Eating softer body parts and chewing thoroughly is pretty helpful, I think. Letting meat become a little bit high also works well, and gives you the added benefit of useful bacteria.
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I suppose this remark was aimed at me. The only thing is that my one and only tapeworm experience only involved a minor issue in the beginning, but turned out to be harmless in the end.
Yes, that's how I remember it. What was the worst of the symptoms you experienced? Paul Jaminet is warning people to cook their foods thoroughly (http://perfecthealthdiet.com/?p=5650 (http://perfecthealthdiet.com/?p=5650)), including even bone marrow, so I thought I'd point out that no one here has reported any serious repercussions from raw Paleo, Primal or Instincto.
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I just had a pain in the bladder so it hurt quite a bit when I urinated. This stopped after 2 days or so, then I started getting those tapeworm segments in my stools. But that part was all harmless, just being somewhat unaesthetic. Tapeworms are almost always harmless, according to reports.
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Guess who got a speaking spot at this Summer's Ancestral Health Symposium? This guy.
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Guess who got a speaking spot at this Summer's Ancestral Health Symposium? This guy.
Congrats. Talk us up. ROFL