Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: technosmith on October 03, 2010, 08:40:55 pm
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Hello to the lovely members of this forum,
How do people get on as regards constipation? (Especially those on zero-carb diets!)
I have been struggling of late, and I guess it is of no surprise, with my increased protein intake (I normally on average have 3 meals a day, with a protein portion approximately 150g-ish in weight with each, although this is sometimes quite a fatty portion/ sometimes it is fairly lean like an organ meat).
My protein is normally in the form of red meats, liver, lamb, beef, and so also I believe the large quantities of iron can also have an impact in this area. I had liver four times last week.
I still eat some starches (Raw carrot), but no fruits. And I eat plenty of fat, although I am currently trying to eat even more.
Just wondered how people get on with this, especially on an all animal based diet.
Thanks
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Have a look here! (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/cassia-fistula-why-when-how-much/)
Cheers
Francois
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My own experiences re raw, zero carb showed me that I ended up producing far fewer(and smaller) stools than when I ate some raw plant foods as well. This was quite normal as raw animal foods are more completely digested. On the other hand, 2 RZCers have mentioned having issues with constipation at times.
My suggestion:- stick to 1 large meal a day., not 3 meals a day.
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Hi Tyler,
Do you recommend one large meal a day, even when adrenally fatigued?
What about blood sugar control?
Thanks for the advice.
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Hi Tyler,
Do you recommend one large meal a day, even when adrenally fatigued?
What about blood sugar control?
Thanks for the advice.
Well, it's usually recommmended for adrenal fatigue sufferers to keep on eating. However, that did not work for me at all. I found, like many RVAFers, that healing proceeded much faster during times when I wasn't constantly digesting foods, so I believe digestion takes up a lot of the body's resources.
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My experience mirrors Tyler’s. Fecal bulk on a fat/protein based diet is about 1/3 that of a carb based diet. Our elimination systems have been stretched and expanded through our lifetimes of eating a carb based diet to the point where it takes a good bit of bulk before a bowel movement is triggered. If we switch to a low bulk diet, it can take several days of storing up fecal material until the threshold is reached to trigger a movement. This isn’t constipation as usually there is little or no discomfort (only worry that you haven’t gone in a while) and elimination, when it does occur, is not difficult.
There may be a bit of true constipation for the first couple of weeks of transition and this is caused by the massive dying off of the old intestinal flora that flourished on carbs and is slowly replaced by a much smaller colony of bacteria that handle the digestive byproducts of a meat based diet. It has been shown that 80% of the fecal bulk in a carb based diet is bacteria. These are very small critters that can pack together tightly and form a solid mass that is hard to move. This is why fiber is recommended on a carb diet. The fiber reduces the packing effect and keeps the mass somewhat pliable. When you transition to a meat based diet you aren’t supplying any fiber but bacteria load is still there from the old carb diet. As they die off they may form a solid mass and constipation results. Once you get past this (a few weeks at most) you’ll find elimination very easy though probably much less frequent – especially in the beginning.
As you continue on a low carb protocol where much less bulk is supplied to the colon, the colon will shrink in size to better accommodate the smaller load and bowel movements will be triggered more and more frequently, but be much smaller in size. In my case, when I stared this adventure 5 years ago or so, I was having a BM every 3 or 4 days and they were about the volume of what they were when I was eating carbs. Today, after five years, I usually have BM every day but it is very small, maybe a couple of pieces about the size of your thumb. Movements are much easier and far faster than when I was a carb eater.
I’ve also had a colonoscopy recently and was told by the doctor performing the procedure that he has seldom seen a colon in such good shape in a person my age (I’ll be 60 in Jan). Had he not seen me himself, and just had the pictures of my colon to look at, he would have guessed they were from a person in their 20’s or early 30’s. The colon was firm, smooth, and had great muscle tone. There were no signs of polyps or any other abnormality. I was told not to bother to repeat the procedure, as it was clear that I wouldn’t be dying for colon cancer anytime soon.
Lex
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Wow that's really interesting stuff.
Obviously, having struggled to pass a large fecal mass over the last day or so has really put me off consuming the amount of protein I had been. However it has definitely not put me off the raw paleo diet in general.
So Lex, is your diet completely zero carb raw paleo?
Do you eat only one large meal a day by the way?
And Tyler, how big is this one meal of yours? 2000-3000Kcal?
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I am having bowel movements every 3-4 days, but they are actually unpleasant. It is not constipation, but the initial movement is fine, then there are 2-3 movements over a 15-20 minute period, each one smaller and more unpleasant than the last. I hope you are right that this will normalize in time. When I was eating mostly raw plant food, my bowel movements were big and daily, but fast and effortless. I miss that.
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So Lex, is your diet completely zero carb raw paleo?
Do you eat only one large meal a day by the way?
If you will read my journal you'll see exactly what I eat, but the answer to your questions are:
1. Yes, I'm completely ZC and have been for about 5 years. The only thing I've varied is the ratio of fat to protein.
2. I only eat one meal per day and I've done this for almost the entire time I've been ZC as well. I eat between 2,000 and 2,600 calories per day. My meal is just meat, fat, and water. Part of the meat I eat is Slankers Pet Food which contains ground organs and other offal. This is mixed with regular grass fed ground beef and either ground raw suet or rendered suet to bring the fat content up to between 75% and 85% of calories from fat.
Based on your comment of large fecal mass, I'd guess you are in the first stages of transition and probably still eating a good bit of carbs - most likely those that have only small amounts of fiber but lots of starch to still support large colonies of intestinal bacteria.
I am having bowel movements every 3-4 days, but they are actually unpleasant. It is not constipation, but the initial movement is fine, then there are 2-3 movements over a 15-20 minute period, each one smaller and more unpleasant than the last. I hope you are right that this will normalize in time. When I was eating mostly raw plant food, my bowel movements were big and daily, but fast and effortless. I miss that.
Yup the conversion from raw plant food (especially raw starches) which isn’t digested well and therefore passes through quickly, can take several months. I think it was almost a year before I’d say that I was what I’d call ‘regular’. Also, assuming you are eating mostly meat and fat, the fat content of your food will make a big difference. Less fat will make more firm and well formed stools where very high fat intake will make soft and pasty stools.
Lex
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And Tyler, how big is this one meal of yours? 2000-3000Kcal?
it all depends. If I don't feel like eating one day, it's 0. Otheriwse, I usually eat c. 1 kg a day of raw meat. No idea re calorie-counting.
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Thanks guys for your advice. Appreciated.
Seriously interesting stuff!
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On the other hand, 2 RZCers have mentioned having issues with constipation at times.
I'm a VLCer with constipation, though my constipation has been lifelong, so it long preceded my period of ZC and my current VLC diet. ZC/VLC actually got rid of most of my IBS-C with D symptoms that used to accompany the constipation. Now I have what appears to be just plain chronic constipation with little or no IBS.
Strangely enough, my experience was almost the opposite of Lex's and Tyler's. After a couple of weeks of ZC my constipation greatly diminished and almost disappeared. Then it gradually came back again over the next couple of weeks after that. I eventually became about as constipated as I had been before, except with the difference of the gradual disappearance of IBS symptoms (which I'll spare people of the details, since some were rather gross).
Today, after five years, I usually have BM every day but it is very small, maybe a couple of pieces about the size of your thumb.
Interesting. DelFuego and Charles Washington reported similar phenomena, but Tyler dismissed it as nonsense. Maybe TD will believe it now that one of our own is talking about it in some detail. As I've mentioned in the past, my own fecal volume decreased too, though not yet as much as yours, Lex, as I haven't been doing VLC for nearly as long as you have been doing ZC.
The colon was firm, smooth, and had great muscle tone. There were no signs of polyps or any other abnormality. I was told not to bother to repeat the procedure, as it was clear that I wouldn’t be dying for colon cancer anytime soon.
Lex
Yes, I used to have a flaccid colon with very little signal to go any more and an inguinal hernia. I had to rely on memory to go, rather than natural signals. The muscle tone in both the colon and inguinal canal wall has since greatly improved. ZC and VLC have been a godsend for me in this area. Simply miraculous! I had never heard of this sort of improvement before and none of my physicians told me about it or that dietary change could help with it.
One of the few things that has helped my constipation other than VLC is trying to go at least once a day whether I get the urge or not. I know, I know, nearly everyone says that if you're going every day or two you can't possibly be constipated, but my stools tend to be dry and hard and like #'s 1-3 on the Bristol Stool scale no matter how frequently I go, and it quickly gets much worse if I wait more than a day. Plus, I usually cannot achieve complete evacuation on any given day, because I usually only manage to evacuate the stool that's near the exit point. If I don't manage to go every day, my feces quickly become very dry and compacted and difficult to move. The standard advice to eat plenty of plant foods and fiber never helped much and only succeeded in giving me mineral deficiencies, and the advice to eat more whole grains had particularly harmful effects on me.
In addition to going every day the following advice to eat a big fatty meal in the morning, to trigger the gastrocolic reflex, with the fat greasing the way, helps me somewhat:
"If you suffer from constipation predominant IBS (IBS-C), you may be able to encourage a bowel movements, particularly in the morning, by eating a large meal with some fat content." ibs.about.com/od/glossary/g/gastrocolic.htm
"In periods between meals, the colon is generally quiescent. Following a meal, colonic motility increases significantly, due to signals propagated through the enteric nervous system - the so called gastrocolic and duodenocolic reflexes, manifestation of enteric nervous system control. In humans, the signal seems to be stimulated almost exclusively by the presence of fat in the proximal small intestine. Additionally, distension of the colon is a primary stimulator of contractions." http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/largegut/motility.html
The usual advice in this forum to eat one big meal in the evening or afternoon does not work well for me. My differences re: what works for my constipation from the usual advice in this forum demonstrate once again that there can be great variability of experience between different individuals and we should try to avoid broad-brush assumptions about everyone. From what I've seen, extrapolation of individual experience onto others and overgeneralization in general is the most common error people make in their posts on dietary forums.
".... the conversion from raw plant food (especially raw starches) which isn’t digested well and therefore passes through quickly, can take several months. I think it was almost a year before I’d say that I was what I’d call ‘regular’. Also, assuming you are eating mostly meat and fat, the fat content of your food will make a big difference. Less fat will make more firm and well formed stools where very high fat intake will make soft and pasty stools."
Lex
It has been about 14 months since I reached 99% ZC and I still have daily constipation. This is probably because I already had constipation before going ZC/VLC.
So the important thing seems to be to find what works for you, because the variations between individuals can be extensive.
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I'm a VLCer with constipation, though my constipation has been lifelong, so it long preceded my period of ZC and my current VLC diet. ZC/VLC actually got rid of most of my IBS-C with D symptoms that used to accompany the constipation. Now I have what appears to be just plain chronic constipation with little or no IBS.
I had great "athletic colon success" with www.barefootherbalistmh.com Lower Bowel Balance capsules. I took it for 30 days and it restored my colon to something better than ever. My teacher promised it would strengthen my colon and it did.
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Getting constipated is really never easy. Not having to release in a day would keep you feeling bloated, uneasy and HEAVY. Cruciferous vegetables works fine to ease this pain though plus green teas. Also, one cause for me was eating red meat.
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Getting constipated is really never easy. Not having to release in a day would keep you feeling bloated, uneasy and HEAVY. Cruciferous vegetables works fine to ease this pain though plus green teas. Also, one cause for me was eating red meat.
I find this hard to believe.
You mean you are eating COOKED red meat. Right?
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Hasn't heard of the raw paleo diet yet. Is just here cause the word diet is mentioned. Selling a three day cleanse to SADers.
Cruciferous vegetables constipate me. What works for me is highmeat, raw eggs, raw butter, green juice of celery ....
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Hasn't heard of the raw paleo diet yet. Is just here cause the word diet is mentioned. Selling a three day cleanse to SADers.
(http://www.shroomery.org/ythan/banstick.jpg)
Thanks Rawzi. :)
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It has been about 14 months since I reached 99% ZC and I still have daily constipation. This is probably because I already had constipation before going ZC/VLC.
Phil, interested in the average amount of fat you think you are consuming. I've found that my stools vary in firmness in direct proportion to the amount of fat consumed. 60% fat produces very firm hard stools while 80%+ fat consumption (as percent of calories) produces pasty mushy stools that come out like squeezing soft clay between your fingers. My guess is that with the very high fat intake not all the fat is digested and it just passes through keeping things very soft in the colon, as unlike water content, the fat can't be rebasorbed from the stool before it is eliminated.
Lex
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Thanks for the info. I will measure and try to get the fat level up high.
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For me over eating is always a ticket to constipation. So try eating slightly less and see how that feels
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My food intake varies already as it is. For me it's the opposite. Undereating reduces the gastrocolic reflex and increases constipation, like was reported in the article I excerpted.
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Thanks Rawzi. :)
Cool banstick.
Back to constipation. Who needs it? People are so confused about this subject.
Sure, fiber can be helpful to some people. I'm sure it has been helpful to me in the past too. Ultimately, many so called innocuous or helpful fibers can contribute to great harm in the intestines.
I find I do best with food that strengthens and nourishes my intestines, rather than scraping whatever it can out, or exploding it out.
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Sure, fiber can be helpful to some people.
Fiber is really helpful to all the people. Fiber from fruits should suffice.
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/fiber-its-natures-broom.html
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Fiber is really helpful to all the people. Fiber from fruits should suffice.
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/fiber-its-natures-broom.html
You may do well on fiber, but fiber has not been helpful to me, and many others report little or no help from it. All I got from fiber was mineral deficiencies. You may do well on fruits, but I don't do well on fruits, raw or otherwise, despite the dogma that all people do well on raw fruits. I have reported numerous times that more than a little fruit gives me increased potassium and zinc deficiency, acne, dry skin, leukonychia, white crud on my teeth, poor sleep, pain in my bladder and kidney, etc., etc. Given that poor experiences with fiber and fruits have been reported so many times by myself and others here and outside this forum, why are you promoting these false dogmas of all doing great on fiber and fruit?
All you have to do to see that fruit is not completely beneficial or benign and the sort of harm it can do in excess is to check out one of the fruitarian forums (such as www.30bananasaday.com), peopled by fruit advocates, and see the litanies of health problems that people complain about.
Feel free to eat all the fruit and fiber you want, but please don't speak for me, and if you still think that everyone does great on it, then you're just fooling yourself.
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Fiber is really helpful to all the people. Fiber from fruits should suffice.
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/fiber-its-natures-broom.html
True, fruit fiber is the most innocuous fiber of all fibers I know of, better than green, grain, seed etc. Still, it does not help me, I don't do well with brooms in my body either. My body prefers to clean itself, without anything getting in the way. I will read your link, and I do thank you for it. I've just been in health too long to ignore some wisdom I got from the many experiences.
... I have reported numerous times that more than a little fruit gives me increased potassium and zinc deficiency, acne, dry skin, leukonychia, white crud on my teeth, poor sleep, pain in my bladder and kidney, etc., etc. Given that poor experiences with fiber and fruits have been reported so many times by myself and others here and outside this forum, why are you promoting these false dogmas of all doing great on fiber and fruit?
All you have to do to see that fruit is not completely beneficial or benign and the sort of harm it can do in excess is to check out one of the fruitarian forums (such as www.30bananasaday.com), peopled by fruit advocates, and see the litanies of health problems that people complain about.
I was a practicing 100% raw organic tree ripened juice filled fruit fruivore several times by diet, sometimes lasting several months. It gave me energy. My flexibility was good. My bones started bending and falling in and apart. My teeth started to too. I couldn't stop peeing, and was dead thirsty constantly. I lost all muscle strength. My colon completely stopped, and I had to dig my stool out by hand. Fruit is not good for my bowels, and the more I eat of it, the worse it gets.
I had been thinking lately that maybe my mistake was not eating bananas. Those people on the 30 bananas a day site swear by their "banana island" practice. I thought maybe if I ate bananas, that I would do better on all fruit and no other food, or a few greens. Now I feel more sure than ever that even banana fiber wouldn't have helped me. I've interviewed primal dieters who have come from struggling for years on other diets, including fruitarian dozens of bananas a day. Eating bananas never helped them, and didn't help them like bananas either.
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Feel free to eat all the fruit and fiber you want, but please don't speak for me, and if you still think that everyone does great on it, then you're just fooling yourself.
I'm not saying that fruits are good for everyone. Definitely not.
All I'm saying is that some amount of fiber (even small amount) is good for us.
Maybe you would do better with the fiber from some wild veggies?
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All I'm saying is that some amount of fiber (even small amount) is good for us.
I'm no longer sure this is true. It may be true that we can handle small amounts without too much problem, but that is different than saying it is good for us or that it is needed. More and more evidence points to just the opposite being true.
Lex
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I'm no longer sure this is true. ... different than saying it is good for us or that it is needed. More and more evidence points to just the opposite being true.
On another forum, I reported my good health stemming from eating aajonus' 100% raw primal diet, including that I had the most horrible constipation while 100% vegan and 100% raw vegan. A young man private messaged me there, and led me to the book "The Fiber Menace". The young man said he himself too had horrible ulcerative colitis, and cured himself by eating raw diet with as little fiber as possible.
This video is The Fiber Menace author, explaining a little of how fiber not only doesn't help relieve constipation, but is known to do the opposite. He made many videos, including how colonoscopies have caused health problems.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6848409513450459079# (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6848409513450459079#)
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This video is The Fiber Menace author, explaining a little of how fiber not only doesn't help relieve constipation, but is known to do the opposite. He made many videos, including how colonoscopies have caused health problems.
Yeah, I know him.
But his theory is incompatible with the biochemistry and physiology.
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Yeah, I know him.
But his theory is incompatible with the biochemistry and physiology.
Yeah, he's probably a cooked food eater anyway. But it's true, there are people who cannot tolerate fiber, and my own bowels work on protein and fat, not fiber at all. Green juice can get stuff out of me, but fiber cannot. He's not a total idiot anyway. I'm glad he sheds light on something important that too many don't see. Medical doctors too gave me fiber, "good" MDs, very reputable, and no matter how much they gave, it didn't do a gosh darn thing to relieve my intestines, but nearly made them burst instead.
:) I thought you might be zero carb any way. I guess you're not. I'm not every day, some days I am. I was very close to it for a long time, and felt best so far vlc.
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I thought you might be zero carb any way.
No, definitely not. :)
That's really a bad option.
I love some amount of fruits as my main source of carbs; and honeycomb from time to time. Veggies - practically I don't eat them.
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hmm this is interesting... I used to have constipation and other GI issues when I ate a regular cooked food diet, but now that I'm only eating raw meat, fat, and eggs I have no GI problems at all... maybe you need more raw fat?
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Quote from: RawZi on Yesterday at 01:14:57 AM
This video is The Fiber Menace author, explaining a little of how fiber not only doesn't help relieve constipation, but is known to do the opposite. He made many videos, including how colonoscopies have caused health problems.
Yeah, I know him.
But his theory is incompatible with the biochemistry and physiology.
Why? Could you please explain that, Hannibal?
I didn´t know so far that there are people considering fiber as a menace and as a cause for constipation. ???
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Why? Could you please explain that, Hannibal?
There are basic info in that link of Lyle McDonald - he is quite knowledgeable about this subject
I didn´t know so far that there are people considering fiber as a menace and as a cause for constipation. ???
If you eat a lot of it, from grains, legumes and some other neolithic cooked foods than for sure you'll be in trouble
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fiber supplements/high fiber diet didn't work to cure constipation for me
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Why? Could you please explain that, Hannibal?
I didn´t know so far that there are people considering fiber as a menace and as a cause for constipation. ???
Watch the Fiber Menace video. I don't agree with that guy on everything, but he's right on some things, like whole wheat contributing to constipation in some people like me (and diarrhea in others). He doesn't claim that fruit or vegetable fiber is bad, but like Lex says, it's not clear that it's particularly helpful either.
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I'm not saying that fruits are good for everyone. Definitely not.
All I'm saying is that some amount of fiber (even small amount) is good for us.
Maybe you would do better with the fiber from some wild veggies?
I was so completely thoroughly constipated on raw organically grown juicy ripe fruit only and no other food, but purest water. One of the things that helped relieve me of constipation a little but more of the tooth problems fruit only was causing was starting to eat organically grown dark green leafy vegetables then. Steamed even better. Best yet, blended raw salad with absolutely nothing sweet in it, no mango, no berry, no honey, no stevia etc. Blended fresh organically grown corn didn't bother my health. I think it was because of magnesium deficiency, at least partly.
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Hmmm, that makes some sense, because carbs can bond with Mg and other minerals (http://bondingwithfood.wordpress.com/2010/02/08/food-fundamentals/) and thus perhaps deplete them from your system and potentially cause mineral deficiencies, particularly in people who are sensitive to carbs or already have some mineral deficiency. I notice that I get potassium and zinc deficiency symptoms when I eat too much carbs of any sort, including fresh, ripe, whole, raw, organic fruits.
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Just like our bones aren't made of just calcium, our colons are not made of just fruit. They need muscle tone and lots of stuff. The fruit was terrible. I was like 80 something pounds, but my eyes clear and bright! People thought I looked ... 23 years younger than the age I was, said I looked like a little girl. I like having some strength though, and not being dehydrated no matter how much water I drink. I was advised that fats should be totally avoided, and that protein was nothing more than an unnecessary addictive substance.
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Hmmm, that makes some sense, because carbs can bond with Mg and other minerals (http://bondingwithfood.wordpress.com/2010/02/08/food-fundamentals/) and thus perhaps deplete them from your system and potentially cause mineral deficiencies
That's an unproven nonsense.
Carbs such as fruits are an excellent source of magnesium and potassium.
Of course, I'm not talking about overeating of them. Overeating of anything would couse some problems.
I notice that I get potassium and zinc deficiency symptoms when I eat too much carbs of any sort, including fresh, ripe, whole, raw, organic fruits.
Any laboratory exams re these deficiencies?
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I was so completely thoroughly constipated on raw organically grown juicy ripe fruit only and no other food, but purest water.
I don't imagine eating only fruits.
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. Any laboratory exams re these deficiencies?
I have a lb showing I was deficient in chloride? (chlorine? not looking at it right now) and deficient in blood protein when I was fruitarian and constipated. Albumen. I had plenty of test from before then. I was never low in those things other times.
I don't imagine eating only fruits.
I bought the fruit at the local organic co-op, all very delicious. I felt weaker than ever though. My jaw felt like it was shrinking too, not in a good way. My bones started denting etc, but I guess that is no surprise. I was small boned, then all fruit, so of course. It was a dumb experiment. I was trying to listen to a couple of gurus.
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It was a dumb experiment. I was trying to listen to a couple of gurus.
Not dumb at all. Look what you learned, and where this new knowledge has taken you...
Lex
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Not dumb at all. Look what you learned, and where this new knowledge has taken you...
Thank you, Lex. It wasn't all, bad, and experiencing all that served it's purpose for me too. These gurus show all their credentials though, and keep pushing that they know the one and only way for man and woman. It's kind of funny. Yes, without that new knowledge, I may not have found raw meat. I may have not seen the need for it, maybe. It's interesting how so many of us here have eaten fruitarian menus, last stop before here much of the time.
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That's an unproven nonsense.
I wasn't trying to imply that it applies to everyone--just suggesting a potential explanation for RawZi's specific case. That doesn't mean it applies at all to you. Individuals are different and what applies to one doesn't necessarily apply to another.
Katelyn recently reported noticing much hate directed at ZCers/VLCers here. I've noticed it too, and it seems to be building. What gives? My philosophy is "to each their own" and "live and let live" and let's speak for ourselves. Why can't we do that?
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I wasn't trying to imply that it applies to everyone--just suggesting a potential explanation for RawZi's specific case. That doesn't mean it applies at all to you. Individuals are different and what applies to one doesn't necessarily apply to another.
Katelyn recently reported noticing much hate directed at ZCers/VLCers here. I've noticed it too, and it seems to be building. What gives? My philosophy is "to each their own" and "live and let live" and let's speak for ourselves. Why can't we do that?
I find my self annoyed at some of the ZCers here sometimes. Not because they are ZC, but because the way they act. They act like ZC is so right and that everyone else are idiots that don't go ZC. An exaggeration perhaps, but it has that vibe to it.
When I write something on here I say what works and doesn't work for ME. I don't go making huge claims that what I'm doing is right and fits everyone. Because that's not the case. Different bodies, different heritage, different reactions to different foods. Thats what I say.
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I find my self annoyed at some of the ZCers here sometimes. Not because they are ZC, but because the way they act. They act like ZC is so right and that everyone else are idiots that don't go ZC. An exaggeration perhaps, but it has that vibe to it.
In the past some ZCers did go overboard, like William (who was banned--and I was one of the people who requested he be banned) and Katelyn (who has been behaving better and is actually quite nice when you get to know her), but who are these mysterious unnamed ZCers who are still acting up? Other than Katelyn, do we have any ZCers left here who advocate it for others? Technically, even Katelyn's not a true ZCer because I think she started eating liver and eggs. Lex is near-ZC, but he hasn't advocated it for others and actually suggests that others consider eating some plant foods. So we don't seem to have anyone who is both 100% ZC and advocates it for all. Can anyone name a single member here who fits that bill?
I'm a facultative carnivore, not a ZCer myself, which means I eat a small amount of plant foods but don't see them as necessarily essential to my diet.
When I write something on here I say what works and doesn't work for ME. I don't go making huge claims that what I'm doing is right and fits everyone. Because that's not the case. Different bodies, different heritage, different reactions to different foods. Thats what I say.
We agree on that. Nothing that I write is intended to apply to anyone beyond myself or the person I'm responding to unless I say otherwise, and I generally try to make that clear, as I did above, and avoid overgeneralized statements like "A carnivore diet is helpful to all people." Instead I try to write in terms of myself, such as "I do well on a mostly-raw facultatively carnivorous diet."
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Well, it would be erroneous to suggest that people like Lex and others are not strongly pro-ZC, given past rather overly vehement arguments against carbs.
I can see why ZCers might be rather opposed against carbs given their own very negative experiences with them, of course this is contrasted with others' experiences, myself included, who have done very badly indeed on RZC. Naturally, both camps tend to get annoyed with threads focusing on either the benefits or disadvantages of raw fruits.
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Well, it would be erroneous to suggest that people like Lex and others are not strongly pro-ZC, given past rather overly vehement arguments against carbs.
A) Lex is not truly 100% ZC (he eats carb-containing liver) and B) he has repeatedly recommended that other people should not emulate him, but instead include some plant foods in their diet and C) I didn't suggest that Lex isn't strongly pro-near-ZC, just that he isn't both 100% ZC and advocates it for all. My question was who fits that bill. Yet another straw man from you. One of the things I'm tired of is the lumping together of VLCers with ZCers and the painting of all of us with the same brush.
I can see why ZCers might be rather opposed against carbs given their own very negative experiences with them, of course this is contrasted with others' experiences, myself included, who have done very badly indeed on RZC. Naturally, both camps tend to get annoyed with threads focusing on either the benefits or disadvantages of raw fruits.
That's a much more reasonable statement, and one I can agree with. Just reporting good or bad results with fruits or ZC/VLC does not mean people are necessarily advocating their approach for all.
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This strictly zero-carb approach is a complete nonsense, because even muscle-meats contain some small amount of carbs. The very fresh ones cantain relatively quite a lot of it due to muscle glycogen.
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A) Lex is not truly 100% ZC (he eats carb-containing liver) and B) he has repeatedly recommended that other people should not emulate him, but instead include some plant foods in their diet and C) I didn't suggest that Lex isn't strongly pro-near-ZC, just that he isn't both 100% ZC and advocates it for all. My question was who fits that bill. Yet another straw man from you. One of the things I'm tired of is the lumping together of VLCers with ZCers and the painting of all of us with the same brush.
Lex has in the past been fanatically against carbs, along with several other RZC proponents. At one point early on in the forum, the only moderate RZCer was Craig. While william has left, there are still some hardline stances among some RZCers. VLC doesn`t really accurately describe those who are anti-carbs - just like rawists who sometimes eat a few cooked foods for social reasons are still called rawists, so those who eat a few carbs but not for health-related reasons can not really be called VLCers.
As for RZC and liver, that`s just rubbish. When others refer to RZC, they don`t really mean no carbs - they mean no plant foods, so someone who eats only animal foods including raw liver is still RZC. Perhaps you could come up with a better term to describe those against plant foods.
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When others refer to RZC, they don`t really mean no carbs - they mean no plant foods, so someone who eats only animal foods including raw liver is still RZC. Perhaps you could come up with a better term to describe those against plant foods.
"Zero-plant" is a better description.
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"Follow those who seek the truth, run from those who claim to have found it."
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Thanks for clearing up this ZC diet. I was puzzled when people were suggesting you couldn't eat liver or eggs...
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Lex has in the past been fanatically against carbs, along with several other RZC proponents.
Gosh Tyler, where did I give the impression that I'm fanatically against carbs? True, I've argued valiantly against colon flushes, using sugar laden fruits in place of water, and other naturopathic nonsense, but never against including some carbs as part of your diet.
I think you'll find several posts where I recommend "mostly red meat and the fat from red meat animals with a small salad and possibly a piece of fruit each day". This might well be described as a low carb or even a very low carb protocol, but I'd hardly label it as fanatically against carbs.
I've also stated very plainly that at this time I include no carbs in my PERSONAL diet and it is working very well for me, BUT, if I find that problems start to develop then I will make whatever change seems appropriate in a heartbeat as I'm all about what works for me in my daily life, not what someone guru proclaims to be the current dietary holy grail.
Lex
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"Zero-plant" is a better description.
Yes, or raw carnivore or RVLC or RLC or RAF. I think it's time to bury "ZC". Even the owner of the ZIOH forum gave up 100% adherence to it, last I heard.
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I remember Lex saying before that he doesn't want to say what he is doing is best, because he remembers saying the same for the vegan diet. In which most of us have tried an came to the conclusion that it wasn't best.
I like Lex's open mind, what he is doing now works for him, he doesn't argue that there could be flaws, but until he encounters a problem, he will remain on his current diet because its working for him and giving good results.
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Gosh Tyler, where did I give the impression that I'm fanatically against carbs? True, I've argued valiantly against colon flushes, using sugar laden fruits in place of water, and other naturopathic nonsense, but never against including some carbs as part of your diet.
I think you'll find several posts where I recommend "mostly red meat and the fat from red meat animals with a small salad and possibly a piece of fruit each day". This might well be described as a low carb or even a very low carb protocol, but I'd hardly label it as fanatically against carbs.
I've also stated very plainly that at this time I include no carbs in my PERSONAL diet and it is working very well for me, BUT, if I find that problems start to develop then I will make whatever change seems appropriate in a heartbeat as I'm all about what works for me in my daily life, not what someone guru proclaims to be the current dietary holy grail.
Lex
Funny, colong cleansing and juice fasting has been with out a doubt the biggest improver of my health
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Funny, colong cleansing and juice fasting has been with out a doubt the biggest improver of my health
I suppose it is a matter of scale. I was a vegan for 20 years. I did colon cleanses religiously and drank copious quantities of juice. I drank at least a pint of mixed green juice every day and would go through a 50 lb sack of organic carrots every week. I grew wheat grass by the flat and usually had at least 100 sq. ft. of my patio committed to wheat grass production at any given time. I made and consumed rejuvilac, a lightly fermented raw tea made from soaking grain. My garage looked like a commercial sprouting operation as I consumed large amounts of fermented nut cheeses and sprouts of all kinds. In short, I did everything that all the gurus said I should do.
What did I get for my trouble? For the first 5 years or so I felt better than I had when consuming a normal SAD diet so I was convinced that I’d found the true path. However, from that point on things started to go down hill. Little things at first and then as time progressed bigger an bigger problems surfaced. I had constant gas and foul smelling stools. I was cold all the time and had to wear a sweater in the summer. I got migraine headaches several times per month that were so severe that I’d have to go to bed with a heating pad and pillow over my face for 2 days at a time. I lost the enamel on my teeth. I lost bone density in my jaw to the point that my dentist said I was going to lose my teeth and would need full dentures within a few years. My blood pressure rose to 150 or 95, my fasting blood sugar rose to 140, my weight rose to 215+, my waist went from 32” to 40”, my cholesterol rose to 250+, I lost a good bit of my hair, and my prostate started to give me problems and I was only in my late 40’s, but I persevered because the books and gurus said I was doing all the right things. All the gurus told me my problems were clearly ‘detox’ issues. That I was clearly having ‘healing crisis’ as my body was finally able to get to all that nasty stuff that had been stored in my fat for 20 years. Never mind that I was adding weight not losing it. Gurus never let facts get in the way of their religious devotion to their beliefs.
At age 50 I gave up. My teeth were loose and the dentist wanted to pull them. My doctor wanted me on cholesterol, blood pressure, and diabetes medication. My nose was always running and I felt terrible all the time. No energy and most of the time I just didn’t want to do anything. Emotions were a real roller coaster as well. One day I’d be feeling high and excited about something and then for the next week I’d be in the dumps and not want to get out of bed. Upon close examination it seemed to me that it had to be my diet that was causing the trouble as everyone around me was doing much better than I was and the only thing different was what I was eating. I went back to SAD.
Upon returning to SAD I did start to feel a bit better. Some energy returned and my mood was a little better. Unfortunately my teeth were still loose, and all my lab tests continued to show that I still needed medications for the previously diagnosed problems. I didn’t want to take meds so I told my doctor I was going to look for another solution. He warned me that if I didn’t do something soon it would be to late as I was a heart attack or stroke just waiting to happen.
It was then that I ran across the BeyondVeg website, Raymond Auddett’s “Neanderthin” book, and other paleo resources, and decided to give paleo a shot. A couple of years later I found TylerDurden’s original Yahoo Group and the rest of my journey is fairly well documented here in my journal.
Anyway, I learned that short term improvements (remember I felt great for the first 5 years or so on the vegan diet) can happen from a dietary change, and this can be followed by disastrous long term results. I will no longer tell you that what I am doing is the right path. What I now say is that here’s what I’m doing, here’s how long I’ve been doing it, and here are my results. I report both the good and the bad as, unlike the guru’s, I eat to best fuel my body and not as a religious commitment.
If you think colon cleanses and juicing are working for you, more power to you. Unfortunately, I, and others like me have learned the hard way that this is not a viable long term solution.
Lex
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That was a great read, I think we've been down similar roads. Atleast we have similar attitudes. I for one, wont say that RPD is 'right' simply because I've made that mistake before. Like you I was sooo sure that raw vegan was the way to go at some point.
I'm not saying juicing and colon cleanses is something everyone should do regularly. But for beginners it can definitely jump start the healing process and is quiet effective. My belief is that once you've done a few colon cleanses and a few fasts you're good to go and don't have to do any more if you stick to your diet.
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I've also stated very plainly that at this time I include no carbs in my PERSONAL diet and it is working very well for me
What about kidney stones? They are correlated with strict ZC.
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What about kidney stones? They are correlated with strict ZC.
Well, not exactly. They are correlated with strict ZC where fluid intake is restricted and closely managed as part of the overall protocol when a ketogenic diet is used to control epilepsy. In this case there does seem to be a 6% increase in the incidents of kidney stones over the general population.
Based on my experience, my father's experience, my son-in-law's experience, and everything I've read on the subject, the only common denominator seems to be low fluid intake. Though I know of no study, my guess is that if they increased fluid intake on the epilepsy ketogenic diets the incidents of kidney stones would drop to that of the general population or possibly below. Since I increased my fluid intake I've had no further problems. Of course there may be a kidney stone just waiting to make my life miserable at the most inopportune time, and if this happens you can be sure I'll log it in my journal.
Lex
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They are correlated with strict ZC where fluid intake is restricted
Yeah, I know. But the problem is that the fewer carbs I eat the less water I could drink.
Drinking 3-4 litres of water a day on ZC would be definitely unrealistic for me.
Sometimes, esp. when it's colder, I hardly drink any water - I don't want to. But water from fruits - yes.