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Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Hot Topics => Topic started by: iamthecountry on October 18, 2010, 11:44:47 pm

Title: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: iamthecountry on October 18, 2010, 11:44:47 pm
Hi, I am into paleo but also consider myself primal and follow aajonus vonderplanitz.  I don't think its an ideology as much as a personal choice about what works for each individual.  For me, I feel raw dairy is a great addition to my diet.  How do you guys feel?

Sean

www.Raw-Dairy.com
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: ForTheHunt on October 18, 2010, 11:53:32 pm
Hi, I am into paleo but also consider myself primal and follow aajonus vonderplanitz.  I don't think its an ideology as much as a personal choice about what works for each individual.  For me, I feel raw dairy is a great addition to my diet.  How do you guys feel?

Sean

www.Raw-Dairy.com

I started raw dairy 3 weeks ago and so far I'm loving it.

I'm very perceptive about whats good and what's bad for my body and so far I've had nothing but positive effects and more energy from it.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: SkinnyDevil on October 18, 2010, 11:55:43 pm
Doesn't work for me, so I don't do raw dairy.

But you are correct - go with whatever works for YOU.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: TylerDurden on October 19, 2010, 12:00:50 am
Dairy, raw or pasteurised, ruined my life.

Perhaps you should have made a poll.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: ster546464@yahoo.co.uk on October 19, 2010, 12:35:12 am
I dont know, but look into donkey milk, sheep milk, and goat milk if the cow milk controversy is too complicated.

Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: ForTheHunt on October 19, 2010, 01:02:53 am
Dairy, raw or pasteurised, ruined my life.

Perhaps you should have made a poll.

You serious?
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: TylerDurden on October 19, 2010, 01:12:39 am
You serious?
Yes.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: ForTheHunt on October 19, 2010, 01:54:00 am
Yes.

That is definitely a big statement.

I am kind of worried about the milk seeing as it has such a horrible reputation on this board. But like I said, for me it's working nicely. I feel balanced, calm, more centered and my energy is really stable. It's not manic energy as you once described (if I remember correctly).

But yet with all the opposition milk is getting here I'm afraid I might wake up one day and done damage to my health.

Could you share, in detail how your milk experience was? How the whole process developed

Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: TylerDurden on October 19, 2010, 02:43:54 am
 I first developed anxiety-related issues. Then, in later childhood, I got a permanently runny nose because I could not digest casein properly. As time went on, I developed chronic fatigue,  severe muscle-weakness, inflamed skin here and there, permanently bloodshot eyes, low blood-pressure, teeth almost falling out,  low concetration, frequent urination and chronic constipation etc. These were wholly dairy-related as I did not recover therefrom on a RVAF diet  until I got rid of all the raw dairy from my diet.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: yuli on October 19, 2010, 03:04:02 am
That is definitely a big statement.
I am kind of worried about the milk seeing as it has such a horrible reputation on this board. But like I said, for me it's working nicely. I feel balanced, calm, more centered and my energy is really stable. It's not manic energy as you once described (if I remember correctly).
But yet with all the opposition milk is getting here I'm afraid I might wake up one day and done damage to my health.

Its like the same as with the ZC & non-ZC issue, it works for some people and not for others, that is clear. There is some long-time RAF'ers who don't complain about dairy and have been consuming it for a while.
I also feel calm energy when I eat dairy and I love the nice tasty fat it provides, I also have no problem digesting it (mind you its not milk or cream just aged cheeses, I haven't tried raw milk and cream un-aged yet). But its obvious some people just cannot physically tolerate it, just as there are people who can't eat fruit, or nuts, without feeling problems. Overall raw food has a good effect on people, but raw foods are just as different as our specific dietary requirements. Raw dairy is not paleo, however I find it a nice raw animal product with good nutritional value. The dairy I eat also has no lactose left in it, I don't know if that matters, I'll have to see when I try some raw cream.

FTH why are you afraid? You are not going to wake up one day and realize "OMG raw dairy just totally fucked me up! Now I am gonna die..." lol, if its doing bad things to you you will be able to tell gradually, see some small problems with it and what not...maybe don't eat it for a month then eat it for the next month and just see the difference, is it positive or negative....

Raw dairy is getting opposition here cause of 2 main reasons:
a - It truly gives some people problems (just like some people have problems eating higher carbs, or lower carbs, or nuts etc)
b - It's NOT Paleo! (I love the Paleo reasoning for how we should eat but I also can agree with reasons to eat raw dairy as well, to me Paleo is awesome but its not a religion I have to follow if you know what I mean, I was never one to be religious or not listen to opposing sides without logical consideration anyway)

There is a lot of controversy here about raw dairy and I think it should not be so thats why I wrote the above, sorry for babbling LOL, I mean you either CAN eat it or you can't because it negatively affects you....thats why there is a Primal Diet board here still, where raw dairy is accepted.

Blah!
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: ezekiel on October 19, 2010, 03:21:37 am
I rather avoid dairy all together based on my experience from cooked dairy and raw cheeses.

However, out of all dairy I do the best with butter, and do better with goat dairy over cows.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: raw on October 19, 2010, 04:10:12 am
me too
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: miles on October 19, 2010, 08:08:39 am
Raw dairy is not paleo

A small amount of it could be, as one could drink the milk of a slain animal.

FTH why are you afraid? You are not going to wake up one day and realize "OMG raw dairy just totally fucked me up! Now I am gonna die..." lol, if its doing bad things to you you will be able to tell gradually, see some small problems with it and what not...maybe don't eat it for a month then eat it for the next month and just see the difference, is it positive or negative....

Hm if it's slow enough change he might not actually be sure it's really happening until he's quite far along the road.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: yuli on October 19, 2010, 10:52:52 am
Hm if it's slow enough change he might not actually be sure it's really happening until he's quite far along the road.

Really? how far down the road? I am not even that far down the road and I have experienced my body better and worse due to what I am eating...anyone who can't digest/process dairy/casein will certainly feel problems over time, especially on a diet as clean as raw paleo which makes people sensitive to things that are crap...for example Tyler clearly has problems with it, if he starts eating it now he will not feel very well, he will slowly get more symptoms, but he won't die all of a sudden, and it wont be too late to stop, it easy to stop eating something, people are not that weak and most dietary mistakes can be reversed as we all know...

Most of us were on SAD before and we switched because over time it gave us problems right. But it did't kill us, well not me any way, with SAD I just felt that it was slowly and surely making my body/digestion more sluggish and more sick...so I switched and got much better...then for a while I didn't eat dairy...then I started to eat it and nothing got "worse"...sooo MAYBE it is a slow and quiet poison that is killing me ever-so-slowly that I can't even notice, in that case ANY food could be doing that to us, that is why there are some people who restrict eating/calories since they believe all food slowly kills us...but then again we slowly die from the day we're born, so who cares, its definitely nothing to be afraid of.

If your teeth are good, you feel healthy, energetic, good skin, no mental problems, no pains in your body, good digestion...then I doubt its much more slowly poisoning you then living does. I just find it funny to be scared of eating something that works for you because another person has issues with it....I have a friend who is severely allergic to salmon, if he eats it his throat swells and he can't breathe, but he can eat trout and other fish safely....am I going to be afraid to eat salmon cause of that, no way!  :P
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: TylerDurden on October 19, 2010, 02:05:03 pm
Actually, quite a number of people have found out, only after years of eating RVAF diets, that raw dairy was unhealthy for them. The real trouble is if raw dairy is only mildly harmful or takes longer to cause problems as it is then far more difficult to tell if it is not good for one. Even worse, a mildly harmful food might not  cause any obvious immediate harm in and of itself,  but could easily  greatly slow down or stop the healing recovery process completely as the body then diverts essential resources away just to deal with the problem food. This has happened with a number of people, who only really found out they did badly on raw dairy until after a couple of years or so consuming it.
 It is also essential to highlight problems with raw dairy as it is so easy for someone on a RVAF diet to blame their troubles on raw animal foods in general when only 1 item such as raw dairy may be the cause. I almost gave up the whole RVAF thing until I finally had the sense to refuse to believe in the insane propaganda touted by pro-raw dairy advocates on some other groups, ages ago.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: yuli on October 19, 2010, 02:22:16 pm
I  really see your point, perhaps I too will find out that I do better without dairy after a couple more years on the diet. Ya never know...
It's just some people do consume it and do well on it long-term thats why I am saying it may depend on the person.
Perhaps right now I feel so better eating RAF that I don't even notice the effects of the raw dairy, I will find out in the end, I just don't think it will be "too late" by the time I find out (if I do)...also I don't know if it matters but my raw cheese consumption is very little compared to other foods I eat, well-aged cheese has a ton of flavor so a little piece goes a really long way for me. Maybe just like in paleo-times if killing an animal that has milk was rare, then maybe dairy should be eaten in SMALL amounts....hmmm....
Raw meat is the last thing I would blame if I feel unwell BTW, I would first blame cooked food if I ended up eating it, next I'd blame bad combination of nuts and/or fruits or just too much of them, next I'd blame the dairy and only lastly would I think about the meat (if stopping anything else has not helped).  :D
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: Hannibal on October 19, 2010, 02:53:55 pm
If someone is eager to eat dairy then it's better to eat some rotten aged cheese (from goat or sheep) or Casu Marzu.
That could be paleo food as some milk deposited in the cave by an animal could have converted into some rotten moldy "thing" ;)
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: Brother on October 19, 2010, 04:53:27 pm
I believe that I do well with dairy as part of my diet. But I dont advocate dairy, because there are a lot of people who have low a low tolerance for it. I believe that the majority of people on earth are intollerant to lactose in some degree.

"Lactose intolerance is the inability to metabolize lactose, because of a lack of the required enzyme lactase in the digestive system. It is estimated that 75% of adults worldwide show some decrease in lactase activity during adulthood.[1]  The frequency of decreased lactase activity ranges from as little as 5% in northern Europe, up to 71% for Sicily, to more than 90% in some African and Asian countries.[2]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_intolerance

by nation:
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Laktoseintoleranz-1.svg)

So Tyler and other dairy opponents/sceptics are entirely right in their observation, but this does not rule out that there are people who can tolerate and do well with it. If you look at the map however, it becomes obvious that we are in the minority. So whenever someone asks the questions "is dairy right for me", the correct answer is. "I dont know, try it" and then tell people that if they get any reaction to it like a build up of mucus in their throat (often an instant reaction), you should probably stay away from it.

Not that mucus is bad by itself should be said. But when it comes as an more or less instant reaction to something you eat, I would pay attention to that.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: Laddox on October 19, 2010, 06:28:00 pm
Prior to eating RAF, i couldn't do dairy at all without super amounts of phlegm, from cheese, and bloating and gas from raw milk. But before i started eating RAF, i went on a 13 day fast (water only) I came off the fast with the intention of following Aajonus's primal style diet, and found that raw dairy was fine. In fact, once i started on raw milk, i couldn't stop guzzling the stuff! So now i have raw milk and raw butter daily. No phlegm, and no bloating.
But its early days for me. Ive been eating RAF/Primal for not even 2 months....but hey....i feel better than ever. So far.....

But i will definitely cut it out if i feel any trouble brewing, but at the moment, i crave it more than not.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: TylerDurden on October 19, 2010, 06:37:46 pm
Cravings for the very food one is allergic to are extremely common.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: Hannibal on October 19, 2010, 06:39:18 pm
In fact, once i started on raw milk, i couldn't stop guzzling the stuff!
It's a drawback.
Opioids are the culprit.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: Brother on October 19, 2010, 06:40:33 pm
Cravings for the very food one is allergic to are extremely common.

Interesting. Do you know of any litterature on this? I often have crawings for refined sugar, but quite clearly I am allergic to it.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: TylerDurden on October 19, 2010, 07:19:48 pm
Interesting. Do you know of any litterature on this? I often have crawings for refined sugar, but quite clearly I am allergic to it.
No idea re literature. I only heard of this from other raw-dairy-sufferers who stated that cravings were a common phenomenon among allergy sufferers. Checking online suggests that the cravings are caused by a rush of endorphins produced by the body so as to make you feel good and avoid feeling the withdrawal symptoms after cutting out that allergenic food.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: ForTheHunt on October 19, 2010, 07:52:20 pm
Prior to eating RAF, i couldn't do dairy at all without super amounts of phlegm, from cheese, and bloating and gas from raw milk. But before i started eating RAF, i went on a 13 day fast (water only) I came off the fast with the intention of following Aajonus's primal style diet, and found that raw dairy was fine. In fact, once i started on raw milk, i couldn't stop guzzling the stuff! So now i have raw milk and raw butter daily. No phlegm, and no bloating.
But its early days for me. Ive been eating RAF/Primal for not even 2 months....but hey....i feel better than ever. So far.....

But i will definitely cut it out if i feel any trouble brewing, but at the moment, i crave it more than not.

Exact same thing happened to me.

Before my fast I couldn't touch dairy, same reasons as you.. I could just feel my lymph nodes swelling up and my ears getting stuffy. But after the fast I couldn't feel a thing.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: djr_81 on October 19, 2010, 07:54:19 pm
I think Brother has the most pragmatic approach to the dairy issue. Many people on this planet do not have the ability to handle dairy properly but some do. I don't believe there is inherent harm with trying it to see if it works for you but foods can have steadily worsening effects on one's body at such a rate that someone might not notice until a drastic change is made. I speak from the experience of all my food allergies which were exactly in this capacity.
I think we can all agree that the quantities of dairy that are consumed by most primal dieters are not a truly sustainable quantity, particularly in paleo times, but if it helps your health more power to you. I just suggest a cycle of time on & time off to confirm that it does not cause you problems; perhaps 2-3 months on then one month off.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: ster546464@yahoo.co.uk on October 19, 2010, 11:53:24 pm
Exact same thing happened to me.

Before my fast I couldn't touch dairy, same reasons as you.. I could just feel my lymph nodes swelling up and my ears getting stuffy. But after the fast I couldn't feel a thing.

what breed of cow was it

that is hugely important . avoid black and white holsteins as a general rule

Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: ster546464@yahoo.co.uk on October 20, 2010, 12:37:33 am
Human breast milk has casein in it
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: TylerDurden on October 20, 2010, 01:00:57 am
Human breast milk has casein in it
Irrelevant as  it is the amount of casein that is important. Human milk has far lower levels of casein than cows' milk etc.

The A1 and A2 issue is also a scam since those allergic to raw dairy often report trying milk from only A2 cows and still experiencing problems with the  stuff.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: ForTheHunt on October 20, 2010, 01:09:51 am
Irrelevant as  it is the amount of casein that is important. Human milk has far lower levels of casein than cows' milk etc.

The A1 and A2 issue is also a scam since those allergic to raw dairy often report trying milk from only A2 cows and still experiencing problems with the  stuff.

Doesn't make it a scam
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: TylerDurden on October 20, 2010, 01:16:18 am
Doesn't make it a scam
It is a scam as a NZ company is planning to profit from this by making up new stories about how supposedly wonderful A2 milk is, and they then plan to corner the market.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: ForTheHunt on October 20, 2010, 02:16:25 am
It is a scam as a NZ company is planning to profit from this by making up new stories about how supposedly wonderful A2 milk is, and they then plan to corner the market.

Perhaps, but this phenomena is real non the less.. I've just been reading some independent Icelandic studies on the matter and they pretty much confirm that it's real. And the studies are over 12 years old. So it's not some fad.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: TylerDurden on October 20, 2010, 02:47:16 am
It is a fad. Here is a relevant article:-

http://www.redmountainspa.com/_health_education_fitness/articles/a2milk.php

The article describes the vested interests behind the A2 scam. As for studies, many companies hire scientists to do bogus studies confirming their own lies, means nothing.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: Brother on October 20, 2010, 03:00:23 am
The article describes the vested interests behind the A2 scam. As for studies, many companies hire scientists to do bogus studies confirming their own lies, means nothing.

It has the same ring to it as this load of fertilizer http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/ewi/liquidew.html really took rounds in the BB community (the principle not this particular brand). Take a look at the salespitch:

"The human body cannot completely and safely digest a raw egg white. So, if you like to do the "Rocky Routine" with a raw egg or raw egg white in your drink, you are wasting your time, not to mention the threat of Salmonella. Avidin, which is found in raw egg whites, blocks the uptake of Vitamin B6 (Biotin) causing a vitamin deficiency. You must cook the egg white to neutralize the Avidin and allow your body to safely digest the protein and utilize all its Amino acids."

See what I mean?
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: yuli on October 20, 2010, 03:01:31 am
If someone is eager to eat dairy then it's better to eat some rotten aged cheese (from goat or sheep) or Casu Marzu.
That could be paleo food as some milk deposited in the cave by an animal could have converted into some rotten moldy "thing" ;)

Heh I like that idea/concept.

The cheese I get is cheddar aged at least 3 years (it tastes so strong its unbelievable, its impossible to eat a lot)...it has no lactose in it at that point so I don't know how I would even react to lactose now. This cheese just tastes and feels like strong, hard, rotten butter really  :o

The diet cured my pimples completely and eating some of this cheese has not caused any pimples to come back, I judge what I am eating by my skin, my skin is very reactive and when I eat something wrong I can tell right away by my skin. Also my teeth are super solid so far...

I don't find the old cheese addictive at all like people claim with milk...I can not have it for a week and I am fine, then I have some and I also feel great. I don't think I'll ever drink milk (unless its like shot once in a blue moon), that does not seem natural/realistic, I would though like to taste some real cream sometime, that must be tasty  ;)

I was thinking of leaving a piece the cheese out of the fridge to get some mold and rot more, I'll try that it seems like a cool experiment.

I think raw cheese aged that long and rotted can no longer be compared to cream/milk etc...they seem like very different things to me really.

Also about the issue of too much calcium and too little magnesium, a small piece of aged cheese does not have a LOT of calcium really, it just has a normal amount. Fresh blood has lots of good calcium, unfortunately I don't have lots of fresh blood as I don't hunt, so the small amount of cheese can maybe replace the fresh blood...hmmm? I often eat some raw pumpkin seeds, brocolli and sometimes halibut, which are all rich in magnesium, and I eat those in way greater quantities then the cheese. Oysters and raw peanuts (yes I know peanuts are so BAAAAD  ;)) also contain magnesium... Also its too easy to sprinkle some high quality magnesium on your piece of cheese if you're that worried. Good magnesium tastes great by the way!
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: Brother on October 20, 2010, 03:15:35 am

Quote
I was thinking of leaving a piece the cheese out of the fridge to get some mold and rot more, I'll try that it seems like a cool experiment.

You may get dissapointed. Controlling the bacteria and molds is key to the difference between a cheese and lump of rotten milk. It does not take long for a cheese to get a rancid taste if left out. while you experiment, you can also try some of the cheeses that are deliberately infected but under control. cheeses like Stilton, Dana Bleu, Gorgonzola, Mon Bierre. Go to a specialist store and get intstructions.

If you get some raw milk, try this out. Pour some of it in a deep plate. Add a tiny amount of buttermilk. Leave it out on the table for a day or two. Pour off the water and eat the soured milk. It tastes delicious. And reaches highers states with a bit of honey!

If you try the same trick btw, with pasterized milk, it just rots and turns foul smelling.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: ster546464@yahoo.co.uk on October 20, 2010, 04:40:47 am
http://www.redmountainspa.com/_health_education_fitness/articles/a2milk.php

Its the pasteurised they should be worried about, not a1 or 2.

rding to Professor Bob, mice fed A1 milk developed high levels of diabetes whereas those who consumed A2 milk did not – music to the ears of A2 marketers. A2 proponents also like to point to the strong, worldwide link of A1 milk consumption to disease, with only weaker health threats associated with A2.


did they mention whether they used raw milk or pasteurised milk in the test on mice ?
and any dairy imported from new zealand will have to be pasteurised !! unless its cheese, the law wont allow fresh raw dairy to be imported

Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: yuli on October 20, 2010, 05:44:58 am
Irrelevant as  it is the amount of casein that is important. Human milk has far lower levels of casein than cows' milk etc.

How much casein does goat and sheep milk have compared to cows then?
And do you think all people react the same to casein ingestion?
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: TylerDurden on October 20, 2010, 06:20:20 am
How much casein does goat and sheep milk have compared to cows then?
And do you think all people react the same to casein ingestion?
No idea re exact proportions. I think that goat milk has less casein in it than cows milk, not sure though.

One thing I have heard is that the milk of some animals, such as wolves' milk is so high in casein that human babies are unable to  properly digest it, and so would die from consuming the stuff.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 20, 2010, 06:31:45 am
...As for studies, many companies hire scientists to do bogus studies confirming their own lies, means nothing.
Speaking of which...

Lies, Damned Lies, and Medical Science (http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/11/lies-damned-lies-and-medical-science/8269/)
Much of what medical researchers conclude in their studies is misleading, exaggerated, or flat-out wrong. So why are doctors—to a striking extent—still drawing upon misinformation in their everyday practice? Dr. John Ioannidis has spent his career challenging his peers by exposing their bad science.

Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: Hannibal on October 20, 2010, 01:35:32 pm
Vitamin B6 (Biotin)   
Biotin is not a vitamin B6!
It's called vitamin H or vitamin b7
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: yuli on October 20, 2010, 01:49:39 pm
One thing I have heard is that the milk of some animals, such as wolves' milk is so high in casein that human babies are unable to  properly digest it, and so would die from consuming the stuff.

I am kinda pissed nutrition databases do not list casein content, idiots, they list gluten and everything else, lazy people...there is obviously people that are way more sensitive to casein then others!

I have also read in many sources that babies/kids are much less tolerant of casein then adults are, I wonder why that is.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: Hannibal on October 20, 2010, 02:07:31 pm
It's not only casein that people are allergic to, but also many other milk proteins, such as beta-lactoglobulin, alpha-lactalbumin, immunoglobulins, serum albumin
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: TylerDurden on October 20, 2010, 02:44:06 pm
There are even those with galactosemia who eventually get brain-damage and die if they continue to drink milk, however raw, as they cannot digest galactose in milk.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: yuli on October 20, 2010, 03:19:48 pm
It's not only casein that people are allergic to, but also many other milk proteins, such as beta-lactoglobulin, alpha-lactalbumin, immunoglobulins, serum albumin

Erm...I am no scientist but...isn't serum albumin extremely abundant in all mammalian blood too?
And isn't lactoglobulin and lactalbumin not present in aged cheese which is also lactose free?? But even then who cares because:

Look at it this way, there is people severely allergic to nuts, then people mildly allergic to nuts, then people not at all allergic to nuts whatsoever, why are nuts not so much looked down upon? Oh thats right, because people are not drinking 2 glasses of nut butter every day ha ha
And isn't it a matter of quantity and frequency... just like with nuts...
Like drinking a glass of milk every day is NOT equal to having a small amount of cheese twice a week...or am I totally delirious here.

Same idea with things like tomatoes, people are like oh noooo they are nightshades run you CAN'T eat them, erm noooo only some people can't (and I feel bad for those people). Most people can consume nightshades without problems just not too much of them.

There is foods that can be eaten every day, like fish, meat, animal fat, natural fruits...
And foods that have to be eaten sparingly, like dairy, bones, certain vegetables and fruits as well cannot be eaten too often...too me its all part of the same thing, equilibrium and balance. Your body needs to rest from dairy, like a fast, but a dairy fast, not be bombarded with it, unless you're severely allergic to it then just never eat it but some people make it sound like everyone is poisoned by ANY amount of dairy no matter what dairy (thats really annoying). I don't even love dairy so much like others and I still find it annoying....

Oh and I know someone is going to say well thats because dairy problems is the most common complain on RAF - well its the most common problem because a lot of people gorge on too much of it, duh! If people gorged on nut butter, or fresh squeezed tomato juice by the gallon you'll also have complaints, but people find it easier to gorge on milk and cream. That they do.

And then someone else is going to say well noo even a tiny amount of dairy gives me symptoms, of course....thats because you probably OVERATE it before in your life and developed an allergy/toxicity to it by bombarding yourself with pasteurized dairy from a young age. You poisoned yourself with dairy... I thought thats obvious. Since I was small till now I have only consumed dairy very sparingly and NEVER EVER drank pasteurized milk because it is the most disgusting poison thing I ever tasted, maybe thats why my body allows me to safely enjoy some REAL cheese...

Same as when people say chocolate is extremely toxic, heh...come on, is having a small glass of red wine every week also toxic and an occasional beer, again just too much paranoia. Its only toxic if you poisoned your liver with alcohol. All you need to do is have some sense, milk was in no way abundant in large amounts naturally, so eat it is very small amount and enjoy. Sorry to rant... but that just what I assume/conclude, that people that have problems with dairy are the ones that poisoned themselves too much with in the first place, and their body can handle it no more. Yep, you used up all your life's allowed dairy credits by the time you were like 20 by bombarding yourself with shitty dairy, now you ran out of dairy credits, you are a recovering dairy-holic and can no longer have some...thats how it sadly goes.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: Hannibal on October 20, 2010, 03:58:12 pm
Erm...I am no scientist but...isn't serum albumin extremely abundant in all mammalian blood too?
Yes, it is.
Maybe that's why Jews and Muslims are forbidden to drink it.
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And isn't lactoglobulin and lactalbumin not present in aged cheese which is also lactose free?? But even then who cares becaus
Yes it is.
That's why even very old cheese is allergic to lots of people (usually they don't even realize it)
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Like drinking a glass of milk every day is NOT equal to having a small amount of cheese twice a week...or am I totally delirious here.
I agree.
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Most people can consume nightshades without problems just not too much of them.
How do you know that? Maybe there aren't any problems right away, 'cause they can accumulate over many months or even years.
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Oh and I know someone is going to say well thats because dairy problems is the most common complain on RAF - well its the most common problem because a lot of people gorge on too much of it, duh! If people gorged on nut butter, or fresh squeezed tomato juice by the gallon you'll also have complaints, but people find it easier to gorge on milk and cream. That they do.
That's how it works, yuli. If you can eat one cookie, one little chocolate that you're a lucky girl. :)
A vast majoraty of people cannot eat only one of such dogdy foods - when they try it they gorge on lots of it and in the end are sick.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: yuli on October 20, 2010, 04:32:48 pm
A vast majoraty of people cannot eat only one of such dogdy foods - when they try it they gorge on lots of it and in the end are sick.

Yeah and its because of their stupidity/ignorance or the stupidity/ignorance of how they were raised, I wasn't raised on junk so I learned to eat a little of it never gorge...and now these people make us think a little dairy is poison, no its only poison once you poisoned yourself with it in the first place. If you eat it carefully and don't poison yourself at a young age then guess what, you wont get allergies or get poisoned later in life. Its now clear that people who have problems with a tiny bit of dairy (or other dodgy foods) are the ones that screwed up their body with it in the first place (or some other part of their very SAD previous diet). But in no way should these people claim that dairy is bad, that tomatoes are bad, that nuts are bad, that fructose is bad, its only the problem with their body, and the fact that their eating was out of control. And now they can no longer have it at all.

Maybe that's why Jews and Muslims are forbidden to drink it.

Huh what does religion have to do with basic dietary needs, most of dietary rules due to religion don't make too much sense  :P

Cause they can accumulate over many months or even years.

Things like that only accumulate when you allow them by poisoning yourself with too much of it on REGULAR basis in the first place. If you eat them in correct amounts your whole life it won't be allowed to accumulate. Cookies don't accumulate in your body, if I eat a cookie now, and then eat another one in a month or two, nothing will accumulate or poison me really. And certain foods can have different levels/speeds of accumulation as is obvious. However if I ate cookies every day when I was a kid, I'd probably not be able eat one anymore (not that I even wanna eat one I'd rather have a piece of cheese, more nutritious and better taste and its not baked/heated so much)

If you eat a diet that provides you with good nutrition then you will never want to gorge on things in the first place, if you keep gorging you will fuck it up for yourself for probably the rest of your life. If you eat it as a treat you can enjoy it the rest of your life, and nothing will poison you without realizing it, I have eaten too much nuts a few times, too much fruits a few times, too much cheese on rare occasions and guess what I sure as hell REALIZED it, when you are healthy and on a clean diet you sure realize when you're eating too much of something. And if you have developed an allergy because you didn't realize before you were having too much consistently for a long time, then even a bit will be too much because now your body will tell you the hard way and make you realize it right away.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: TylerDurden on October 20, 2010, 05:06:06 pm
The above assertion is just a load of b*ll*cks. There are actually people, as I explained previously, who developed problems from raw dairy, either as soon as they were born or very early in life. So, this credits nonsense makes no sense. Besides, when so many people have problems with different kinds of aspects of raw dairy(lactose/casein/hormones/calcium:magnesium ratio etc. etc.) it is pretty clear that raw dairy is a harmful food, all in all. Sure, a very few people might be 100 percent immune to raw dairy in all respects, but that does not in itself make it an ideal food even for them.

I should add that I had various problems with raw dairy early on in life, despite the fact that my mother fed me on a reasonably healthy(if only by cooked diet standards diet). That is, a semi-WAPF diet with lots of cooked wild game, organ-meats, no pizzas or french fries or whatever nonsense - I only got into junk food diets well after experiencing problems with raw and pasteurised dairy. The only error I made was that I honestly believed the lies doctors told re the supposed benefits of dairy for children, so it took me a while to work out what my issues were re ill-health.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: Hannibal on October 20, 2010, 06:01:04 pm
If you eat it carefully and don't poison yourself at a young age then guess what, you wont get allergies or get poisoned later in life.
You are wrong. :)
There're lots of people who had been raised in a healthy way, had been given healthy foods and later when they begun some junk foods they were gorging on them exactly the same way as people who had eaten them in their childhood. Example? Annabella Piugattuk
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Huh what does religion have to do with basic dietary needs, most of dietary rules due to religion don't make too much sense  :P
Some of them do make sense - e.g. eating sheep and goats and not eating pigs - the latter are definitely more prone to eat "shit food".
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: yuli on October 20, 2010, 06:13:32 pm





The above assertion is just a load of b*ll*cks.

You always say that when any assertion towards dairy is made thats not negative, and why did you sensor the word bollocks lol  :P

There are actually people, as I explained previously, who developed problems from raw dairy, either as soon as they were born or very early in life.

Thats because A. babies and children are extra sensitive to dairy especially the pasteurized one...B. Mothers that feed milk formula to babies and kids poison them very quickly.... C. Parents think its healthy to give children LOTS of milk to their kids and again that will make them have problems... D...Kids develop all sorts of problems early in life because of fuck-ups by their parents and other weird reasons. Like there is kids that are allergic to everything, yes EVERYTHING. So what...Young people also develop same problems when they gorge on junk and pasteurized dairy...that is very evident indeed.

So, this credits nonsense makes no sense.

Thats because you don't want it to make sense. Yes whatever I wrote makes absolutely zero sense, thats right, because it can't possibly make sense if dairy is not everyones poison.

Sure, a very few people might be 100 percent immune to raw dairy in all respects, but that does not in itself make it an ideal food even for them.

No, thats not what I said, the opposite, zero people are 100% immune to dairy, they just didn't eat it a lot and don't know that so they think they are immune, but in fact they are just eating it in moderation. Nothing but perhaps the most perfect natural whole meat of a complete and healthiest animal and all its parts is an ideal food, but other foods can still be eaten in their allowed quantities, which differ for various people.

I should add that I had various problems with raw dairy early on in life...

Yes early in life is a sensitive time...people that don't too often eat dairy early in life mostly won't develop those problems. People early in life should also not have regular beer, or smoke some weed, or experiment with LSD, or watch porn (lol) but later in life when they learn proper control they can do it safely and without problems, well some can and some can't and the ones that can't should avoid it altogether.

I only got into junk food diets well after experiencing problems with raw and pasteurised dairy.

Yes and let me guess you gorged on pasteurized dairy, chips, fries and candy bars to the point you were sick...people develop all sorts of problems this way, you know that. Its common that once you start over-consuming one junk food you will move on to others.

The only error I made was that I honestly believed the lies doctors told re the supposed benefits of dairy for children, so it took me a while to work out what my issues were re ill-health.

It is partly because of doctors lies and modern methods of food preparation that dairy has become evil, thats not your fault, at least you realized it man! But thats the ONLY error you made? ok....

You are smart guy but repeating the same thing will not make people avoid dairy. What I was trying to do was state the fact that the more dairy you consume the more likely you are to be poisoned by it, but apparently thats bullocks for everyone because everyone is just like you Tyler, and everyone experienced the exact same things and had the exact same things when growing up. You're being grumpy-wumpy, can't you let people enjoy an occasional serving of quality raw dairy without the thought that they are killing themselves, they are no more killing themselves then eating the occasional piece of cooked meat or having some occasional red wine (instead they should be aware of overconsumption). I don't know about others, but this diet makes me way more aware of overconsumption then before, cool!
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: yuli on October 20, 2010, 06:25:52 pm
There're lots of people who had been raised in a healthy way, had been given healthy foods and later when they begun some junk foods they were gorging on them exactly the same way as people who had eaten them in their childhood.

Yeah I know there are people like that, that they started gorging on junk foods for whatever reason, there is so many reasons why people go down that path, and it always fucks them up. But that still doesn't prove that having an occasional raw dairy treat without ever gorging will poison you, that if for all my adult life, I had a small piece of quality raw cheese once a week, or twice a week (without ever having been poisoned or overindulged in dairy before), I would be poisoned and my bones will be brittle if I have a healthy diet for that whole time, is there a study like that....no of course not, everything has to be frikkin extreme, black and white, good and bad, never gray...that is why everyone is panicking about dairy and everything else, that is why people on this forum will have the same pointless dairy discussion millions of times - studies either say YES EAT LOTS....or NO DON'T EAT ANY!!!! Its stupid....
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: Hannibal on October 20, 2010, 06:47:21 pm
But that still doesn't prove that having an occasional raw dairy treat without ever gorging will poison you
Of course not.
But couple of months ago, probably in June, I ate some raw butter and next day when I was working on my meadow I had a hay fever (I've got allergy towards grass). Not eating any dairy results in the lack of symptoms of my allergy. That's so simple.
It isn't poisonous, for sure, but the life is less comfortable.
Eating zero neolithic foods, zero dairy, makes my life much more better. :)
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: TylerDurden on October 20, 2010, 06:50:57 pm
The above is, as before , nonsense. After all, it is not just babies who are particularly susceptible to raw dairy but adults too, even those who did not indulge in junk foods. I am thinking of those with genetic dieseases like galactosemia, among many others.  The idea that raw dairy allergies can solely be explained by the previous eating of junk foods or the overeating of raw or pasteurised dairy is just  ridiculous, therefore.

For the record, I was given raw buffalo milk as a child, and not in vast quantities at all.


As far as raw dairy is concerned, many people experience negative symptoms from it immediattely  as soon as they drink even a tiny bit. I get euphoric soon afterwards, plus experience frequent urination ( or chronic constipation in the case of raw cheese).
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: yuli on October 20, 2010, 07:27:36 pm
I am thinking of those with genetic dieseases like galactosemia, among many others.  The idea that raw dairy allergies can solely be explained by the previous eating of junk foods or the overeating of raw or pasteurised dairy is just  ridiculous, therefore.

Well I was thinking of people with no genetic diseases that I can't pronounce or other problems whatsoever, no allergies or weird problems, what about these people, or do these people not count because they are not special....if they enjoy things occasionally without gorging, things like raw dairy, they can do so until very old age with out problems if they do it right, is that so hard to imagine or even just consider, considering they eat a very healthy diet and are healthy physically.

Stop putting words in my mouth, I never said that dairy allergies are SOLELY explained by previous eating of junk food, some people just have certain problems and can't eat things, so what! Like I said kids are born and have unexplained allergies, many things can affect your ability to eat something, humans don't completely understand everything and that is evident.

I experienced no negative effects from the occasional eating of raw dairy, just like I experience no negative effects from having some occasional glass of wine or piece of cooked meat (on a daily basis it is problematic obviously), I don't wake up with a hangover, I don't keep urinating, and it does not make me euphoric. Period.
I do experience negative effects from eating bread, pastries or processed foods, and after realizing that I no longer even think of eating them, and have lost all my craving for these foods, never mind gorging on them. I do experience positive effects from eating a diet high in raw meats.

Not everything is black and white, good and evil, things a little more complex then that.

But couple of months ago, probably in June, I ate some raw butter and next day when I was working on my meadow I had a hay fever (I've got allergy towards grass). Not eating any dairy results in the lack of symptoms of my allergy. That's so simple.
It isn't poisonous, for sure, but the life is less comfortable.
Eating zero neolithic foods, zero dairy, makes my life much more better. :)

If you can control allergies using a healthy and superior diet then thats awesome! I have never had any allergy to anything, all my problems that I was particularly annoyed with (sluggish digestion, being tired/low energy after eating, sugar cravings, being too hungry and occasional pimples) have been completely fixed by eliminating a cooked diet and grains, and that made my life better. Why should I completely remove dairy if its not causing me problems and I never want to gorge on it (I never gorged on it in any point in my life, except when I used to eat an occasional large amount of ice cream, which my body would make me regurgitate 2 minutes later), just because that has helped other people, that not a good reason for me. If I had allergies and problems after this, then I will try removing further things from my diet. I doubt that removing my occasional consumption of small amounts of dairy will will fix.....fix what? Besides exercising more and getting more muscles I don't want to fix anything else currently (at least not diet-wise), and exercising and gaining muscle is not in any way impeded by my occasional cheese treat thats for sure.

Anyways I am sick of this dairy argument, this is becoming like "mental masturbation" rather then discussion, eat a little or don't eat it, I think thats something that at least some people should be able figure out on their own, especially when they are at the point that they are successfully eating a diet of raw meat....
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: cliff on October 20, 2010, 09:13:49 pm
My brother and I drink a decent amount of milk and eat plenty of butter.  I have removed milk and dairy from my diet many times and re added it many times, often for up to years at a time.  I have never experienced addiction to dairy, when I was vegan I really wanted cheese but I also really wanted hamburgers and other treats.  I consume dairy in the quantities I do because it is affordable and keeps me healthy, I've done tons of experimentation with diet and I still continue to experiment.  So far dairy has treated me very good.

From what I've read regarding other peoples trials with dairy I'm one of the lucky ones.
(http://strat.in/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/xmen.jpg)
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: ster546464@yahoo.co.uk on October 20, 2010, 11:18:42 pm
all dairy from New Zealand, unless you live there, is pasteurised for sale in other countries.

The dairy in the experiment with the mice, was , on assumption was, pasteurised milk.

Raw milk can only be bought from a local farm etc, rarely shop brought.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: michaelwh on October 21, 2010, 07:21:13 am
I added raw milk to my raw paleo/primal diet this past spring. I buy 12 litres a week. I find it very beneficial, and don't experience any negative effects.

I think that in general, raw milk is a beneficial food for adult mammals, and that adult mammals who can't tolerate raw milk are the exception, not the rule. I know that such a view won't be very popular here. I came to it after thinking about the Pottenger cat feeding experiment, which demonstrates that raw milk has no negative effects on cats:

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/primal-diet/av-on-radio-on-the-web-link/msg43742/#msg43742

Tyler says that Pottenger can't be trusted. I'd be interested to know what others think.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: TylerDurden on October 21, 2010, 07:56:40 am
Beyondveg.com has cited certain problems with the Pottenger study.More to the point, Pottenger's study did not attempt to determine if cats fed on raw meats but no raw dairy were healthier than cats fed on raw meats plus raw dairy.In other words, the studies were deliberately biased in order to make raw dairy seem a healthy food for humans. Not only did the study NOT prove that raw dairy was as good as raw meats for cats, but it also failed to prove that raw dairy was good for humans, given no human test subjects involved.

Also, the whole point of raw dairy is that it is species-specific. So, raw human mothers milk contains substances needed by human babies that no other milk has, while raw cows' milk is designed to help baby calves grow to adulthood within 2 years and so on. So, other kinds of raw milk invariably create problems for other species as a whole.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: ForTheHunt on October 21, 2010, 08:19:48 am
I added raw milk to my raw paleo/primal diet this past spring. I buy 12 litres a week. I find it very beneficial, and don't experience any negative effects.

I think that in general, raw milk is a beneficial food for adult mammals, and that adult mammals who can't tolerate raw milk are the exception, not the rule. I know that such a view won't be very popular here. I came to it after thinking about the Pottenger cat feeding experiment, which demonstrates that raw milk has no negative effects on cats:

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/primal-diet/av-on-radio-on-the-web-link/msg43742/#msg43742

Tyler says that Pottenger can't be trusted. I'd be interested to know what others think.

That's an interesting take, the theory that bodies with problems can't handle milk.

Me and another member couldn't stand milk (Swollen lymph nodes, ears getting stuffy, immediately after drinking dairy) then in both cases we did a long fast which improved our health greatly, and after that had NO problems what so ever with milk.

In fact I think I've drunk around 2-3 liters of milk today and I feel smashing.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: klowcarb on October 21, 2010, 08:34:56 am
I heart butter :).
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: TylerDurden on October 21, 2010, 03:15:02 pm
I should have put this thread in hot topics long ago. Done so now.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: Laddox on October 21, 2010, 04:25:16 pm
Wow, got a little hot around here since i last posted....  8)

I only go through 2 litres every 4 days or so, so i don't think that is overdoing it....but i think i may cut it out for a month or 2
 (after reading all the 'hoo harr' earlier on in this thread) and see how that feels.

The milk is from jersey cows, and tastes pretty dam good. I eat the shit out of raw butter too, so maybe my total load of dairy is getting up there..? 
I also get a bit of no salt added raw goats cheese, which i hook into a bit ....hmmmm

I do crave dairy, so maybe there is a connection with some of the constipation i've been having on and off of late.

Forthehunt How long did you fast for?? , and how did you break you're fast? Juices? milk? ha ha ...
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: Hannibal on October 21, 2010, 05:15:08 pm
I do crave dairy, so maybe there is a connection with some of the constipation i've been having on and off of late. 
Aajonus said that in order to prevent constipation it's good to add equal amount of butter to the cheese that some eats.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: yuli on October 21, 2010, 05:27:52 pm
Aajonus said that in order to prevent constipation it's good to add equal amount of butter to the cheese that some eats.

But cheese already has so much fat in it... ???
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: Laddox on October 21, 2010, 05:30:19 pm
Aajonus said that in order to prevent constipation it's good to add equal amount of butter to the cheese that some eats.


Yeah, i got his books and i was doing that....plenty of each. But i still get the odd bout of constipation....sort of every 3rd or 4th BM.
I'm sure there is something i'm having too much/little of.....just gotta find it. I have noticed i don't have as many BM's as when i was on standard Aussie diet, which i think Lex explained in another thread....
 I'm pretty new to the raw primal/paleo thing so i guess i'm still experimenting/refining things that do and don't work for my system.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: Hannibal on October 21, 2010, 05:32:25 pm
But cheese already has so much fat in it... ???
Probably too little. Adding extra amount of butter is helpful.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: ForTheHunt on October 21, 2010, 09:55:42 pm
Wow, got a little hot around here since i last posted....  8)

I only go through 2 litres every 4 days or so, so i don't think that is overdoing it....but i think i may cut it out for a month or 2
 (after reading all the 'hoo harr' earlier on in this thread) and see how that feels.

The milk is from jersey cows, and tastes pretty dam good. I eat the shit out of raw butter too, so maybe my total load of dairy is getting up there..? 
I also get a bit of no salt added raw goats cheese, which i hook into a bit ....hmmmm

I do crave dairy, so maybe there is a connection with some of the constipation i've been having on and off of late.

Forthehunt How long did you fast for?? , and how did you break you're fast? Juices? milk? ha ha ...

I've done multiple fasts. My longest one on nothing but water was for 12 days. Very beneficial but too long. I don't recommend fasting longer than 4-6 days actually.

The fast I'm talking about was a 5 day apple and applecider vinegar fast. Also very beneficial for my health.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: raw-al on October 21, 2010, 10:58:30 pm
I've done multiple fasts. My longest one on nothing but water was for 12 days. Very beneficial but too long. I don't recommend fasting longer than 4-6 days actually.

The fast I'm talking about was a 5 day apple and applecider vinegar fast. Also very beneficial for my health.
Out of curiosity would you consider yourself to be one who gains weight easily?
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: ForTheHunt on October 21, 2010, 11:09:25 pm
Out of curiosity would you consider yourself to be one who gains weight easily?


Yes and no. On RPD I don't gain weight easely. But I'm starting to think that's the way nature intended it.

On a grain SAD diet I can gain weight and muscle mass fairly adequately. Why do you ask?
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: miles on October 22, 2010, 01:10:30 am
If by constipation you mean discomfort/bloating etc then I'd think increasing fat is more likely to exacerbate it.
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: yuli on October 22, 2010, 01:17:01 am
If you're getting bloated (or constantly constipated) by something do NOT eat it (I thought we learned that from SAD guys)...I think eating something that bloats you with tons of butter is just masking the problem, bad bad bad. So if dairy is bloating and constipating you, you're either:
A) Eating too much of it
B) Should not be eating it at all
Title: Re: Raw Dairy? Who embraces it?
Post by: Hannibal on October 22, 2010, 03:29:05 am
So if dairy is bloating and constipating you, you're either:
A) Eating too much of it
B) Should not be eating it at all
That's very true.
One point I would add is too little pectins from fruits, which are the best kind of fiber for proper digestion.