Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum

Other Raw-Animal-Food Diets (eg:- Primal Diet/Raw Version of Weston-Price Diet etc.) => Primal Diet => Topic started by: galaxy on February 08, 2013, 08:40:44 am

Title: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: galaxy on February 08, 2013, 08:40:44 am
I was enjoying the aajonus diet eating steak tartare and sushi for several months but then I tried raw chicken. I got the most pure chicken I could find but after a couple of days I developed heavy diarrhea that lasted for 2 months. I went to the  doctor who ran tests and said it was campylobacter (exactly what MDs say you will get if you eat raw chicken). Aajonus writes in his books that bacteria on food can at most give you a few days of diarrhea but this is not what I seem to have found out.

Can anyone here who understands his theories help me to understand why I should not believe what government agencies say about cooking poultry in order to avoid food poisoning? From what happened to me it seems that they are completely right on that count (I know that they are wrong on most counts, but I'm listening on this one).

My health background is that I suffer from severe fatigue but have no other diagnosed conditions.
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: TylerDurden on February 08, 2013, 05:49:01 pm
Most chicken are grainfed, no matter how "organic" they may be. Grainfed chicken is to be avoided, even if raw.
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: Iguana on February 08, 2013, 05:51:14 pm
I got the most pure chicken I could find

What do you mean by that?

Quote
Can anyone here who understands his theories help me to understand why I should not believe what government agencies say about cooking poultry in order to avoid food poisoning? From what happened to me it seems that they are completely right on that count (I know that they are wrong on most counts, but I'm listening on this one).

Of course they are right; all farmed poultry is noxious and dangerous raw, unless it's been grown by ourselves without any soy, wheat, heated food,  cooked leftovers, etc.

Most chicken are grainfed, no matter how "organic" they may be. Grainfed chicken is to be avoided, even if raw.

I feed some raw and soaked grain such as millet and oat to mine, it's no problem. Birds are grain eaters, unlike mammals. 
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: Eric on February 08, 2013, 10:30:00 pm
One of Aajonus' greatest flaws it that he assumes what works for him will work equally well for everyone else. He's been eating raw for decades and has endured his share of bouts with food poisoning. He's probably suffered exactly the symptoms you did at various points in the past. He's been on his diet long enough though that his gastrointestinal microbial community is quite healthy now, so he can eat contaminated meat and not suffer ill effects because his gut flora and fauna outcompete the pathogens.

For newcomers to a diet that includes raw animal foods, choosing healthy animals raised in hygienic conditions is incredibly important. When I started I limited my raw animal food consumption to ruminants (cow, sheep, goat, deer, etc.) and avoided animals that were fed grain or that were omnivores (no pig, turkey, chicken, etc.). That worked very well for me, as I've been doing this since 2003 and have never suffered any symptoms of food poisoning resulting from eating raw animal foods. I still won't touch raw commercially raised poultry, and don't eat pig at all, regardless of whether its raw or cooked or how well it was raised.
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: galaxy on February 08, 2013, 11:43:32 pm
The chicken I had said it was organic and air chilled and was fed corn and soy.

I understand that this is not the ideal diet for a chicken that a human will consume, but I have never been able to find a chicken anywhere that was raised for sale that was purely left to its own devices in a pasture that was not given grain (and I have tried hard).

I recently found a new farmer at my local farmer's market who only processes about 200 at a time. It is a small operation of just him and his wife and the fat on the chickens is a beautiful golden color but even they are fed grain at night, even though they can roam a pasture during the day.

Unless you guys know anywhere I can order perfect chickens from, or unless I start my own farm, it looks like chicken is off the menu. Aaajonus might be able to afford 2 months of diarrhea shooting out of him as he dances around with coyotes and wolves but I live in the real world and can not.
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: TylerDurden on February 09, 2013, 12:26:12 am

I feed some raw and soaked grain such as millet and oat to mine, it's no problem. Birds are grain eaters, unlike mammals. 
I was referring to the chicken being raw, not the raw grains. Even so, wild jungle fowl only ate small amounts of raw grains in the wild, mostly they ate carrion, worms etc.
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: Iguana on February 09, 2013, 02:19:18 am
The chicken I had said it was organic and air chilled and was fed corn and soy.
Corn and soy are no good, having been subject to intense artificial selection and have been proven to cause trouble when eaten in significant amounts . Plus they are most of the time hot dried, organic or not. Not all the grains are equally troublesome ; wheat is the worst and should be completely excluded, soy probably too.

Yes, we'd better avoid chicken if we don't have a totally reliable source.
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: LePatron7 on February 09, 2013, 04:31:32 am
One of Aajonus' greatest flaws it that he assumes what works for him will work equally well for everyone else.

Agreed.

The chicken I had said it was organic and air chilled and was fed corn and soy.

That's the problem. Also partially that chicken is hard for some people no matter how long they've been raw. If you do a search on this forum there's a post showing a bunch of members getting upset stomach from chicken (can't find it though).

For newcomers to a diet that includes raw animal foods, choosing healthy animals raised in hygienic conditions is incredibly important. When I started I limited my raw animal food consumption to ruminants (cow, sheep, goat, deer, etc.) and avoided animals that were fed grain or that were omnivores (no pig, turkey, chicken, etc.). That worked very well for me, as I've been doing this since 2003 and have never suffered any symptoms of food poisoning resulting from eating raw animal foods. I still won't touch raw commercially raised poultry, and don't eat pig at all, regardless of whether its raw or cooked or how well it was raised.

That's sound advice, and typically what I do as well. I had a brief (once) I tried pork, never again. I also only eat grass fed animals, like you mentioned. Along with some wild caught fish.
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: goodsamaritan on February 09, 2013, 05:57:30 am
I've had bad experiences with chicken I did not raise myself.

The chickens we raise ourselves eat what's in the garden, the grubs in our trash and our fruit peelings and other left overs.

With chickens I do not raise ourselves I found Pamora Farms reliable and tasty.  Even eating their raw livers.

http://www.pamorafarm.com/index (http://www.pamorafarm.com/index)

(I only eat chicken maybe 2 to 3 times a year.)
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: Bacchal on February 10, 2013, 02:55:39 pm
Aaajonus might be able to afford 2 months of diarrhea shooting out of him as he dances around with coyotes and wolves but I live in the real world and can not.

;D

Sorry about your bout with gut distress. I'm familiar with the campylobacter experience. It lasted about a week and wasn't fun. I would definitely focus on ruminants as your go-to meats.
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: galaxy on February 14, 2013, 11:35:00 am
As far as I can recall Aajonus's books do not go to noticeable lengths in advising the reader to be careful about their source of animal flesh. From reading them you might think it's ok to go down to your local Wal Mart and buy some Tyson chicken then rip off the cellophane and gobble it from the styrofoam tray.

I nonetheless took the best precautions I could and bought the best stuff I could find according to what I knew at the time.

Based on what multiple people have posted in these forums, the reality about eating some forms of raw flesh seems to be different from the theory that is presented in Aajonus's books.
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: Eric on February 15, 2013, 12:59:23 am
Aajonus severely underemphasizes the need for high quality foods, in my opinion. It's easy for me to imagine how his books inadvertently lead to many cases of food poisoning.
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: galaxy on February 15, 2013, 10:46:16 am
To give Aajonus the benefit of the doubt, I wonder if it's not the case that getting "food poisoning" is actually an extreme healing crisis and that ingesting the "pathogenic" bacteria, although no fun in the short run, actually helps you by cleaning up diseased tissue.

I might actually buy into that if his books contained any hard references but they don't. What do you guys think? I remain doubtful since I can't find any other sources making the same claims, and although it all sounds good in theory it's no fun to experience it firsthand. Especially when you don't know if it is in fact a "healing crisis" or just the sickness that the FDA warned you about all along.
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: LePatron7 on February 16, 2013, 03:41:51 am
To give Aajonus the benefit of the doubt, I wonder if it's not the case that getting "food poisoning" is actually an extreme healing crisis and that ingesting the "pathogenic" bacteria, although no fun in the short run, actually helps you by cleaning up diseased tissue.

Dude. I don't care what anyone says. Diarrhea, vomitting, upset stomach, nauseousness - none of that is a "normal" process of detoxification.

When you stop eating junk foods and start eating raw foods, your body knows how to rebuild itself without the food poisoning symptoms.

On my transition to raw foods, I've never had any problems. Except for the few instances where I added a new food and it gave me problems.

For example, "cleaned" raw eggs are fine for me. I've been eating them for the longest. But "dirty/uncleaned" chicken eggs give me the shits, vomiting, the works.

Same thing with brain. I can eat up to 5 oz before I start getting the shits.

But GF chuck roast, I can eat every day with 1 oz of suet without problems. Same thing with marrow bones.

I personally don't buy into AV's nonsense. He's just trying to make money. That's why when he's in Ft Lauderdale in March I'm not going. You get one hour free, then it's $105, after that like $300. The guys making a fortune. He's also full of it. He (most likely) didn't have any of those health problems. If he did, he'd get the records and release them to the public to prove it. He's said it's up to the person who wants to know to get the info from the hospitals. But the fact is we can't get other people's health records due to HIPAA privacy laws.
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: eveheart on February 16, 2013, 04:27:50 am
He's also full of it.

Aajonus' book We Want To Live was the first book I ever read that addressed eating raw meat. I felt so much better within two days that people at work could see the difference just by looking in my face. From AV, I got the idea to eat raw meat, so I owe him a nod; however, none of his other concepts (like raw milk and juicing) do anything for me. When I tried raw milk, including raw goats milk kefir, I got sick in a way that didn't feel healing at all. I percieve AV as a "shock jock" with a bit of a good message packaged in a lot of PR insanity.

I follow my own body's guidance, and I recommend this method to everybody. This forum suggests many reasonable things to try, but in the final analysis, your own results are your guides because nobody else's body is like your own.
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: jessica on February 16, 2013, 08:17:53 am
i love poop covered chicken eggs........THE MOST!
not joking really, i have this weird relationship with chicken poo
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: van on February 16, 2013, 11:30:09 am
Since I just eat the yolks,  I crack them by the sink and running water, and rinse in the water and shift hands holding the yolk separating it from the white...  Much easier than washing them off all the time.  That is unless you've got a thing for poo   lol
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: galaxy on February 17, 2013, 02:03:40 am
Poop on eggs is a great sign. Means they haven't been washed and still have their natural antibacterial coating intact.
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: galaxy on February 17, 2013, 02:04:55 am
Well, to wrap this thread up here I am on Aajonus Vonderplanitz's own forum and it doesn't look like anyone really supports his point of view on raw poultry. I don't think he should be presenting himself as an authority and telling people to eat raw chicken in his books without also realistically warning them about the danger of food poisoning and how to minimize the risk. Beef and fish might not be that big of a deal but chicken definitely is.
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: LePatron7 on February 20, 2013, 04:53:28 am
Poop on eggs is a great sign. Means they haven't been washed and still have their natural antibacterial coating intact.

Right that was my understanding as well. But after the massive shits and vomiting I had, I think it's best to a) get them cleaned or b) clean them before eating them.

Well, to wrap this thread up here I am on Aajonus Vonderplanitz's own forum and it doesn't look like anyone really supports his point of view on raw poultry. I don't think he should be presenting himself as an authority and telling people to eat raw chicken in his books without also realistically warning them about the danger of food poisoning and how to minimize the risk. Beef and fish might not be that big of a deal but chicken definitely is.

yeah, bummer that you had to go through that. But at least now you know.
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: svrn on March 08, 2013, 01:42:52 pm
I eat raw chicken all the time. They say that they are not fed any grain but maybe they are fed a little. I also eat raw pork regularly that is also supposedly not fed any grain.

I never have problems with either.

From my experience, although i didnt think so in the beginning, the more i am on this diet the more I agree with almost everything aajonus has to say.
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: FRANCIS HOWARD BOND on November 29, 2014, 06:38:23 am
“People are being sold chickens with potentially lethal levels of bacteria, but not enough is happening to clean up this scandal.    With around 100 deaths a year are linked to Campylobacter, we're calling for the food industry to make chicken safe”.   Chickens are currently being sold in UK supermarkets with potentially hazardous levels of this bacteria.   How can we be sure it is safe to eat such chicken completely raw?    I have eaten a lot of supermarket chicken raw recently without any problems, so do not know if the risk is significant?   Any suggestions?
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: Brad462 on November 29, 2014, 06:46:39 am
By supermarket meat I assume that you mean grain fed?  Yeah, I wouldn't eat any raw meat that isn't grassfed and hormone free.
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: TylerDurden on November 29, 2014, 08:25:01 am
Chicken, unless specifically stated as being "pastured"(ie "grassfed) is always grainfed. Avoid like the plague.
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: eveheart on November 30, 2014, 12:33:36 am
Chicken, unless specifically stated as being "pastured"(ie "grassfed) is always grainfed. Avoid like the plague.

In the US, there is no official definition of pastured.

In California, pastured chicken have access to the outdoors. The outdoors, in this case, can be a small door in the CAFO building, but the building may be too large for each chicken to be near enough to a door to go out. In addition, the outdoor area may be a dirt-floored pen. The original meaning of pasture ("land covered with grass and other low plants suitable for grazing animals, especially cattle or sheep") is completely lost.

I bought real pastured chicken only once. I visited the Saladin-style ranch and saw chickens in a real pasture! The downside was that each chicken cost over $30, and the farm was a 2-hour drive from my house. My bird was killed to order. It tasted like sashimi - very good!

If you buy organic pastured chicken in California, the chicken will have been fed non-GMO organic grains. In other US states, check your local situation, since there is no federal law about chickens.
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: TylerDurden on November 30, 2014, 06:18:05 am
Thanks, Eveheart, I had been told previously that "pastured" really did mean primarily grassfed with no or hardly any grains.
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: Brad462 on November 30, 2014, 06:46:46 am
Eating poultry can be risky - cooked or raw.  The only time in my life that I have gotten food poisoning was from inproperly prepared (cooked)poultry on thanksgiving day.  Kind of a lame story I guess...
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: eveheart on November 30, 2014, 07:31:01 am
Thanks, Eveheart, I had been told previously that "pastured" really did mean primarily grassfed with no or hardly any grains.

Pastured should mean something that has to do with a pasture, but American capitalists make sure that the GDP is more important than doing what's right. Poultry business will look you in the eye and tell you that land prices are too high to raise chickens on it.
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: reyyzl on October 13, 2017, 06:19:18 pm
https://www.wewant2live.com/why-is-aajonus-so-concerned-about-toxicity-in-commercial-chickens-and-eggs/ (https://www.wewant2live.com/why-is-aajonus-so-concerned-about-toxicity-in-commercial-chickens-and-eggs/)

In the back of the We Want to Live book there was always the list you could order of sources for all the food that aajonus checked out personally. It was regularly updated. Now that aajonus is gone, it might not be there. But you could ask Jim on the site.

I was scared trying poultry the first time. I got the best source i could. It was obviously grainfed though. I've eaten it many times since. The best tasting chicken is when you get it fresh slaughtered & it was raised in a pasture with the roosters. It can be given some feed, but make sure it's WAPF approved feed & that it has no soy. You'll taste the difference.

As for food poisoning, I know a couple people who say they've gotten detox from chicken. Myself, I've never gotten a loose stool or anything from raw chicken. Perhaps my body like campylobacteria & so does the rest of the people I know who eat it. Just ate a bunch of chicken high meat today. Maybe you need the bacteria, like some people do well on kefir but not milk. I've seen those who do great on high eggs, but not as well on fresh egg (raw all).

As for science, what do you think of the info in aajonus' 2002 book Recipes for Living without Disease?
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: birdy on March 13, 2019, 11:54:15 am
so, just because a chicken is "pasture raised", that doesn't mean it isnt also being fed corn and soy?
damn, I hope I didnt get any serious bad bacteria. I ate semi-raw chicken twice the last few days and my stomach has been feeling a bit upset and I'm nauseous. I thought this was mainly because of the newly introduced raw foods and change to keto in general.
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: Kaaris on March 14, 2019, 03:54:21 pm
I might’ve contracted campylobacter inadvertently from eating raw chicken liver. Got one of those “pastured raised”, vegetarian fed chicken. It turns out the words “organic” soy feed and grains came up  when I went to the purveyor’s  website to check what they fed the chicken. Very upsetting. Always check your food sources, especially poultry. As far as eggs, the only ones I recommend are Eben-Haezar’s Happy Hens. They explicitly stamped on the package that their vhvicken weren’t fed neither soy nor grains.
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: FRANCIS HOWARD BOND on March 14, 2019, 05:25:44 pm
Back in 1991 had very severe upset after eating raw chicken and was very ill for several weeks.   Doctor diagnosed Yersina E Coli, which is very bad.   After antibiotics I recovered, and never had a problem so severe again.   Have eaten lots of raw chicken and raw turkey at Christmas and no problems at all.    This includes, presumably grain fed, chicken from the supermarket.    Glad I was able to force myself back to raw chicken as it has a distinct taste and is really great!    I think it is possible to develop a level of immunity through a bad experience, but would not want to wish this on anyone else.   Take care and enjoy yourself.
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: birdy on March 14, 2019, 10:41:56 pm
Any suggestions on how to consume organic chicken liver then? I've been trying to find out what they feed them - all I've come across is that they are pasure-raised and fed "high quality organic food".
I was planning to eat it raw but am unsure now. Would it be ok to just sear it on the outside or heat it lightly, or should I rather cook it completely? I've read somewhere that partial-cooking can be even worse?
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: FRANCIS HOWARD BOND on March 15, 2019, 12:36:37 am
My understanding is that partial cooking can be like re-heating cooked food which we are definitely not encouraged to do.   Depending on the temperature achieved, any bacteria can flourish while the food remains largely uncooked.   Possibly chicken in particular needs cautious handling.
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: PaganGoy on March 22, 2019, 02:09:04 am
Take my advice, don't cook the chicken you will only fuck yourself up 1#

2# make sure to get with at least a maximum soy diet percentage of only 35% the less soy the better.

Bacteria is NEVER the cause of disease however accelerated detoxification of cooked meat can occur if you half cook the chicken.
Just don't cook it, better yet don't cook anything.  Even inhaling something cooking causes cancerous tissue buildup.
The world elites don't cook food, why should you?
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: common_sense on April 13, 2019, 05:31:55 am
Everyone is talking about how the chicken was fed, what was fed, but in my opinion, how the chicken was handled is far more important. I ate raw chicken for a while, but I only eat frozen, individually wrapped chicken breast. Never have any problem. It is the process of, the condition of produce, will determine the bacterial level.
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: common_sense on April 13, 2019, 05:32:53 am
frozen, sorry for the typing.
Title: Re: food poisoning from chicken
Post by: FRANCIS HOWARD BOND on April 14, 2019, 05:48:31 am
Agree cooking is responsible for many health problems with Chicken, and careless storage and meat handling conditions for many more.   Chickens need natural environment and appropriate feed, and failings here lead to poor quality, possible contamination, and disease.    This affects flavour and texture of the meat and can also lead to infection and physical illness after eating it.

All things considered, raw chicken can be exceptionally palatable, and should not be overlooked as an enjoyable treat.   Have eaten lots of raw chicken, also raw turkey, and no problems at all.    Liked high raw chicken, with its stronger flavour which improves the longer you keep it, gradually rotting quite tastily.