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Messages - KD

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Welcoming Committee / Re: Hi Guys
« on: September 26, 2011, 05:53:43 am »

being A-OK with transitioning while having realistic longer-term goals is an admirable quality. Statistically people that have a bunch of conviction and rules and methods of which to apply have less percentage of sticking with their approach.

That said particulary with modern pepople with a slew of pre-existing conditions..certain things for sure will have consequences on health that require tweaking: like the macronutrient thing, others..not so much the coffee thing

Particularly when transitioning diets some things are more important than others. if two weeks/months/years or so one had all kinds of articifial foods in their diet, the few grams of non fermenty plant sweeteners, coffee and poor combined foods is not going to be much of an issue in the short term. There is some truth to going off certain foods entirely for periods which can allow for certain healing not present when those foods are eaten sporadically but that doesn't mean that huge health progressions can't be made that way too. For some people, they might find deeper healing without any such 'mishaps', but if one isn't actually doing a healthy diet or lifestyle and just adhering to such rules as being most important then the likelihood is their health will suffer (wondering why or ignoring symptoms and poor health) or they'll go off the diet entirely. Just my take.

General Discussion / Re: The coconut
« on: September 26, 2011, 03:59:15 am »
Raw whole coconut has too much of a laxative effect for me to be able to consume enough of its fat and carbs to give me the maximum benefits that I recieve from eatting the butter. I am very much on board with the philosophy that{ in general} paleo foods in their whole unprocessed state are optimal. But from personal experience I must contend that the coconut butter is better.

(at least for me)

how much is enough? did you have the pecans and raisins waiting to tell you? the durian?

paleo man knew nothing about fats and carbs

or how to open jars

you eat processed food with every meal thus confuse your body when eat whole coconut

Paleo man would buy 5-6 part of a coconut, get diarrhea and throw the rest in the garbage..and then call on the phone and get lean section animals to eat then eat figs. all natural unprocessed and sustainable.

Primal Diet / Re: Thin/Runny Honey Batch (Honey Pacifica)
« on: September 26, 2011, 03:48:16 am »
honey can be certified raw and still be heated...theres quite a few conversations and peoples experiences here that point to that. Someone once supplied some info on why even slight heat is bad for honey..and something about how the bees will fan it if outside natural temp gets even in the 90's. So this anti-raw food adage...that some foods in nature obviously get over 105 etc..apparently does not apply to honeys compassion to some other foods that supposedly hokd up well to higher heats.

Generally best to stick with comb honeys. Its my understanding that honey is difficult to get into containers without heating somewhat and only a few operations are really doing it. The Really Raw brand supposedly is unheated and that seems to be available most places. Never seemed high quality in comparison to the dark comb I get sometimes..but it seems to be fairly solid usually and not runny. If the honey doesn't specifically say unheated, you can rest assured that it is not truly 'raw'...unless its from a local farmer who doesn't label specifics.

Exercise / Bodybuilding / Re: Today's workout?
« on: September 26, 2011, 03:31:18 am »
another 'simple' dumbell routine

All exercises with a 41 lb dumbell:

-as many single arm overhead squats and bicep curls to failure on each arm then:
burpees : 15 x 3
after each set of burpees - as many single arm overhead squats and bicep curls to failure on each arm then:

dumbbell 'swings' with one arm x 15 x 3
after each set of swings - as many single arm overhead squats and bicep curls to failure on each arm


burpees tend to suck a bunch of energy..was panting through alot of this and had to take a few short breaks more than the usual
16 min.

did roughly 3-4 squats and 5-7 curls on each arm

 pullups and some high jumps would probably round this out as a great 'stay in shape' non-gym workout

Journals / Re: MDee's Journal/Blog
« on: September 24, 2011, 03:41:14 am »
so you've been eating just those three foods (more or less) for 3 years??

Journals / Re: MDee's Journal/Blog
« on: September 23, 2011, 09:42:53 pm »
thanks I'll try it out. I assume you find these digest better?


The requirements for protein may indeed be low, this is certainly a debated subject.

Its a good sign you are putting on weight and muscle. One thing is that you can find veg folks and even vegans who can build muscle on vegetable amino acids, this is true, but its surmised that animal protein (like animal fat) provide components necessary for all kinds of internal processes (and healing) etc.. that are not present even when getting these macro-nutrients adequately from plant foods

Perhaps some folks here have suggestions on how to better digest animal protein with your conditions. I agree sometimes you don't want to mess with what is working..but you want to consider long term needs as well. I would recommend at least a few days a week with more animal proteins. IMO someone like Nora Gedgaudas recommends what is likely the low end for protein consumption. Below even that seems risky long term.

interesting the sourdough works well for your IBS. How long have you been doing that combination?

Off Topic / Re: GAY Military Magazine COMING to US bases!
« on: September 23, 2011, 06:37:37 am »
Don't ask don't tell in Sparta

dam media brainwashing about gays being not related to modern food and media and existing before 1945!


Amorous Squid Seeks Partner: Any Sex Will Do

"Far better to risk wasting a few million sperm than to miss out on a chance to reproduce."

ok that makes sense..just mathematics... and its dark

"Male dolphins pursue sex with males and females equally, but the females show a preference for males. Bonobos pair off in all the combinations, often."

just horny little creatures..its temporary...for sex only.

"Laysan albatrosses form long-term female/female pair bonds, but for them the point is raising chicks, not sex."


"Don’t imagine that squid are stupid, Ms. Zuk said, at least about being squid. “The animal is not making a mistake. It’s not mistaken to deposit sperm with another male,” because somehow, the behavior works, or natural selection would have eradicated the behavior or the squid."'


Journals / Re: MDee's Journal/Blog
« on: September 23, 2011, 06:20:21 am »
Where do you get your protein??


The writing seems good. I think the 'what I eat' bothers me somewhat with 2.2 things listed. Sorta like the 'I eat Pemmican!" blogs. I can see reason for really restricted diets (particularly ruminant diets_ if they can provide much of the necessary nutrients while avoiding possibly problematic foods..but what is the reason here for eschewing muscle and organ meat when eating kidney fat? It says you did 100% raw paleo and primal diet. What were your experiences?

how do you ferment your egg-whites?


Exercise / Bodybuilding / Re: Today's workout?
« on: September 22, 2011, 09:05:40 am »
basically its a kettlebell swing using a dumbbell.

often its done with two hands..but you need to use a much heavier weight that way and doesn't work as well with a dumbbell. basically its like a shoulder raise..but it works more of your body and your legs by popping your hips. Its a great all around strength, mobility and cardio exercise.

two hands

Exercise / Bodybuilding / Re: Today's workout?
« on: September 21, 2011, 01:22:25 am »
knock the rust off

Total of 300 squats today plus 2500 this month...2800 for September (+800 for the month).

youre stainless steel dude.


Did another modified CF-like single weight workout

All exercises with a 41 lb dumbell:

-as many overhead squats and bicep curls to failure then:
back bridges x 10 x 3
after each - as many overhead squats and bicep curls to failure then:

dumbbell 'swings' with one arm x 10 x 3
after each - as many overhead squats and bicep curls to failure

pendlay-type row with the dumbbell to failure

I have it so the weight is a little heavy for me for the single arm OHS but its too light for the swings and curls.

Journals / Re: Lifestyles of The Raw and Paleo
« on: September 21, 2011, 01:02:53 am »
@KD, your bed looks so cool. All those organs are super delicious. Definitely paleo is the best. All about simplicity of life. Who needs a kitchen or a bed?

not me! although I enjoy to sleep in a bed or cook in a kitchen on occasion. Its certainly more of a novelty, for fun in comparison to most folks

some more veiny action. not a great shot but you can see here on the shoulder. This is despite cycling some starchy roots and a few more fruits here and there and putting on a few lbs. Legs probably made the most progress over the spring/summer. a year ago they were still pretty stickly.

havn't been working out as much, but still hanging in there, having fun.

General Discussion / Re: High Meat
« on: September 20, 2011, 10:58:49 pm »
What kind of microorganisms should be in high-meat? Can any type of meat, organ or muscle be used to make high-meat? Does it have to be sealed like in a glass jar..? Would it be best to put it in salt-water like with sauerkraut? What should high-meat look and smell like..? Could someone experienced with high-meat tell me if there are any types of meat which don't work? I've tried to hang kidneys, and also inner skirt of beef, and they don't dry out like most muscle meat does, some parts stay moist, those parts become really nasty smelling/tasting and it spreads across the dry parts too... Smells/tastes bad.. Similarly, perhaps there are also some meats which do not work for high-meat as well..

I have a bad gut micro-organism balance and I want to sort it out so I want to make some good pro-biotic foods. I'm going to make a load of sauerkraut, but I'm wondering about high-meat as well.

I don't know the first answer but I can give a go to the rest. My belief is in order to 'culture' something its going to have to be in a controlled the jar. With hanging and ageing meat, it will break down of course but without knowing too much of the details - has to be somewhat different as a process. Alot of the traditional methods allowed for some kind of inclosure/festering so to speak with some system of airflow to refresh the system. Of course in nature an animal will just rot but even this I imagine is different in results to 'modern' high-meats which is more akin to 'medicine' - thus man-made quantities/types of stuff.

the lacto-fermentation of sauerkraut or kimchi is indeed different..but just as an rotting cabbage will produce sauerkraut.


I have some organs going for the first time but havn't eaten anything but heart that way in the past. I think rawzi has made them out of nearly everything?

I have fish going now. tastes and smells almost entirely like feces, somehow not in a bad way. err somehow not in a super-bad way. Some fridge settings have impeded me in the past personally - resulting in condensation and other poor conditions

if you are looking for a quicker probiotic, kefir or yogurt (even pasteruized) do indeed work in a pinch. Relatively small amounts in temporary fashion might be enough. Regardless of ones opinions on dairy foods, it is not true that these do not aid in meat/fruit diets.

Health / Re: Ultratrace - mineral supp. from the salt lake. Thoughts?
« on: September 20, 2011, 10:22:33 pm »
I remember years ago thinking more the better.  

yeah, different strokes I guess. On a diet with larger amounts of carbs like honey it could be a reasonable or good for some that tolerate it. I imagine purely for the supplemental minerals on a low carb/VLC approach that less is indeed better.

I guess typically the bitter greens are mixed with cellery or cucumber or perhaps carrots to achieve more volume and dilute the taste perhaps. Unless one has a press or greenstar its usually a challange to get alot of juice off herbs anyway. Ive done dandelion almost strait in a Greenstar (perhaps with some cellery) and its like dank swamp coffee.

I'm not sure how much of it I could do on an empty stomach, but I tend to like when my raw food experience is akin to shooting whiskey or something

My machine broke almost 2 years ago now. For a time I was just jucing various herbs in my mouth (wadging). Celery too. Seems to work well but for either -one inevitibably gets some fiber in there if you arn't careful and that was always seen as a no no when making juice, like not straining etc.. as far as it assimilates

I'm contemplating getting a new basic model or geting a greenstar of ebay but I might just cheap out and start doing this again. The seeds i've already acquired. I have dandelion, nettles, wild spinach, and lambs quarters. of course half this shit grows right outside.

Health / Re: Ultratrace - mineral supp. from the salt lake. Thoughts?
« on: September 19, 2011, 09:09:28 pm »
I have been using it for years,  seems to be doing me good.   I also have gotten back into juicing greens.  Just a few leaves, maybe a 1/3 cup of juice total, on an empty stomach.  

hey van I've thought about getting back into juice as well, always seemed to work well for me. What are you using? I've been cultivating some rich soil with worms indoors and planning on growing some plants from 'wild-crafted' varieties of plants. make that little bit of juice count. heh heh.

I'll test out this thing. I certainly eat enough calcium as to warrant it possibly. Mostly raw options seem to be pumpkin seeds, greens etc. as well as organs and fish of course. Strange how many grains are super high in is tap water.

Journals / Re: Sully's Journal
« on: September 19, 2011, 08:49:12 pm »
I think its been discussed on the forum here that the different kinds of marrow: buttery, liquidy, crumbly..are more to do with different parts of the bone. That my impression anyway. I know Slankers for instance has a wide variety of textures etc...

its also interesting that Slankers has a pretty visible profile of being all grass-fed but personally the meat (beef anyway) tastes way worse than most other grass-fed beef. Being frozen doesn't help but the local beef here which is required to be frozen always tastes way superior as does fresh WF beef. Their pork is pretty fantastic tho.

Exercise / Bodybuilding / Re: Today's workout?
« on: September 18, 2011, 11:24:04 pm »

2000 squats so far this month....putting me at +700 for the month!


I've been doing alot of BW stuff outdoors and some CF. Ironically I think I'm about to go back to my Gold's gym to do some heavier lifts, and some stranger routines involving weights at high intensity. Overall I had a relaxing summer, didn't make alot of progress or care.

I did this the other day. looking to adapt some similar workouts.

2 Rounds: (just used 8 kg)
5 Turkish Get-ups Right Arm
5 Dead Hang Pull-ups
10 KB Swings Right Arm
5 Dead Hang Pull-ups
5 Turkish Get-ups Left Arm
5 Dead Hang Pull-ups
10 KB Swings Left Arm
5 Dead Hang Pull-ups


The turkish get ups are an awesome and challenging (for me) exercise. I don't have alot of locked out shoulder strength like with overhead squats or many kettlebell overhead work.

On the same day I did clean and jerks (just #115)
practiced extreme chest to bar/mucle ups on the bar, muscle ups on rings, crap pistols, and did about 6 rope climbs (25ft) some with just arms and no foot support/stopping with some other miscellaneous stuff.

I can now do 20+ one legged divebomber pushups, so i'm looking into some of this insanity for when I don't have a gym. I can't do the high rep body-weight thing...

"Excuse me for my whiteness"

Carnivorous / Zero Carb Approach / Re: Acculturation
« on: September 18, 2011, 11:08:59 pm »
For years as a vegan, raw, and eating raw animal foods I had dreams of 'bad foods' etc..often these were clearly foods that had very little nutrtion and were more often things I hadn't eaten in years or even decades even before those dietary changes. Now i'm one to belive in dietary cravings as possible* indicators of nutrtional needs but more inclined after experience to say that more likely these are some kind of physical/psychological processing - or to possibly lower my credibly - some kind of detox of such things on a physical level that gets processed in dreams.

The testosterone thing - being a more objective observation - would be more something to pay attention to but this could very well be transitional. There are so many criticisms against LC/ZC these days that one can seek out if they wish. You hear alot of this talk and often the people will admit to never going through what most people successful* have accepted as challanging transition periods. There is certainly alot of room for feeling crappy all around on such diets for long periods. I hate saying this, as this can possibly not be the case for the individual and there may be legitimate issues with the diet and also this logic can be used to support any diet like high fruit diets or veganism etc...

It does seem worth putting out that alot of people have "honeymoon" stories with LC then start getting into deeper conflicts that perhaps were always there and begin being sorted out on such a diet. Often when you look at what or how these naysayers were actually eating..this tells its own story too

Anyway. you could certainly hedge your bets by eating small ammounts of nutritionally dense carbs. Possibly adding more (but still low) after adjustment to reach the full benefits of such a diet and tweak other nutritonal needs. Most of the justifications that seem more solid - to me - for a mostly carb excluded diet seem to have to deal with healing a modern persons' problems rather than a diet we necessarily ate in nature that consisted of meat alone, but the precedents are certainly there especially for what mostly RAW diets are actually present in nature with others often being far more speculative actually. There does seem to be some legitimate arguments that we would not crave sweet foods at all had we weened and eaten very little processed sugars, and with very little natural sugars as to maintain that fat burning metabolism that truly - from my experience- does not have cravings or even many least on a extreme level that would mean going off a deep end of sorts. There does seem to be some tipping point in VLC/LC particularly with the types of carbs (sugary, cooked etc..) that WILL lead to more cravings and general desires where less palatable but equally high carb sources will not. GO FIGURE!?

Personally I imagine going from a standard diet to a RAW low carb diet would have been terribly difficult. going vegan actually seemed for me to be a huge component in shaving off certain foods and that seems to be the same for alot of other people. Adhering to a strict all raw diet at times seems often also necesary.

Generally, I think if someone is not able to eat a piece of fruit or some cooked starch here and there without some kind of localized binge or getting off track entirely on the diet, this shows some kind of physical/emtional 'acculturation' as you say to food, but this goes often particulary for sugar burning (even all raw) dieters as well. In fact this is so ubiquitous that its not really worth stressing about. If I can present an ideal it seems like after one is on a healthy diet generally they become emotionally stable and don't eat for pleasure or entertainment, but will eat for such on occasion as part of that balance.

General Discussion / Re: What rawpalaeo foods are you eating right now?
« on: September 18, 2011, 10:47:57 pm »
Yesterday: Black Sea Bass and Swordfish high meat (~6+ week)

also have this sheep liver going about the same time.

Primal Diet / Re: Chocolate?
« on: September 07, 2011, 11:43:12 pm »
In the new products list I got in November, a source for raw cocoa beans is listed.  I understood AV didn't recommend any chocolate at all, instead carob is a substitute.  Does anyone know if he has changed his stance on that?

   He doesn't usually recommend onions or garlic either or a number of other "foods", but every once in a while he recommends something unusual to someone.  I get this perspective from talking with many primal dieters who have personal diet plans from him, one at a time.  Maybe cocoa beans are on the list; because he has recommended cocoa as some type of treatment to a couple.

Right. There is a huge difference between promoting a product as health forming and saying something can function as a specific tool for particular conditions or just simply be a minor vice in moving along on a health path. If someone is bit by a snake, it makes very little reason to fuss over toxic properties of the antidote. Seems to me the essence of AV's teachings are less pressing versions of this concept..using foods and larger aspects of diet ( fat burning etc..) to heal problems and remove compounds that were non existent in nature and go beyond the scope of a traditional diet.
To my knowledge cacao is seen more or less as toxic by AV but so is any kind of cooking or most processing pretty much unilaterally as well, despite popping up here and there in recomendations. People dwell on Aajonuis mention of breads and cooked starches and some of these appear on those product lists. So what?
What it comes down to is certain things are ultimately not important in the context of doing the crucial steps for increased health, and part of the whole point of what makes Aajonus approach unique is its emphasis on tools and processes indifferent to what can be simplistically labeled as "natural" as these approaches did not work for either him or his clients over decades of practice.
By and large he is against powders, oils and almost all heating and processing, but the things that happen to be (in his opinion) exceptions from such things are based on objective analysis of what works for a modern person..and not about blanket theories of good or bad. Oils, juices, and blenderized things feature sometimes even prominently. The big truth is these things can work to balance or nurture in ways that other foods cannot and should not be defacto criticized without actual analysis of the results.

Because, unlike with other dietary gurus, his advice has (sometimes though not all the time) proven very useful to people as regards improving their health.

Mostly people seem to react unnecessarily negatively to what are basically specific suggestions for people with extreme if they don't work or arn't necessary on the individual level people are always free to eat whole foods and disregard such things. Often times maybe these thigns do lack evidence or are just plan wrong, at least on their indiviodual level, but if it works for one person its worth having an open mind. In my analysis, what is more obvious is more often than not people ARE NOT honest about what level of health these 'purist' decisions bring and will for whatever reason hold on to theories about what should be best. Since there is no pretention of following a diet that is completely natural in Primal Diet, just that basic understanding and flexibility presents a far more healthful mindset while following the necessary steps to get well - steps which coincidentally can easily be skipped entirely on many interpretations of a raw whole foods diet..hence vegan interpretations etc...Of course any extreme diet -primal or purists - can also lead to obsessions over doing the 'right' thing, and AV is probably very responsible for that in some ways.
In a nutshell, people miss the whole point as to what factors and important process are for healing. A little even knowingly toxic (if that turns to be the case) chocolate is far more healthful than diets that don't specifically tackle disease, no matter how 'natural" or raw.

Yeah, chocolate is definitely both paleo and raw...  ;D

Was this bumped for some relevant reason? non-raw and non-paleo discussions are allowed on this board and in this sub-forum.

Its possible to process 100% raw cacao, its just rarely done as it is not profitable and its effortless to label most processing raw and get away with it. Certainly the cacao fruit/nut is far more ancient/paleo than a kiwi, broccoli etc..

Personals / Secure chat client
« on: September 07, 2011, 08:19:10 am »

here is a simple chat I just came across

doesn't require facebook or twitter identifier and is quick and free of crappy graphics.

pretty interesting developer

Exercise / Bodybuilding / Re: Today's workout?
« on: September 07, 2011, 07:32:27 am »

Warmup: 750 k row

Skill: In 10 min Accumulate 3 min of L-sit time and BS warmup

Back Squat @ BW (160LB) x 5 = 50 full weighted squats

Run 800 meters then

4 Rounds of the couplet:
7 Hang Squat Cleans (95lb)
14 Ring Dips

then run another 800 meters


Hello Geoff Purcell (aka TylerDurden). The blatantly racist, bigoted rant you've been spewing is exactly why I hesitate to allow my real name to be associated with this site.

Just in case you care...

Well I don't know if you checked out the 'Women' thread, but most of these conversations (TD or not) are often bigoted, racist, etc..its the caveman way essentially. I personally do agree with Mel Gibson and some other folks that at the end of the day we need to acknowledge to some extent that individuals are different and 'not equal' and not always tolerate all this PC crap in discussing such things on those terms. The problem is that he and others tend to take things way too far in not being respectful towards others' point of view and experience. People that are PC need to respect challenges to their viewpoint and people that are 'naturalistic' need to acknowledge that things change and don't have simple solutions.

In other words, just because in nature people have taken on certain roles does not mean contemporary societies cannot change those roles. It does mean they might have consequences particularly for the people who don't benefit as much from such.

As per the looters and unrest which will likely only spread and get worse...there is going to have to be some GOVERNMENT solution to such things that is not just us-against-them violence. IMO as a wake up...basially there isn't going to be an unraveling of social programs or return to some constitutional interpretation (here in the US or elsewhere) to how government functions..nor should there be as these things are unprepared for how truly complex people are. Everything in the past ONLY worked by marginalizing other people (women/blacks etc..) and in creating gaps between individuals more so then other times in history - nevermind in 'nature' - and at a price of removing all kinds of freedoms to drink clean water and find clean food and just live. Even medieval serfs only had to work less then 20 hours a week or something and they always had clean food and booze. The shitty aspects of the world we live in are not due to liberal policies but to industry and greed. Modern liberal policies (like conservative policies) can be a tool for others to capitalize and hold on to such resources and create ignorance.

Its true that constant striving for equality and such brings up a tremendous amount of problems that some would rather not deal with..but hell we get to pick up our food from a store and live in a relatively safe dwelling free of raids from angrier lusting savages.

I think even most people even on the right do not believe we will solve problems by returning to some extreme but just to more simplistic model..that it is not all a big conspiracy.

since people are forced to pay taxes and such, individuals that receive benefits should now be forced to meet more strict requirements to receive them. (I hesitate to write: like in China) which serve as incentives and benchmarks not to be an asshole.

If people want some kind of basic medical coverage (which is necessary even for healthy people in case of physical accidents and such) then they should have to comply with basic they can't have more then 2 kids. If people are unemployed for more than three months they should HAVE to get up and go to some non-bs public program that makes or constructs things. We should concentrate on the crack down of real food by corporations via government and lobby for policies where all the things that are 'bad' like fast food and such should go the way of cigarettes and just be taxed to death so that only hipsters can afford them as novelty items.

Welcoming Committee / Re: Tried Paleo for one month...
« on: August 11, 2011, 09:06:48 am »
welcome laece

theres alot of talk that goes around here that might seem strange at first...but I'm sure you will be able to find whatever you can apply to your life..and then ditch the rest...

IMO getting off most industrial foods is a huge step and one that should lead to an increase in health. raw food for me is simply a more sophisticated part of the tool set to getting healthier or finding health that seemed unavailable otherwise.

- raw animals including raw animal internal organs and raw fat, raw blood, raw meat - including aquatic creatures and others
- raw organic / wild fruit in season
- raw organic vegetables

heh heh..might want to leave out the blood for the first one really is consuming much of that stuff here anyway


I like being around Latin women, African American women, Asian women, Women with British accents especially of West Indian or African decent. Multiculturalism works for me.

all this stuff is just flips of a coin

the crackdown on crime and gated safety brought an influx/plague of what the brits would call 'wankers' to New York and made the city practically devoid of any real culture anymore. Just a anemic American dream slumming in the formerly alive streets. From a effective standpoint they certainly have it down by essentially a financial force ghettoizing people way outside the city or to other places (like prisons) in a military moat there no longer is a social problem..except boredom.

My take on any and all of these government conversations is that from the true paleo perspective..any lock and key type control of resources is the start point to all social conflicts and removes the ability to ever reference how things should be..because everything is already unfair and far more so then in nature where one can up and move and actually acquire food and resources independent of societies rules and obstructions.

Personally one can argue that pre-civilized societies had it down and these roles and such are 'default' but one can't argue what kind of cultural breakthroughs have happened in just hundreds of years whereas these wern't exactly goals or accomplishments by animals or primitives. If one believe in human progress in any way then its foolish to think that we don't need to increasingly update contracts and take new factors or developments into consideration to accommodate new ways of thinking about human interaction. Everything comes at a cost..and sometimes that cost is less efficient societies or pain in the ass things that make no sense rather then the simplicity of patriarchy or whatever that 'works'. If people want to follow traditions to the extreme there are examples of Islamists and Hasidic Jews and such who turn to old ways and separate from society within society..yet this proves pretty much impossible as humanity has already chosen its course and people will always be tempted by the new nature. Also these people suck.

The modern system no matter what style of government makes PEOPLE under the thumb of other PEOPLE..which creates responsibility to help others. Just how it is. The real danger is governments being able to be taken control by organizations who practice unfettered greed even at the cost of resources which in many cases are not replaceable. Just about any way to make a living impacts everyone else. The systems themselves (like medical coverage) and all those other things are problematic and possibly fascistic..but at the very source of it..people DO contribute to factors which cause much of others disease and its naive to think that people only have responsibility to themselves...or that they ever have rights to anything while others do not. These are always rooted in some kind of unfairness which has nothing to do with whether one person is stronger than another or whatever resolves things in nature..but things people are born into with statistically little true hope of change unless people change them.

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