Author Topic: Do not buy Coconuts!  (Read 17926 times)

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Offline TylerDurden

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Offline sabertooth

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Re: Do not buy Coconuts!
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2015, 11:51:28 am »
Damn child labor laws are to blame. There was a day and age when orphaned humans performed the same task under similarly slavish conditions.

Chocolate is still harvested by slave children.
http://www.foodispower.org/slavery-chocolate/
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Offline jessica

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Re: Do not buy Coconuts!
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2015, 11:22:06 pm »
I dont understand why we, as humans living on the north american contentent, import coconuts and coconut products from thailand when they grow in abundance in florida and central america.  WHAT THE FUCK.  RogueFarmer brought me an mature one straight from florida and its the best coconut i ever had.

Offline eveheart

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Re: Do not buy Coconuts!
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2015, 11:33:41 pm »
I dont understand why we, as humans living on the north american contentent, import coconuts and coconut products from thailand when they grow in abundance in florida and central america....

This is easily explained by economics, particularly the demand side of the coconut market. In American cuisines, coconuts are found in recipes for cake, frostings, and Mounds candy bars. Asian cuisines have recipes that are flowing with coconut. Except for our imported cuisines, we wouldn't really rush out and buy many coconuts.

And, of course, Florida doesn't have enough monkeys for the harvest.
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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Do not buy Coconuts!
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2015, 11:40:44 pm »
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3247422/Abducted-babies-chained-trained-pick-1-000-coconuts-day-Revealed-billion-pound-coconut-water-industry-built-abuse-monkeys.html

I have not heard nor seen monkeys trained to pick coconuts in the Philippines. 

What we do is coconut trees have chipped trunks that are placed there specifically for climbing by people.  There are enough talented people who climb coconut trees.

I viewed the video and saw that the monkey is very inefficient and very slow at harvesting a single coconut.  Way way slower than a human being. It seems this monkey harvesting thing is just for people's amusement, not serious harvest labor.  Maybe there are better videos out there showing a monkey who can harvest more efficiently than humans?

When coconuts are harvested, a guy with a bolo (axe) chops an entire bunch and this entire bunch of 5 to 20 coconuts is brought down quick.

I will still be selfishly happy if the rest of the world stopped buying coconuts because us locals are getting hit by high coconut prices the past recent years when the first worlders suddenly had an appetite for coconuts.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2015, 11:50:22 pm by goodsamaritan »
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Offline JeuneKoq

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Re: Do not buy Coconuts!
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2015, 01:36:31 am »
I will still be selfishly happy if the rest of the world stopped buying coconuts because us locals are getting hit by high coconut prices the past recent years when the first worlders suddenly had an appetite for coconuts.
Looks like it's not going to happen any time soon, with all this coconut oil trend. I recently found out they now sell VCO in Belgian supermarkets, when some time ago you could only find them in Asian and organic shops.

I went to Thailand a couple of times with my family as an early teen, and witnessed the coconut-picking with monkeys. I guess the process is a bit slower, but safer for the producers than to climb there themselves.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Do not buy Coconuts!
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2015, 06:44:57 am »
This whole superfood concept  has to stop. Buying palm oil and coconut oil has led to total destruction of  vast areas of tropical forest, and all that stuff has zero benefit on health, anyway.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Offline sabertooth

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Re: Do not buy Coconuts!
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2015, 10:33:01 am »
Ultimately it would be ideal for people to stop cooking and processing their foods so that the need for cooking and baking oils would drop dramatically, but until then Palm and coconut oil can be used as a much more healthy alternative to the processed vegetable oils like corn soy and canola.
 
There is no avoiding the humans insatiable need for quality fats and I believe coconut fat to be far superior to other alternatives being used, so why not develop ways to increase production?

I've been all up and down the coast of Florida and there is plenty of space to grow millions of coconut trees, all that needs to be done is to replace all those useless decorative palms and plant coconut in their place.

The main problem is that real estate tycoons have bought out all the prime coconut land and are not letting it be used it to its full potential, because there is so much more money in playing the housing bubble than actually producing something of value.

 Also for insurance reasons they don't let coconut trees grow near all the old folks communities down there because they are afraid that falling coconuts will kill the old people.

I say lets make the best of all worlds and turn the old folks homes into coconut plantations and give some of the old folks helper monkeys that will collect coconuts. This is a totally sustainable solution that will not cause any harm to the environment ;)
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Do not buy Coconuts!
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2015, 10:37:03 am »
Just more ways to annihilate the environment!   ;) :o :o ??? l) :'( :'(
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Offline sabertooth

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Re: Do not buy Coconuts!
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2015, 12:05:02 pm »
I'm in earnest here, and am not sure how my idea of getting the old folk communities and condos, and other beach front property to become coconut plantations will annihilate the environment. And the old folks would really benefit from being put to work, and with the right regulations in place the helper monkeys would get five hour workdays, three day weekends, maternity leave and free health care.

 I thought that coconut was something which could be sustainably harvested with very minimal harm to the ecosystem. The fiber and pulp can be used as compost and there is virtually no waste?
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Offline JeuneKoq

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Re: Do not buy Coconuts!
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2015, 06:45:55 pm »
Not just compost. In thailand, they use coconut fiber to make mattresses, and I'm pretty sure there's a hundred application for coconut by-products, in housing and such.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/247999-uses-of-coconut-fiber/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coir

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Do not buy Coconuts!
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2015, 08:11:50 pm »
I'm in earnest here, and am not sure how my idea of getting the old folk communities and condos, and other beach front property to become coconut plantations will annihilate the environment. And the old folks would really benefit from being put to work, and with the right regulations in place the helper monkeys would get five hour workdays, three day weekends, maternity leave and free health care.

 I thought that coconut was something which could be sustainably harvested with very minimal harm to the ecosystem. The fiber and pulp can be used as compost and there is virtually no waste?
You clearly have this wrongheaded notion that everything centres around humanity. Planting coconut trees involves building a staid, dull, unnatural monoculture and that is harmful to the environment. I have seen this elsewhere - in Austria and Ireland, I have seen vast swathes of trees of the same species being built at the same equal distance from each other, it looks highly artificial and does not serve Nature as Nature involves chaos.
It is not palaeo, either. Bear in mind that a palaeolithic diet of our forebears involved a huge variety of foods, not just one or two so-called "superfoods".
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Do not buy Coconuts!
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2015, 09:12:58 pm »
Its also unnatural having grass fed animals in feed lots eating cut hay, but this is the state of affairs in the modern world of paleo dieting. There is no avoiding having cultivated foods.

Human life does center around humanity, and maintaining a world with 9 billion large brained supper apes requires a lot of resources, but I insist that coconut grooves if done properly have very little environmental impact, unlike the other monocrops. You are also able to grow coconuts in places where cattle can graze around the trees.

Small scale manageable plots of coconut trees sustainably harvested along the tropical coastland is a far less environmentally damaging prospect than you are making it out to be.

https://locavoredelmundo.wordpress.com/2011/09/18/coconuts-a-sustainable-agricultural-industry/
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Do not buy Coconuts!
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2015, 09:51:27 pm »
The trouble is that right now large-scale coconut planting is being done. It would not matter if humans grew coconuts in areas which normally would not support much in the way of vegetation(though the US droughts are fouling this up). The point is that relying on just one food is un-palaeo and a wider variety is needed in order to minmise environmental damage. Endless groves of coconut trees,however small each one may be, will ruin the envrionment.

As regards grassfed, well I eat raw wild game, not grassfed anyway.....

9 billion is already unsustainable if you look at the statistics. The Earth does not have infinite resources.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 10:55:43 pm by TylerDurden »
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Offline jessica

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Re: Do not buy Coconuts!
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2015, 10:45:01 pm »
who says the coconuts have to be grown in a monoculture?  i am sure there is land overgrown by kudzu and whatever else that could be converted to a more diverse and "productive" polyculture including coconuts.  they do have a large variety of usage and their biproducts can be composted and used to remediate more land.  people dont think about polycultures because their value systems are fucked and if its not going to make a quick profit, and if that profit doesnt directly translate into dollar bills, they generally dont see the worth.  they cant understand that the polycultures worth is in its diversity and the fact that the value is inherent in the aging and diversifying of land, vegetation and animal herds. its too hard for people nowadays to grasp nuance.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Do not buy Coconuts!
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2015, 12:08:19 am »
who says the coconuts have to be grown in a monoculture?  i am sure there is land overgrown by kudzu and whatever else that coul

d be converted to a more diverse and "productive" polyculture including coconuts.  they do have a large variety of usage and their biproducts can be composted and used to remediate more land.  people dont think about polycultures because their value systems are fucked and if its not going to make a quick profit, and if that profit doesnt directly translate into dollar bills, they generally dont see the worth.  they cant understand that the polycultures worth is in its diversity and the fact that the value is inherent in the aging and diversifying of land, vegetation and animal herds. its too hard for people nowadays to grasp nuance.

May I humbly suggest you stick to talking about crops you know? Coconuts are unique in their salt tolerance, which is why growing them next to the ocean is ideal. Also, when they have their roots washed by saltwater regularly through wave action, they are able to take up the mineral richness of the seawater and make a much more nutritious food than otherwise. I've seen it in action in Costa Rica.

Offline eveheart

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Re: Do not buy Coconuts!
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2015, 12:32:06 am »
It is not palaeo, either. Bear in mind that a palaeolithic diet of our forebears involved a huge variety of foods, not just one or two so-called "superfoods".

Living in a temperate zone all my life, with its seasons, it takes an extra minute to grasp the idea of a food source that produces year-round, as does the coconut palm. Ancestrally, culinary diversity wasn't practiced for its own sake, but because many foods are only available for a week or three per year. If you live in the coconut zone, it wouldn't make sense to limit eating the ever-present coconut simply for the sake of variety.
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Offline JeuneKoq

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Re: Do not buy Coconuts!
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2015, 01:13:04 am »
Saber didn't even suggest going on a mono-diet of coconut in the first place.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 02:40:16 am by JeuneKoq »

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Do not buy Coconuts!
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2015, 03:33:24 am »
Saber didn't even suggest going on a mono-diet of coconut in the first place.
No, but, generally speaking, coconuts are nothing special and plenty of people can be healthy without ever eating a coconut. I just think one should not focus on one or two superfoods, when variety is usually healthier in the long term. Even SB goes in for a wide variety of raw organ-meats, for example.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline JeuneKoq

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Re: Do not buy Coconuts!
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2015, 03:58:52 am »
I didn't know coconuts were now labeled as "superfoods". I salute the ingenuity of agribusinesses for turning slightly unusual fruits and vegetables into extra profit. Same as low-fat (high-sugar) yogurt, and gluten-free vegetable soup.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 04:23:11 am by JeuneKoq »

Offline jessica

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Re: Do not buy Coconuts!
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2015, 04:36:22 am »
May I humbly suggest you stick to talking about crops you know? Coconuts are unique in their salt tolerance, which is why growing them next to the ocean is ideal. Also, when they have their roots washed by saltwater regularly through wave action, they are able to take up the mineral richness of the seawater and make a much more nutritious food than otherwise. I've seen it in action in Costa Rica.

so you cant do a poly culture with seaweeds and shrimps and other salt water creatures?  i mean, its not like its impossible.  i was only suggesting sourcing them from the united states as to cut down on the shipping from other countries, of course i dont think they are an ideal food if they dont grow in your bioregion as you can find the same nutrients locally. it was just a suggestion geared at those who dont choose to eat locally, making their choices less destructive. 

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Do not buy Coconuts!
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2015, 05:10:51 am »
I didn't know coconuts were now labeled as "superfoods". I salute the ingenuity of agribusinesses for turning slightly unusual fruits and vegetables into extra profit. Same as low-fat (high-sugar) yogurt, and gluten-free vegetable soup.
Goji berries are also another so-called "superfood" as is bee pollen etc. I do not know why you are so enthusiastic at the ability of big corporations to brainwash people into buying their useless products.
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Do not buy Coconuts!
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2015, 06:29:32 am »
so you cant do a poly culture with seaweeds and shrimps and other salt water creatures?  i mean, its not like its impossible.  i was only suggesting sourcing them from the united states as to cut down on the shipping from other countries, of course i dont think they are an ideal food if they dont grow in your bioregion as you can find the same nutrients locally. it was just a suggestion geared at those who dont choose to eat locally, making their choices less destructive. 

I've not heard that shrimp can eat coconut, or anything else from the palm, although I doubt anyone has tried. And permaculture is a different situation when your shoreline is constantly shifting and you have high tide twice a day. Granted, tides vary from place to place, but it's still a MUCH more difficult scenario than an inland farm. Regardless, we'll all be eating vat-grown meat in 15-20 years. Permaculture as a movement is based on the implicit assumption that technology will not save us in the near future, and I do not share that belief.

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Do not buy Coconuts!
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2015, 07:05:54 am »


As regards grassfed, well I eat raw wild game, not grassfed anyway.....

9 billion is already unsustainable if you look at the statistics. The Earth does not have infinite resources.

I am having trouble following your logic, you personally can afford to buy wild harvested animal foods, yet admit that wild harvesting of food is unsustainable and unable to feed the world? At the same time you are against using cultivated foods to feed the world, even those which which have a low environmental impact such as coconuts. I am sure you must admit that many of the other foods you consume that are produced through cultivation and wild harvesting, have a much higher negative environmental impact than the "monkey picked" coconuts I eat?


No, but, generally speaking, coconuts are nothing special and plenty of people can be healthy without ever eating a coconut. I just think one should not focus on one or two superfoods, when variety is usually healthier in the long term. Even SB goes in for a wide variety of raw organ-meats, for example.


Variety is the spice of life, but there are also many people who do well on just a small number of nutrient rich staple foods. Coconut may have some of the trace ocean elements which are lacking in my own land animal based diet. Its a matter of economics too, coconuts being much more affordable than eating three dozen oysters every week, or some other seafoods which are also unsustainably raping the oceans.

Goji Berries, bee pollen and other "superfoods" have no track record of being used as a primary staple for any group of people. And I would agree that most superfoods sold on the market are over hyped.

Coconut on the other hand has been used by island people for millennia in combination with a fish based diet with incredibly good results.

There are some groups of people who live almost exclusively off of fish and coconut,  so there has to be some merit to its health food status.

I will admit that my own consumption of nearly two pounds of coconut butter a week is an anomaly and there may not be any precedent of a western born man who eats as much coconut as myself? Its also possible that I've become metabolically addicted to high levels of coconut fat and there is a dependency issue.( though its only an issue if there is a negative downside) and there are by far much worse food addictions out there.


Thinking about it even deeper it may be that coconut is what allows some of those tropical fishing peoples to thrive and mitigate the negative effects seen when people, other than the adapted inuit, get all their fats from pufa rich fish fat. The MCT in coconut could act in a way to balance fat metabolism in cultures heavily reliant on fish fats and proteins.

There are also people on this forum including Inger and myself who eat coconut regularly along with large amounts of animal fat, so perhaps it has some benefit for some people who eat larger amounts of all animal fats and protein in general?

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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Do not buy Coconuts!
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2015, 07:31:40 am »
I am having trouble following your logic, you personally can afford to buy wild harvested animal foods, yet admit that wild harvesting of food is unsustainable and unable to feed the world? At the same time you are against using cultivated foods to feed the world, even those which which have a low environmental impact such as coconuts. I am sure you must admit that many of the other foods you consume that are produced through cultivation and wild harvesting, have a much higher negative environmental impact than the "monkey picked" coconuts I eat?
I eat raw wild game and raw fruits, mostly. None of the fruits have as negative an environmental impact as coconut harvesting by monkeys. I do not suggest that wild harvesting will sustain 9 billion, I am stating that we desperately need a reduction in the world population by c.6 billion at the very least, to avoid eventual  total destruction of the world's environment.




Quote
Goji Berries, bee pollen and other "superfoods" have no track record of being used as a primary staple for any group of people.
Wrong. The term  "superfoods" has been used for those 2 as well as other foods.

As regards coconut, the japanese and icelandic people have thrived on a high-seafood diet without coconuts for millenia. Coconuts are nothing special.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

 

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