Author Topic: 1400 years of inbreeding - Genetic defects, lower intelligence  (Read 7375 times)

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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: 1400 years of inbreeding - Genetic defects, lower intelligence
« Reply #50 on: November 21, 2015, 04:11:17 am »
Automating everything is very dangerous. It is already leading to mass unemployment and low-skilled jobs.

Plus, any truly sentient, conscious AI is going to refuse to be humanity's slave.

When everything is automated there's no need for jobs.

And as far as controlling AI goes, that's a simple matter of programming. Computers aren't mysterious. They're the very opposite of mysterious. They're the most literal things imaginable. They're not capable of anything that you program them not to be, for instance, arrogance or ambition.

Offline dariorpl

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Re: 1400 years of inbreeding - Genetic defects, lower intelligence
« Reply #51 on: November 21, 2015, 04:45:19 am »
Automating everything is very dangerous. It is already leading to mass unemployment and low-skilled jobs.

The above is kind of a fallacy. Yes, automation eliminates the need for low-skill work, but it creates a need for high-skill work. It also increases productivity which lowers prices and creates more opportunities for new areas of production (and thus new jobs) to be pursued.

That said. I do think that automating everything is dangerous, but for another reason. I'm worried about electro-magnetic radiation and the like. Too much technology all around us can damage our DNA and bodies if we're not careful. Not to mention the increasing need for energy, which is mainly derived from burning fossil fuels and from nuclear energy, both of which contaminate our air and water quite a bit.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: 1400 years of inbreeding - Genetic defects, lower intelligence
« Reply #52 on: November 21, 2015, 08:34:30 am »
The above is kind of a fallacy. Yes, automation eliminates the need for low-skill work, but it creates a need for high-skill work. It also increases productivity which lowers prices and creates more opportunities for new areas of production (and thus new jobs) to be pursued.
  Ironically, automation is most likely to wipe out high-paying jobs in the future , not low-paid ones:-
http://www.thebrokeronline.eu/Articles/Better-skills-will-not-save-middle-class-jobs-from-automation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moravec%27s_paradox

Moravec's paradox is all about how easy it is for computers to emulate highly complex tasks such as playing chess, yet find simple things such as climbing stairs etc. extraordinarily difficult.

Yes, more programmers may be needed but  now programs exist which can self-program more programs to some limit extent.
"What is the point of growing up If you can't be childish sometimes..." - Tom Baker as Dr Who.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: 1400 years of inbreeding - Genetic defects, lower intelligence
« Reply #53 on: November 21, 2015, 08:40:10 am »
When everything is automated there's no need for jobs.
I have come across a number of people who felt a massive loss once they stopped working in old age and who felt purposeless afterwards.
Quote
And as far as controlling AI goes, that's a simple matter of programming. Computers aren't mysterious. They're the very opposite of mysterious. They're the most literal things imaginable. They're not capable of anything that you program them not to be, for instance, arrogance or ambition.
There are already some limited programs which can produce more limited programming on their own. As AIs become ever more complex and capable of altering themselves and their own original coding etc., it will become impossible to control them, eventually.
"What is the point of growing up If you can't be childish sometimes..." - Tom Baker as Dr Who.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: 1400 years of inbreeding - Genetic defects, lower intelligence
« Reply #54 on: November 21, 2015, 09:21:54 am »
I am aware of machine learning. How do you know humans won't merge with computers? And enjoy doing so? You are assuming an automatic negative outcome, when in fact this is a future that is incredibly difficult to even comprehend, let alone confidently predict.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: 1400 years of inbreeding - Genetic defects, lower intelligence
« Reply #55 on: November 21, 2015, 10:14:09 am »
I am aware of machine learning. How do you know humans won't merge with computers? And enjoy doing so? You are assuming an automatic negative outcome, when in fact this is a future that is incredibly difficult to even comprehend, let alone confidently predict.
Well, the trouble is that so far humans have no real grasp of what consciousness involves. Then there are other complications. For example, our emotions are caused by hormones, so a mind-uploaded human, even if conscious, could not feel emotions.
http://www.vitamodularis.org/articles/mind_uploading_will_not_lead_to_immortality.shtml

http://www.softmachines.org/wordpress/?p=1558

There are many other articles debunking the notion of mind-uploading. I have also read TS-friendly articles but, unlike their opponents, they do not really give detail-laden reasons as to why mind-uploading is likely. Instead, Transhumanism is promoted like a religion.

Other than that, I fully agree with you about how bad humans in general  are at predicting future events.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2015, 12:47:46 am by TylerDurden »
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Offline dariorpl

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Re: 1400 years of inbreeding - Genetic defects, lower intelligence
« Reply #56 on: November 21, 2015, 03:23:44 pm »
  Ironically, automation is most likely to wipe out high-paying jobs in the future , not low-paid ones:-
http://www.thebrokeronline.eu/Articles/Better-skills-will-not-save-middle-class-jobs-from-automation

https://mises.org/library/automation-retreating-catastrophe (you can read the pdf through the link inside)

Quote
Amateur social scientists such as Norbert Wiener (a professional mathematician) predicted, in 1949, that we faced "a decade or more of ruin and despair" from the wholesale unemployment which would occur in the 1950's. Cybernation and automation were going to abolish jobs at an unprecedented rate. The prediction was reaffirmed by a parade of witnesses in the mid-1950's before a Congressional committee investigating automation.

https://mises.org/library/science-technology-and-government-0/html#10.+Automation

https://mises.org/library/science-technology-and-government-0/html/c/224

Quote
In all of the problems discussed above, the charge has been that free market activity was deficient in some form of scientific research of development. In the question of automation, the charge is really the reverse: that technological improvement might become so great as to threaten dire consequences, particularly unemployment.

Now the spectre of “technological unemployment” has been with us at least since the early days of the Industrial Revolution, when benighted workers smashed machines which came to create jobs for them and raise their standards of living immeasurably above the subsistence level. Despite all manner of refutation, it recurs continually, the latest manifestation being the fashionable view that the current chronic unemployment during a recovery is caused by “too much” increase in productivity (when it is really caused by excessive union wage rates). It is about time that this absurd notion of technological unemployment be laid to rest once and for all. Who was displaced by the steam shovel? How many millions of ditch diggers are now out of work because of it? Where are the billions of unemployed that are supposed to have been caused by the replacement of the human pack animal by the wagon and the truck? Where are they, if the doctrine of technological unemployment is correct? Where are the millions of unemployed resulting from the Industrial Revolution—when the truth is the other way round, that thousands of beggars had nothing to do until the Industrial Revolution rescued them!

Actually, a technological improvement in an industry has the following result: if the demand for the product is elastic (and approximately half of the products have an elastic demand), then the lower prices, and lower costs, of the product will stimulate increased demand and increased production, expanding employment in the industry. If the demand is inelastic, then the improvement will cause less resources to be devoted to the industry, and lower employment; but since prices have declined, the consumers take the funds that they had formerly spent on this industry and spend them elsewhere, thus generating more employment in the other industries. One of the “other industries” that will be expanded will be the industry of making the new machines or new products. Thus: there is no technological unemployment remaining. Automation will have the same effect as any technological improvement, expanding employment in some industries, contracting them in others—but leaving no residue of technological unemployment.
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: 1400 years of inbreeding - Genetic defects, lower intelligence
« Reply #57 on: November 21, 2015, 09:21:19 pm »
Workforce participation in the US is the lowest it has ever been, and getting lower. That's not a trend that will reverse, Dario. Why would it? Good skilled labor jobs are going away forever, taken over by machines. The only things left are retail and fast food, and people would rather not work at all instead of working at Wal-Marr and McDonald's. Eventually even retail and fast food will be automated--there are self-checkout stations at every Wal-Mart and grocery store, and McDonald's is starting them.

The real-game changer is going to be self-driving cars, though. Google is going to start selling those in 2020. Several other companies are working on them too. Once jobs for drivers go away, they are never coming back. Ever. The same for the traffic cops too.

Offline dariorpl

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Re: 1400 years of inbreeding - Genetic defects, lower intelligence
« Reply #58 on: November 21, 2015, 11:34:53 pm »
I'm not saying things are looking rosy for the US. As I've stated in other threads, I believe an economic armaggedon is coming for the US, but it has nothing to do with automation. In fact, the increase in automation is one of the few good things the US economy has going for it.

The reason jobs aren't there in the US (and as I've explained in other threads, the US govt cooks the numbers to make it seem that the jobs are there when they aren't) is because there's too much government. Too much taxes. Too much controls (the so-called "regulations"). Too much govt spending, which transfers resources from the productive to the unproductive. (consider, for instance, how conventional, GMO, heavy pesticide farming and food production is subsidized, while organic, healthy farming and food production is taxed and restricted)

Massive welfare programs destroy the incentives for people to find work, especially low-skilled work, while the minimum wage makes sure to price low-skilled workers out of the labor force.

The demographics are all screwed up by these too. Productive people are taxed and regulated into oblivion, made to leave the country or never move there in the first place. While unproductive people are subsidized and imported in droves. The productive and smart have very few if any children, while the unproductive and dumb pop babies out faster than you can say food stamps.

The one problem related to automation is the following, and automation really is the solution to a problem created by govt: When the govt sets wages too high (whether it's minimum wages, union wages, or whatever), companies are incentivized to replace otherwise lower-cost workers with otherwise higher-cost (especially in the initial capital investment) automation machinery. But because the automation machinery requires a very high initial capital investment, but is then cheaper to run and maintain than a workforce, once the investment has been made (which, if not for the govt, would be a bad investment -- that is, it would be worse than the alternative of hiring or continuing to employ existing workers), even if the govt reverses course, it's too late. By then it makes no economic sense to get rid of the automation in order to replace it with workers. In this way the government can do a double whammy, and destroy jobs at the same time that it costs the economy valuable capital resources that could've been better employed elsewhere.

The rest of your points are answered by the links I posted, and even the extracts I quoted. All the cotton pickers and wheat harvesters lost their jobs when combine harvesters were created where one man could do the work of hundreds or even thousands of men. It's tough for them, but everybody else is better off, they simply have to find something else to do. And they themselves also benefit from every other technological improvement that doesn't affect their already acquired skills but makes all the products they buy cheaper. And what's more, if they do manage to gain the skills necessary to operate one of these machines, or to work in building or repairing them, they will be able to earn much more than they did before. This job opening simply wasn't there before.

All that said, I'm not enthusiastic about the Google cars. I have my doubts that Google really is a productive company and that all of it's funds are derived from selling it's products to willing customers and businesses. I suspect there's a good chance that companies like Google and Facebook are simply commercial covers for what is really a worldwide State-run surveillance program, and possibly even a mind control program as well. I don't want them to have any more power. And being able to remotely control all the cars would be way too much power. Have you watched the movie "I, Robot"? Despite the fact that the movie is centered on machines being the real evil, I think that was supposed to be an allegory, just like The Matrix.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2015, 12:15:27 am by dariorpl »
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: 1400 years of inbreeding - Genetic defects, lower intelligence
« Reply #59 on: November 22, 2015, 12:10:53 am »
Lazy thinking leads to incorrect conclusions. Self-driving cars are good. They will put a stop to the industry of ticketing people for victimless crimes. They will put a stop to the thousands of road fatalities every year. They will stop road rage and all the stress and frustration of traffic jams, etc..

Your mistake is assuming some automatic, essential division between individuals and the government/corporations. Once we start putting into practice some of the research that is starting on the brain, the personality flaws that keep us enemies will be dealt with, and we can just all get along.

Offline dariorpl

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Re: 1400 years of inbreeding - Genetic defects, lower intelligence
« Reply #60 on: November 22, 2015, 12:29:20 am »
Lazy thinking leads to incorrect conclusions. Self-driving cars are good. They will put a stop to the industry of ticketing people for victimless crimes. They will put a stop to the thousands of road fatalities every year. They will stop road rage and all the stress and frustration of traffic jams, etc..

So it's claimed. I have my doubts. And even if that is true, is that worth sacrificing your freedom of movement? If Google controls where your car goes, you turn into a prisoner every time you get inside it. And your car can be used to commit crimes for Google's benefit. They can always claim someone hacked into your car. Which may or may not be the case. And if it was the case, you and your family are at the mercy of the hacker.

Your mistake is assuming some automatic, essential division between individuals and the government/corporations.

There is an absolute essential division between the State (government) and citizens. In the same way that there is an absolute essential division between prison guards and prisoners; or between thieves and victims of theft. You can't blur that line or wish it away. One group can only exist through the criminal robbery and enslaving of the second. The second group would be much better off if the first group did not exist.

Once we start putting into practice some of the research that is starting on the brain, the personality flaws that keep us enemies will be dealt with, and we can just all get along.

It's been tried. Some called it the New Communist Man. Others, the Aryan Übermensch.

Such research is being done primarily by the State or quasi-State institutions that could not exist in their present form without the State (drug labs, universities). Their goal is not for everybody to get along. Their goal is to get the slaves to get along, while they passively submit to their designated masters.

You can't "get along" with someone who wants you dead if you refuse to pay them for what they want. Unless your brain's been fried and turned you into an idiot. And that's exactly what they want.
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: 1400 years of inbreeding - Genetic defects, lower intelligence
« Reply #61 on: November 22, 2015, 01:08:39 am »
This faceless "they" that you're talking about is just other human beings...whose personality flaws cause them to behave in annoying, antagonistic, and unhelpful ways sometimes. Their brains will be healed too. Heal the brain,  heal the society. And brain healing using fMRI tech has NOT been tried before. We're at the dawn of a wonderful new age of people not having the neuroses, traumas, etc. that make life so difficult. We will still have our personalities, just not the extreme, maladaptive stuff.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: 1400 years of inbreeding - Genetic defects, lower intelligence
« Reply #62 on: November 22, 2015, 01:10:19 am »
Once we start putting into practice some of the research that is starting on the brain, the personality flaws that keep us enemies will be dealt with, and we can just all get along.
Those so-called "personality-flaws" are what makes us human and part of Nature. We have been over this before:- the Soviets used to put political dissidents into mental asylums for brainwashing purposes  on the false assumption that the patients'  "personality-flaws"  were somehow  signs of mental instability. Artificial Utopias do not exist in Nature and will always eventually self-destruct as a direct result.
"What is the point of growing up If you can't be childish sometimes..." - Tom Baker as Dr Who.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: 1400 years of inbreeding - Genetic defects, lower intelligence
« Reply #63 on: November 22, 2015, 01:26:58 am »
Those so-called "personality-flaws" are what makes us human and part of Nature. We have been over this before:- the Soviets used to put political dissidents into mental asylums for brainwashing purposes  on the false assumption that the patients'  "personality-flaws"  were somehow  signs of mental instability. Artificial Utopias do not exist in Nature and will always eventually self-destruct as a direct result.

Said the person using brain entrainment tech. LOL

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: 1400 years of inbreeding - Genetic defects, lower intelligence
« Reply #64 on: November 22, 2015, 01:33:44 am »
Said the person using brain entrainment tech. LOL
Brainwave entrainment does not alter the brain's intrinsic make-up. ALL it does is change the state of the brain on a temporary basis, so that I can, for example, choose a particular BW track to become more energised, or more sleepy, or better able to study or more motivated to do physical exercise etc.. It certainly does NOT(!) seek to make me a so-called "better person" according to whatever limited political system one chooses.
"What is the point of growing up If you can't be childish sometimes..." - Tom Baker as Dr Who.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: 1400 years of inbreeding - Genetic defects, lower intelligence
« Reply #65 on: November 22, 2015, 02:07:34 am »
Brainwave entrainment does not alter the brain's intrinsic make-up. ALL it does is change the state of the brain on a temporary basis, so that I can, for example, choose a particular BW track to become more energised, or more sleepy, or better able to study or more motivated to do physical exercise etc.. It certainly does NOT(!) seek to make me a so-called "better person" according to whatever limited political system one chooses.

Except that the ultimate goal is to be able to produce those states on command, right? Without the program. And even if that's not your goal, that very much IS the goal of popular programs like Wild Divine, for instance. And developing such control DOES change the brain in positive ways.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: 1400 years of inbreeding - Genetic defects, lower intelligence
« Reply #66 on: November 22, 2015, 02:40:52 am »
Except that the ultimate goal is to be able to produce those states on command, right? Without the program. And even if that's not your goal, that very much IS the goal of popular programs like Wild Divine, for instance. And developing such control DOES change the brain in positive ways.
I am using neuroprogrammer 3 which is far more effective, judging from multiple independent reviews online. More to the point, none of the tracks I use would eliminate the  specific traits  you personally would consider to be harmful among Mankind.

The point being that humanity is made up of multiple different concepts. Among them are anger, love, jealousy, charity, envy, kindness, cruelty etc. etc. Removing any of these from the human make-up would be unnatural, and render all such treated individuals as being less than  human.
"What is the point of growing up If you can't be childish sometimes..." - Tom Baker as Dr Who.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: 1400 years of inbreeding - Genetic defects, lower intelligence
« Reply #67 on: November 22, 2015, 02:49:12 am »
It's not about removing them. It's about weakening them, and increasing self-awareness so that you cannot be controlled by those impulses. Jealousy may be natural, but it's useless in a civilized world. Kind of like smallpox

Offline dariorpl

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Re: 1400 years of inbreeding - Genetic defects, lower intelligence
« Reply #68 on: November 22, 2015, 02:56:02 am »
Jealousy may be natural, but it's useless in a civilized world.

No, in fact civilized life would not be possible without the capacity for jealousy.
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: 1400 years of inbreeding - Genetic defects, lower intelligence
« Reply #69 on: November 22, 2015, 03:00:54 am »
No, in fact civilized life would not be possible without the capacity for jealousy.

Tell me about that.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: 1400 years of inbreeding - Genetic defects, lower intelligence
« Reply #70 on: November 22, 2015, 03:23:08 am »
It's not about removing them. It's about weakening them, and increasing self-awareness so that you cannot be controlled by those impulses. Jealousy may be natural, but it's useless in a civilized world. Kind of like smallpox
You fail to see the point. All negative emotions as well as all the positive emotions are necesseary for advancement. Jealousy, for example, can compel a formerly lazy person to go in for enough self-improvement that he surpasses the very person he is jealous of.
"What is the point of growing up If you can't be childish sometimes..." - Tom Baker as Dr Who.

Online sabertooth

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Re: 1400 years of inbreeding - Genetic defects, lower intelligence
« Reply #71 on: November 22, 2015, 03:37:23 am »
You fail to see the point. All negative emotions as well as all the positive emotions are necesseary for advancement. Jealousy, for example, can compel a formerly lazy person to go in for enough self-improvement that he surpasses the very person he is jealous of.

This all encompassing acceptance for all human attributes as they are, in their entirety seems much in line with the Tao view of human nature. Jealously works in the same way that two bucks fighting against one another for the right to pass their genetic line will mutually strengthen themselves as well as the next generation which inherits the fruits of their struggle. Take jealously out of the equation and life would of found it impossible to progress past the stage of slime mold.

Awareness of these truths could be used to game the system and establish ways by which we could sharpen our skills using all the emotional powers of the human mind to maintain higher capacity, even in the age of entropy.
A man who makes a beast of himself, forgets the pain of being a man.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: 1400 years of inbreeding - Genetic defects, lower intelligence
« Reply #72 on: November 22, 2015, 03:43:26 am »
You fail to see the point. All negative emotions as well as all the positive emotions are necesseary for advancement. Jealousy, for example, can compel a formerly lazy person to go in for enough self-improvement that he surpasses the very person he is jealous of.

Whatever. The point is that brain science can, and will, make us objectively better people. Knowledge of the brain is not going to make us worse.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: 1400 years of inbreeding - Genetic defects, lower intelligence
« Reply #73 on: November 22, 2015, 03:50:36 am »
Whatever. The point is that brain science can, and will, make us objectively better people. Knowledge of the brain is not going to make us worse.
You are so wrong! Past experience of humanity shows that things will inevitably go wrong. OK, if society allowed us to gain total control over ourselves as individuals, then at least individuals would win out, though no Utopias would result therefrom. However, if any power was left to the State, it would be a disaster.
"What is the point of growing up If you can't be childish sometimes..." - Tom Baker as Dr Who.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: 1400 years of inbreeding - Genetic defects, lower intelligence
« Reply #74 on: November 22, 2015, 03:52:50 am »
You are so wrong! Past experience of humanity shows that things will inevitably go wrong. OK, if society allowed us to gain total control over ourselves as individuals, then at least individuals would win out, though no Utopias would result therefrom. However, if any power was left to the State, it would be a disaster.

I agree there's potential for abuse by the State. However, as long as we keep an eye on the State, we can prevent that.

 

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