Author Topic: Animal Medicine Issue  (Read 31239 times)

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Offline goodsamaritan

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Animal Medicine Issue
« on: May 06, 2009, 03:42:24 pm »
I would like us to share animal medicine experiences and hearsays, folklore and documented uses.

If there is a herbal medicine issue thread, then there should be an animal medicine thread.

For Example:

Python Bile
- unexplained stomach aches
- seems to rid of undigested material in the stomach and intestines
- digests wastes on the skin such as eczema (my experience)

Turtle Meat
- experience of a friend fed turtle meat to his asthmatic child, cured
- chinese folklore says it is good for the liver, good for clear smooth skin

Raw eggs
- used to flush the liver, cleanse the liver
- multivitamins

Beef fat
- helps heal wounds when used topically?

Pigs' Pancreas
- dissolves cancer tumors when taken internally
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2009, 05:47:29 pm »
My  inclination would be to ban any discussion of medicine involving animal parts from rare species such as pythons, tigers, bears etc. Taking parts from such  wild animals is illegal, worldwide, even if not properly enforced. Parts of other more common animals like pigs is OK.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 07:48:57 pm by TylerDurden »
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Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2009, 08:50:58 pm »
I wouldn't be against a discussion of what various parts of various animals eaten can do to you, but not in an encouring way if those animals are protected by laws or endangered etc.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2009, 09:04:41 pm »
Eating raw goat liver / raw beef liver helps regenerate / heal livers?
- I guess it does, cancer patients have been cured with the help of daily raw liver consumption

Eating raw goat kidneys / raw beef kidneys helps regenerate kidneys?



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Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2009, 02:29:55 am »
That's mostly common sense stuff, the like treats like idea.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2009, 06:53:11 am »
In the continent of africa, they have ointment type antibiotics made from CROCODILE... don't exactly know which parts.

-----------

*** Note: These are advertisements of seller websites ***
*** I have no idea if these claims are true ***

Crocodile Oil
Skin protector and healing agent
Improving the healing process in wounds, lesions and preventing scar formation

Crocodile Oil is highly regarded as wonder oil for the skin.

We highly recommend Crocodile Oil as the first choice to use to repair and heal the skin after using Mole & Wart EZ Clear

*** link removed ***

-----------

Crocodile meat is an exotic meat delicacy around the world and is one of the health meats of the 21st century. A crocodile of 1.6 meter (slaughtering length) will weigh on average 16kg and will produce 10kg of meat for selling purposes. Crocodile soup is a centuries old Chinese cure for asthma and respiratory problems.

*** link removed ***

NOTE: Lex is right, these are peddlers of "magic" stuff.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 06:13:55 pm by goodsamaritan »
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Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2009, 09:32:17 am »
That's funny because crocs have dry scaly skin that no one would want. Not saying their oil would give you that, just that it's a funny coincidence.

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2009, 01:37:30 pm »
MY inclination would be to ban any discussion of medicine involving animal parts from rare species such as pythons, tigers, bears etc. Taking parts from such are wild animals is illegal, worldwide, even if not properly enforced. Parts of other more common animals like pigs is OK.

My inclination is to ban any discussion of medicine at all.  It has no place on this forum.   Wart Removers, Liver Flushes, Python bile for indigestion, Pig guts to cure cancer, what nonsense.  Pedal your Snake Oil and magic elixirs on another website.  This thread violates the whole premise of this forum.

Lex

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2009, 04:26:28 pm »
The current liver cancer / cirrhosis sufferer I'm coaching is on raw paleolithic diet to reverse his terminal status.

So far his cirrhosis symptoms are gone, his liver is flowing now.

His "treatment" is living a raw paleo diet and lifestyle.

The lifestyle is clean, chemical free.

-----------
His current diet is: fresh raw oranges juiced in water, other raw fruit juices, raw veggie juice + 5 raw fertilized egg yolks, 2 ounces raw goat liver, 1/2 kilo ground raw fatty beef daily.
-----------

Some people who are non-paleo may look at raw egg yolks, raw goat liver and ground raw fatty beef as "medicine".  Of course, we aren't peddling anything because they can purchase these regular items themselves.




« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 04:59:14 pm by goodsamaritan »
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2009, 08:23:19 pm »
The like cures like theory can be problematic, morally. After all, if like cures like, then the healthiest food to cure a sick human's liver would presumably be the fresh, raw liver of a long-term rawpaleodieter, not python-liver or whatever. Just a thought! -d

One thing's for sure, we don't need to eat the organs of an exotic, endangered species such as pythons, tigers or bears - standard pig/sheep/goat etc. organs will do fine. Chinese Medicine, in this regard, has done untold harm to local wildlife because of this curious notion of the more exotic the animal, the more supposed powers it has. Cannibals, in the Palaeolithic and beyond, also had the notion that if they ate  the heart of a sabre-toothed  tiger that they would gain the strength, speed and health of that tiger, or that they would gain an enemy's powers if they ate his body etc.
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Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2009, 11:40:59 pm »
The current liver cancer / cirrhosis sufferer I'm coaching is on raw paleolithic diet to reverse his terminal status.

So far his cirrhosis symptoms are gone, his liver is flowing now.

His "treatment" is living a raw paleo diet and lifestyle.

The lifestyle is clean, chemical free.

-----------
His current diet is: fresh raw oranges juiced in water, other raw fruit juices, raw veggie juice + 5 raw fertilized egg yolks, 2 ounces raw goat liver, 1/2 kilo ground raw fatty beef daily.
-----------

None of this sounds much like paleo.  You'd rarely find egg yolks in the wild - they'd be well on their way to little birds in most cases, and very seasonal at best.  I haven't seen any accounts of anyone finding a juicer in the caves with paleo bones, though I'm sure there are many in our modern landfills where they belong.  Chemical free doesn't mean paleo, nor does organic, both of which really mean nothing since everything we eat is made up of chemicals, and is derived from living organisms.  The addition of a bit of raw meat to an otherwise non-paleo diet doesn't make it paleo.  It's like saying the French are paleo because they eat raw goose livers and steak tartar with their wine, cheese, and baguette. 

Based on what you've presented, this person is certainly not living a paleo lifestyle - just a hokey mishmash of new age healing protocols mixed with a bit of raw meat which masquerades as paleo.  Many of us have found your "juice" regimen to actually be quite harmful and certainly not helpful.  My guess is that this person's improvement is due more to stopping the behaviour that caused the liver cancer/cirrhosis than to the "healing" protocol you've prescribed.  They'd probably do even better without the load of sugars and anti-nutrients from the juices. 

The liver doesn't "flow", bile does, and bile production is just one of hundreds of complex functions that the liver performs.  The term "flow" is meaningless nonsense and doesn't tell anyone anything about the liver's ability to properly perform its functions.

Of course, we aren't peddling anything because they can purchase these regular items themselves.

You are peddling nonsense and prescribing "healing" protocols.  You demonstrate this yourself by the examples you give - You call them "treatments'.  This should have no place on this forum.  We are not doctors and have no business pretending otherwise. 

I understand that some people may be drawn to a radical change in diet like raw paleo in an attempt to overcome a health issue, but our purpose should be to clearly explain what paleo is, the issues with transition, our personal experiences, and discuss the various issues people encounter as they try this way of life including the social consequences.  We should be making no claims that this lifestyle will heal terminal illness, or be prescribing any "healing" protocols for specific ailments.  If a person feels that our experiences demonstrate that it is worthwile for them to try paleo on their own, I'm glad to help them understand what I went through and what they can expect as they transition.  This is not a "treatment" as you call it.  It is just one of the many different dietary and lifestyle choices available. It has no more or less to do with "healing" than any other available dietary and lifestyle choices.

Please consider healing the sick on your other websites.  This one is about a raw paleo diet and lifestyle, not new age healing practices.


Lex
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 12:12:46 am by lex_rooker »

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2009, 04:39:33 pm »
re the claim:-  "We should be making no claims that this lifestyle will heal terminal illness"


This one idea I very strongly disagree with. The vast majority of people who turn to RAF diets do so solely  out of a desire to regain their health which was invariably previously  lost on a cooked/processed diet - I'm a good example - if I'd been reasonably healthy(ie bit overweight but with no other issues, I would never have dreamt of going rawpalaeo and would have stuck to eating crisps(aka "chips" in US slang?) and other junk food.  If we were to make no health-claims at all, then the only motivation for people to become RAFers would be to do it purely out of a need to rebel against the mainstream. Such people would only do this diet in the short-term as a fad diet, in most cases, due to the social issues involved etc. Besides, the fact that the rawpalaeodiet has indeed helped many people recover from terminal illness etc. is a major point in its favour and needs to be made clear via testimonials etc.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2009, 06:44:57 pm »
All arguments appreciated.

On to a lighter topic:

Seems RAW OYSTERS every couple of days increases sperm counts and ejaculate volume.

The fertility powers of oysters is a persistent folklore... persistent because it's true (in my case).

My testimony during my cooked eating times in 2002 when my wife and I were suffering for secondary infertility.  I've always measured my sperm counts through the previous years and it remained stable at 100 million per ml.  But in our attempt to have a baby I resorted to eating a lunch full of raw oysters 3 times a week.

After 1 month I got a new sperm count test and got 300 million per ml.  That's a 300% increase just due to raw oysters.  ;D

I couldn't believe the results... I went to the lab and asked the supervisor to verify if the sperm count test was correct.  He vouched that he himself checked my sperm analysis and found the count to be accurate.

Oh yeah, a week later my wife tested positively pregnant with our 2nd boy.  That's my boy on my avatar.

(in this infertility overcoming attempt we learned to quit all forms of drugs, all non edible lotions, threw away the microwave oven)
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 06:51:39 pm by goodsamaritan »
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Offline wodgina

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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2009, 11:04:05 pm »
I haven't heard of anyone being cured of a terminal illness on RPD?

I wouldn't claim any RPD cures, from my experience RPD is difficult to follow when NOT suffering a terminal illness and the fact is RPD does appear to heal somethings it takes a bloody long time. I don't want to give false hope. There's no way a liver flush can cure cancer and eating RPD for a month won't do much at all.

My first 6 months of RPD were stressful...I didn't know what to eat. spent $$$..and too much made be detox really fast and I would get nightmares. I struggled. Now imagine trying this with stage 4 cancer. I can't.

RPD as helped me a lot. I can say my experience of RPD healed my thyroid and IBS but I wouldn't like anyone to say come our forum it cures thyroid condition's and IBS it's unfair and not true.

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Offline Nicola

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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2009, 03:59:09 am »
The fertility powers of oysters is a persistent folklore... persistent because it's true (in my case).


I find a lot of your so called "healing", sperm counts, chicks talk off-putting to put it mildly. On top of this why not post your own picture insted of your poor son having to hold his head in for you?

Lex has always been most reliable, trustworthy and down to earth with all his comments on the paleo life-style; he does not drift off in all kinds of directions (detox, so called "raw healing", AV, sperm counts, chicks...).

Nicola


Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2009, 04:22:15 am »
I haven't heard of anyone being cured of a terminal illness on RPD?

I wouldn't claim any RPD cures, from my experience RPD is difficult to follow when NOT suffering a terminal illness and the fact is RPD does appear to heal somethings it takes a bloody long time. I don't want to give false hope. There's no way a liver flush can cure cancer and eating RPD for a month won't do much at all.

My first 6 months of RPD were stressful...I didn't know what to eat. spent $$$..and too much made be detox really fast and I would get nightmares. I struggled. Now imagine trying this with stage 4 cancer. I can't.

RPD as helped me a lot. I can say my experience of RPD healed my thyroid and IBS but I wouldn't like anyone to say come our forum it cures thyroid condition's and IBS it's unfair and not true.

I heartily disagree. For one thing, I've come across numerous testimonials on the web claiming that the primal diet etc.  cured their  various cancers. I've even come across some people claiming that a raw animal food diet got rid of the standard symptoms of a genetic illness(eg:- grave's disease, in one case).

Secondly, healing on a rawpalaeodiet can take years(especially if someone is old, having eaten processed foods for decades), but it can also heal some people very quickly - witness the numerous comments on the various boards re sudden increases in health after doing just a few weeks of a raw animal food diet(and remember, not everyone who starts this diet is deathly ill, some are just a bit ill, beforehand). I admit people make mistakes - I took c. 8 months to get to the right raw-diet-combination, but once I was on the right track, re removing raw dairy etc., all my most painful symptoms vanished quickly within 4 months after that. Granted , it took another c.1.5 to 2 years or so to get rid of absolutely  all issues, but that is merely me as an individual - others take much less time to heal, depending on their condition.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2009, 05:53:38 am »
My opinion is that the proper way to deal with advertising rpd's ability to heal would be to allow people to tell their own stories and use any relevant scientific information, but to not overstep either of these in generalizing what it can do.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2009, 06:09:08 am »
I find a lot of your so called "healing", sperm counts, chicks talk off-putting to put it mildly.

If increase in sperm count puts you off, I'm sorry you feel that way, but that is not my intention.  

If the word "chicks" bother you, I'm sorry about the cultural difference, maybe "chicks" is a bad word in your culture?

If you suffered and conquered infertility like me and my wife did, you would try anything and everything.  I'm just sharing my true experience with raw oysters that increased my sperm count 300%.  Just sharing our happiness and success.  http://www.fertilityhelp.net/hip-hip-hooray-after-almost-13-mos-of-trying-we-are-pregnant

On top of this why not post your own picture insted of your poor son having to hold his head in for you?

It's a cultural thing among parents, at least in my country.  We'd rather use the photos of our children as our avatars.  My wife's picture on facebook is also one of our children.  When you become a parent, you'll probably post your childrens' pics instead of yours.  ;D

Lex has always been most reliable, trustworthy and down to earth with all his comments on the paleo life-style; he does not drift off in all kinds of directions (detox, so called "raw healing", AV, sperm counts, chicks...).

I'm not trying to be like Lex.

Lex in his journal also mentioned that he had a colonoscopy examination and the MD said his colon was like a 20 year old's colon.  That was truly inspiring... in the same lines of healing testimonials.

----------------

My opinion is that the proper way to deal with advertising rpd's ability to heal would be to allow people to tell their own stories and use any relevant scientific information, but to not overstep either of these in generalizing what it can do.

Nice reminder, Kyle.  Here's my story...



I used to be really, really sick...

The same stuff you see on my face was also all over my left arm, and putting python bile on my left arm cured it overnight. In 2005 when we did this, python was not an endangered species.  We bought our python gall bladders from a restaurant that served python. I watched my left arm clear up before my very eyes, I stayed up all night watching the python bile cure my left arm, it was amazing.  Very sound detox principles, my own gall bladder was constipated, and on the suggestion of my anthroposophic doctor, led me to liver flushing with olive oil which healed me even further.

Even without raw food, the detox techniques I learned healed me a lot... but only as far as it could go.

I got into raw foods because a cooked diet with just detoxes wasn't enough to heal me. Raw vegan wasn't enough, raw fruitarian wasn't enough, fasting wasn't enough, RPD was the clincher (stumbled onto Wai Diet).

Aajonus Vonderplanitz' 2 books are all about healing (including detoxing) with raw food.  I only got the idea of eating raw land animal meat from Aajonus.  I owe him that.  I also owe Geoff for teaching me RPD because raw dairy wasn't working for me.  RPD completed my healing.  

I'm trying to cure my eldest son's tooth decay and primary complex now (probably caused by our previous drift to vegetarianism);  following the book http://www.curetoothdecay.com which has a lot of raw animals in it recommended.  Wodgina's testimonial of his tooth decay cure / remineralization inspired me to do this for my son. 

If RPD had no healing value for me I would have never been interested in it.  

« Last Edit: May 09, 2009, 07:25:13 am by goodsamaritan »
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Offline wodgina

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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2009, 12:10:11 pm »
I did have a hole in my tooth which has appeared to fill up and smooth over. There's still a divet. I also get white gritty mineral? which appears to stick to the back of my teeth now and is hard to scrap off.

Geoff I still don't know anyone who has cured terminal illness on RPD I have heard some on the primal diet but a lot of cancers disappear on their own accord and a lot of people die of old age before cancer has the chance to get em'.

I think testimonials are a great advertisment for this diet.


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Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2009, 01:38:48 pm »
I agree with Tyler that most people are drawn to any significant change in lifestyle due to health issues. As he was, so was I. I also agree that most peoples health will improve on a paleo style diet.  My problem is with suggesting or prescribing specific foods, protocols, or herbal remedies etc. to cure specific diseases or terminal illness.  We have no business making any recommendations here other than to say that following good dietary principal is vital to maintaining good health and people are free to experiment and discuss within the bounds of what we believe is the best approach which is a paleo lifestyle.  

I believe that Kyle has the correct approach in that we tell our tales, within the limits of what the paleo lifestyle has accomplished for us, and let people decide for themselves.  Guidance should be in the area of what foods constitute "paleo" and what foods don't as well as our reasoning behind excluding or including food categories.  Our personal  experiences with transitioning to these foods is certainly valid and as GS says, often inspirational as is discussing overall health improvements from adopting this lifestyle.

This is completely different than specifying what foods heal what ailment, or what herbal remedy will cure a specific health issue etc.  In my case I have made a personal choice to eat a zero carb diet.  I have detailed my own adventure which includes significant health improvements. I've also given my reasoning as to why I believe zero carb is probably a valid variation of a paleo diet, however, I don't think I've ever prescribed my specific eating habits as a cure for any specific health issue to anyone.  I've only chronicled my own experience.

I also respect the focus of this board as being related to PALEO diets and lifestyles and don't discuss issues like "curing" illnesses with Colonel Sander's 11 herbs and spices, python piss, and pig guts.  What I would talk about is that pig guts are probably good nutritional food from a paleo standpoint and any other claims for them such as curing illness are irrelevant to paleo.  Seasoning food with culinary herbs and spices may be helpful for people transitioning to a paleo diet, but making claims that specific herbs cure specific illness is not appropriate.  I wouldn't discuss python bile at all.  It has no relevance to the topic of this forum.  Penicillin cures infections as do sulfa drugs, but curing infections is not what this forum is about so I don't discuss these either.  I also don't direct people to come to this forum to discuss cures for their infections, that's not what we are about.

Better health is often a benefit of eating a better diet - in fact it is the very foundation.  Poor health often results from eating improper foods.  We can make general cases for including meat and fat, (and maybe even a bit of fruit on occasion), and excluding vegetables, grains, and dairy.  We can do this by discussing our own experiences with these categories of foods.  We can discuss our experiences with cooked vs raw.  And I think we can safely say that MOST people will experience some improvement in health.  But to suggest specific foods, herbal remedies, or protocols to cure specific illnesses is out of bounds as far as I'm concerned.

GS may indeed have improved an infertility problem by changing his diet.  No problem with statements like this.  However, to offer a diet of specific foods, herbal supplements, and new age protocols as a CURE for infertility or anything else is just wrong.  Herbal supplements, and new age protocols have nothing to do with the topic of this board and we are not here to offer cures for specific diseases.  Rather we should focus on "demonstrating" through our own examples, that the core foundation of health is based on what you eat.  Eat the proper foods and the rising tide of overall improved health should have a positive effect on all body functions.

GS, if you cut out all that fruit you eat (eating fruit for hydration is not paleo and bombards your body with large jolts of sugar - drink water for hydration instead), and send your vegetable juicer to the landfill where it belongs (juicing is not paleo and you'll be getting rid of all those plant alkaloids and anti-nutirents), you might find you don't need that python stuff (certainly not paleo) anymore and you can throw your liver flushes, colon cleansers, and herbal remedies in the rubbish bin as well.  Just eat a real paleo style diet to give your body the best nutrition possible and let it take care of itself without all your silly meddling.  This is not a specific prescription to cure anything, just a challange to reduce or eliminate non paleo foods from your diet (that's what this forum is about), and see what happens over the long haul.  I'd really be interested in reading about the changes your body goes through in your journal and compare them with my experiences.  I'm sure others would as well.

Just a thought.....

Lex        
« Last Edit: May 09, 2009, 01:51:40 pm by lex_rooker »

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2009, 05:33:12 pm »
First of all, it's perfectly legitimate to claim the theory "like cures like". In other words, if someone has a damaged liver due to some disease, then it's perfectly legitimate to suggest to that person that he should eat healthy, raw livers from grassfed/organic/wild etc. animals as it is reasonably logical to assume that the nutrients from such a healthy liver could be reused by the person in question to rebuild his own liver. So (pastured) raw pig guts would be good for someone with damaged guts of their own etc. Naturally, of course, any such suggestion would have to be accompanied by a suggestion to also eat other raw foods as well - just eating raw liver alone for weeks would not be enough to maintain overall health.

Secondly, one of THE most common questions I've been faced with by RPDers is ":- I have multiple sclerosis/cancer etc., what foods do you recommend. Then, it is prefectly legitimate for me to point to concerns and studies linking grain-and-dairy consumption to multiple sclerosis, linking consumption of heat-created toxins to cancer via more studies etc. It is also legitimate for me to suggest a person eats raw liver if they have liver cancer, as mentioned above.

Also, people have asked me and others in the past how to cure a specific infection. Indeed, I seem to recall I  did so in the early days.I'd have been most annoyed if I'd never gotten an answer due to overly rigid rules.


As regards herbal medicine, most of herbal medicine has already been widely substantiated in terms of both millenia of folklore and recent  scientific studies. About the only herb which hasn't has been echinacea, last I checked. I'll grant that most modern herbal supplements are useless being highly processed, but raw wild herbs such as dandelion and hundreds of others have proven uses, and even herbal teas, provided they aren't heated too much. If you doubt that, try taking any raw wild herb(in sizeable amounts),  known to cause excessive urination(I think dandelion counts?) and see what happens!

Re infertility:-Raw oysters have been widely reported by many RAFers in the past as benefitting their sperm-count/sexual activity(and not just RAFers) - I'm just one in a long line. So, again, it's perfectly OK, given that, to recommend raw oysters for infertility/sexual activity, provided it's not a 100% raw oyster-filled diet.

Re last paragraph or so:- This  demonstrates a rather pro-zero-carb bias as being behind all the recent arguments, re the damning of fruit for hydration etc.. The fact is that most people in the world,define "palaeo" as a diet consisting of fruit, veg, meat and a rawpalaeo version would merely include raw versions of both. Now the ratios of raw plant-food within the Palaeolithic diet may be defined by a member as  anywhere from 35% to 0%, but that is up to each forum member to decide.
I see no harm in mentioning alternative healing practices as long as they're put in the off-topic forum where they belong. I mean take the alexander technique which teaches good posture - now good posture was a characteristic of palaeo times, as they had no chairs and wouldn't have needed any alexander technique, but we live in an artificial world filled with beds and chairs etc. so may have need for alternative practices that mimic palaeo ways or whatever.

« Last Edit: May 10, 2009, 09:52:24 pm by TylerDurden »
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2009, 05:47:25 pm »
Case in point. On the other forum, someone asked about sunburn and aloe vera was mentioned by 1 person and I agreed, having had success with it, myself. So, I don't see how herbal medicine can simply be left out as it's such a palaeo characteristic.
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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2009, 09:35:50 pm »
I would say that recommending a plant or animal food that is within the bounds of the paleo diet would be more paleo than recommending a drug for curing an infection. Paleo people certainly COULD have used snake whatever to treat something. They probably didn't, or not very much.

Having said that, the legitimacy of this forum would be highest imo if it stuck to dietary talk as much as possible and didn't delve very far into anything else like curing illness.

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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2009, 12:58:25 am »
GS, if you cut out all that fruit you eat (eating fruit for hydration is not paleo and bombards your body with large jolts of sugar - drink water for hydration instead), and send your vegetable juicer to the landfill where it belongs (juicing is not paleo and you'll be getting rid of all those plant alkaloids and anti-nutirents), you might find you don't need that python stuff (certainly not paleo) anymore and you can throw your liver flushes, colon cleansers, and herbal remedies in the rubbish bin as well.  Just eat a real paleo style diet to give your body the best nutrition possible and let it take care of itself without all your silly meddling.  This is not a specific prescription to cure anything, just a challange to reduce or eliminate non paleo foods from your diet (that's what this forum is about), and see what happens over the long haul.  I'd really be interested in reading about the changes your body goes through in your journal and compare them with my experiences.  I'm sure others would as well.

Just a thought.....

Lex        

I completely agree with Lex.  I have been zero carb (more or less with a bit of herb and seaweed for seasoning) for one month now.  My skin, size, sleep and attitude have all improved.  RVAF alone never did as much.  I will never go back to eating plants except perhaps in isolated social settings ... maybe.  I find that I have many many issues of reactions to plant foods (fruits included), now that I know what living without them is like.  I don't even drink coffee and have almost booted tea completely out of my life.  The less meddling - bombarding the system with all sorts of different stuff, the better.  All fruit these days is NEOLITHIC as it has been bred to be bigger and sweeter.  But no use trying to convince the powers that be here.  There are no superfoods, there is only sustenance.  Our brains grew bigger during the Paleolithic on animal foods, not bananas and coconuts.

This forum has gone to hell in a handbag.  Until you can start discussing rpd - which does include zero carb diets, btw - I am afraid it will just deteriorate further. 
« Last Edit: May 10, 2009, 02:04:40 am by Satya »

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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2009, 01:19:49 am »
First of all, it's perfectly legitimate to claim the theory "like cures like". In other words, if someone has a damaged liver due to some disease, then it's perfectly legitimate to suggest to that person that he should eat healthy, raw livers from grassfed/organic/wild etc. animals as it is reasonably logical to assume that the nutrients from such a healthy liver could be reused by the person in question to rebuild his own liver. So (pastured) raw pig guts would be good for someone with damaged guts of their own etc. Naturally, of course, any such suggestion would have to be accompanied by a suggestion to also eat other raw foods as well - just eating raw liver alone for weeks would not be enough to maintain overall health.

I think think you are correct that the theory of like-cures-like is probably something our paleo ancestors would have believed.  Want a strong heart then eat the heart.  Want to be more virile then eat gonads.  Want to please the gods, sacrifice a virgin...etc... etc.  Silly based on what we know today, but mostly harmless - except of course - if you're the virgin on the chopping block.

The key here is your last sentence. Eating liver alone would not maintain overall health.  As paleo we'd most likely be consuming some liver as part of our diet anyway so it should be a mute point. It's the overall package of what we do, not the fact that we consumed some liver.  My advice to someone asking would be to consume a wide variety of all parts of the animal as we have evidence that our ancestors did this.  If you start to feel better then you've probably filled some of the nutritional gap from your previous diet.  

Secondly, one of THE most common questions I've been faced with by RPDers is ":- I have multiple sclerosis/cancer etc., what foods do you recommend. Then, it is perfectly legitimate for me to point to concerns and studies linking grain-and-dairy consumption to multiple sclerosis, linking consumption of heat-created toxins to cancer via more studies etc. It is also legitimate for me to suggest a person eats raw liver if they have liver cancer, as mentioned above.

I agree with everything except the last sentence.  The problems that paleo can help with are overall nutritional deficiencies and eating a WIDE VARIETY of paleo foods (whatever the person accepts these to be) is the proper approach rather than insisting that a specific food will cure a specific health issue.  I do believe that it is proper to indicate that a 'wide variety' includes the organ meats like liver, kidney, spleen. heart, tongue, brain, etc as well as the more common muscle meats.

Also, people have asked me and others in the past how to cure a specific infection. Indeed, I seem to recall I  did so in the early days. I'd have been most annoyed if I'd never gotten an answer due to overly rigid rules.

I'm not suggesting ridged rules other than to not make claims of specific foods curing specific conditions.  We have no proof that most of these things have any value whatsoever, and we don't know the real condition of the person asking the question.  My approach leans more towards giving the body the nutrients it needs to function properly and it will do the best it can to make its own repairs.  Magic elixirs and herbal remedies just give people a false sense that they can continue poor behaviors, and then take a 'remedy' that will fix everything.  We see this with GS who says that members of his family are facing some health challenges but won't eat paleo.  He's attempting to solve the problems with magic herbs and wonder supplements.    This is counter to everything that paleo is about.

I find it interesting that GS insists that high fruit intake is a good thing, yet his children are suffering tooth decay.  Tooth decay has increased in the USA exponentially over the last few decades as concerned moms want to give their children those wonderful, healthful, vitamin filled, "organic" fruit juices that are just loaded with sugar.  Many studies have been done that prove this cause and effect relationship.

As regards herbal medicine, most of herbal medicine has already been widely substantiated in terms of both millenia of folklore and recent  scientific studies. About the only herb which hasn't has been echinacea, last I checked. I'll grant that most modern herbal supplements are useless being highly processed, but raw wild herbs such as dandelion and hundreds of others have proven uses, and even herbal teas, provided they aren't heated too much. If you doubt that, try taking any raw wild herb(in sizeable amounts),  known to cause excessive urination(I think dandelion counts?) and see what happens!

I think that what as been substantiated is that many of the alkaloids that we have concentrated into pill form occur naturally in plants.  I think  the point should be that, given proper nutrition, our bodies don't need these alkaloids for health.  All that most of these substances do is mask the symptoms but don't do anything at all to correct the underlying problem.  I suppose that a tea made from crushed willow bark will help relieve a headache since it contains the active substance in aspirin, however, I've found that I no longer got the headaches when I ate a more paleo diet so the 'natural' plant alkaloids were no longer needed to cover up the symptoms of my previous poor dietary choices.

Re infertility:-Raw oysters have been widely reported by many RAFers in the past as benefitting their sperm-count/sexual activity(and not just RAFers) - I'm just one in a long line. So, again, it's perfectly OK, given that, to recommend raw oysters for infertility/sexual activity, provided it's not a 100% raw oyster-filled diet.

Most of us have found that libido increases dramatically on a raw paleo diet - including one without oysters.  You may be correct that non RAFers feel that oysters help in this area, however, if they were eating proper foods in the first place, oysters would not be necessary.  They wold just be another raw food in our paleo diet.

Re last paragraph or so:- This demonstrates a rather pro-zero-carb bias as being behind all the recent arguments, re the damning of fruit for hydration etc.. The fact is that most people in the world,define "palaeo" as a diet consisting of fruit, veg, meat and a rawpalaeo version would merely include raw versions of both. Now the ratios of raw plant-food within the Palaeolithic diet may be defined by a member as  anywhere from 35% to 0%, but that is up to each forum member to decide.
I see no harm in mentioning alternative healing practices as long as they're put in the off-topic forum where they belong. I mean take the Alexander technique which teaches good posture - now good posture was a characteristic of palaeo times, as they had no chairs and wouldn't have needed any Alexander technique, but we live in an artificial world filled with beds and chairs etc. so may have need for alternative practices that mimic palaeo ways or whatever.

As I said in my previous post, my personal choice has been zero carb and therefore have made my personal bias very clear.  I think this is as it should be - no hidden agendas.  If you read carefully, you should also find that I indicated that including a bit of fruit on occasion is probably acceptable as well. In fact, when asked for a recommendation on how to transition to a paleo diet, I will recommend a small amount of fruit or even a small green salad be included.  The key here being in the word "small", and my definition for this is ONE small to medium piece of whole fruit (or the equivalent, like a cup of cherries, or small bunch of grapes) or (not AND!) 1 to 2 cups of green salad as a snack per day.  I think that most of us have found that grains, dairy, and most vegetables (especially vegetable juices) cause major problems.  I'm also of a mind that consuming large amounts of modern sweet fruits (or their juices) year round is not the best choice.  GS and his family consume large amounts of fruit and juice as part of their normal daily diet.  They also seem to be reaping the expected results of this behavior in the form of tooth decay and less than optimal overall health.  Magic herbs and supplements will not solve the underlying cause of these problems - you must stop the incorrrect behavior.  I know, I spent 20 years of suffering with health issues and attempting to address them with "natural" remedies and can tell you first hand that it is a total waste of time.

Lex
« Last Edit: May 10, 2009, 03:48:03 am by lex_rooker »

 

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