Author Topic: Mental/Emotional/Moral Transition  (Read 7325 times)

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Offline Audrey

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Mental/Emotional/Moral Transition
« on: May 11, 2009, 07:31:45 am »
Hi everyone! I am wondering if I can hear from some of you who have made the transition from vegetarian/vegan to RPD. I have been a vegetarian for 6 years, and I have been mostly raw vegan/vegetarian for the last 3, but so far my quest for a healthy diet has not been satisfying. I am supplementing 4000-6000 mg of fish oil a day right now just to keep my skin normal which I feel is ridiculous for supposedly being on a "healthy" diet. I do not want to supplement at all.

I have actually been having cravings for raw meat since last fall (although I'm not even sure what it tastes like). I think about eating raw meat, but I am having a hard time getting myself there mentally after abstaining from it for so long. I want nothing to do with cooked meat at all. The thought and smell of cooking meat is terrible to me, so I will not use that to transition. I have been able to eat raw egg yolks with ease, but I'd like to move beyond that. I can handle the idea of raw dairy, but I don't digest that well at all.

For those of you who switched from no meat, how did you do it? Did you just go for it? Did you ease in? Was it difficult to get past your former beliefs about meat?

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Mental/Emotional/Moral Transition
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2009, 10:18:50 am »
When my brother was terribly sick 2 years ago he was taking a lot of those fish oil / omega 3 supplements.

We replaced his fish oil supplements with the real thing: raw tuna sashimi (wild ocean fish common in our country), he felt instantly better the following day he stopped shivering from feeling too cold.  And of course eventually his psoriasis was cured.

Re dairy, I don't digest it myself, though I've tried several times.

I did vegan for 2 months and then fruitarian for 2 months... I was too cold ( at 25 degrees celsius ) and too thin, a long term fruitarian told me I'd adjust in 5 years... I felt that was ridiculous, 5 years?  I trawled the internet and found the Wai Diet and found Aajonus Vonderplanitz and when I added raw fish and raw eggs to my diet I felt really good.  Raw fish was easy for me to consume because we ate sashimi even during my SAD days.  And of course I gained weight.  I took my time adjusting and lessening the fruits in favor of more meat and fat.

High fat low carb feels much more comfy with steady energy levels instead of the up and down yoyo blood sugar levels on high carb low fat.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2009, 10:28:45 am by goodsamaritan »
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Offline invisible

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Re: Mental/Emotional/Moral Transition
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2009, 05:41:46 pm »
rather interestingly enough I never had a "transition" period. I simply got a plate of 2 pounds of raw meat, ate it and enjoyed it. I was pretty convinced that raw meat was what I should be eating even before I tried it though so I was actually looking forward to trying it. Regarding bacteria I never really feared it, was more curious if anything whether I would get sick or not.

On that note maybe you should just dive right in. Maybe spend a bit more money at the start by buying the better more flavored cuts of meat when you first start. Porterhouse steak is my favourite, but now I can eat any cut of meat and enjoy the flavour.

Offline Josh

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Re: Mental/Emotional/Moral Transition
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2009, 06:20:26 pm »
Maybe it would help to consider that if you buy organic grass fed meat, you're actively promoting a good life for those animals.

As a newbie, I would second the suggestions of steak or sashimi...I found minced beef very hard to take.

Offline Audrey

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Re: Mental/Emotional/Moral Transition
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2009, 10:02:36 pm »
Thank you for the replies. It does help me to think that organic, grassfed animals were able to live a better life. Really, farming in general disturbs me. The concept seems cruel. If I could find all wild meat, I would feel much better about that.

Offline invisible

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Re: Mental/Emotional/Moral Transition
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2009, 05:12:35 am »
Grass fed organic animals would live better, happier lives than wild animals i.e. not having to worry about predators, and have a much more pleasant death. The way animals for example lions kill their prey in the wild is horrific, traumatic and extremely painful as uncensored footage shows. Footage can be found on youtube. Nature is not always nice, but why sacrifice your own health for some pointless rebellion?

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Mental/Emotional/Moral Transition
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2009, 05:29:33 am »
Audrey,
Many of us have come from a vegan/rawvegan/vegetarian background.  I stupidly followed raw vegan for about 20 years, even as it was clear that my heath was declining.

I have some cherished beliefs about what works and what doesn't.  Understand that these are my beliefs not facts.  I think I have experiences that supports my beliefs and the choices I've made, however, diet, much less a paleo diet is not a black and white issue.

My current personal choice is totally zero carb - no plant foods at all.  I didn't arrive here over night however.  It took time for me to work through various transitions phases and I suggest that you take the same approach.

My first phase was to eat only the "types" of foods that would have been available in the paleo period.  So the first thing I did was cut out all grains, beans, potatoes, etc and substituted lightly cooked meat for these.  I then ate large amounts of fresh fruits and green vegetables - remember, I'm coming from a vegan background and still believe that I must have large amounts of plant foods for fiber, antioxidants, vitamins, and minerals.  I also had a fat phobia and eating much fat would make me gag.  Essentially I was eating mostly plant based foods (large salads and lots of fruit) with maybe 8 oz to 12 oz of lean meat per day.

My health started to improve, but it wasn't as dramatic as I thought it would be based on all the fabulous stories and claims I'd read on the web for going paleo.  I continued reading and studying and finally came to the conclusion that I had the ratio of plant foods to meat reversed.  I should be eating most of my calories from meat and fat with small amounts of fruits and veggies to supplement - (because you need all that fiber, antioxidants, vitamins, and minerals).  This was phase two and it took me a while to transition - maybe 6 months or so - as I cut down on fruit and veggies and increased my meat intake and started eating more fat (yuk!).  I finally got to where I was eating one small piece of fruit OR a very small salad (but not both) each day and got most of my energy from eating about 1 1/2 lbs of fatty meat.

My health improved dramatically eating lots of meat and very limited amounts of fruits and veggies (for the fiber, vitamins.....etc).  I then started reading about the differences between grass fed animals and grain fed animals.  Grass fed animals have between a 1 to 1 and 4 to 1 ratio of Omega 3 fatty acids.  Grain fed animals have 30:1 ratio - in other words almost no omega 3 at all.  This got me looking for a source of grass fed meats.  There are several suppliers, US Wellness Meats, North Star Bison, Slankers et. al.  Today I do most of my ordering from Slankers as I've found their prices consistently lower than the others.  I still cooked my meat lightly, say medium rare most of the time.

Then I ran across the RVAF forum on Yahoo run by Geoff Purcell.  Wonderful resource and you won't find a nicer person than Geoff.  He masquerades on this forum as TylerDurdan and does an incredible job of moderating this forum as well.  Anyway, there were some links to some articles written by Steffannson in Harper's around 1936 or so.  In it Steffanson talks about his adventure with the Inuits and surviving on meat, fat, and water for years at a time while maintaining perfect health.  This was a bit hard for an old raw vegan to swallow.  After all you need fruits and vegetables for fiber, antioxidants, vitamins and .... you get the idea.  Steffanson discussed his test under medical supervision of Bellview Hospital in New York, where he and an associate only at meat for a year.  Bottom line is that they were healthier at the end of the year than when they started.

This got me to have the courage to try this same experiment myself.  I told my doctor what I was going to do and he about had a cow.  I was suffering from early stage diabetes, high cholesterol, high blood pressure, and a few other maladies, and he was sure a diet of all meat would give me a quick send off to the great beyond.  I told him I was going to try it and that was that.  I left him shaking his head.

As I started into the meat only phase, I felt that grass fed was critical.  I figured that I should be eating animals that were eating their natural diet of grass if I was to get proper nutrition.  I also began to feel that no other animal eats its food cooked and figured that we should be eating our food raw as well.  This raw thing was not easy.  I was still having a lot of trouble eating much fat as any piece that was very large would cause me to gag.  I also found that regular finely ground meat was like eating paste.  Raw meat doesn't have a lot of flavor and when ground with a good bit of fat is like eating thick oatmeal - not very appealing.  I added spices, (salt, pepper, garlic powder, chili) in an attempt to make the meat more appealing.  

When I found Slankers, they had a very course ground meat that they called "Chili" meat and this turned out perfect for me.  The chunks were big enough to chew and when the meat wasn't cooked it was difficult to tell the difference between the fat and the lean.  About this time I also felt that there was probably a need for some organ meats and Slankers has a Pet food product called "Dog & Cat" that is not USDA inspected and not sold for human consumption, but does contain all the cast off organ meats.  I started ordering this and mixing a bit in with the Chili meat.  The D&C is very strong tasting so a little goes a long way when you are first starting out.  I'm no longer convinced that the organ meats are as vital as I once thought they were so if you don't like them don't agonize over it.  I still include the D&C in my daily food but this is more as "insurance" than really being convinced of their necessity.  I've also become very accustomed to the more robust taste that the organ meats add and find plain meat very bland.

The fat level in the Chili meat is also too low so I order about 12 lbs of suet with 50 lbs of meat and then chop and divide the fat equally for each meal.  This adds about 3 1/2 oz of fat to each pound of meat and brings the overall fat content up to about 20% by weight which is 68% to 70% of calories from fat, which I find works well for me.

I go to my doctor for a checkup each year and he's been amazed by the results of my dietary adventure.  My diabetes condition went away, my cholesterol dropped from 237 to 189, my weight dropped from 215 to 160, my blood pressure dropped from 145/95 to 110/65, and every other health condition either went away or dramatically improved to the point where no medication is needed.

The above is generally the way I moved through the various transitional phases from vegan to carnivore.  Might I suggest that you take a similar approach and go one step at a time.  Read my journal and the journal of others here and you'll get a very good feel for what to expect.  Zero Carb has ended up working well for me but then to be honest, a small serving of fruit OR a small "dinner" salad daily is probably fine as well and would produce similar results.  I haven't eaten any plant foods for several years now and I know others who have eaten only meat for many years and none of us have any deficiencies and we don't miss the "fiber" in our diets either.  I'm also not "married" to Zero Carb.  If I find that it is creating unforeseen problems in the future, I'll change whatever is necessary to plug the hole.

You will experience challenges along the way as your body adapts to the changes you decide to make.  I think you'll find a great amount of support which will help ease your way, and may even give you the courage to try things you'd never even considered before.

If any of us can answer specific questions for you please just post or PM.

Lex



« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 05:37:53 am by lex_rooker »

Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: Mental/Emotional/Moral Transition
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2009, 07:26:39 am »
I also came from raw vegan with a transition threw eating some raw dairy and eggs into eating raw meat. I think it was lamb and I was pretty afraid of it in a strange way. I was afraid the taste would be bad and that I might get sick. It's hard to explain, I didn't really think I would get sick, but social conditioning was giving me an almost unconscious reaction to it in the form of fear. Lamb is a little weird tasting but all in all I found it not so bad. Then after that I tried a million ways of eating different cuts of meat to try and make it more appealing, eventually landing on my preferred method which is to be either thin cuts or cubes of red meat and cut them into smallish bite size pieces. I then take some hide fat or suet and cut that into similar size pieces, and usually put two together in each bite. I actually prefer the taste and texture of combining the muscle and fat together in every bite more than either of the two alone now.

As far as morals, my cat led me to change my mind about eating meat. I got a cat and fed him raw meat, because that's his natural diet. I was vegan at the time, and would have felt bad eating meat myself, but that's his natural diet, you know? So therefore it can't be bad, he was just made that way. Once I got my head around that, all I needed to learn was that humans are built to eat meat, not quite as carnivorous as a cat but closer to that than to the fruit eating primates raw vegans try to emulate. Of course I do not support factory farms or any other sort of environmentally damaging and pointlessly cruel farming endeavors. Price wasn't as issue either, as with these high quality farms like Slanker's and my local co op in Pennsylvania Dutch Country I can get cubes of grass fed beef for between $4.50 and $6.00/lb and suet for about $2.00/lb. If I could stomach the dog and cat mix like lex I could eat on the extreme cheap, but as it is now I could easily eat for under $20 a day and also feed my cat, including shipping.

Offline Nicola

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Re: Mental/Emotional/Moral Transition
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2009, 07:34:50 pm »
I also came from raw vegan with a transition threw eating some raw dairy and eggs into eating raw meat. I think it was lamb and I was pretty afraid of it in a strange way. I was afraid the taste would be bad and that I might get sick. It's hard to explain, I didn't really think I would get sick, but social conditioning was giving me an almost unconscious reaction to it in the form of fear. Lamb is a little weird tasting but all in all I found it not so bad. Then after that I tried a million ways of eating different cuts of meat to try and make it more appealing, eventually landing on my preferred method which is to be either thin cuts or cubes of red meat and cut them into smallish bite size pieces. I then take some hide fat or suet and cut that into similar size pieces, and usually put two together in each bite. I actually prefer the taste and texture of combining the muscle and fat together in every bite more than either of the two alone now.


I do just that too and have noticed a difference in the way I feel the next day just from hide fat vs. suet! I like them both but they give me a different gut feeling. Hide fat seems to give me a more expanded feeling (bloat?) and with suet I feel cut. Marrow gives me a super expanded feeling so I don't ever eat much of it.
I have also observed a difference with drinking alkaline ionized water vs. just purified water and even between swimming indoors and going outdoors as I have been the last 3 days.

Nicola

Offline Audrey

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Re: Mental/Emotional/Moral Transition
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2009, 08:27:39 pm »
Lex- Thanks for such a great reply. I'm glad you have found something that works so well for you now. It's interesting that so many come from a raw vegan/vegan/veg. background. I see many people in the raw vegan world who do not look so healthy (although many do seem to thrive...). A lot of them have such bad skin, are much too thin, and have dark circles under their eyes. It seems that every other post in the forums is about what health problems people are experiencing as a result of their diet. People will insist that if your health is not great on raw vegan, you are "doing it wrong." It was becoming far too complicated for me. I tried all fruit and did horrible. I actually gained weight eating all that fruit, my teeth became sensitive and formed cavities. I did better as I added more fat and cut down on sugar, but still not great. I am thinner and have more energy with more fat. I really enjoy fruits and vegetables, so I will still eat them for now, but I am keeping an open mind.

Kyle- I have been feeding my dog raw meat for quite a few months now. It at least introduced me to having meat in my house again. At first I couldn't even touch it without gloves, hah, but now I am just fine to handle it. She is very grateful to me for feeding her what she needs.

I do understand that meat may be my natural diet and all is a part of the circle of life, but I am still struggling with karmic and moral beliefs despite. It may be a long process for me.

Right now, I am just getting myself used to animal products again. I am experimenting with some different raw dairy products-- kefir, butter, cream-- to see how I digest them compared to milk, and I am continuing with raw eggs. I feel significantly better just adding these in from a raw vegan diet.

$20 a day for food is a lot of money... I am getting ready to move out of the country (to Mexico), and I will be paid according to their economy so I doubt I can order from any American company. Maybe I can find a local source there.

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Re: Mental/Emotional/Moral Transition
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2009, 01:51:22 am »
I do understand that meat may be my natural diet and all is a part of the circle of life, but I am still struggling with karmic and moral beliefs despite. It may be a long process for me.

Audrey, this article really helped me come to grips when I left veganism.  It''s called The Ethics of Eating Meat. Best wishes.

http://westonaprice.org/healthissues/ethicsmeat.html

Offline Audrey

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Re: Mental/Emotional/Moral Transition
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2009, 02:37:11 am »
Thank you for that article, Satya. It has given me some more things to consider, and I see how eating meat can be very harmonious.

I especially like what it says about feeling sadness for the animals. If I start to eat meat, I can imagine that I would feel deeply for the animal I am eating at every single meal. Just the thought is stirs me up emotionally. And, perhaps, it is a great thing to bring that much awareness and consciousness into what we eat. I certainly don't put that much consideration into an apple or a carrot.

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Mental/Emotional/Moral Transition
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2009, 05:07:55 am »
I see many people in the raw vegan world who do not look so healthy (although many do seem to thrive...). A lot of them have such bad skin, are much too thin, and have dark circles under their eyes. It seems that every other post in the forums is about what health problems people are experiencing as a result of their diet. People will insist that if your health is not great on raw vegan, you are "doing it wrong."

I fell for the same nonsense.  I even went on a very destructive 31 day "water only" fast because I was told my body was to toxic - what nonsense.  I almost died.  I also spent hours with the calculator and "Diet for a Small Planet" by Lapp, calculating all the mixtures of grains I'd need to make "complete" proteins.  It never occured to me that our paleo ancestors didn't have grains at all and certainly no calculators to assure a correct amino acid balance - again, total nonsense.

I do understand that meat may be my natural diet and all is a part of the circle of life, but I am still struggling with karmic and moral beliefs despite. It may be a long process for me.

I had many of the same issues.  When I first added meat back into my diet I couldn't stand the smell of it cooking - much less the thought of eating it raw.  It took many years to get my head on straight (and some here will testify that it's still not straight yet! ;D

Right now, I am just getting myself used to animal products again. I am experimenting with some different raw dairy products-- kefir, butter, cream-- to see how I digest them compared to milk, and I am continuing with raw eggs. I feel significantly better just adding these in from a raw vegan diet.

This is exactly the way you should proceed.  Take it one step at a time.  Many of us have discovered that dairy (raw or otherwise) causes us problems, but we never noticed it because other things we were eating were even worse and causing bigger problems.  Once we started removing the worst offenders, then the stuff like green juices, yogurts, kefir, milk, and other supposedly wonderful stuff were not as wonderful as we thought.  The transition is an evolutionary process - take it slowly.

$20 a day for food is a lot of money... I am getting ready to move out of the country (to Mexico), and I will be paid according to their economy so I doubt I can order from any American company. Maybe I can find a local source there.

I was lead to believe that eating a paleo diet full of meat would be expensive as well.  What I've found is that I can eat for about $10 a day - and that includes the shipping charges for the meat from Texas to California.  Most people spend that much on a fast food lunch every day.

Lex

Offline wodgina

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Re: Mental/Emotional/Moral Transition
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2009, 09:03:53 am »

If you eat only meat it's really cheap, fruit and vegetables are expensive and when I go shopping I buy meat, water and very rarely I'll buy dish washing liquid or something. That's it. No drinks or icecreams from service stations no eating out for lunch. No all night drinking sessions and taxi rides home.It's ridiculously cheap!

I seriously save at least 10 grand a year on this lifestyle compared to my old lifestyle, it could even be more.
“Integrity has no need of rules.”

Albert Camus

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Re: Mental/Emotional/Moral Transition
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2009, 10:43:15 am »
If you eat only meat it's really cheap, fruit and vegetables are expensive and when I go shopping I buy meat, water and very rarely I'll buy dish washing liquid or something. That's it. No drinks or icecreams from service stations no eating out for lunch. No all night drinking sessions and taxi rides home.It's ridiculously cheap!

I seriously save at least 10 grand a year on this lifestyle compared to my old lifestyle, it could even be more.

Yeah, no doubt about this.  I have all this extra money now that I eat no plant foods.  Andrew is not exaggerating a bit here.

And I have not felt this good since I was a teenager.  Today I did 2 hours of taekwondo.  My grandmaster watched my black belt forms and had very minor comments like, "You are looking to the next move to quickly."  Whereas before I would have balance problems on things like double side kick.  No more.  My performance is better than ever, and I have plenty of energy for sparring.  It is a total farce that we need carbs for anaerobic exercise.  My whole family is nearly zero carb.  DS 15 is like a serious martial arts contender.  He is going zc and wins tournaments and such. 

I will never go back.  I eat some seaweed once a week, and herbs and spices, else it's carnivore.  My skin is so smooth.  My sleep so deep.  My life has improved dramatically. 

Offline donrad

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Re: Mental/Emotional/Moral Transition
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2009, 11:30:03 pm »
These are some things I have done to go raw:

Put warmed ground meat in a wrap or taco. Warming it to about 100' does not cook it. Or mix it in salads or other foods you normally eat.

I chop liver and warm it with spices and diced onion. It's quite good. I also do this with brains.

Raw eggs in smoothies every morning. The high Omega 3 kind.

Dry the meat at 100' in a good dehydrator. Use your favorite spices. I seems to make the meat more palatable and socially acceptable. I cut it into bite size chunks and snack on it all day. I like to dry it just half way but have trouble with mold, even when it is refrigerated. I am going to experiment with freezing meal size portions.

Eat as much raw seafood as you can afford. Sushimi and ceviche. 

A great book is "Traditional Foods are Your Best Medicine" by Ronald Schmid.

Naturally, Don

 

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