Author Topic: How much better is fresh than frozen? Making NorthStar Bison order for organs  (Read 5556 times)

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Offline the6step

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I'm trying to buy some organ meats. I found this really excellent deal on NorthStarBison, but they only offer it as frozen:

hxxps://www.northstarbison.com/shop/meats/grass-fed-bison/organs-glands-bones/bison-organ-pack

That calculates to around $12 per pound of organs, and that's WITH shipping. That's insane. My thing is this.... you hear on this forum a lot that fresh is better than frozen. But then some people say that eating frozen isn't that bad. I can order all these items individually (to get them fresh) but most likely they'll be a lot more expensive. Thoughts?

Offline RogueFarmer

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Support your local farmer, Dexters are hardy like bison and are popular throughout the country.

Offline the6step

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I don't know what a dexter is, but if you have a specific suggestion for NYC let me know... metropolitan areas aren't specifically known for their love of grass fed organs.

I have a guy in Pennsylvania I used to order Raw Milk from. He sells some organs but not all of them, and definitely not Bison, definitely all frozen and not the cheapest. I know a place about 30 minutes from me that receives like 1 or 2 cows every week. I don't know how many livers a cow has but it doesn't seem practical to me to depend on that.

I essentially need high quality grass fed organ meats that can be delivered to NYC... that's alright not easy. So I'm going to stick with this for now. My original question still stands though.

Offline RogueFarmer

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They raise dexter cattle in nearby countryside New Jersey or NY is not far from rural areas really. Also there are buying clubs in NYC. If I still lived in NY I would sell you grass fed lamb organs.

Offline TylerDurden

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Northstar bison are reportedly  usually very customer-friendly. Just ignore written rules and ask the management if an exception can be made, maybe for slightly higher cost rather than a huge one.

The main issue with froen is that the taste is less good than with nonfrozen. Also, as soon as it thaws it loses nutrients at a much faster rate, due to ice-crystals disrupting cell-membranes. Other RPDers also claim that the enzymes in raw foods slowly deteriorate until they are gone after 10 Weeks of being frozen.It`s not the end of the world, imo. My rule of thumb is to accept dietary compromises if it takes too much effort to get hold of THE BEST RPD Foods, as one can otherwise spend too much time and effort on food, thus ruining other aspects of life, leding to orthorexia. I`ll even often fast if I cannot get what I want as a bare minimum. My point is that  factors such as 100% grassfed/no antiobiotics/no cooking are way more important than the prefrozen issue. That said, it is ALWAYS A good idea to spend a minimum small time each month looking for different varieties of RPD Foods and trying out different sources/supplies , as, per Instincto, one often gets tired of eating the same RPD Foods every week.Besides, the original Palaeolithic  diet was far more varied than just grassfed bison:beef for example.
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Offline Drengr

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Support your local farmer, Dexters are hardy like bison and are popular throughout the country.

Not really an option for me as I live in the desert. The closest ranch with grass fed meat is over 60 miles away and I'm not going to drive that far just to pick up meat.

Offline TylerDurden

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Not really an option for me as I live in the desert. The closest ranch with grass fed meat is over 60 miles away and I'm not going to drive that far just to pick up meat.
Some people might do so if it involved bringing back  one whole carcass that lasts for months in the freezer or, better still, chill-room.
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Offline Drengr

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Some people might do so if it involved bringing back  one whole carcass that lasts for months in the freezer or, better still, chill-room.

They don't include the organs or marrow, even with a "whole" carcass. Maybe if they did sell the organs or had more choices I would be willing to make the drive, but they only have big packs that come with cuts I don't like and they trim off pretty much all the fat.

Offline TylerDurden

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They don't include the organs or marrow, even with a "whole" carcass. Maybe if they did sell the organs or had more choices I would be willing to make the drive, but they only have big packs that come with cuts I don't like and they trim off pretty much all the fat.
The smaller the farmer, the more willing they usually are to change some rules.
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Offline eveheart

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I have also had very customer-friendly experience with North Star Bison, so call and see if they can accommodate your request.

If that doesn't work, go for smaller animals that are slaughtered on the ranch. I go to a ranch that slaughters the animal in front of the customer (on request) and gives you the whole animal. I get a lamb, quartered (fits in the car's trunk better this way) with the offal in a plastic bag. Ask if they have extra parts that other customers don't want, and expect to pay for the extras. A lamb is a month's meat for me, so I'm not driving all the time. Find other ranch items, like good eggs, while you're in the area.

A diagram helps to identify where the organs are, or just eat the whole animal.
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Offline ys

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I think Northstar is expensive.  I only buy pancreas from them as I can't find a better source.  For everything else I stick with beef.

Offline RogueFarmer

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They don't include the organs or marrow, even with a "whole" carcass. Maybe if they did sell the organs or had more choices I would be willing to make the drive, but they only have big packs that come with cuts I don't like and they trim off pretty much all the fat.

If they are selling halves and quarters basically they are selling you the animal and you are hiring the butcher. Ask the butcher.

Offline surfsteve

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I live off frozen organ meats and feel damn lucky I can even afford that. Grass fed is way out of my budget but when ever possible I opt for calf meat over beef because all cattle are normally grass fed anyway and not fed grain till they reach maturity at the last few weeks of their lives when they are shipped off to the feed lots to be fattened for market.

How bad can frozen be? Many species of fish and frogs are frozen live and continue to live after they thaw out in the spring.

I think both grass fed and unfrozen are severely over hyped. Probably due to marketing ploys and gullible consumers who will not only believe anything they hear but repeat it with authority like it was their own idea and embellish upon it the way kids do at the party game where you sit in a circle and repeat what the person next to you whispered till it goes around full circle and becomes nothing even remotely similar to what was originally said.

Offline TylerDurden

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Errr, grainfed really is bad. I have previously shown how advanced glycation end products, whch are toxins created by inflammation and cooking, are still present in rather high amounts in raw grainfed meat . Granted, the levels are even higher for cooked grainfed meats but still..... Grainfinished meats are only a small portion of the meat-industry as most meat is 100% grainfed other than the initiial milk component.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 03:21:45 am by TylerDurden »
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Offline surfsteve

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Yeah I suppose chicken, pork and even farmed fish is 100% grain fed from start to finish. Probably why I don't eat them. Last time I had farmed fish I got very sick after eating it. Swaii and talapia are two fish I hope I never eat again. At least with beef they are grass fed as calves and only finished on grains.

Got any links on data I can take a look at? It would be interesting to compare results obtained from the grass fed industry vs data from CAFA's of the two types of beef. I bet the results are highly prejudiced from both parties with the grass fed industry saying the difference is night and day and the CAFA's saying there is virtually no difference, while the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Offline TylerDurden

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http://www.eatwild.com/references.html

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3704564/table/T1/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3704564/



I am afraid there is not much data comparing the levels of AGEs in grassfed and grainfed foods. Generally-speaking, if it does not say so, assume that the food, however raw, is grainfed, soyfed or worse.Especially if the levels of AGEs are a third or more of the equivalent cooked version. AGEs-levels are a sign of inflammation. Very lowe levels of inflammation are natural in even healthy animals fed on raw natural foods, but high levels are a sign that the ingested food is of poor quality and is causing inflammation.
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Offline surfsteve

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Not buying that Advanced Glycogen End product AGE thing. Wheat is one of the worst foods for inflammation and is one of the lowest foods on the AGE scale. If it is correct we should all go around eating angel food cake and abandon our healthy life style in order to remain healthy! Not buying it at all unless maybe AGES are good for you in which case We all should be eating hot dogs because they are one of the highest.  Nope not buying it at all! Sounds like total junk science to me.

Offline TylerDurden

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No, it isn`t junk science, as there are now tens of thousands of studies proving that AGEs in foods cause increased aging , ill-health etc. There are, however, many other kinds of heat-derived toxins created by cooking/car-fumes etc. such as HCAs(heterocyclic amines , PAHs (polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons) etc. etc. And, obviously, wheat and dairy products are  unhealthy, even if raw(though some RPDers would dispute the raw dairy issue).
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Offline Drengr

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What about meat that's fed occasional grain? The place I buy elk from sometimes feeds them supplemental oats in the winter.

Offline surfsteve

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No, it isn`t junk science, as there are now tens of thousands of studies proving that AGEs in foods cause increased aging , ill-health etc. There are, however, many other kinds of heat-derived toxins created by cooking/car-fumes etc. such as HCAs(heterocyclic amines , PAHs (polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons) etc. etc. And, obviously, wheat and dairy products are  unhealthy, even if raw(though some RPDers would dispute the raw dairy issue).

If this is true than how do you explain the link you posted saying angel food cake only has an AGE factor of 8 per serving while raw nuts and beef are up in the 1000's? Something is wrong somewhere. I also recall that there was very little difference between some kinds of raw and cooked fish. Probably just enough to account for the shrinkage when cooking it. I'm only going the data you posted but something seemed very wrong with it!

Offline TylerDurden

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What about meat that's fed occasional grain? The place I buy elk from sometimes feeds them supplemental oats in the winter.
The ideal would be to go to a warmer climate where cattle are fed grass all year round. Or at the very least, hay during winter. I prefer buying raw wild game in winter when possible as that is way superior to grassfed of any kind. Besides, grassfed is too overpriced while raw wild game is much cheaper by comparison.
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Offline TylerDurden

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If this is true than how do you explain the link you posted saying angel food cake only has an AGE factor of 8 per serving while raw nuts and beef are up in the 1000's? Something is wrong somewhere. I also recall that there was very little difference between some kinds of raw and cooked fish. Probably just enough to account for the shrinkage when cooking it. I'm only going the data you posted but something seemed very wrong with it!
AGEs, like I said are just one factor. Cooked animal fats are the worst as regards producing the highest amounts of AGEs, with grainfed/soyfed cooked animal fats being the absolute worst. Other kinds of heat-derived toxins exist, and there are also allergies to non-palaeo foods to be considered, plus very toxic antinutrients found in wheat/grains and the excess  oestrogenic hormones in raw cows` dairy.
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Offline surfsteve

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Getting back to fresh vs frozen I thought I would try and find the answer how much better fresh was. I used google for that. I was expecting to find a bunch of articles saying that fresh was so much better but I was surprised to find that every single article said there was virtually little to no difference in nutrition. Most said that frozen was better but their reasons had more to do with practicality and convenience. Obviously our paleo ancestors didn't have freezers but the ones in cold climates did have access to mother natures giant deep freeze.

Why Frozen Fish May Be Better than Fresh
https://www.thespruce.com/frozen-fish-better-than-fresh-fish-1300625


Myth or Fact: Fresh Produce Is More Nutritious Than Frozen Produce
http://www.fitday.com/fitness-articles/nutrition/healthy-eating/myth-or-fact-fresh-produce-is-more-nutritious-than-frozen-produce.html

The Pros and Cons of Freezing Meats, Fish, And Produce
http://thepaleodiet.com/the-pros-and-cons-of-freezing-meats-fish-and-produce/

Fresh vs Frozen Food
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjsOOT347cA
 

Offline djr_81

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I don't know what a dexter is, but if you have a specific suggestion for NYC let me know... metropolitan areas aren't specifically known for their love of grass fed organs.

I have a guy in Pennsylvania I used to order Raw Milk from. He sells some organs but not all of them, and definitely not Bison, definitely all frozen and not the cheapest. I know a place about 30 minutes from me that receives like 1 or 2 cows every week. I don't know how many livers a cow has but it doesn't seem practical to me to depend on that.

I essentially need high quality grass fed organ meats that can be delivered to NYC... that's alright not easy. So I'm going to stick with this for now. My original question still stands though.
http://grazinburger.com/angusacres.html

I've been buying from them for years (like 6-7 at this point, I probably put a kid through college). I live upstate so make a trip out to the farm in Hudson but they have stalls in Union Square and the Museum of Natural History on the weekends (scroll to the bottom of the page). I'm not sure who mans the stalls but if it's Dan or Keith tell them you're Raw Paleo and Dan sent you. They'll do you solid.

It's the absolute best frozen grass-fed/finished meats I've found for sale. It's pricey now ($12 a pound for many of the muscle meats) but they have fantastic fat and regularly stock a good selection of organs.

I can't speak to fresh versus frozen cattle but it's a marked difference in wild game or fish so I assume it's the same in cattle. That said I have thrived on quality frozen ground and suet fat as a base for my diet. To each their own.
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Offline the6step

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I've been buying from them for years (like 6-7 at this point, I probably put a kid through college). I live upstate so make a trip out to the farm in Hudson but they have stalls in Union Square and the Museum of Natural History on the weekends (scroll to the bottom of the page). I'm not sure who mans the stalls but if it's Dan or Keith tell them you're Raw Paleo and Dan sent you. They'll do you solid.

It's the absolute best frozen grass-fed/finished meats I've found for sale. It's pricey now ($12 a pound for many of the muscle meats) but they have fantastic fat and regularly stock a good selection of organs.

I can't speak to fresh versus frozen cattle but it's a marked difference in wild game or fish so I assume it's the same in cattle. That said I have thrived on quality frozen ground and suet fat as a base for my diet. To each their own.

Solid djr_81. I'm literally 15 min away from Union Square... I'm going to check it out tomorrow! Thanks.

 

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