Why was the sports supplement moved from bodybuilding forum?

[surfsteve]

Why was the sports supplement thread moved from the exercise and bodybuilding forum over to hot topics?

If I were new to this forum and wanted to find information about bodybuilding or exercise supplements I wouldn't even think to look in the hot topics forum. I would probably just look at the body building forum and realize there is nothing there and move on to someone else's forum.

I realize that supplements aren't exactly paleo but most people would agree that there is something missing in today's food and that it's not what it used to be in paleo times. I would argue that taking supplements, even though most of them don't work is an attempt to make our food more like it was in the paleo era.

As a raw paleo bodybuilder, I really think the thread should be moved back and that it belongs in exercise and bodybuilding.

[TylerDurden]

First of all, by "bodybuilding", we really are referring to the kind of bodybuilders in the 1930s to 1960s who went in  for RVAF diets in a big way such as Armand Tanny. Processed supplements are highly non-palaeo, so  such topics should be put in the hot topics folder. Also, modern bodybuilding, ever since the RVAF-diet phase, has become extremely unnatural. Some years ago, the white bodybuilder(forget his name) who was the 2nd-ranking bodybuilder (Jay Cutler?)  revealed the sheer horror of that modern sport, involving constant, highly dangerous use of questionable supplements, constant(often life-threatening) forced  dehydration prior to contests in order to show/define the muscles more, and so on.  Also, even "raw" supplements are often highly questionable, and not guaranteed to work by any means.

[surfsteve]

I think I see why this forum is almost dead. If you want to punish everyone by hiding information about bodybuilding supplements from people that are looking for it in what is effectively your spam folder that is your business. I can take a hint and wont be posting here anymore unless you have a change of heart. Otherwise consider this my last thread.  Paleo or not supplements have everything to do with bodybuilding and in terms of paleo have been around almost as long as gyms and weights themselves. If I could find a healthier alternative to them I would gladly listen but I've developed a magnesium deficiency since going paleo and I don't see any alternative other than risking my health for the sake of calling myself paleo. Even as recently as a hundred or so years ago men had more testosterone than most guys using steroids. Animals eating grass will only provide marginal improvements. Even the grass they eat is for the most part grown on malnourished, mineral depleted soils. If you've got a solution to improve my strength to that of our paleo ancestors I'm all ears. Otherwise it's time to beat feet.

[TylerDurden]

The hot topics forum is not a "spam" folder, and, no, this shift  is not a punishment. It's just the right place to put any  controversial topics which are opposed to  rawpalaeo notions, so topics promoting the benefits of cooking should not belong in the general discussions forum, talking about the superiority of cooked starches does not belong in the raw, zero-carb diet forum, talk of processed supplements should go in the hot topics forum etc.. Note I am not banning mention of such topics at all. Also, it's not really acceptable to put anti-RPD subjects in forums meant for RPD -related subjects - that would simply encourage newbies etc. to think that processed supplements were a  standard part of RPD diets - to a much lesser extent, a lot of RPDers have previously experimented with processed supplements and found them to be either useless or even dangerous. At any rate,  you can petition GS, if you like, as he is in charge, ultimately.And I welcome any views from established  RPDers here.

[surfsteve]

Just to be perfectly clear. Talking about bodybuilding supplements in the bodybuilding forum is improper and should be moved to hot topics, (which is not a spam folder), and this forum is almost dead because all of the people that used to post here were never really serious about adopting a paleo lifestyle and would rather be posting pictures of cats on Facebook. Is that about right?

[van]

I for one am more interested in fine tuning a diet that contributes to longevity and balanced day to day health,, what ever that means to anyone.   Supplements come and go, as our beliefs about their potential come and go.  There's always the next greatest this or that.  Many or even most of us here have tried enough to know that there may be some little 'gain' in the beginning stages, but as the body adapts, whatever effects, wane. And often they are placebo to begin with, or because one was really trying with the rest of their diet and lifestyle to correct something.  It can be an endless effort of hope that only fills your cupboards with bottles of stuff you don't know now what to do with.   
    I always say to people,  'what, are you now going to take that stuff for the rest of your life?" 
    Again, in my opinion, better to find your nutrients in the form of healthy naturally raised live fresh food and live your life.
( I understand that this may be a little obtuse for some )

[surfsteve]

I totally and whole heartedly agree with you 100%. I really don't want to take supplements and if it hadn't been moved to hot topics I'd be asking for and discussing suggestions instead of using every post to complain. But I've come to the conclusion that our soil and environment are probably lacking and that no matter now well we eat we are always going to be deficient in something.

What point is there in discussing bodybuilding if every post that isn't religiously paleo is going to be moved "the the folder that isn't a spam folder"?

I want my posts moved back where they belong. Please move them so I can get on with serious and informative discussions and people that want to read about bodybuilding and interested in raw paleo can find them instead of wasting all my time complaining!

[van]

I don't understand how you can make the statement that our soils... when you eat standard grain fed animals?      I grew up witnessing my dad bring home each week an almost full bag of supplements from the 'health food store'...   so I know very well how easy it is to believe in hope, it can be very alluring. Just something to chew on.

[surfsteve]

I think its wrong to lump all supplements into one group and call them evil. Yes the soils that have been sprayed with chemicals and over farmed are bad but even the ones untouched by plows are sprayed with herbicides and covered with industrial fall out from the rain and from the air. Most pasture land has been over seeded with hybrids and even the ones that aren't are subject to GMO seed blowing in and contaminating what was once wild. I believe that 99% of all supplements are pure garbage and do more harm than good and would like the chance to discuss them out in the open in an attempt to find out which ones I've been taking belong in the 99% and which might help make up for what I am missing in my diet or help me get rid of the chemicals I've been doing my best to avoid that have contaminated my body and mind.

Please move my bodybuilding supplement thread back to the bodybuilding forum where it belongs as a show of support for my efforts and those of like mind!

[van]

how about spelling out what supplements you think you need where you can't get those nutrients in naturally raised raw fresh unprocessed foods.   
   For instance, since I prefer a very low carb diet which doesn't include much fruit, I supplement with Vit C, occasionally.  I do the same with Vit D when the only eggs I can get are only from birds fed lots of grains and thus don't consume them, and then only in the winter or extreme foggy months here on the northern coast of ca. 

[sabertooth]

Even if supplementals work for some people in some situations, in most cases the nutrients they provide could be more optimally attained from whole raw foods.

The argument that since most food in the modern world is somehow adulterated and truly paleo quality foods are hard to find, therefore supplements are needed for those who want the body of a Greek Olympian Statue..... is a logical fallacy...in as much as if you truly seek out optimal foods, with true grit and determination, ye shall find. 

Armand Tanny is a perfect example of how one can obtain everything that is needed without relying on supplements.
https://physicalculturestudy.com/2016/08/02/armand-tanny-and-raw-meat-bodybuilding/

Now if one is unable or unwilling to actually collect their own raw sea food or find the perfect free range ranch, and instead choses to settle for less than optimal foods, while attempting to supplement for whatever may be lacking...then that is their right to do so...but you cant expect people of this forum who are true to a Raw Paleo way of life to endorse such a compromise.

Perhaps supplementation works well for some individuals who are wise and well attuned to what their personal needs are...BUT too often I have witnessed people who seek a short cut to optimal health, give up looking for optimal nutrition through food and begin to rely too extensively on supplementation, only to suffer the detrimental effects of a number of imbalances, that are best treated with a balanced diet. Many people out there, especially those with serious problems or unrealistic expectations, are too quick to believe in supplements as the answer to their prayers...and end up wasting valuable time and money which would be better spent on obtaining more optimal foods.

[surfsteve]

That's a good argument for not taking supplements. Unfortunately nobody that is interested in bodybuilding and happens to come into this forum will be able to find it or any of my posts about supplements because they are buried in threads that a bodybuilder interested in paleo would never think to look for them!

If you're going to have a thread about bodybuilding all of the posts about bodybuilding belong there. The thread says bodybuilding. It does not say paleo bodybuilding. Even if it did it should not have been moved to hot topics. If I were new to this forum I would expect hot topics to be about hot paleo topics. Not a collection of threads that someone moved because they thought they weren't religiously paleo enough to belong in the rest of the forum.
Move my thread back in bodybuilding. But not because I insist. But because that's where it belongs!