Author Topic: Percentage of babies born with disorders rising heavily in last 2 years  (Read 5341 times)

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Offline TylerDurden

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-5126865/Developmental-disability-rates-continue-climb-CDC-says.html

This goes to show that turning away from palaeo practices just leads to ever worse problems in the short or long run. In the Palaeolithic era, those born with developmental disorders etc. would not have been allowed to survive, given the mass infanticide practised in Palaeolithic times. Nowadays, ever-improving medical technology makes it increasingly easier for very premature babies to survive, not to mention enabling a myriad more defective genes to survive in the human gene-pool for the foreseeable future. Plus, the ever-increasing pollution of the environment and the increase in the processing of (junk) foods is likely also a factor.
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Offline dariorpl

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Re: Percentage of babies born with disorders rising heavily in last 2 years
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2017, 08:18:43 pm »
Dr. Pottenger found that 4 generations on raw was all it took to bring his cats back to health. It's not clear that the damage is irreversible, nor that it's a result of dysgenics like you suggest.

The rise in the amounts of disease that we see over the past 50-100 years cannot be explained by dysgenics alone. It takes time for something like that to have a significant effect in the population.

Plus, you assume that just because someone survives, that they will reproduce, and that is not necessarily the case. In some ways there is even more discrimination now about who will reproduce and who won't, regarding diseases, than there was back in paleo times.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Percentage of babies born with disorders rising heavily in last 2 years
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2017, 10:17:50 pm »
Pottenger's study was deeply flawed. He made all sorts of false assumptions. I vaguely recall that he only compared cats eating some raw milk as well as raw flesh, he did not compare the milk-eating cats to cats eating only raw flesh.

I was not referring to "modern" diseases caused by obesity and lack of exercise or modern junk food diets. I was referring to the vast increase in survival in the last  70+ years of people with birth-defects who would have died in earlier times long before being able to reproduce. There are other factors. For example, a cousin of mine had children via IVF - IVF leads to a third higher chance of birth-defects, among other factors such as:-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/10/05/baby-boys-born-through-fertility-treatment-found-to-have-low-spe/

200 years ago, those with lower sperm-counts would simply have died out, unable to have children.

There are many other non-dietary factors such as the tendency for mothers to have children at much later ages, which leads to a higher chance of birth-defects.

Dysgenics is clearly a major factor. For example, many people died in the 2 world wars, and there was the Spanish Flu epidemic after WW1 which caused a lot of people to die. If the remaining population were not suitable, genetically, then....

Anyway,my point re all this is that there is a steady, increasing  tendency among all populations worldwide to have lower sperm-counts, higher birth-defect-rates etc. While some of that might be reversible, it is extremely unlikely that it could be wholly reversed.Nowadays, laws against incest are being relaxed, allowing more birth-defects to appear etc. And, more importantly, those with birth-defects are more and more being encouraged to have children....
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Offline dariorpl

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Re: Percentage of babies born with disorders rising heavily in last 2 years
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2017, 12:16:17 am »
Pottenger's study was deeply flawed. He made all sorts of false assumptions. I vaguely recall that he only compared cats eating some raw milk as well as raw flesh, he did not compare the milk-eating cats to cats eating only raw flesh.

That doesn't mean they are flawed, not in the least. If in your opinion raw milk was detrimental to the cats' health, and Dr Pottenger was able to reverse disease of all sorts with the raw meat + raw milk diet, then this means that an all-meat raw diet would have even better results.
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Offline dariorpl

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Re: Percentage of babies born with disorders rising heavily in last 2 years
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2017, 12:18:45 am »
Dysgenics is clearly a major factor. For example, many people died in the 2 world wars, and there was the Spanish Flu epidemic after WW1 which caused a lot of people to die. If the remaining population were not suitable, genetically, then....

But that's a big assumption to make, that the remaining population were "not suitable" in a significant way.

Anyway,my point re all this is that there is a steady, increasing  tendency among all populations worldwide to have lower sperm-counts, higher birth-defect-rates etc. While some of that might be reversible, it is extremely unlikely that it could be wholly reversed.

And my point is that the tendency has increased at such a rapid pace that it can't possibly be due to dysgenics, and to the extent that dysgenics may play a role, it's only minimal when compared to the actual rate of change in the tendency.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Percentage of babies born with disorders rising heavily in last 2 years
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2017, 01:29:36 am »
But that's a big assumption to make, that the remaining population were "not suitable" in a significant way.
Quite reasonable, actually. Think about it, the cowards and those with defects in personality, character, physical build etc. would be the ones most likely to try avoiding front-line conflict in favour of peaceful positions in the Home Guard or nonviolent jobs like quartermaster etc.
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And my point is that the tendency has increased at such a rapid pace that it can't possibly be due to dysgenics, and to the extent that dysgenics may play a role, it's only minimal when compared to the actual rate of change in the tendency.
Simply incorrect. You underestimate the impact of modern medicine on human life. Like I stated before, many, many people are now alive and breeding who, 200 years ago, would have died long before being able to reproduce. Also, some problems have been ongoing since many millenia ago. Certain populations(for example, Jews/Muslims/Amish),  are and always have been riddled with inbreeding  so that modern medicine enabling many to survive and breed has made the problem much worse than before:-


https://fellowshipoftheminds.com/2015/07/17/half-of-worlds-muslims-are-inbred-due-to-generations-of-incest/

"That would explain why research for BBC2’s Newsnight in November 2005 showed that British Pakistanis accounted for 3.4% of all births but 30% of all British children with recessive genetic disorders."

Granted, some populations are better off than others but there is a steady decline in sperm-count and many other factors. Now, if you got everyone to eat a raw, palaeolithic diet  , dealt with air-pollition/water-pollution/soil-pollution and follow a reasonable daily regime of constant palaeo-style exercise, you would mostly get rid of the modern illnesses such as type 2 diabetes etc., but you could not remove the negative effects of inbreeding or the negative side-effects of modern medicine re enabling premature babies to survive etc.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/premature-babies-risk-infant-death-lower-fertility-study-20080326-21q9.html

Bear in mind also that the domestication of Mankind alone has resulted in a 10% drop in average brain-size, along with lower intelligence, since the Neolithic era got started:-

http://discovermagazine.com/2010/sep/25-modern-humans-smart-why-brain-shrinking
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline dariorpl

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Re: Percentage of babies born with disorders rising heavily in last 2 years
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2017, 04:27:59 am »
Quite reasonable, actually. Think about it, the cowards and those with defects in personality, character, physical build etc. would be the ones most likely to try avoiding front-line conflict in favour of peaceful positions in the Home Guard or nonviolent jobs like quartermaster etc. Simply incorrect. You underestimate the impact of modern medicine on human life. Like I stated before, many, many people are now alive and breeding who, 200 years ago, would have died long before being able to reproduce. Also, some problems have been ongoing since many millenia ago. Certain populations(for example, Jews/Muslims/Amish),  are and always have been riddled with inbreeding  so that modern medicine enabling many to survive and breed has made the problem much worse than before:-

Since there were massive drafts and widespread killing of civilians, many of whom who were too poor or too weak to escape, this is not necessarily so.

Also, the nazi regime especifically targeted what they considered to be inferior specimens for sterilization and/or imprisonment, enslavement or execution. Likewise in the Soviet Union and China, tons of people were executed or simply starved to death, and in this sense you would expect a eugenics effect from these phenomena.

Granted, some populations are better off than others but there is a steady decline in sperm-count and many other factors. Now, if you got everyone to eat a raw, palaeolithic diet  , dealt with air-pollition/water-pollution/soil-pollution and follow a reasonable daily regime of constant palaeo-style exercise, you would mostly get rid of the modern illnesses such as type 2 diabetes etc., but you could not remove the negative effects of inbreeding or the negative side-effects of modern medicine re enabling premature babies to survive etc.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/premature-babies-risk-infant-death-lower-fertility-study-20080326-21q9.html

Since rates for pretty much all diseases are way up, and we have more medical treatments than ever before, isn't it more reasonable to assume that all this medicine is a big part what is causing much of the disease, rather than simply dysgenic factors? (which I don't dispute are a problem today, but not in the same way you think)
Bear in mind also that the domestication of Mankind alone has resulted in a 10% drop in average brain-size, along with lower intelligence, since the Neolithic era got started:-

http://discovermagazine.com/2010/sep/25-modern-humans-smart-why-brain-shrinking

Yes, but this has been reversing for several hundred years at least. Also, consider the Flynn effect.
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Offline dariorpl

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Re: Percentage of babies born with disorders rising heavily in last 2 years
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2017, 04:30:38 am »
Sorry for bad edit of quoting, I tried to modify but it doesn't work.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Percentage of babies born with disorders rising heavily in last 2 years
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2017, 06:49:05 am »
Since there were massive drafts and widespread killing of civilians, many of whom who were too poor or too weak to escape, this is not necessarily so.
. Not really. I know many, many people who easily avoided military national service in Austria , making up the most bogus of excuses. Admittedly, this was in peacetime, but a coward can easily fake enough ill-health etc. in order to be put well behind the front lines.
Quote
Also, the nazi regime especifically targeted what they considered to be inferior specimens for sterilization and/or imprisonment, enslavement or execution. Likewise in the Soviet Union and China, tons of people were executed or simply starved to death, and in this sense you would expect a eugenics effect from these phenomena.
In those days, such people were anyway  far less likely to be able to breed compared to nowadays.Also, any executions between 1914 to 1955 did not remove the negative effects of inbreeding which continued.
[uote]
Yes, but this has been reversing for several hundred years at least. [/quote] Not remotely valid, as that very change has nothing to do with genetics but is said to be solely due to the sudden rise in food-intake in modern times. Obviously, someone with a larger brain is going to suffer in more ancient times when famine was far more likely an occurrence. Height has also increased in modern times due to a lack of famine BUT we are still shorter than our palaeo ancestors, despite this. The point being that to get back to the brain-size of Cro-Magnon, and especially the Neanderthals, we would need significant natrual selection and the like to do get to that point.To sum up, lack of food/famine is not the same as an inferior diet.
Quote
Also, consider the Flynn effect.
The Flynn Effect has been discredited. People have pointed out that all it shows is that people have become better at doing IQ tests, not that they were growing more intelligent. I myself have done endless IQ tests and steadily scored ever higher points as I did more and more IQ tests which were very similiar in nature. As soon as I did more complex IQ tests which had far different methods, I would end up scoring much lower than usual. My scores have varied anywhere from 113 IQ points to 170!

Oh, and the Flynn Effect has been recently broken. This is linked by some  to recent mass immigration:-
https://theeconomyofmeaning.com/2015/11/12/new-study-shows-reversed-flynn-effect-no-more-rising-iqs/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2730791/Are-STUPID-Britons-people-IQ-decline.html

One idea has been that  the level of dygenics over the last 200 years has been temporarily masked by the fact that better conditions arose such as less exposure to famine and better environment, along with better education. The idea being that dysgenics is now so dominant that a better environment/adequate nutrition etc. can no longer cloak it.



"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Percentage of babies born with disorders rising heavily in last 2 years
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2017, 06:49:37 am »
Sorry for bad edit of quoting, I tried to modify but it doesn't work.
I emailed GS about this as I had also had problems. Hope he gets round to it eventually.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Offline TylerDurden

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"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Percentage of babies born with disorders rising heavily in last 2 years
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2017, 09:59:13 am »
These who do not learn from the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.....The Great war which preceded the so called Spanish flu outbreak was all part of an orchestrated culling off of the population and consolidation of power and wealth, of western civilization, perpetrated by the evil industrialist and banking overlords of that day. The Spanish flu was actually triggered by mass poisoning caused when stockpiles of corrupt vaccines left over from the war were dispensed among the general populations. Of the millions who died or where damaged, a great majority received the toxic inoculations. http://www.whale.to/vaccine/sf1.html

The collective immunological capacity to mutagenically adapt to dramatic environmental shifts is suppressed by numerous factors. Wither or not there is a deliberate technocratic effort to cull the strong and domesticate the weak, or if these trends are simply effects of ignorant practices run amok, is up for debate, but it should be evident that there is an epidemic of degradation of epic portions.

We have cut our umbilical ties to the earth and the epigenetic resonance which ties our health to the health of our environment is experiencing ever greater levels of distortion and dissonance. Though its politically incorrect for establishment scientist to make such conclusions it is feasible to believe that there are now portions of the population who are becoming genetically unsound because of the environmental Holocaust...not saying that we are all necessarily doomed, but there are definitely digressions and aberrations of the sacred code which if not reversed, will lead to the human bred digressing to the point where the inherit genetic rejuvenation software is damaged beyond repair.

The day may come when it may be necessary for sub groups of heirloom humans who have not yet been rendered nonviable to fork off and live on reservations, and could be used to form new branches of evolution, just in case these new technologies and environmental holocaust renders the majority of quality human genetic traits defunct, we would still have seed colonies to rebuild humanity after the fall. 
A man who makes a beast of himself, forgets the pain of being a man.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Percentage of babies born with disorders rising heavily in last 2 years
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2017, 11:17:14 am »
SB, the above sounds much like the sort of plot found in E M Forster's novella "The Machine Stops" and Huxley's "Brave New World".
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline dariorpl

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Re: Percentage of babies born with disorders rising heavily in last 2 years
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2017, 06:18:32 pm »
SB, the above sounds much like the sort of plot found in E M Forster's novella "The Machine Stops" and Huxley's "Brave New World".

And yet it's all true.
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Offline dariorpl

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Re: Percentage of babies born with disorders rising heavily in last 2 years
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2017, 06:35:24 pm »
. Not really. I know many, many people who easily avoided military national service in Austria , making up the most bogus of excuses. Admittedly, this was in peacetime, but a coward can easily fake enough ill-health etc. in order to be put well behind the front lines.

It's not a coward who refuses to fight in an unjust war. Actually, the coward is the one who does everything he's told without even questioning it, for fear of punishment.

Not remotely valid, as that very change has nothing to do with genetics but is said to be solely due to the sudden rise in food-intake in modern times. Obviously, someone with a larger brain is going to suffer in more ancient times when famine was far more likely an occurrence.
Height has also increased in modern times due to a lack of famine

And likewise the smarter and taller ones who survive pass on their smarter and taller genes on.

BUT we are still shorter than our palaeo ancestors, despite this. The point being that to get back to the brain-size of Cro-Magnon, and especially the Neanderthals, we would need significant natrual selection and the like to do get to that point.

This could be the case, although this wouldn't indicate that the dysgenic effects are as terrible and as pressing as what you think. That said, I remain highly skeptical of the theory that says that neanderthals and cro magnon were much smarter than us. I could accept that on average, they may have been slightly smarter, but they didn't have the raw numbers to produce unlikely geniuses like we have today, which are the ones who truly move civilization forward. If they were so smart, why did they all die out? And why didn't they produce technology like the kind we have today? Or are you saying that they did have such technology, built the pyramids, ruled over us, and when they got tired of playing god, left the planet and went for the stars?

The Flynn Effect has been discredited. People have pointed out that all it shows is that people have become better at doing IQ tests, not that they were growing more intelligent. I myself have done endless IQ tests and steadily scored ever higher points as I did more and more IQ tests which were very similiar in nature. As soon as I did more complex IQ tests which had far different methods, I would end up scoring much lower than usual. My scores have varied anywhere from 113 IQ points to 170!

The Flynn Effect applies to subsequent generations. Yes you can teach yourself to do better at IQs, but like you said, as soon as the type of IQ test is changed drastically, your benefits are gone. The Flynn Effect applies to people who've never done IQ tests before, certainly not the ones used to test for it.


Oh, and the Flynn Effect has been recently broken. This is linked by some  to recent mass immigration:-

Yes, of course, you could have a situation where every race is getting smarter on average, but the population as a whole is getting less smart on average because basically the only ones who are growing in numbers are africans, who on average are less smart. Notice that this applies worldwide too, so it's not simply about immigration/emmigration.

One idea has been that  the level of dygenics over the last 200 years has been temporarily masked by the fact that better conditions arose such as less exposure to famine and better environment, along with better education. The idea being that dysgenics is now so dominant that a better environment/adequate nutrition etc. can no longer cloak it.

I'd doubt some of that. There might be less famine, but quality of foods has gone down substantially. And like you said, famines should have an eugenics effect, no?

Likewise the formal education has gotten terribly worse, while informal education has gotten much better in very recent times due to the internet.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Percentage of babies born with disorders rising heavily in last 2 years
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2017, 08:56:40 pm »
It's not a coward who refuses to fight in an unjust war. Actually, the coward is the one who does everything he's told without even questioning it, for fear of punishment.

You've missed several points. Take the above:- generally, there were many patriotic people in both wars who willingly fought without coercion.As regards cowardice, generally speaking, a coward in the palaeolithic would soon have died due to being unable to successsfully hunt and kill animals much larger than him. It is only since the Neolithic era, that cowards are much more easily able to hide behind the brave, and thus avoid getting killed before being able to breed.

Quote

This could be the case, although this wouldn't indicate that the dysgenic effects are as terrible and as pressing as what you think.
The problem with dysgenics is that it does not necessarily have to show itself. All bad genes need is to be able to reproduce themselves. In an unhealthy society, that is possible, otherwise much less so.

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That said, I remain highly skeptical of the theory that says that neanderthals and cro magnon were much smarter than us. I could accept that on average, they may have been slightly smarter, but they didn't have the raw numbers to produce unlikely geniuses like we have today, which are the ones who truly move civilization forward. If they were so smart, why did they all die out? And why didn't they produce technology like the kind we have today? Or are you saying that they did have such technology, built the pyramids, ruled over us, and when they got tired of playing god, left the planet and went for the stars?

All absurd claims. Take
1) It has been shown, despite various marxist pseudo-philosophers like Stephen Jay Gould etc., that having larger brains is usually linked to  higher intelligence:-
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289616303385?via%3Dihub

2)In actual fact, HG tribes in palaeo times have been shown to have demonstrated great genius among them, given their intricate knowledge of  astronomy, refined hunting -strategies etc. The fact that they had to spend most of their time surviving rather than sitting down and reading/writing books does NOT mean they were less intelligent than us. It merely means that we developed better technology. We Neolithic types did so by encouraging greater cooperation between the various morons, thus enabling methods which advanced their civlisation. Take modern criminals, for example. Some modern criminals have much higher intelligence than police-officers, with the latter being known for being, on average, quite stupid people. However, despite the police having lower average intelligence than the higher strata of criminals, the more intelligent criminals are often caught because a) the police  far outnumber them and b) the police often develop various simple patterns to make it much easier to detect and identify even the most intelligent criminals(such as using licence-plates or CCTV or burglar-alarms etc.) None of these methods really require intelligence per se.

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If they were so smart, why did they all die out?
Intelligent people can die out despite or because of having higher intelligence. Possibilities exist such as a major famine. There is another issue. HGs, Neanderthals and the like demonstrate MORE intelligence since they controlled their population growth unlike settled populations. Settled populations were only ever able to be restricted in the past because of major plagues or because they ruined their agricultural lands through overuse. Now, that modern technology allows circumvention of those factors, the Earth is now in danger of being ruined as regards its environment. The main definition of intelligence, by the way, is planning for the future. The stupid are far more likely to not bother planning at all, and just seek out short-term goals, even if they lead to long-term disaster.
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The Flynn Effect applies to subsequent generations. Yes you can teach yourself to do better at IQs, but like you said, as soon as the type of IQ test is changed drastically, your benefits are gone. The Flynn Effect applies to people who've never done IQ tests before, certainly not the ones used to test for it.
You completely missed the point. I showed links above which stated that the Flynn Effect disappeared once more rigorous IQ tests were done which did not mimic the usual IQ tests.I also showed that the Flynn Effect has recently vanished from western nations as migration from much lower-IQ regions happened.
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Yes, of course, you could have a situation where every race is getting smarter on average, but the population as a whole is getting less smart on average because basically the only ones who are growing in numbers are africans, who on average are less smart. Notice that this applies worldwide too, so it's not simply about immigration/emmigration.
I can safely state, from watching my own relatives by blood or marriage, that, worldwide, not just in Africa, the stupid are fast outbreeding the more intelligent ever since the Neolithic era, but particularly more so in the last 100 years. In the past, even in Neolithic times, there were some instances where some eugenics was in place, such as the mass infanticide routinely practised prior to the Pill.
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I'd doubt some of that. There might be less famine, but quality of foods has gone down substantially. And like you said, famines should have an eugenics effect, no?
Yet those with larger brains would be more damaged by famine due to having higher energy needs....
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Likewise the formal education has gotten terribly worse, while informal education has gotten much better in very recent times due to the internet.
Agree on that, though it does not involve higher intelligence.Neither greater technology nor greater education can substitute for intelligence. I recall CK, in previous times, hysterically screaming "Hadron Collider" in order to supposedly "prove" that modern humans were, oh, so much more intelligent than in the past. He was dead wrong. Take calculators, for example. it is now simple for a human being to use an online calculator to figure out the simplest sums. Yet, a 100 years ago or more, in times without calculators, people actually had to work out maths in their heads, thus actually using their intelligence, unlike us moderns who can just let automated patterns work out the answer without us ever actually using our brains. There is an old saying which applies to intelligence as to many other things:- "if you don't use it, you lose it!".
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Percentage of babies born with disorders rising heavily in last 2 years
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2017, 01:17:12 pm »
Quote from: dariorpl on Yesterday at 06:18:32 pm
And yet it's all true.

Truth is stranger than fiction.

This may or may not be tangential to the theme of the thread, but it seems that the human entity is now engaged in building an external systems of intelligence, so that it will no longer be necessary for the majority of individuals to possess higher reasoning, in order to maintain a viable civilization. Instead of maintaining populations of highly individualized critical thinking humans all that is necessary for the constitution and maintenance of these super machines are compartmentalized populations where individuals operate as interconnected nodes within a super organism.

Within this new super-organism only a small percentage of highly intelligent super nodes are required to delegate task and responsibilities to the drones. The lack of necessity for traits of individual intelligence, combine with the environmental conditions which encourage intellectual paralysis, will lead to a continuation of the epigenetic epidemic of brain atrophy now confounding our world. Just as the elk and deer evolved to run only as fast as the wolves who chase them, our minds evolved to only maintain the power necessary to ensure survival. Once survival becomes ensured to all, equally regardless of ones ability to (think and reason) or( fight or flight) then these highly developed survival mechanism will become a moot remnant of a no longer relevant age and wither away within a few short "de-generations".

Im not a total pessimist, and see in the midst of the dimming light of the individual mental power,( or to put it bluntly the tidal wave of brain-damaged babies) there is still opertunity for positive transformation and epi-evolution. For as the old systems wither away, the nature of the game changes, and new challenges generate new genesis's that will throw the intrepid spirit trapped within a state of homeostatic entropy, out of the nexus stupor of an insidious culture, and into the brave new age in which the spirit of reincarnated Promethean sages siege control of Cyber Mind Fire from the extra-dimensional AI Gods.
A man who makes a beast of himself, forgets the pain of being a man.

Offline a_real_man

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Re: Percentage of babies born with disorders rising heavily in last 2 years
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2017, 03:43:21 am »
Very thought-provoking thread. Good job guys.

I wanted to add my 2 cents. Any disaster is an opportunity to a sufficiently enterprising individual. The rising ignorance of the majority leaves them vulnurable to a charming demagogue or governmental control. It is not unlikely that such a form of control will lead to their culling (e.g., war or disease). The smart and cunning will survive to reproduce, while the ignorant and submissive will die. Thus natural selection will continue its neverending work of improving our species. The takeaway point is not to worry so much about the species - worry more about #1.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Percentage of babies born with disorders rising heavily in last 2 years
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2017, 05:04:49 am »
Very thought-provoking thread. Good job guys.

I wanted to add my 2 cents. Any disaster is an opportunity to a sufficiently enterprising individual. The rising ignorance of the majority leaves them vulnurable to a charming demagogue or governmental control. It is not unlikely that such a form of control will lead to their culling (e.g., war or disease). The smart and cunning will survive to reproduce, while the ignorant and submissive will die. Thus natural selection will continue its neverending work of improving our species. The takeaway point is not to worry so much about the species - worry more about #1.
The trouble is that, ever since the Neolithic era, Mankind has been deliberately selecting for the unfit on a massive scale, so there is nothing natural about this form of selection. Take money, for example. Money is a figment of the imagination based on pieces of paper, with no real intrinsic value. Yet, human beings perceive those with money as having more value than others, for the purposes of mating etc.Granted, not all humans per se actively mate for money, BUT they indirectly do so, in that the very possession of money allows the rich to gain access to superior technology that increases the survival of their children etc.

One only has to look at the major geniuses of the past  5000 years. Almost all of them had no children.....That means, human society definitely discriminates against intelligence....

Anyway, the point is that a single individual has no chance against such major social forces. You need some social organisation to help you, unfortunately, when in a non-free society.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline a_real_man

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Re: Percentage of babies born with disorders rising heavily in last 2 years
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2017, 07:20:45 am »
The trouble is that, ever since the Neolithic era, Mankind has been deliberately selecting for the unfit on a massive scale, so there is nothing natural about this form of selection.
Humans are part of nature.

Take money, for example. Money is a figment of the imagination based on pieces of paper, with no real intrinsic value. Yet, human beings perceive those with money as having more value than others, for the purposes of mating etc.Granted, not all humans per se actively mate for money, BUT they indirectly do so, in that the very possession of money allows the rich to gain access to superior technology that increases the survival of their children etc.
Other animals also imagine things. They image that there are hierarchies and that they have a place in them, for example.

One only has to look at the major geniuses of the past  5000 years. Almost all of them had no children.....That means, human society definitely discriminates against intelligence....
It discriminates against a type of intelligence, I agree. But as far as nature is concerned, the point of being intelligent is to procreate. If you're not procreating, then your intelligence is biologically useless or even unfit.

Anyway, the point is that a single individual has no chance against such major social forces. You need some social organisation to help you, unfortunately, when in a non-free society.
I don't see it that way. A sufficiently intelligent person should be able to asses the situation, adapt, and thrive.
You have in mind certain scientists that have made great contributions to society with their inventiveness and discoveries. But to invent/discover something, you don't need to be intelligent - you simply need to be different than others. You simply need to take a path that others have not taken, even if you have a limp. That's why people say that geniuses have a craziness to them. They just don't realize it's a trivial statement.

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Re: Percentage of babies born with disorders rising heavily in last 2 years
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2017, 07:22:44 am »
Trivial because they equate crazy with different.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Percentage of babies born with disorders rising heavily in last 2 years
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2017, 10:21:58 pm »
Humans are part of nature.
Easily debunked, as so much of human life is unnatural, opposing Nature. Examples include modern post-op transsexuals, gambling addictions, modern obesity, eating cooked foods etc. etc.

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Other animals also imagine things. They image that there are hierarchies and that they have a place in them, for example.
Invalid as human imagination far exceeds that of animals. Besides, what animals "imagaine" re hierarchies are essential to their survival. For example, the fact that only alpha male/female wolves can breed in a pack not only leads to survival of the fittest re genes but also encourages less dominant wolves to leave the pack so that they may one day become alpha wolves themselves(or at least enable self-reliance to a greater extent instead of always getting the smaller cuts of meats from a kill etc.) The point being that human imagination leads to a myriad useless things which are anti-survival whereas most animal imagination has some functional purpose behind it.
Quote
It discriminates against a type of intelligence, I agree. But as far as nature is concerned, the point of being intelligent is to procreate. If you're not procreating, then your intelligence is biologically useless or even unfit.
There is no such thing as a  different "type" of intelligence. Intelligence is intelligence. Yes, I know that that fraudster invented absurd concepts like "emotional intelligence" , "musical intelligence" and "physical intelligence" in order to allow the more "special"  among us to pretend that they were actually intelligent after all, but the guy  has been discredited by scientists.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/is-the-theory-of-emotional-intelligence-a-scam_us_58af5490e4b02f3f81e44558
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I don't see it that way. A sufficiently intelligent person should be able to asses the situation, adapt, and thrive.
You have in mind certain scientists that have made great contributions to society with their inventiveness and discoveries. But to invent/discover something, you don't need to be intelligent - you simply need to be different than others. You simply need to take a path that others have not taken, even if you have a limp. That's why people say that geniuses have a craziness to them. They just don't realize it's a trivial statement.
You miss the point again. Intelligence is not enough to survive. One needs to create a much more complex pattern. To give an example from the animal kingdom, ants are really dumb but, together as a colony, they can create highly intelligent patterns that enable them to survive far better. In order for a single individual to outperform a mass of other humans, they would need to be some form of magical
 supermutant, as portrayed in science-fiction short stories of the 1950s. However, such a mutation could not possibly occur or even spread/expand within a post-Neolithic society that is hellbent on destroying anybody who has some creative thought.And, in fact, you DO need to be (creatively) intelligent in order to discover something genuinely new. Sure, some discoveries occurred due to hit-and-miss occasions, but, more often than not, they also required enhanced creative intelligence to be able to exploit such. Hmm, also there have been a number of clearly fake-news-type examples from scientific history. Franklin's kite/lightning-bolt myth turns out to have been an utter fraud, for example:-
http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/mythbusters-database/ben-franklin-electricity/
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Percentage of babies born with disorders rising heavily in last 2 years
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2017, 10:37:33 pm »
Here's yet another example of how technology can make one a lot stupider, not smarter:-

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-5146647/Using-Google-brains-cause-dementia.html
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Percentage of babies born with disorders rising heavily in last 2 years
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2017, 06:03:56 pm »
I cannot use the modify button yet until it gets fixed, so should make things clear, here:- I meant that a deeply positive mutation like higher intelligence was much easier to spread in the human gene-pool during the Palaeolithic era, as there was so much natural selection(predators etc.) and unnatural selection(mass infanticide) favouring higher intelligence - also, tribes in the palaeolithic era were apparently quite small(<250 persons) so that helped as well.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

 

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