Meat to Veg/Fruit ratio?

[SkinnyDevil]

Just wondering about the different takes on RAF here at the Raw Paleo boards.

"Paleo" is a pretty general dietary term (many takes on how it is "properly" done), so I'm wondering how much of what y'all consume.

Personally, I tend to eat mostly fruits & veggies, then gorge on meats sporadically - anywhere from a few times a week to long long spans without any meat (essentially raw vegan).

How about YOU?

[lex_rooker]

I started the same way that you currently eat.  Having come from 20 years as a vegan it was tough to believe that large amounts of fruits and veggies weren't necessary.  Many of my complaints lessened but didn't go away until I finally figured out that Hunter came first in the Hunter/Gatherer thing.  I finally figured out that we should eat mostly meat and fat (Hunter) and eat just a small amount of the plant stuff when meat is not available or when the local fruits are in season (Gatherer).  Some still believe that green plant foods are important, but I no longer believe this and now think that they are more damaging than helpful.  If green plants were consumed by our ancestors, I suspect it was more for medicinal purposes than sustenance.

Anyway, at that point I changed my diet to about 90% to 95% of calories from meat and fat and then just had a small green salad (1 to 2 cups) OR a single piece of fruit (about 1 cup worth) per day eaten as a snack late in the afternoon or before going to bed.  Made a huge difference.  I made most of my gains on this regime and would gladly return to it in a heart beat if I find my current Zero Carb approach starting to fail.

I started ZC several years ago as an adventure and it has worked well so I've stuck with it.  Almost all issues dramatically improved on the VLC diet above, but I do suffer from an enlarged prostate and my hope has been that sticking with ZC will improve this situation over the long term.  So far my BPH has not worsened over the last 4 years which is wonderful, and the symptoms have actually lessened slightly.  My doctor has been amazed as his prognosis was continuing increases in medication over the short term followed by surgery and possibly cancer.  Glad to say his prediction of gloom has not yet materialized.

Bottom line, I think Very Low Carb is probably the best approach for most people, and the carbs you do eat should come from fruits and veggies and not grains, beans, or dairy.

Lex

[TylerDurden]

I guess that makes you more or less an Instincto - Instinctos are usually 80-90% raw plant-food and 10-20% raw animal food as regards their diet.

My diet now is, more or less, low-carb. I usually eat 1 large meal a day, which is usually raw meats/organs. And then I may(or may not) have some raw veg or raw fruit, c.30 minutes afterwards.

Any 1 week, I may be raw zero-carb for that week, or very low-carb, or just low-carb(<35% carbs). It all depends. For example, I occasionally have problems with my supply of high-quality raw animal foods(ie grassfed/wild), and in such circumstances, I will go in for raw (organic) fruit instead in a big way.

I've tried raw zero-carb for longer periods and it was a disaster. At the same time, going way too far in the way of raw carb-consumption has led to problems re blood-sugar etc. so I don't do the Instincto approach any more(I last did Instincto something like 8(?) years ago).

I'm happy with (high-quality) raw fruit. I also eat some raw(high-quality) vegetables(I'm very picky, though and rely on taste/instinct - for example, I'll go for radishes/samphire and the like but avoid broccoli/kale etc.). I eat grassfed meats(but FAR prefer meats/organ-meats from wild animals/wild fish) and avoid the usual non-palaeo foods, however raw:- (ie dairy, grains, legumes, processed junk foods etc.)

[Nicola]

My diet now is, more or less, low-carb. I usually eat 1 large meal a day, which is usually raw meats/organs. And then I may(or may not) have some raw veg or raw fruit, c.30 minutes afterwards.

Tyler, you posted this a few days ago - raw fruit after meat&fat seems to be not ideal...


http://www.youngerthanyourage.com/13/constipation.htm

Nicola

[goodsamaritan]

I tried raw vegan for 2 months.
Became too thin.
Started eating rice and cooked meat again.
Then went raw fruitarian for 2 months.
Became too thin.
Then went Wai Diet / Raw Paleo with raw fruit + raw fish + raw egg yolks (I don't like extra virgin olive oil as staple food)
Got bored with just raw fish and egg yolks after 2-3 months so I added raw beef.
On the advice of the wonderful people here, I adjusted and experimented with eating more raw animal food than fruits, switched to high fat low carb.
High fat low carb is awesome as it eliminated those nasty ups and downs of sugar feelings of hypoglycemia... you know those symptoms... feeling shaky, so hungry... 
High fat low carb energy is always steady...
My vegetable intake is spotty... just for novelty... for curiosity.
In my locale (Philippines), the teachings of Wai Diet that organic fruit are superior to organic vegetables is true, besides, I choose fruits that are not sugar bombs, I choose fruits that are high vitamin C fruits (guava, papaya, green mango) and those that provide fat (coconut, avocado)
I found a wet market that sells the best tasting fatty freshly killed beef so beef now is my favored animal food over raw tuna today.  We have multiple duck egg suppliers.
By volume, these days, I can see I'm 10 to 25% fruit and the rest is raw animal food.

[phatdave]

I definately agree with these peeps. I ate according to all sorts of weird cultish diets that did nothing for my health. Never been squeamish of raw animal foods coming from a real foodie/chef family with raw beef/fish/eggs as I grew up in the country, but truely started eating MAINLY animals - meat/fat/organs etc. and very little else about 2 weeks ago. About 1 large meal a day, later in the day more if hungry. For me, this is totally brilliant. Balanced mood, feel strong, bloody awesome. The people on this website are really great, some in particular are really really great in regards to balanced, sound advice. It takes some time to get use to physically, and it definately does take some time mentally. The hardest thing was actually realizing the drug like effect of cooked food! I try and trick myself and convience myself its good when i know its not. Not because of what people TELL me, but because of how I feel when i eat raw vs cooked.

Finding this 'diet' if you can call it that is the best damned thing to happen to me. However its only 2 weeks so I'll keep you guys posted! Oh yeah, and also doing my own research into history of man and diet/health/evolution too! may even study it as a degree if all goes well! ha!

But for me mate, its all about the animals. I definately do best like lex with bare minimal carbs. Like a supplement at most. but everyones different, tis just me / People give some good advice in regards to how much of what, but I think if you look at an animal and what there is edible on that animal, you get a vague idea of the preportions of organs/fat/meat. Read some peoples journals, I found Lexs' useful.

Good luck mate, have fun! Its really crazy!

David, 22, London

[Satya]

Yeah David, totally with you on animal foods only.  You have to experience it to understand the power and freedom.  And btw, I have not replied to you on the gravlax yet, and I will soon.  I just have been busy.  But when you wrote, I was inspired for the first time in a long time to post here.  Lex, Nicola, Andrew and others here are zero carb, or at least never eating sugary fruits ever.  I am one.  I only eat herbs, spices, seaweed and occasional wine with my animal foods for 2 months now.  I teach Taekwondo, lift weights and run longer and faster than ever.  Enjoy, and may the Force be with you!

[Hannibal]

Tyler, you posted this a few days ago - raw fruit after meat&fat seems to be not ideal...

that's definitely not ideal, as fruits digest at different PH than meat&fat
"Fruit digestion results in the release of an alkaline secretion, which neutralizes the acid secretions, needed for protein digestion."
food combining
I eat some fruits at the begining of the day as a snack and in the evening I eat one large meal consisted of meat and fat

[goodsamaritan]

Very interesting link, Hannibal, I will study that.  Thanks!
http://tuberose.com/Food_Combining.html

[TylerDurden]

that's definitely not ideal, as fruits digest at different PH than meat&fat
"Fruit digestion results in the release of an alkaline secretion, which neutralizes the acid secretions, needed for protein digestion."
food combining
I eat some fruits at the begining of the day as a snack and in the evening I eat one large meal consisted of meat and fat

To Nicola et al:- I should add that I always leave  a certain period of time between eating meats and fruit. Something like half an hour but often longer due to commitments(and sometimes fruit before meat). I have occasionally eaten fruits and meat at the same time but my digestive system is easily able to handle it. I don't do that often, though, as in pre-rawpalaeo days, my digestive system was rather weak and couldn't handle such food-combining at all.

[phatdave]

No worries satya, you can post whatever and whenever you want! I'm lucky to get all this great stuff for free anyway from you lovely people. Just like to add that I 'experimented' the last 2/3 days eating crud and I can safely say that I feel/felt absolutely lame!

D

ps. does any one else notice how differently they look at girls? Eating balances mood I guess, but I find myself less and less attracted to all forms of fake beauty....or fake anything for that matter.

Have a nice day.

[goodsamaritan]

Yes, I noticed what you are noticing.
You need to find a really healthy girl.
In due time there will be paleo dating.

[lex_rooker]

that's definitely not ideal, as fruits digest at different PH than meat&fat
"Fruit digestion results in the release of an alkaline secretion, which neutralizes the acid secretions, needed for protein digestion."
food combining
I eat some fruits at the beginning of the day as a snack and in the evening I eat one large meal consisted of meat and fat

Wonder what cave they found the paleo food combining charts in?  More natural hygiene nonsense (which I was gullable enough to fall for in my 20s and early 30s). I found it to be a worthless and unnecessary complication.  How could we possibly have survived to this point if our ancestors had to follow such complicated dietary protocols.  It seems to be a curse of the human species to want to unnecessarily complicate things.   

Your body will tell you if you are doing something it doesn't like.  If you eat fruit and meat together and it causes discomfort then by all means separate the two foods.  If you eat them together and you experience no problems then why not continue to do so?  Our bodies are amazing.  All we have to do is listen to what it tells us.  Thirst means we need fluid, hunger means we need food, discomfort is a warning that something is not right.

We would be better served to eat our food, (whatever we choose it to be), live our life, and listen to what our body tells us without obsessing over complicated made-up nonsense.

Lex

[SkinnyDevil]

Interesting & informative responses.

Query: With so many eating such high levels of animal food stuffs, how do you avoid the typical "Atkins" complications? Stress on kidneys, high cholesterol, etc (not to mention expense).

[Satya]

Interesting & informative responses.

Query: With so many eating such high levels of animal food stuffs, how do you avoid the typical "Atkins" complications? Stress on kidneys, high cholesterol, etc (not to mention expense).

These are all myths.  You should read Lex's journal, as he has taken lab tests as he has eaten no plant foods over the years.

Plant foods are a total waste of money.  They are mainly water, sugar and a few vitamins and minerals.  Meat contains ESSENTIAL amino acids, ESSENTIAL fats, vitamins and minerals.  I have so much more money now that I don't spend about $3.99 a lb for selected organic fruits and veg.  I have saved nearly $1000 a month for the last 2 months (9 weeks exactly) with a family of 4.  We all love eating this way; no one is zapped for energy, slow to recover from heavy workouts or any of the so-called problems associated with not eating carbs. 

I am a black belt in taekwondo and workout at least 1 hour a day, about 6 days a week now.  Many of the elite and extreme sport do require drugs to compete - like racing and bodybuilding.  But then, I would not consider these pursuits healthy.  Any sport that requires unhealthy eating of starch bombs like potatoes is not worth it, imho.  You can read my journal on the zero carb forum (which has hundreds of other people like me eating animals only or mostly).
http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=1803

[SkinnyDevil]

Interesting.

Perhaps the "myths" have something to do with the quality of the food they were eating, the cooking method, or some other factors.

I knew a guy who pissed blood after 2 weeks on Atkins (his doc demanded he stop, he did, no more pissing blood), but perhaps it was because he was eating a huge amount of dehydrated & salted meats (cheap beef jerky, for example).

Thanx for the info!

EDIT: Any thoughts on smoked meats (cold-smoked, not hot-smoked)?

[TylerDurden]

Interesting.

Perhaps the "myths" have something to do with the quality of the food they were eating, the cooking method, or some other factors.

I knew a guy who pissed blood after 2 weeks on Atkins (his doc demanded he stop, he did, no more pissing blood), but perhaps it was because he was eating a huge amount of dehydrated & salted meats (cheap beef jerky, for example).

Thanx for the info!

EDIT: Any thoughts on smoked meats (cold-smoked, not hot-smoked)?

Yes, there've been a number of reports about nasty side-effects from cooked, low-carb diets. I remember reading once a news report about a woman who died after doing a severe form of Atkins(no carbs at all I'm not surprised that people can incur health-problems from eating only cooked, grainfed meats all the time.

Re cold-smoked:- Well, if smoke is involved, then that's still a pollutant, even if the  appropriate temperature isn't exceeded.

[SkinnyDevil]

... I finally figured out that Hunter came first in the Hunter/Gatherer thing.  I finally figured out that we should eat mostly meat and fat (Hunter) and eat just a small amount of the plant stuff when meat is not available or when the local fruits are in season (Gatherer).  Some still believe that green plant foods are important, but I no longer believe this and now think that they are more damaging than helpful.  If green plants were consumed by our ancestors, I suspect it was more for medicinal purposes than sustenance....
Bottom line, I think Very Low Carb is probably the best approach for most people, and the carbs you do eat should come from fruits and veggies and not grains, beans, or dairy.

Lex,

I absolutely agree with the last sentence. I haven't had dairy, beans, or most grains in years. I do eat raw corn and once in a blue moon slow-cooked rice (brown & wild).

However, I'm wondering why you don't eat dairy (I was under the [mistaken?] impression that most paleo folks ate dairy. No?

Also wondering why it is you think the "hunter" part comes first.

Thanx!

[Hannibal]

Your body will tell you if you are doing something it doesn't like.  If you eat fruit and meat together and it causes discomfort then by all means separate the two foods.  If you eat them together and you experience no problems then why not continue to do so?  Our bodies are amazing.  All we have to do is listen to what it tells us.  Thirst means we need fluid, hunger means we need food, discomfort is a warning that something is not right.
We would be better served to eat our food, (whatever we choose it to be), live our life, and listen to what our body tells us without obsessing over complicated made-up nonsense.

Lex

You are absolutely right, Lex
We should listen to our body - that's very important principle

[SkinnyDevil]

You are absolutely right, Lex
We should listen to our body - that's very important principle

Agreed.

However, what does one do so that they can trust their body? Think of everyone you know who has chocolate cravings or coffee cravings or soda cravings or cigarette cravings. Think of everyone you know who gets ill at the thought or touch or taste of raw meat.

I've trusted my body for years (and occasionally fast), which is the primary reason that I was already eating a high level of raw (including some raw meats). However, there are folks with all manner of dietary philosophies I've crossed paths with over the years who vehemently oppose my eating habits (too much meat, shouldn't eat raw meat, not enough meat, too many veggies, too many fruits, blah, blah...and arguing with me about what exactly constitutes a TRUE human diet).

Personally, I think experimenting, research, & periodic fasting are just as important.

[Satya]

However, I'm wondering why you don't eat dairy (I was under the [mistaken?] impression that most paleo folks ate dairy. No?

Also wondering why it is you think the "hunter" part comes first.

I am not Lex, but dairy is a food that came from the Neolithic or agricultural revolution, so it is not paleo for that reason alone.  Dairy isn't tolerated by more than half of the world's population.

Hunting was first and foremost in the paleolithic.  The evidence of it is clear.  
1. We find animal bones at human settlements, not plant debris.
2. Cave paintings show animals, hunters and weapons only - no gathering activity whatsoever
3. The entire planet during the paleolithic was always colder than now.  Even the tropics were not as warm as they are now. There were ice ages too.  Forget about ice sheets, there were just not as many plants on the planet then, even in tropical regions.  The neolithic came about because warmer global climates produced an explosion of plants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic#Paleogeography_and_climate
The effects of glaciation were global. Antarctica was ice-bound throughout the Pleistocene and the preceding Pliocene. The Andes were covered in the south by the Patagonian ice cap. There were glaciers in New Zealand and Tasmania. The now decaying glaciers of Mount Kenya, Mount Kilimanjaro, and the Ruwenzori Range in east and central Africa were larger. Glaciers existed in the mountains of Ethiopia and to the west in the Atlas mountains. In the northern hemisphere, many glaciers fused into one. The Cordilleran ice sheet covered the North American northwest; the Laurentide covered the east. The Fenno-Scandian ice sheet covered northern Europe, including Great Britain; the Alpine ice sheet covered the Alps. Scattered domes stretched across Siberia and the Arctic shelf. The northern seas were frozen. During the late Upper Paleolithic (Latest Pleistocene) c. 18?000 BP, the Beringa land bridge between Asia and North America was blocked by ice[13] which may have prevented early Paleo-Indians such as the Clovis culture from directly crossing Beringa to reach the Americas.

According to Mark Lynas (through collected data), the Pleistocene's overall climate could be characterized as a continuous El Niño with trade winds in the south Pacific weakening or heading east, warm air rising near Peru, warm water spreading from the west Pacific and the Indian Ocean to the east Pacific, and other El Niño markers.[14]

The ice age ended with the end of the Paleolithic era (the end of the Pleistocene epoch), and Earth's climate became warmer. This may have caused or contributed to the extinction of the Pleistocene megafauna, although it is also possible that the late Pleistocene extinctions were (at least in part) caused by other factors such as disease and over hunting by humans.[15][16] New research suggests that the extinction of the Woolly mammoth may have been caused by the combined effect of climatic change and human hunting.[16] Scientists suggest that climate change during the end of the Pleistocene caused the mammoths' habitat to shrink in size, resulting in a drop in population. The small populations were then hunted out by Paleolithic humans.[16] The global warming that occurred during the end of the Pleistocene and the beginning of the Holocene may have made it easier for humans to reach mammoth habitats that were previously frozen and inaccessible.[16]

[goodsamaritan]

Interesting & informative responses.

Query: With so many eating such high levels of animal food stuffs, how do you avoid the typical "Atkins" complications? Stress on kidneys, high cholesterol, etc (not to mention expense).

The secret is in the raw fat.  You buffer the raw protein consumption with lots of raw fat.  There are no atkins complications when you eat good amounts of raw fat.

The problem with atkins... which I did around 2002, is in the consumption of cooked meat... always cooked meat... and not enough fat... cooked meat and raw meat are different classes of food.

[TylerDurden]

Re palaeolithic era:- Plant-residue is much more difficult to find in fossil-evidence solely because almost all organic residue(meat and especially plants) is very difficult to preserve over millenia.Because bones, unlike meats /plants, do last a long time in the archaeological record, it's possible to determine meat-consumption existed, but more difficult to determine the amounts of plants that were eaten. That said, in the last couple of decades, there've been a number of reports and scientific studies etc. which show that plant-consumption did indeed exist in the Palaeolithic era to quite an extent:-

http://www.springerlink.com/content/u386383180288602/

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=470712

Another obvious point to make is that there were constant ice-age cycles throughout the palaeolithic with warm interglacials inbetween each Ice-Age cycle lasting for long millenia:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_glaciation

so, it's clear that the palaeolithic era had plenty of warm periods, here and there, not counting tropical areas(those tropical areas couldn't have been much colder than the current Mediterranean climate as global temperature difference between ice-age and modern times is only something like 16 degrees fahrenheit(8.8 degrees celsius).

And, just as important, the maps shown for each of the various ice-age eras show the fullest extent of the ice/glaciers of each ice-age cycle, whereas , of course, the ice-sheets fluctuated wildly in size during each cycle, being often smaller than the extreme shown.


Also, re the extinction of megafauna:- given that the dominant theory is that humans killed off those megafauna(c.40,000 years ago), it seems logical to assume that they were forced to turn to other sources(ie plants) to some extent, well before the neolithic era.

[wodgina]

'Only' 8.8 degrees celsius! Oh man

[TylerDurden]

'Only' 8.8 degrees celsius! Oh man

Consider. Average temperature in the wet tropics is, in winter generally above 18 degrees celsius, with temperatures  exceeding 50 degrees celsius at times, during each year(so that would mean a palaeo range of 10 degrees celsius to  temperatures exceeding 40 degrees celsius, hardly an arctic environment).

*Hmm, I got that 8.8 figure from a global warming site, and global warming has its own agenda re making up extreme figures -  and, having checked other sources , which give figures of 6 or 7:-
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=QvVUV52d68AC&pg=PA19&lpg=PA19&dq=ice+age+wurm+average+global+temperature&source=bl&ots=s8jA5alm_x&sig=SViq7dniTVMD_nll14qZbPb0wvQ&hl=en&ei=TWY3SrvdLdWZjAfCt-GZDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6

 degrees celsius by contrast, there's good reason to believe it's lower.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_India