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Offline MrBBQ

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Confuzzled...
« on: June 21, 2009, 05:51:01 pm »
Hey all,

May I introduce myself as a curious party, hehe...Cool forum with interesting people!

I'm living in Sheffield, United Kingdom and I've been experimenting with raw veganism and raw animal foods. I initially became interested in raw food preparation due to dental cavities, but despite various anecdotes from raw vegans, I've certainly not been successful with that approach (2 years of great effort/fasting/cleansing). Apparently, there are people who thrive solely on plants/fruits/etc., but from what I've read, that's very challenging, even in the presence of a very symbiotic GI tract and no biliary/GB/liver debris to clear away.

I've noticed some anecdotes on here asserting that teeth have strengthened with zero carbs and all animal meat/fat, which I find very interesting (it totally flies in the face of renal acid load and internal hygiene/endotoxin/mycotoxin theory). Many disease recovery programs cite that meat promotes dysbiosis of the GI tract (recommending elimination of any raw/cooked animal products) and also provides no fibre or antioxidants...I'm confused!

Nevertheless, I'm considering transitioning to eating some land (already eating sashimi+egg yolks) animal meats raw, but I'm a newbie when it comes to a safe approach. I recently had a bad experience with raw farmed salmon, which I would not like to repeat!

Does anyone know a good source in the UK for grass-fed meat? I know only one shop in my city that offers grass-fed meat (www.realmeat.co.uk), which comes from southern England.

Assuming that I use this company for my meat, what should I ask them to ensure that the flesh is safe for raw consumption (bacteria, parasites etc.)? Should the butcher be able to identify worms/larvae/eggs in muscles/organs?

Is there any marinade that destroys parasites/bacteria without denaturing the meat/fat?

Do most butchers give out free fat and bones? Is it easy to remove the marrow and then slow cook the bones for broth? Is fat difficult to chew?

Does anyone use the high vitamin fermented cod liver oil (high quality, unprocessed) and ghee as a supplement of fat-soluble vitamins (I realise ghee is cooked, but it would be the exception in a high raw diet)?

One last thing, I've heard about bacterial amines being formed on meat, especially after 2 weeks from slaughter. What does everyone consider fresh and how fresh/tender is a good compromise?

Is anyone just eating fat without all that protein? Really, I would like plenty of fat for the vitamins, but not massive amounts of protein. I also find it interesting that raw meat provides a measure of vitamin C (an antioxidant!).

I'll stop there because I'm sure I've already stretched your attention span to daydreaming point.

Any insights would be greatly appreciated, thanks!

All the best,

Scott M
« Last Edit: June 21, 2009, 05:59:45 pm by MrBBQ »
When hungry eat, when tired sleep - this is the essence of Zen...

Offline MrBBQ

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Re: Confuzzled...
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2009, 06:07:32 pm »
Oh, one more thing...dehydration!

Is anyone preparing jerky (meat/fish) or herby/spiced burgers/sausages (from ground meat) in the dehydrator?

Also, what about the impact of freezing/thawing on nutrients/taste/texture?

As a n00b, sorry if I'm repeating past posts or blog FAQs...(!)

Scott M
When hungry eat, when tired sleep - this is the essence of Zen...

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Re: Confuzzled...
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2009, 07:14:29 pm »
Oh, one more thing...dehydration!

Is anyone preparing jerky (meat/fish) or herby/spiced burgers/sausages (from ground meat) in the dehydrator?

Also, what about the impact of freezing/thawing on nutrients/taste/texture?

As a n00b, sorry if I'm repeating past posts or blog FAQs...(!)

Scott M

This forum is blessed with the presence of the master dryer/pemmican maker; google Lex Rooker pemmican and Lex Rooker jerky for the best howto.
Or use the search function here.

Others can better answer your other questions, but google and searching this forum is still recommended.

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Confuzzled...
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2009, 12:47:10 am »
I've noticed some anecdotes on here asserting that teeth have strengthened with zero carbs and all animal meat/fat, which I find very interesting (it totally flies in the face of renal acid load and internal hygiene/endotoxin/mycotoxin theory).

I'm one of those who found that bone density in my jaw increased, loose teeth firmed up, gums quit bleeding, teeth that were losing enamel became hard again etc.  All the conventional wisdom you read about renal overload and such is nonsense.  I've been eating primarily meat and fat for many years now and my health has done nothing but improve.

Many disease recovery programs cite that meat promotes dysbiosis of the GI tract (recommending elimination of any raw/cooked animal products) and also provides no fibre or antioxidants...I'm confused!

Again, this seems to be a myth.  My doctor paniced when I decided to go Zero Carb several years ago.  He said that I'd face all kinds of deficiencies, my cholesterol would go off the charts, I'd be risking kidney failure, colon polyps would run rampant risking colon cancer, constant constipation due to lack of fiber, and a host of other problems.  None of it occurred and in fact, all my lab tests improved to well within the normal range and they get better each year that I stay with a Very Low Carb Paleo diet.  I had a colonoscopy a year ago and all polyps from the previous test had disappeared and the GI specialist told me that my colon was in such good shape that I would never again need to repeat the procedure.  Complete opposite of what the doctors and popular press tell you will happen.

Does anyone know a good source in the UK for grass-fed meat? I know only one shop in my city that offers grass-fed meat (www.realmeat.co.uk), which comes from southern England.

Tyler Durden is the best person to answer this one.

Assuming that I use this company for my meat, what should I ask them to ensure that the flesh is safe for raw consumption (bacteria, parasites etc.)? Should the butcher be able to identify worms/larvae/eggs in muscles/organs? Is there any marinade that destroys parasites/bacteria without denaturing the meat/fat?
Do most butchers give out free fat and bones? Is it easy to remove the marrow and then slow cook the bones for broth? Is fat difficult to chew?

Generally speaking, most of us have been eating large amounts of raw meat and have never encountered any problem with bacteria or parasites.  Not saying they don't exist, but after about 4 years of eating only raw meat and fat you'd think that if there was going to be a problem I'd have run into it by now.  In fact, many of us eat meat that has been either sitting out in room temperature for many hours and turned a bit sour tasting, or purposely created "High Meat" in the fridge in an effort to add bacteria into our diets.  Our paleo ancestors had no refrigeration or other long term storage methods to keep meat fresh.  Once they took a large animal down, it would begin to rot, and depending on the temperature could get rather "ripe" in a very short time.  They also didn't have fancy butcher shops with sterile stainless steel tables and poly cutting boards and did their butchering with sharp rocks and sticks on the dirt and grass.  We are well adapted to handling bacteria in our digestive systems or we wouldn't have made it this far.  Many of us are of the opinion that we have a symbiotic relationship with these decay causing bacteria and that they are actually good for our health.  I long ago threw away all the disinfectants in my house with nothing but good effects to my health.

Does anyone use the high vitamin fermented cod liver oil (high quality, unprocessed) and ghee as a supplement of fat-soluble vitamins (I realise ghee is cooked, but it would be the exception in a high raw diet)?

I personally use no supplements at all and haven't for many years.  I'm rare in that I'm totally Zero Carb and eat only raw meat (I don't necessarily recommend this, I think most people do better on Very Low Carb) for about 4 years straight and have absolutely no signs of any deficiencies and infact the exact opposite.  All previous signs of deficiencies disappeared when I went VLC Paleo and they haven't return after 4 years of (fanatical?) zero carb.  I don't think you'll have any worries with nutrition eating this way.

One last thing, I've heard about bacterial amines being formed on meat, especially after 2 weeks from slaughter. What does everyone consider fresh and how fresh/tender is a good compromise?

So what is "fresh"?  Once something dies it starts to decay immediately.  If in a warm area it will be bloated and well on it's way to becoming a liquid goo within hours, and certainly not 2 weeks.  Amines may be formed in the decay process, I have no idea, but to think that our bodies can't handle this would indicate that we shouldn't be here at all because our paleo ancestors, without modern methods of preservation, would have eaten lots and lots of these amines.

Is anyone just eating fat without all that protein? Really, I would like plenty of fat for the vitamins, but not massive amounts of protein. I also find it interesting that raw meat provides a measure of vitamin C (an antioxidant!).

I've tried eating all fat without protein and found after a few days that I craved protein, just as when eating all protein, after a short time I started craving fat.

I don't think that meat meets our vitamin C requirement.  Current theory is that uric acid steps in as an even more powerful antioxidant and takes the place of vitamin C.  No idea if this is correct, but this is what some of the latest research is pointing to.  It seems that the role of antioxidants is to give up an electron to neutralize the charge of free radicals.  Vitamin C plays this role and according to the latest reseach, uric acid does this even better, thereby reducing or possibly eliminating the need for actual vitamin C.

Is anyone preparing jerky (meat/fish) or herby/spiced burgers/sausages (from ground meat) in the dehydrator?

I make jerky and pemmican but not sausages or other meats preserved with chemicals. 

Jerky could be considered paleo in that it just uses a natural dehydrating process - especially when done at low temperatures, usually below 120F.  Salting or seasoning the meat is not paleo, and though my Jerky Maker manual shows seasoning the meat, this was done for the Boy Scouts for whom I first created the manual.  I use very little seasoning and usually none at all. Here's a link to my Jerky Maker instructions.  Thousands of these have been successfully built and used.

http://www.traditionaltx.us/images/JerkyDrierInstructions.pdf

Pemmican is not strictly paleo because it uses rendered fat which is not a technology available in the paleo era.  I eat mainly raw meat for my diet, but do eat pemmican when traveling or in situations where carrying raw meat is inconvenient.  I make (and eat) my pemmican without any salt or seasonings whatsoever.  Eating salted pemmican for more than a few days as your primary food will cause nutritional deficiencies, where eating unsalted pemmican will not.  No clue why this is so, it just is.  I've eaten pemmican for up to a month at a time as my only food and have never experienced any health issues at all, in fact, I feel great.  I eat about 1 lb per day. I also know others (and one entire family including childern) who eat only unseasoned pemmican as their only food - in the case of the family, for almost 5 years now.  The children who are ages 3 and 5 have known no other food. Pemmican may not be strictly paleo, but when properly made, it is clearly a food that supports all our nutritional needs.  Here's a link to my Pemmican Manual.  You may find this useful as well:

http://www.traditionaltx.us/images/PEMMICAN.pdf

Also, what about the impact of freezing/thawing on nutrients/taste/texture?

There is much agonizing and hand wringing over this subject.  I consume frozen and thawed raw meat all the time as it is the most efficient way for me to get my food which comes from over 1,000 miles away.  I have had zero problem.  Many people insist that freezing damages the cellular structure of the meat.  Well, yes that's true, but so does chewing the meat, or letting the meat slowly decay in the refrigerator, or just about anything else we do or don't do to it.  Meat starts to decay  and breakdown from bacteria and enzymes in the meat the instant the animal dies.  Freezing slows this process down but doesn't entirely stop it.  Freezing is a natural process and happens naturally in our normal environment without any additional use of technology.  If our paleo ancestors made a kill in the winter, it would freeze on it's own - without any help from humans.  In fact, we would have had to go to heroic efforts to keep it from freezing.

Does freezing do measurable physical damage to the meat (just like cutting, chewing, or other mechanical damage) yes.  Does this critically impact the nutritional quality of the meat, I've seen no evidence of this.  In this case, you pays your money and you takes your choice.  Feel free to obsess and agonize over this issue if you are in need of something additional to worry over in your life.  As for me, I' have better things to do.

Lex
« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 12:58:02 am by lex_rooker »

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Confuzzled...
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2009, 01:27:59 am »
Hey all,

May I introduce myself as a curious party, hehe...Cool forum with interesting people!

I'm living in Sheffield, United Kingdom and I've been experimenting with raw veganism and raw animal foods. I initially became interested in raw food preparation due to dental cavities, but despite various anecdotes from raw vegans, I've certainly not been successful with that approach (2 years of great effort/fasting/cleansing). Apparently, there are people who thrive solely on plants/fruits/etc., but from what I've read, that's very challenging, even in the presence of a very symbiotic GI tract and no biliary/GB/liver debris to clear away.

Quite, most people don't do well on raw vegan diets given the nutritional deficiencies that can crop up over the years.

Quote
I've noticed some anecdotes on here asserting that teeth have strengthened with zero carbs and all animal meat/fat, which I find very interesting (it totally flies in the face of renal acid load and internal hygiene/endotoxin/mycotoxin theory). Many disease recovery programs cite that meat promotes dysbiosis of the GI tract (recommending elimination of any raw/cooked animal products) and also provides no fibre or antioxidants...I'm confused!

Well, I'm one of those whose dental health actually worsened on (raw)zero-carb, so I guess everyone's different.
  I would suggest caution when switching from 1 extreme to another after being years on the former diet. The body tends to change/adapt on any particular diet so that raw vegans often find the digestion of meat an issue after being years on raw vegan, zero-carbers experience side-effects when transitioning back to including carbs, however raw etc.


AFAIK, meat does have some antioxidants such as vitamin E(?)

Quote
Nevertheless, I'm considering transitioning to eating some land (already eating sashimi+egg yolks) animal meats raw, but I'm a newbie when it comes to a safe approach. I recently had a bad experience with raw farmed salmon, which I would not like to repeat!

Farmed salmon contains canthanxanthin a cancer-causing dye and has a very unhealthy nutrient-profile by comparison to wild salmon. It's common for people on RVAF diets to start on the "easy" raw foods like raw eggs or raw seafood and then work their way up to raw meats and ultimately raw organ-meats, high-meat and meats/organs from wild animals.

Quote
Does anyone know a good source in the UK for grass-fed meat? I know only one shop in my city that offers grass-fed meat (www.realmeat.co.uk), which comes from southern England.

Assuming that I use this company for my meat, what should I ask them to ensure that the flesh is safe for raw consumption (bacteria, parasites etc.)? Should the butcher be able to identify worms/larvae/eggs in muscles/organs?

Every RVAF newbie starts off with the notion that bacteria and parasites are a deadly danger. Eventually, after years of eating such unusual items such as rotting meat, they finally come to the conclusion that there is no danger re raw meats. For one thing, modern western agriculture routinely feeds their cattle(however organic) with deworming medicines and , as long as you eat only grassfed or wild meats, issues like e coli aren't a problem. As gets drummed into our heads, it is the quality of the environment that is more important an issue than the so-c\alled pathogen . For example, I remember Aajonus citing a study confirming that salmonella existed in 38% of all US households, yet there is no ever-present salmonella epidemic.That said, you will initially feel compelled, like us in previous times, to use anti-parasitical herbs like wormwood tincture, cayenne pepper, garlic etc. etc., for a period of a few months or years until you eventually come to realise there's no danger. So, buy those raw spices for now.

Quote
Is there any marinade that destroys parasites/bacteria without denaturing the meat/fat?
AFAIK, any marinade that kills bacteria automatically denatures the raw meat it's in, BUT the denaturing isn't anywhere near as harsh as what occurs during cooking.

Quote
Do most butchers give out free fat and bones? Is it easy to remove the marrow and then slow cook the bones for broth? Is fat difficult to chew?

Some butchers/farmers have given me free fat and bones if I also bought other more expensive meats, but if I overdid this, it  generally caused ill-feeling as they naturally felt exploited, even though no one else ever bought the stuff. So if they say you can have it for free, if you make a regular order, make sure to sooner or later request a decent price for the meats.

Don't make broth, it's totally unnecessary and cooking/heating is always harmful to any food.

Quote
Does anyone use the high vitamin fermented cod liver oil (high quality, unprocessed) and ghee as a supplement of fat-soluble vitamins (I realise ghee is cooked, but it would be the exception in a high raw diet)?

Ghee is not only derived from dairy, a highly toxic Neolithic food, but is pasteurised so to be avoided LIKE THE PLAGUE like any other cooked animal fat(cooked animal fat has a high heat-created toxin-load).

I do use a raw, fermented cod liver oil product sold by Blue Ice, the only product I trust in this regard. This is solely because, in the past, I've sometimes had to go abroad for a month at a time and had only been able to source raw grainfed meats, so the raw cod liver oil provided some of the omega-3 fatty acids I was missing during that period.

Quote
One last thing, I've heard about bacterial amines being formed on meat, especially after 2 weeks from slaughter. What does everyone consider fresh and how fresh/tender is a good compromise?

You don't need to worry about amines unless you are unusually hypersensitive to them. Most people find that amine-rich food(such as rotting meat) actually digests far better than fresh, raw meats.

Quote
Is anyone just eating fat without all that protein? Really, I would like plenty of fat for the vitamins, but not massive amounts of protein. I also find it interesting that raw meat provides a measure of vitamin C (an antioxidant!).

Eating too much raw fat can be a problem as we've discovered(excessive weight-gain has been reported etc.)

 Basically, there are a lot of vegan-derived myths re too much protein being bad for you. As long as you're eating either some carbs or some fats, then you don't have to worry about the protein issue.


Re organic grassfed meats in the UK:- Here's some links which cover details re the toxicity of cooked foods etc. plus a link as to where to find supplies of grassfed meats:-

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/important-info-for-newbies/

My own personal preference is farmers' markets but so many grassfed meat farms now deliver to your door that the latter might be an option if you're into bulk-buying. As I'm a UKer, first go through the various options I've outlined in the above link re where to buy raw foods, if you still have difficulty , feel free to e-mail me and I'll provide further info.


"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Confuzzled...
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2009, 01:35:15 am »
Quote
Is anyone preparing jerky (meat/fish) or herby/spiced burgers/sausages (from ground meat) in the dehydrator?

Also, what about the impact of freezing/thawing on nutrients/taste/texture?


Re jerky:- I don't bother with all that. First of all, many dehydration methods either stick too close to the base temperature where cooking starts doing harm to foods or go over that baseline. Secondly, one of the many reasons why I do this RVAF diet is because it saves so much time(all I usually have to do is use a meat-knife to cut up the pieces or just tear off chunks of raw meat with my teeth if no one else is around!) - so, for me, preparing jerky etc. is a  terrible waste of time.And I don't travel all over the place, usually sticking to 1 general area while on holiday, so if I do find myself without access to decent high-quality grassfed raw meat, I'll just eat some raw fruit for a couple of days, instead, while I look around for additional meat-sources.


I think I provided a link detailing the effects of freezing on foods in the child boards section of the general discussions forum on this board. Basically, freezing slightly damages the structure of enzymes in the food(some rawists argue that prolonger freezing destroyes all enzymes over a 2 month period, I think?), plus taste is markedly reduced as the freezing process destroys the cell-walls(via ice-crystal-formation) thus leeching off nutrients.

Most rawists prefer eating raw fresh foods but accept that freezing does nowhere near as much damage as cooking.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline MrBBQ

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Re: Confuzzled...
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2009, 02:36:10 am »
Wow, what a great community - nice one for the comprehensive responses, which I really appreciate.

The farmed salmon was a one off because no wild salmon or tuna was available at the time. Apparently, they don't use the colouring according to organic standards, but I suppose that's probably subjective!

I've been eating plenty of raw egg yolks and sashimi (from my local sushi takeaway) throughout the week, along with organic fruits and some salad vegetables, so I'm looking to take the next step really.

Should I start off with muscle meats in strict moderation the first day (like one slither) and then work my way up to 100-200g after a week or two?

So if I understand correctly, I just buy the meat, give it a quick inspection for small worms or whatever and then chow down?! Is it prudent to rinse the meat or anything? Also, what are the indicators for parasitic/bacterial infection - is it only panickers that end up in hospital with food poisoning? Also, did anyone notice severe constipation and very bulky stools, which are difficult to pass?

Is raw pork safe? Is the fat safer than the protein portion?

Please don't think I'm taking liberties with all this quizzing!

All the best,

Scott M
When hungry eat, when tired sleep - this is the essence of Zen...

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Confuzzled...
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2009, 04:18:28 am »
The farmed salmon was a one off because no wild salmon or tuna was available at the time. Apparently, they don't use the colouring according to organic standards, but I suppose that's probably subjective!

For me the problem with "farmed" salmon or any other fish is that they are fed Fish Chow made from vegetables and grains, not the things that fish in the wild eat.  What has caused most of the problems with our current meat supply is that we feed our cattle an unnatural food and this significantly alters the fatty acid profile as well as other nutrients.  Omega3 can drop from 25% - 50% of fatty acids to less than 5% of total fatty acids while "fattening" on grains in a feed lot.  The same happens with fish or any other "farmed" critter.  Stay away from them unless it is shown that they were fed their true natural diet.

I've been eating plenty of raw egg yolks..... 

I'm personally not a huge fan of eggs.  I do eat them once in a while (a couple of times per year), but the idea that they were some mainstay of a paleo diet just doesn't seem reasonable to me.  Wild eggs are very seasonal, and pretty much only available for a few weeks during the spring.  Most eggs are very small compared to the huge chicken, duck, and turkey eggs we find in commercial trade today.  They also would be rapidly developing into small birds so it is far more likely that rather than finding eggs with nice clear yellow yolks, we would have feasted on a few embryos in various stages of becoming birds.  There are also many people that are allergic to eggs but not allergic to meat.  Altogether this makes me feel that eggs might have been an occasional windfall item, but certainly not any significant part of our diet.  I don't avoid them but I do limit them to maybe a dozen eggs total per year, eaten in maybe 2 different meals - usually when on vacation with others and I have breakfast as a social event.

Should I start off with muscle meats in strict moderation the first day (like one slither) and then work my way up to 100-200g after a week or two?

Up to you.  I started with muscle meats, then came to believe that at least some organ meats were necessary to get all the available nutrients, but have seen so many people do well on muscle meats (along with enough fat) alone that I'm not so sure anymore.  I still eat a small amount of organ meats every day (between 100g and 200g) as part of my total food intake of 1kg.  I've never experienced a deficiency, even when eating only pemmican or other muscle based meats for several weeks at a time, but continue eating the organ meats as "insurance".  I've been doing so well I just don't want to change what's working for me.

So if I understand correctly, I just buy the meat, give it a quick inspection for small worms or whatever and then chow down?! Is it prudent to rinse the meat or anything? Also, what are the indicators for parasitic/bacterial infection - is it only panickers that end up in hospital with food poisoning?

As Tyler said, we all go through the "worry over parasites" phase, and after awhile we get so lazy that we don't do much of anything but purchase and eat.  I spend maybe 20 minutes per week total in preparing food.  I then spend maybe 30 to 45 minutes per day eating it.  I eat about 1kg or 2 lbs in one meal each day.

Also, did anyone notice severe constipation and very bulky stools, which are difficult to pass?

As you body adapts to a meat and fat based diet you may go through short periods of constipation followed by loose stools.  What most of us experience is a significant reduction in the bulk of our stools (between 1/4 and 1/3) of when we were eating a large carb load.  Our colons are conditioned to this large bulk and on a primarily meat diet it may take several days for the amount of waste to build up to the point to trigger a bowel movement.  During that time you probably won't feel "constipated", but you'll be worried that you are only because of the infrequency of your BMs.  This seems to be normal.  Over time, you're bowels will shrink and adapt to the smaller waste load and you'll have more frequent BMs.  Mine started out every 3 or 4 days with an evacuated bulk similar to when eating a mixed diet.  Over the last 4 years my BM's have become more frequent - sometimes daily - with a very small bulk, maybe the size of your thumb or a little larger.

After the transition phase which can take several weeks, most of us find evacuations smooth and easier than ever before.

Is raw pork safe? Is the fat safer than the protein portion?

I don't eat a lot of pork as it is almost impossible to find pork that isn't raised almost totally on artificial Hog Chow.  That said, today's pork industry is so well regulated and inspected that the parasites and other problems are almost totally gone.  I'm sure there is a little more risk eating pork than red meat, but certainly not enough for me to not eat pork if it was the only meat available to me.

Lex


Offline MrBBQ

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Re: Confuzzled...
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2009, 05:45:53 am »
Amazing, once again, a rapid, comprehensive response...Kudos!

I actually read your story Lex and you're certainly experiential in your approach, which I can appreciate.

My concern about parasites is based on research that I undertook when considering sashimi (WAI experimentation) for my pleasure. There were some reports (as an example) about parasite larvae from line caught mackerel sashimi causing temporary small intestine obstruction, which was very distressing for the consumer! I'd prefer not to induce my stress response on that account...I hate to involve allopathic medicine...

I'm pretty aware about the dynamics of the food chain (impact on fatty acid profile etc.), which is why I wouldn't eat non-pastured land animals or farmed fish, but one can only do one's best to bring in what one can!

Previously, my approach to transitioning between eating styles has been radical and overnight, but I'm gradually realising that the tippy toe waltz is the best facilitator of welcome change.

Tomorrow, I'll be visiting my local pastured meat supplier with the intention of picking up a nice cut of beef muscle along with some fat and bones...Can anyone recommend a particular cut for the n00b please?

Does anyone have a penchant for eyeballs or gonads (pretty high in nutrients)?! Hehe...

Incidentally, is everyone here accustomed to the practice of clearing old debris from the biliary system? Optimal bile flow is the critical factor in digestion and detoxification, amongst many other things. Bile means the difference between effective peristalsis and slowww digestive transit. I'm currently peeling the onion that is my bile occlusion and the more I kick out, the better I feel on a complete systemic scale.

I'm really wondering what it will be like to chew on raw flesh/fat tomorrow...

Does anyone use homemade mustard or horseradish, like they use wasabi/ginger with sashimi?
When hungry eat, when tired sleep - this is the essence of Zen...

Offline rafonly

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dietary dha
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2009, 12:16:01 pm »

"I'm pretty aware about the dynamics of the food chain (impact on fatty acid profile etc.)"

good for you!

in my case, what really keeps me from eating prefrozen or cooked meat ultimately just boils down to 1 key thing:
dietary long chain pufa's esp. such long chain omega-3 as dha

why so?
unlike mufa's & sat fat's, which the body either uses as fuel or stores as adipose tissue, pufa's are invisibly hiding in all cell membranes
now, it so happens that both freezing & high temperature (perhaps above 40c/108f) destroy/burst open all cell membranes > there goes the precious dha that would otherwise have nourished your brain, eyes, nervous system, etc. etc. > down the drain or up in the air

myself, i prefer to avoid this vicious circle: the less dha i eat the worse my brain works, the more incapable i become of noticing the value of dha...

but, of course, every1 = an individual
most of the human population on the planet has never heard of dha...

"time & gradient precede existence", me

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Confuzzled...
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2009, 04:58:35 pm »
Wow, what a great community - nice one for the comprehensive responses, which I really appreciate.

The farmed salmon was a one off because no wild salmon or tuna was available at the time. Apparently, they don't use the colouring according to organic standards, but I suppose that's probably subjective!

Even organic-raised salmon are fed on grain products and other rubbish(which wild fish don't eat). Just eat wild-caught fish and (maybe) eat some types of farmed shellfish(oysters and mussels and other shelled shellfish tend to just be left out to feed on nutrients from ocean currents, so are safer).

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I've been eating plenty of raw egg yolks and sashimi (from my local sushi takeaway) throughout the week, along with organic fruits and some salad vegetables, so I'm looking to take the next step really.

Should I start off with muscle meats in strict moderation the first day (like one slither) and then work my way up to 100-200g after a week or two?

That's one alternative. You could also start eating cooked meat and then gradually lower the temperature by 1 degree every day until, finally, you can eat raw meat at room-temperature.

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So if I understand correctly, I just buy the meat, give it a quick inspection for small worms or whatever and then chow down?! Is it prudent to rinse the meat or anything? Also, what are the indicators for parasitic/bacterial infection - is it only panickers that end up in hospital with food poisoning? Also, did anyone notice severe constipation and very bulky stools, which are difficult to pass?

We don't even bother to inspect the meats - what's the point? And rinsing gets rid of nice things like the blood.

Re food-poisoning:- It is very rare, if at all, to have food-poisoning from raw foods. That can only really happen if one is eating very unhealthy raw foods, such as grainfed meats. Other than that, one can be allergic to some raw foods(I'm heavily allergic to raw dairy and raw coconut-oil, for example)

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Is raw pork safe? Is the fat safer than the protein portion?

There have been some ridiculous scares re trichinosis in pork, but the truth is that the rate of trichinosis in western countries is almost nonexistent, due to frequent deworming of pigs etc. Now, if you were eating meat in a tropical country that might have been contaminated(via unhealthy farming practices), it might be an issue -otherwise, forget it.

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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Confuzzled...
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2009, 05:03:39 pm »
Amazing, once again, a rapid, comprehensive response...Kudos!



Tomorrow, I'll be visiting my local pastured meat supplier with the intention of picking up a nice cut of beef muscle along with some fat and bones...Can anyone recommend a particular cut for the n00b please?

It doesn't matter. Choose the cheaper cuts of meat - they are often fattier(which is good) and the lower price will benefit you.

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Does anyone have a penchant for eyeballs or gonads (pretty high in nutrients)?! Hehe...

Very few people are able to get hold of those unusual organs. I didn't like the raw stag testicles I was once given, to be honest, and I still haven't found a source for raw eyeballs(known to be very fatty).



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Does anyone use homemade mustard or horseradish, like they use wasabi/ginger with sashimi?

Some rawists make their own raw mustard or raw vinegar or whatever, but, to be honest, long-term RVAFers generally prefer not using any additional condiments. Raw sauces/spices are mostly a newbie habit, meant to help to adjust to the taste of a raw food diet. Once one starts enjoying the taste of raw foods, spices become unnecessary. Besides, I have found that raw spices tend to increase one's appetite overly, and to speed up bowel-movements and digestion of foods(if not absorption?)
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Offline MrBBQ

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Re: Confuzzled...
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2009, 05:04:58 pm »
Hey rafonly,

Good for you too! In fact, good for all of us!

Nice adjunct in respect of the time honoured tradition of reconciling our nature with our present - I feel educated in considering this nuance, thanks.

Given that the aquatic medium presents a fair modicum of these long chain omega 3s, are you also incorporating those animal foods, or is there too much toxic payload from the oceans/waterways? Furthermore, I'm presuming you're a subscriber to interspecies organ donation on this account...So let me ask again - are you enjoying eyeballs and gonads?! Hehe...

The DHA-deficient mindset is surely a degenerative mindset - can you elucidate the wherefores of this mindset, because even after experimenting with algae, plankton, sashimi and high quality CLO sources over a long period of time (not on raw land animals until now!), I still struggle with attention and short term/working memory...Brain physiology is something that engages me no end, what with consideration for the past hypoxias, ischemias and infarctions that I must have suffered in my self-abuse.

Another aspect that I still cannot ignore is that both our internal and external physiology (somatotypically) are more representative of gatherers rather than hunters. To my mind, it seems that only by culture/intelligence and the requirement to survive have we adapted to some extent to eating animals, but our physiology still testifies to our frugivorous origins. One thing I can't understand is why humans don't produce uricase like other typical carnivores...

Also, with such attention to these PUFAs (or lipids in general), do you really know how much you're actually assimilating (maybe there's an even higher distinction)? Many humans with previously poor diets have compromised bile production due to excess deposits in the biliary system. Better assimilation means eating less and eating less is reputed (in fact is fairly well substantiated) to facilitate longevity (just a thought).

Any insights are always appreciated, thanks.

All the best,

Scott M
When hungry eat, when tired sleep - this is the essence of Zen...

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Confuzzled...
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2009, 10:41:32 pm »
Actually, the evidence makes it clear that humans are omnivores if one looks at the herbivorous and carnivorous teeth in the mouth, the digestive system etc.

Re IF:_ A lot of people now subscribe to the notion of IF leading to longer lifespan. Calroic restriction, on the other hand, seems to have the same effect re prolonging lifespan but ruins one's health in the long-term.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline MrBBQ

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Re: Confuzzled...
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2009, 04:45:06 am »
Thanks for attending to my questions/arguments. However, I'm looking to glean more information from you, if I can.

Initially, it's only by prosthetic/technological apparatus (from culture) and some adaptive intelligence that we have the capability to hunt, kill and butcher many animals - there's barely anything in our physiology that I've read that likens us to the "truer" omnivores. On many accounts, I struggle to comprehend how the human carnivore truly reconciles with nature. Having said that, maybe we adapted to raw animal foods in the presence of prosthetics/technology, yet we lack the typical short GI tract of omnivores/carnivores for rapid evacuation of putrefied matter (with it's complement of endo/mycotoxins). What's the general argument for low carbing? I mean, why have salivary amylase for carbohydrate pre-digestion if carbs are seldom ingested/masticated.

Having said all this, I shall be willing to adopt more raw animal foods along with the reduction of carbohydrates.

Also, calorie restriction with optimal nutrition in the context of optimal assimilation/absorption (quite a rare thing with all the atrophied intestinal villi, bile occlusion and the like) is a potential indicator for longevity, which is not often surveyed in a cross section of human populations...Time will obviously tell, but the Okinawans testify, along with some of the long-term CRON practitioners.

I think there's much to be said for a cross-disciplinary approach...

Once again, I really appreciate the sound attitude of everyone on this forum - definitely one of the best communities around!

All the best,

Scott M
When hungry eat, when tired sleep - this is the essence of Zen...

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Re: Confuzzled...
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2009, 06:29:50 am »

we lack the typical short GI tract of omnivores/carnivores for rapid evacuation of putrefied matter (with it's complement of endo/mycotoxins).


 What's the general argument for low carbing?


The  GI tract shrinks in the absence of carbs. We can feel the difference. As for putrefaction, my crap reeketh not, compared to my carb-eating days.

For a good argument, read "Good Calories Bad Calories" by Gary Taubes, and for a good read there is Bear's story at
http://activenocarber.myfreeforum.org/Bear_s_Words_Of_Wisdom_about22.html

William




Offline rafonly

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carnivorism = just for some human type
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2009, 12:37:25 pm »

yes, "time precedes existence":
to cite 1 example, as you can see in the pufa n-3 vs n-6 thread i started recently, the body stores omega-6 but not omega-3 > thus it takes 2-5 years to clean it up of stored excess inflammatory omega-6 (esp. the short & medium chain 1's from plant oils, eggs, dairy) -- not to mention the hormones in eggs & milk products

now, for recreation & entertainment, fun & games only, these are some of the things i've been doing these days, which may change anytime w/ no notice:

~ fish oil, not a nutrient extract but full-fledged & plain fish oil, from wild caught fish not molecular distilled (i.e. not overheated): it contains all pufa's & mufa's + tiny amounts of vit a & d (its epa content being lower than the combined sum of dha + other omega-3's, which is an advantage)

http://www.spectrumorganics.com/?id=252
{1 of these days i'll try the raw cod liver oil from green pastures & see how i like it}

~ i always buy local meat the day it's delivered to the meat market
i did eat prefrozen meat (never ground, though) for several months until i got literally sick 'n tired of its lack of fragrance & flavor
nowadays my preferred storage procedure is home dry aging -- never for more than 5 days; no plastic bag or vacuum sealing -- by wrapping the bone-in primal cuts of beef or goat i get in waxed paper & kitchen towels & setting the whole thing on the coldest fridge level short of freezing (replacing the towels as they get wet every 1-2 days)

~ re. hca amines, aromatic byproducts of heating, age's, etc. etc.:
sometimes i enjoy a meat soup > the meat 'n bones is covered w/ water so it doesn't smoke nor turn charred, set in cold (deionized) water w/ plenty of fresh rosemary (oregano, laurel if available) + dried garlic & ginger & then placed on med-low temp until it boils no more than for a few min
the resultant broth is such a unique tea/infusion!

here's my current theory:
carnivorism = just for some human gene-phene type

"time & gradient precede existence", me

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Confuzzled...
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2009, 05:00:30 pm »
Here's a 5-part essay giving the (biased) pro-meat theory re human digestion since you seem only to have come across the herbivore argument so far:-

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/carn_herb_comparison.html

Of course, both sides are flawed as humans can eat most everything. Granted, grains are a problem along with some other raw foods like raw legumes or raw dairy but otherwise they can eat everything else raw(so are  perhaps obligate omnivores).

Re technology:- Humans didn't need technology to eat raw flesh. The only exception I can think of is the use of flints to open up bones and skulls for the marrow and brains but otherwise eating the flesh is no problem.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 05:07:01 pm by TylerDurden »
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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: carnivorism = just for some human type
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2009, 06:28:37 pm »

here's my current theory:
carnivorism = just for some human gene-phene type


What is your human gene-phene type?
My guess is you add if the animal food found in the locale can sustain pure carnivory.

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Offline MrBBQ

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Re: Confuzzled...
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2009, 02:43:59 am »
I genuinely appreciate the activity in this thread and the opportunity to be educated in what seems like an alternative and very worthwhile discipline. Kudos to all the good characters...

I cannot stay around long enough this evening to reciprocate with some lively material, so I'll defer it 'til tomorrow when I can afford it the merit it deserves.

This "Bear" (as in the definite article - talk about self-appointment!) is an advocate of cooking and dairy to a minimal extent, is he not? Does this harmonise with the consensus here, or am I to understand otherwise (being a raw advocate myself)? Most of what the Bear says resonates very resoundingly (for most, if not all, I'm sure), but there are similarly compelling arguments from the other disciplines and their associated gurus (insulin is an easy one to confound, although I have to admit, there were some authoritative elucidations of its action without the usual overawing nomenclature and verbiage). Am I right to interpret that the gruff one is non-discriminative about how his prey is fed (pasture, grain etc.)? Ultimately, the Bear seems like a very accessible dictatorship, yet there are elements of downright ignorance in his partially experiential and wholly relentless paradigmatic onslaught. Suffice to say I'm learning...

Does anyone here advocate searing? Also, does anyone enjoy raw or seared bacon?

Still on the confuzzled thread, what are the best cuts of meat with plenty of marbling, or does it vary from creature to creature? Does anyone often eat raw lamb, which always seems to me to have a nice chunk of fat on it?

I promise that I won't perpetuate this confuzzled thread too much more...(hehe)

Thanks again everyone for this leg up onto the ladder.

All the best,

MrBBQ
When hungry eat, when tired sleep - this is the essence of Zen...

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Re: Confuzzled...
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2009, 05:51:34 am »
searing is a transitional thing - eventually you don't look forward to searing.
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Re: Confuzzled...
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2009, 06:37:56 am »
Eventually you look forward to running down a big bison and biting through his spinal cord and eating his organs raw RIGHT THERE.  LOL

No, really, you will start to enjoy the richness of a big piece of raw beef or lamb.  Who needs it seared? It takes time, but you'll get there. :)

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Re: Confuzzled...
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2009, 09:32:10 am »
Does anyone often eat raw lamb, which always seems to me to have a nice chunk of fat on it?

yes! i've been eating a lot of lamb lately. in my opinion it has a better taste than beef, but that might just be because its a relatively new meat to me. very good flavor and some of the fat definitely tastes like goat cheese!

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Re: Confuzzled...
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2009, 02:20:34 pm »
I only buy grass-fed lamb from New Zealand and it tastes sweet, but not as sweet as pork.
Lamb liver is slighly bitter, not as sweet as calf liver.
Eating raw fish and meat since 17.11.08. 99% raw since 25.04.08.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Confuzzled...
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2009, 05:31:44 pm »
I eat raw lamb frequently, but I prefer raw mutton when I can get it as it's fattier. I choose all parts of lamb/mutton so I don't think it matters which part you get.

Re searing:- The whole point of raw is that one benefits from the bacteria and enzymes. Even light-cooking, while not creating so many heat-created toxins, has no enzymes or bacteria so is not useful for rebuilding health.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

 

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