Author Topic: For First Time, Chimps Seen Making Weapons for Hunting!  (Read 14758 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,016
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: For First Time, Chimps Seen Making Weapons for Hunting!
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2009, 04:27:23 am »
Yes, I have noticed a correlation between high carb consumption and frantic behavior--a high-carb personality, if you will. It is reminiscent of the skittish behavior of plant-eating prey animals.

Err, I think you're going a bit too far here, re stereotyping. I mean, there are plenty of extremely placid herbivores.

This reminds me of a comment made by 1 scientist about another non-diet-related study. The latter study involved studying different political attitudes and it tried to show that Conservative-rightwing-minded people were more rigid/narrow-minded than Leftwing/Liberal people. As the other scientist pointed out, the study was hopelessly biased given the scientist involved, and that he wouldn't be at all surprised if  some similiar study in the near future would eventually come out supposedly "proving" that Conservative-minded males all had much smaller genitalia!
« Last Edit: September 06, 2009, 04:32:26 am by TylerDurden »
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline miles

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,904
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: For First Time, Chimps Seen Making Weapons for Hunting!
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2009, 05:38:15 am »
Everyone knows chimpanzees fish and go hunting. They hunt in bands to catch monkey meat, they do it for fun, not dissimilar from raids in World of Warcraft... 100% serious. They often THROW AWAY!!!!! fine pieces of meat they catch!!!!

LOL did you play WoW? What server? ThVeCo. ftw?
5-10% off your first purchase at http://www.iherb.com/ with dicount code: KIS978

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: For First Time, Chimps Seen Making Weapons for Hunting!
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2009, 10:46:47 pm »
Miles, FYI, SuperInfinity was banned, so you won't get any responses from him.


Err, I think you're going a bit too far here, re stereotyping. I mean, there are plenty of extremely placid herbivores.

This reminds me of a comment made by 1 scientist about another non-diet-related study. The latter study involved studying different political attitudes and it tried to show that Conservative-rightwing-minded people were more rigid/narrow-minded than Leftwing/Liberal people. As the other scientist pointed out, the study was hopelessly biased given the scientist involved, and that he wouldn't be at all surprised if  some similiar study in the near future would eventually come out supposedly "proving" that Conservative-minded males all had much smaller genitalia!
Tyler, I don't appreciate those comments, especially given that today you yourself proposed links between "mental issues" and consumption of cooked foods at http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/a-day-in-the-life-of-tylerdurden/msg16654/#msg16654:
What I find interesting is that it's cooked foods that are increasingly being linked to depression, schizophrenia, alzheimer's and other mental issues. This is because cooking creates opioids which act on the brain like drugs, causing all sorts of problems re mood etc.

I would be interested in any references you can provide on cooking and opioids, as I agree with you about the harmful nature of cooking (just not to the same degree as you) and would like them for my files. The evidence is even stronger for links between mental issues and certain carby foods like cereal grains, milk, and foods high in fructose, whether raw or cooked/pasteurized (though not many people eat raw grains, obviously). Call it stereotyping or whatever you like, I'm not going to lie about what I have personally observed and found in my research just to make it PC, nor do I expect you to lie about cooking just to make your own posts PC.

Consumption of cereals and milk also puts opioids into the bloodstream which act on the brain like drugs and there is more evidence of mental issues from these foods then there is from cooking:

"This genetic maladaptation between human nutrient requirements and those nutrients found in cereal grains manifests itself as vitamin and mineral deficiencies and other nutritionally related disorders, particularly when cereal grains are consumed in excessive quantity. More disturbing is the ability of cereal grain proteins (protease inhibitors, lectins, opioids and storage peptides) to interact with and alter human physiology. These interactions likely occur because of physiological similarities (resultant from phylogenetic commonalities) shared between humans and many herbivores which have traditionally preyed upon the gramineae family. The secondary compounds (antinutrients) occurring in cereal grains (gramineae family), were shaped by eons of selective pressure and were designed to prevent predation from traditional predators (insects, birds and ungulates) of this family of plants. Because primates and hominids evolved in the tropical forest, wherein dicotyledonous plants prevailed, the human physiology has virtually no evolutionary experience with monocotyledonous cereal grains, and hence very little adaptive response to a food group which now represents the staple food for many of the world's peoples." --Loren Cordain, "Cereal Grains: Humanity's Double-Edged Sword," 1999, www.thepaleodiet.com/articles/Cereal%20article.pdf

Opioids In The Food Supply
http://www.karlloren.com/diet/p18.htm#3
Here Karl Loren provides some evidence and discussion of opioids in grains and dairy. Beta-casomorphin-7, the dairy opioid, is present in all dairy products, both raw and pasteurized, but is most concentrated in the lowest-fat, highest-casein dairy products like lowfat milk and cottage cheese, since casomorphin is a protein peptide produced by digesting casein (see http://www.childrensmn.org/Manuals/PFS/Nutr/126098.pdf for a list of casein-containing foods). There is also mention of harmful opioids possibly being in blood, but no evidence is provided and Loren warns that the information comes from a vegetarian whose opinions on meat are suspect.

Wadley and Martin hypothesize that the drug-like properties of exorphin opioids produced by the consumption of cereal grains and dairy products "may have been the incentive for the initial adoption of agriculture" (Greg Wadley and Angus Martin, "The Origins of Agriculture: a biological perspective and a new hypothesis," Australian Biologist, June 1993, http://www.andrewdurham.com/origins.htm).
   
Dealing With Anxiety Attacks
http://www.treelight.com/health/healing/Anxiety.html
<<Cut Carbs

Perhaps the most important principle of all, though, is to limit carbohydrate intake. I have been on different dietary programs a couple of times, and each one virtually eliminated anxiety as a problem. One was the food-combining diet that Harvey and Marilyn Diamond popularized in their book, Fit for Life. Another was the diet in Enter the Zone, by Barry Sears.

What these diets have in common is a lot more fruits and vegetables, and protein, and a lot less cake, cookies, or bread. The lack of insulin-producing carbohydrate in the form of sugar and refined flour had a profound effect on anxiety levels.

Recently, I read the clearest explanation yet of why that is so. The explanation comes from Rob Faigin's book, Natural Hormonal Enhancement. (The book has a wealth of useful information. Unfortunately, it's not that readable. Michael Colgan's book, Hormonal Health, is a much better read -- but it doesn't cover this particular subject in as much detail.)

On page 101, Rob Faigin writes:

    "insulin...blocks fat burning and directs the body to use sugar for energy instead. So insulin remains in circulation after its purpose, to lower blood sugar, has been accomplished; and all this time insulin limits access to fat stores. The other fuel source, glucose, is not readily available either, because insulin escorted it out of the blood stream. At this point, the sugar burner is likely to experience unpleasant symptoms including any combination of the following: anxiety, bad mood, light-headedness, poor concentration, cognitive impairment, or "tense tiredness". Starving for sugar, the brain sends a resounding message to the body: EAT...">>

Sugar linked with mental problems in Norway study
2006
http://www.anxietyinsights.info/sugar_linked_with_mental_problems_in_norway_study.htm
"Oslo teens who drank the most sugary soft drinks also had more mental health problems such as hyperactivity and distress, Norwegian researchers reported...."

Fructose malabsorption is associated with early signs of mental depression.
1998
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9620891

Depression, Anxiety and Carb Malabsorption
http://www.paratuberculosis.net/90miscellaneous/depression_anxiety_and_carb_malabsorption/
Studies linking carbohydrate malabsorption to anxiety and depression

Panic Attacks and Anxiety
by Ronald Hoffman, M.D.
May 1999 | The Holistic M.D.
http://www.consciouschoice.com/1999/cc1205/hmd1205.html
"Anxiety disorder is a modern phenomenon, and it may be related to the tremendous jarring stress of modern life and perhaps to some of our common but powerful dietary stresses, such as excess sugar and excess caffeine, which are often combined, as in cola beverages."

Opioid-dependent anticipatory negative contrast and binge-like eating in rats with limited access to highly preferred food.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17443124?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed
Rats fed a sucrose-rich chow "showed increased anxiety-like behavior in relation to their propensity to binge...."

Motivation for sucrose in sated rats is predicted by low anxiety-like behavior.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19429082?ordinalpos=4&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

In contrast to the carby and opioid-producing foods, animal fats have been shown to have beneficial, rather than negative, effects on mental health:

Fish Oils and Mental Health/Depression
http://www.oilofpisces.com/depression.html
Studies have found benefit from fish oils in treating:
Alzheimer's Disease and Dementia
Depression/Anger
Post-partum Depression
Schizophrenia
Bipolar Disorder (Manic-depressive Illness)

Lesperance F et al. The efficacy of eicosapentaenoic acid for major depression: Results of the OMEGA-3D trial. 9th World Congress of Biological Psychiatry: Abstract FC-25-005. Presented July 1, 2009. Accessed at http://www.wfsbp-congress.org/fileadmin/user_upload/WFSBP_Final_Programme_090625.pdf

Inverse association of high-fat diet preference and anxiety-like behavior: a putative role for urocortin 2.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19077174?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=4&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,016
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: For First Time, Chimps Seen Making Weapons for Hunting!
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2009, 05:01:06 am »
Tyler, I don't appreciate those comments, especially given that today you yourself proposed links between "mental issues" and consumption of cooked foods at http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/a-day-in-the-life-of-tylerdurden/msg16654/#msg16654:

In my defence, I did actually refer to scientific studies I'd mentioned either in that post or just  before that. And I certainly didn't mean to suggest that ALL cooked-food eaters had schizophrenia or whatever, merely a small proportion of them.  As regards the generalisations re carb-consumers since the forum started, I referred to them as I've previously come across many similiar claims from Primal Dieters/Raw Vegans or what have you, making claims that their diet makes them more intelligent, more moral etc. by comparison to other diets. And I have come across too many exceptions that certainly don't prove the rule, such as very placid  vegetarians or very immoral vegans  etc. You have every right to make a statement of what you believe re personal accounts, I'm just pointing out my concern.

Quote
I would be interested in any references you can provide on cooking and opioids, as I agree with you about the harmful nature of cooking (just not to the same degree as you) and would like them for my files. The evidence is even stronger for links between mental issues and certain carby foods like cereal grains, milk, and foods high in fructose, whether raw or cooked/pasteurized (though not many people eat raw grains, obviously).

Actually, there's plenty of scientific evidence of cooking linked to opioids. It's not much different in amount by comparison to studies done on milk/grains it's just that it's largely ignored. Here's a couple of links with scientific  references at the bottom:-

http://www.youngerthanyourage.com/13/cooking.htm

http://www.youngerthanyourage.com/13/artific.htm

The 2nd link provides proof that cooking creates trans-fats, albeit at a low level(re heating non-hydrogenated oils to produce trans-fats).This should give pause for thought re claims that cooking is healthy.

Another point raised by others is that most studies done on fructose are totally flawed as they study REFINED fructose, which is, of course, useless,(similiarly, studies done just on refined sucrose are as erroneous as some  studies damning all meats but only focusing on cooked highly  processed meats) - in other words, fructose-containing raw foods  are fine. Lastly, I do find that many ZCers lump all carbs together. Yet, while there's plenty of evidence against some carbs like grains, the evidence against fruit, for example, is very weak indeed. After all, fruit was eaten for ages in the Palaeolithic, unlike grains or dairy.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: For First Time, Chimps Seen Making Weapons for Hunting!
« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2009, 10:05:14 am »
As regards the generalisations re carb-consumers since the forum started, I referred to them as I've previously come across many similiar claims from Primal Dieters/Raw Vegans or what have you, making claims that their diet makes them more intelligent, more moral etc. by comparison to other diets.
I think I see what you're trying to avoid--the turning of this forum into a negative complain-moan-and-insult session about eaters of cooked or high-carb foods. I've seen that tendency in a couple of veggie boards I perused (I like to challenge my assumptions and get the broadest possible perspectives) and it was definitely a turnoff for me (of course, I was among the crowd they were making fun of, so maybe that's why). I'll try to keep your goal in mind.

Yes, morality is a touchy area and claims of improved morals is a slippery slope. I suppose that doesn't make inquiry off limits (nothing is off limits to true science), but my own inclination would be to not tread that ground much.

My brain fog disappeared and I noticed my performance rapidly improved some on a computer chess game when I eliminated gluten, but I don't know whether that means I would score higher on an IQ test or some such measure and don't really care about that anyway.

Quote
And I have come across too many exceptions that certainly don't prove the rule, such as very placid  vegetarians or very immoral vegans  etc. You have every right to make a statement of what you believe re personal accounts, I'm just pointing out my concern.
Yes, I actually studied Mahatma Gandhi. I only meant I noticed a correlation, not an absolute. Being a fan of science and learning, I'm not generally fond of absolutes.

Thanks for the links. That Wai site seems even more eccentric than the BibleLife site, but it also has some interesting info.

Quote
Another point raised by others is that most studies done on fructose are totally flawed as they study REFINED fructose, which is, of course, useless.
You could make that same sort of excuse re: the nonhydrogenated fat study--it used cottonseed oil, so I could say I don't use plant oils and only heat grassfed suet at low temps, writing the study off as useless in the same manner.

More importantly, the studies are not limited to refined fructose. Fruit juice and fructose rich fruits (apples and oranges) and honey and dried fruits like raisins and cranberries have also been linked to heart disease risk, increased uric acid and gout risk.

Soft drinks, fructose consumption, and the risk of gout in men: prospective cohort study
Hyon K Choi, associate professor of medicine1, Gary Curhan, associate professor of medicine2
BMJ, doi: 10.1136/bmj.39449.819271.BE, (Published 31 January 2008)
 http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/short/bmj.39449.819271.BEv1

".... Other major contributors to fructose intake such as total fruit juice or fructose rich fruits (apples and oranges) were also associated with a higher risk of gout (P values for trend <0.05).

Conclusions: Prospective data suggest that consumption of sugar sweetened soft drinks and fructose is strongly associated with an increased risk of gout in men. Furthermore, fructose rich fruits and fruit juices may also increase the risk. Diet soft drinks were not associated with the risk of gout."


Despite the data of their own study, notice how the authors offered homage to the dietary dogma by still claiming that people should eat modern apples and oranges anyway--this is where science ends and unquestioning superstition begins: "Foods such as apples and oranges, the authors stress, contain higher fructose levels but also help prevent chronic disorders such as high blood pressure, coronary heart disease, stroke and certain types of cancer, thus their findings should be balanced against these benefits." Soda Increases Risk of Gout, http://www.arthritistoday.org/conditions/other-conditions/gout/soda-and-gout.php


Fructose is a coronary risk factor
Tuesday, August 04, 2009
http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2009/08/fructose-is-coronary-risk-factor.html

As discussed in a previous Heart Scan Blog post, Say Goodbye to Fructose, a carefully-conducted University of California study demonstrated that, compared to glucose, fructose induces:

1) Four-fold greater intra-abdominal fat accumulation

2) 13.9% increase in LDL cholesterol, doubled Apoprotein B

3) 44.9% increase in small LDL, 3-fold more than glucose

4) Increased postprandial triglycerides 99.2%.

Other studies have shown that fructose:

--Increases uric acid--No longer is red meat the cause for increased uric acid; fructose has taken its place. Uric acid may act as an independent coronary risk factor and increases high blood pressure and kidney disease.

--Induces insulin resistance, the situation that creates diabetes

--Increases glycation (fructose linked to proteins) and protein cross-linking, processes that underlie atherosclerosis, liver disease, and cataracts.

Make no mistake: Fructose is a powerful coronary risk factor.

There is no doubt whatsoever that a diet rich in fructose from fruit drinks, honey, raisins and other dried fruit like cranberries, sucrose (table sugar), and high-fructose corn syrup is a high-risk path to heart disease.

Also note that many foods labeled "heart healthy" because of low-fat, low saturated fat, addition of sterol esters, or fiber, also contain fructose sources, especially high-fructose corn syrup.


Calorie Restricted Monkeys Part II
Tuesday, July 14, 2009 at 4:10PM
http://www.paleonu.com/

"...why don’t the monkeys get CAD, despite our successful efforts to give them the metabolic syndrome that correlates so closely with CAD risk in humans?

My shoot-from-the-hip speculation is that Homo Sapiens, during two million years of evolution since H.Habilis, lost what little tolerance for excess fructose we started with at the same time we acquired our metabolic preference for exploiting the fat stores of other mammals and became more tolerant of saturated fat than fructose.

Sugar is just more poisonous to humans, and that is why you have to try so hard to give CAD to monkeys, even if you are stimulating inflammation with gobs of linoleic acid. CAD may depend on not tolerating fructose. That would explain a lot and we should keep that in mind when reading animal studies.

So among the Neolithic agents, excess industrial oils are probably bad for most mammals, but sugar may be peculiarly bad for humans. Step one of PaNu stays step one."


[/quote] Lastly, I do find that many ZCers lump all carbs together. Yet, while there's plenty of evidence against some carbs like grains, the evidence against fruit, for example, is very weak indeed. After all, fruit was eaten for ages in the Palaeolithic, unlike grains or dairy.
[/quote]
Not me. While I find that all carbs appear to do me some harm, some have far more severe effects on me than others. Wheat seems to be my worst, then I would probably say other grains, milk lactose, and sweeteners. The ill effects of nightshades, squashes, fruits and nuts were more subtle. Except for sugars, one could argue that other elements in each of these foods was the real problem for me, but for whatever reason, only animal body carb foods don't seem to have ill effects on me.

While fruits were eaten in the Paleolithic, I am not aware of any evidence that they were a staple anywhere close to the degree that animal flesh was for the period around 500k ybp to 40k ybp, during which our last two species changes (to homo sapiens and homo sapiens sapiens) occurred. This period is known as the "Carnivore Guild" for a reason, and it doesn't involve lots of sweet fruits.

The evidence against fruit is preliminary, but not "weak" and there is not much Paleolithic evidence showing precedent for heavy consumption of sugary fruits like modern apples, oranges, bananas and dried fruits. Todays staple fruits bear little resemblance to Paleo fruits and their year-round availability is likely mostly a neolithic innovation. I understand that this news that the fruits most people eat today are not healthy after all, despite the dogma they have been fed by the diet dictocrats. I was misled by that dogma myself. The more I investigate it, the less substance I find underlying it.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,016
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: For First Time, Chimps Seen Making Weapons for Hunting!
« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2009, 05:52:29 pm »
Thanks for the links. That Wai site seems even more eccentric than the BibleLife site, but it also has some interesting info.

On the contrary, the bibleife.org site is far more "eccentric" given its biblical emphasis(trying desperately to argue that low carb diets were exclusively  eaten in the Bible) and then there's the anti-gay stuff, such as claiming absurdly that gays are all vegetarians and that's why they're gay! By contrast, the wai diet is only a little eccentric in its unusual focus on curing acne.

[qYou could make that same sort of excuse re: the nonhydrogenated fat study--it used cottonseed oil, so I could say I don't use plant oils and only heat grassfed suet at low temps, writing the study off as useless in the same manner. [/quote]

Not at all useless. It establishes that cooking is a harmful process. And claiming that "only" lightly cooking suet would be OK is meaningless. Once one has to accept(as all have to do eventually) that cooking harms food in numerous ways, it becomes increasingly  impossible to argue convincingly that cooking is a beneficial process.At best, one is forced on the defensive, to make a vague unsupoorted claim that cooking "doesn't really do that much harm".

Quote
More importantly, the studies are not limited to refined fructose. Fruit juice and fructose rich fruits (apples and oranges) and honey and dried fruits like raisins and cranberries have also been linked to heart disease risk, increased uric acid and gout risk.

Fruit juice is a heavily processed food, involving added artificial vitamin C, heated/pasteurised to abnormally high temperatures to kill off potential bacteria and soft drinks are hardlt healthy carbs. Similiarly, dried fruits contain artificial levels of sulphur and other preservatives, hardly healthy or natural. Cranberries have been shown to be beneficial in fighting bacterial infections in the urinary system and have been shown to protect against cancer and kidney stones:-

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17360173 (cranberries used in the study)


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14616463

http://www.umaine.edu/umext/cranberries/Health%20Benefits%20-%20Keep%20Doctor%20&%20Dentist%20Away.htm


 As for gout, that is routinely linked by scientists to consumption of (cooked) meats with fruit actually helping reduce gout symptoms(gout is linked to purines present in protein-foods especially organ-meats):-

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15014182

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-some-foods-that-cause-gout.htm

Plus, of course, the scientific concensus, nowadays, is that fruit and veg consumption PROTECTS against heart-disease:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1196255.stm

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12081821

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11412050

and so on....



Quote
Despite the data of their own study, notice how the authors offered homage to the dietary dogma by still claiming that people should eat modern apples and oranges anyway--this is where science ends and unquestioning superstition begins: "Foods such as apples and oranges, the authors stress, contain higher fructose levels but also help prevent chronic disorders such as high blood pressure, coronary heart disease, stroke and certain types of cancer, thus their findings should be balanced against these benefits." Soda Increases Risk of Gout, http://www.arthritistoday.org/conditions/other-conditions/gout/soda-and-gout.php

It is far more likely that the scientists simply recognised that their data conflicted somewhat with the findings of 1000s of other studies proving helath benefits for fruits, so that they made a qualifying statement so as not to look too foolish, in case their evidence was later on proved wrong. Like I said before, science is always on the side of the big battalions, so that if 1 scientific study claims 1 conclusion while 100s or 1000s of others claim something enitrely different or the exact opposite, then , probability-wise, it is far more likely that the 1 study is dead wrong than that absolutely all the others are wrong. Similiarly, there are now so many definitive studies done on the great harm of heat-created toxins on human health that it is now scientifically implausible to argue that well-cooked foods(especially well-cooked animal foods) are remotely healthy for humans - which means, of course, that rawists have already won half the battle already, on a scientific basis.

Quote
--Increases glycation (fructose linked to proteins) and protein cross-linking, processes that underlie atherosclerosis, liver disease, and cataracts.

The above statement is very misleading. AGEs/advanced glycation end products(which are behind atherosclerosis/cataracts etc.) are not just formed in the presence of carbs but of fats as well(cooked animal fats in particular, as AGE-levels are much, much higher in coooked animal fats than any other food).

Quote
Also note that many foods labeled "heart healthy" because of low-fat, low saturated fat, addition of sterol esters, or fiber, also contain fructose sources, especially high-fructose corn syrup.

This is precisely my point. Corn syrup is avoided by healthy-minded vegetarians  and is not considered by anyone to be a healthy carb.



 
Quote
While fruits were eaten in the Paleolithic, I am not aware of any evidence that they were a staple anywhere close to the degree that animal flesh was for the period around 500k ybp to 40k ybp, during which our last two species changes (to homo sapiens and homo sapiens sapiens) occurred. This period is known as the "Carnivore Guild" for a reason, and it doesn't involve lots of sweet fruits.

I'm not claiming that palaeo diets in Arctic areas were high in fruit, but as one goes further towards the equator, the proportion of plant foods in the diet becomes ever larger, strongly indicating that palaeo tribes were no different(2nd link that is, 1st link shows actual plant consumption in the middle palaeolithic):-

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WH8-4F83PG9-3&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1003043096&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=ca797ef849cfaf4fb531260cf7af98c7


http://www.springerlink.com/content/u386383180288602/

(20-25% of diet, by calorie) judging from the text.

Re brain-size/meat  conundrum:- "Here's a pertinent quote from an article re this issue which shows that dietary explanations re increased hominid brain-size are questionable at best:-

Quote
"The above arguments, that the morphological changes in hominid crania can be explained by the increased consumption of animal foods through time, is strongly contested by researchers such as Nestle (1999) and Milton (1993, 2000). They argue, by analogy, that the majority of living primates are largely vegetarian, and that we, as primates, are best adapted to a mainly vegetarian diet. Milton (1993) writes that mandible size decreased due to the increased consumption of energy-rich plant foods such as fruits, and not necessarily meat. The complex skills required to harvest these energy-rich plants would also result in a selection for more intelligent hominids, with resulting increased brain size through time. This alternative hypothesis highlights the inadequacy of the use of analogy with living primates as a means to understand hominid subsistence, as the same lines of evidence can be used to support two opposing views. Clearly, additional lines of evidence are needed to resolve these two alternative explanations."


Quote
Todays staple fruits bear little resemblance to Paleo fruits and their year-round availability is likely mostly a neolithic innovation.

You can claim that modern fruits are higher in sugar etc. than palaeo-equivalents. But it actually defeats your point as if such fruits were lower in sugars, palaeo tribesmen would have been able to eat much larger amounts of wild fruit and still avoid issues. As for fruit being available all year round, that depends on location and was not restricted to the Neolithic era. As GS has pointed out from his own experience, wild fruits are available all year round in quantity as a staple in the tropics, so the same must have applied in Palaeo times(in those equatorial regions).
« Last Edit: September 07, 2009, 06:54:44 pm by TylerDurden »
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk