Author Topic: Raw lake fish?  (Read 10798 times)

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Offline Kokki

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Raw lake fish?
« on: September 24, 2009, 08:49:28 pm »
I have eaten raw pike for a while, and haven`t experienced vomiting or nausea (it comes from clean lake).

How about tapeworms? I don`t believe that they could stay alive in healthy/clean intestines.

I`m not anemic yet..  ;)

Offline Josh

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Re: Raw lake fish?
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2009, 03:40:28 am »
What does it taste like?

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Raw lake fish?
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2009, 03:52:52 am »
I have eaten raw pike for a while, and haven`t experienced vomiting or nausea (it comes from clean lake).

How about tapeworms? I don`t believe that they could stay alive in healthy/clean intestines.

I`m not anemic yet..  ;)

Never had an issue re tapeworms/parasites in raw wild fish and I've eaten vast amounts of raw seafood over the last 8 years.
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Raw lake fish?
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2009, 08:06:37 am »
Freshwater fish are very questionable to be eating raw.  They really are full of parasites, in many cases.  I'm not sure I would do it.  I eat lots of raw saltwater fish raw, though, with no problems, except for the nausea from wild salmon.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Raw lake fish?
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2009, 09:00:15 am »
I've seen parasites on freshwater fish I've caught in the local lake. Aajonus says parasites are healthy, but I'm too thin as it is and don't want a parasite making me thinner, so I cook the fish I catch.

Bear Grylls says that some freshwater fish are "OK to eat" raw, but he doesn't explain why. Does anyone know why some are supposed to be "OK" and others aren't?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
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Re: Raw lake fish?
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2009, 10:11:20 pm »
Dried freshwater fish used to be a winter staple.
Does anyone know if drying kills parasites?

Offline SkinnyDevil

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Re: Raw lake fish?
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2009, 12:31:33 am »
C-Kid, why do you get nausea from wild salmon?

What is the rationale behind believing that salt-water & fresh-water creatures have or don't have parasites and such?
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Raw lake fish?
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2009, 08:30:55 am »
A lot of people get nausea from raw wild salmon.  There's some natural chemical in it that causes it, I don't remember what, I think somebody mentioned it on the raw paleo yahoo group. 

Parasites are far more common in freshwater fish.  It's not a belief, it's quite factual.  I learned it from the US Army Ranger's field survival guide (or was the Airborne division survival guide?  I don't know).  It mentions that saltwater fish are usually safe to eat raw, except for the poisonous ones in the tropics.  It also mentions that freshwater fish should usually be cooked.  It's corroborated in many places, by many sources. I cna do some Google searching, if you're really needing to know.

Offline van

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Re: Raw lake fish?
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2009, 08:58:34 am »
raw wild pacific northwest salmon is full of parasites, often.  There are two kinds.  The little ones that attach to the stomach.  No treatment for them except wait till they die or pull them off the stomach wall with special instruments.  The other, more rare but there, is a tapeworm that can grow to over twenty feet long and live a very long life inside of you.  I have spoken at length with a parasitologist who use to treat patients in Wash. state frequently.  For me, it's frozen or none at all.   I dislike frozen so much that I thought I would try food processing the little guys to death, but that got old after a while.  Plus I like meat so much more.  I have gone after to buy salmon eggs though.  Full of DHA and alot of other nutrients found in fish/oils.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Raw lake fish?
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2009, 05:57:57 pm »
I find all these exaggerated scare stories re raw wild salmon/raw oysters etc. amusing as I've had both  (raw oysters more often) and have never had a problem with them even once . It's just silly to perpetuate parasite myths when the vast majority of RVAFers don't have problems with such raw animal foods.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Raw lake fish?
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2009, 10:57:45 pm »
So you think it's safe to eat the parasites I saw on the fish I caught, Tyler? Wouldn't they make me thinner? After all, people used to intentionally eat tapeworms to lose weight.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Raw lake fish?
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2009, 11:10:33 pm »
So you think it's safe to eat the parasites I saw on the fish I caught, Tyler? Wouldn't they make me thinner? After all, people used to intentionally eat tapeworms to lose weight.

If I found parasites in my food such as the wild game meat I often buy(I never have found any such parasites) I would at least test Aajonus' theories by trying it.

Parasites, incidentally, are often not only harmless but often don't affect more than 1 species - so, for example, a scientist once did an experiment with pig-worms(parasites endemic to pigs) in order to show how humans with IBS symptoms benefitted from having such worms in their digestive systems - naturally, the pig-worms couldn't survive in the human body for more than 3 weeks so were killed off.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2009, 12:50:15 am by TylerDurden »
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Raw lake fish?
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2009, 12:47:34 am »
I found the study. It's interesting and I'm not particularly concerned about parasites, but I don't think I would ingest one without knowing what it is, since don't some parasites multiply or survive (ex: all those stories about 20 ft tapeworms found in people--are they just urban legends?) within the human body and aren't some transimissable?

"In his study, 29 patients with active Crohn's disease ingested the pig whip worm, Trichuris suis. This parasite cannot multiply in the human intestine and is not transmissible from human to human.
http://www.helpforibs.com/messageboards/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?"Cat=&Board=library&Number=96565&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&vc=1

Also, I did eat a bit of the freshwater fish I caught raw and got scolded by a couple people for it. It would be good to have counter arguments to use.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Raw lake fish?
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2009, 12:52:52 am »
I found the study. It's interesting and I'm not particularly concerned about parasites, but I don't think I would ingest one without knowing what it is, since don't some parasites multiply or survive (ex: all those stories about 20 ft tapeworms found in people--are they just urban legends?) within the human body and aren't some transimissable?

http://www.helpforibs.com/messageboards/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=library&Number=96565&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&vc=1

Also, I did eat a bit of the freshwater fish I caught raw and got scolded by a couple people for it. It would be good to have counter arguments to use.

I don't see how they could be transmitted to others given current hygiene standards. My own view is that I probably do have some parasites in me(due to frequent consumption of wild animals) but that they are not affecting me adversely(in line with Aajonus' claims that parasites are generally harmless.
*I remember 1 RVAFer once mentioning in passing that he once saw a perfectly healthy deer get killed and it turned out to be stuffed to the brim with parasites.
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Re: Raw lake fish?
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2009, 03:25:07 am »
Thanks, and that's nice and all, but I've found that just telling people not to worry about parasites and the concern about them is overblown is not nearly enough to get them off my back. I need some meatier arguments.

Would you say that the parasites have not caused any weight loss in you at all? I need to add weight, so any weight loss at all would be a negative side effect of parasites for me (whereas it might be seen as good by someone who wishes to lose weight).
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Raw lake fish?
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2009, 05:20:14 am »
Thanks, and that's nice and all, but I've found that just telling people not to worry about parasites and the concern about them is overblown is not nearly enough to get them off my back. I need some meatier arguments.

Would you say that the parasites have not caused any weight loss in you at all? I need to add weight, so any weight loss at all would be a negative side effect of parasites for me (whereas it might be seen as good by someone who wishes to lose weight).

I only experienced weight-loss as a result of cutting out dairy and cooked animal foods. I actually have a tendency to put on weight, even on a RVAF diet, though it's far less(c.20kg+ less) than the extreme obesity I had on a cooked diet.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline van

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Re: Raw lake fish?
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2009, 09:00:14 am »
call it silly, but you eat atlantic salmon.  Different story over there.  Maybe if you inquired a little deeper about pacific northwest salmon you'd hear the same stories.  I have also looked close at the fresh salmon after my discussions.  And yes, there was the little translucent worm wiggling in my salmon.  It was the kind that attaches to the stomach.  Long term affliction with these guys is said to lead to scarring and possible other stomach problems, like ulcers etc.  My dogs pick up pararsites, tape worm routinely, they have been raw since birth, so even the ultra strong hcl that their stomachs produce that can dissolve bone isn't effective at 'killing' tapeworms or their eggs. 

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Re: Raw lake fish?
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2009, 10:31:58 am »
I only experienced weight-loss as a result of cutting out dairy and cooked animal foods. I actually have a tendency to put on weight, even on a RVAF diet, though it's far less(c.20kg+ less) than the extreme obesity I had on a cooked diet.
It's very difficult for me to keep up my weight on raw Paleo foods, although it's gradually getting less difficult. Are you saying that if I eat parasites my weight will go up? My concern is that they might eat some of my food and cause me to lose weight. Again, people historically ate parasites to lose weight.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline reyyzl

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Re: Raw lake fish?
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2009, 04:09:09 pm »
I've seen parasites on freshwater fish I've caught in the local lake. Aajonus says parasites are healthy, but I'm too thin as it is and don't want a parasite making me thinner, so I cook the fish I catch.

Bear Grylls says that some freshwater fish are "OK to eat" raw, but he doesn't explain why. Does anyone know why some are supposed to be "OK" and others aren't?

    Aajonus says that clients who ate raw fresh water fish didn't always do well health wise from eating it.  Because of that, he recommends ocean or salt water fish, when recommending fish, as they always fared well with it.
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Offline SkinnyDevil

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Re: Raw lake fish?
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2009, 08:33:27 pm »
A lot of people get nausea from raw wild salmon.  There's some natural chemical in it that causes it, I don't remember what, I think somebody mentioned it on the raw paleo yahoo group. 

Parasites are far more common in freshwater fish.  It's not a belief, it's quite factual.  I learned it from the US Army Ranger's field survival guide (or was the Airborne division survival guide?  I don't know).  It mentions that saltwater fish are usually safe to eat raw, except for the poisonous ones in the tropics.  It also mentions that freshwater fish should usually be cooked.  It's corroborated in many places, by many sources. I cna do some Google searching, if you're really needing to know.

Thanx for the info!

I was wondering because I eat VERY rare catfish (freshwater) as well as other fish. I have gotten nausea eating salmon in large quantities, and usually prefer tuna, oysters, etc.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Raw lake fish?
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2009, 09:13:35 pm »
It's very difficult for me to keep up my weight on raw Paleo foods, although it's gradually getting less difficult. Are you saying that if I eat parasites my weight will go up? My concern is that they might eat some of my food and cause me to lose weight. Again, people historically ate parasites to lose weight.

I'm saying that any parasites present may not even affect your weight at all.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Raw lake fish?
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2009, 09:14:26 pm »
    Aajonus says that clients who ate raw fresh water fish didn't always do well health wise from eating it.  Because of that, he recommends ocean or salt water fish, when recommending fish, as they always fared well with it.

Aajonus' reason for stating the above has nothing to do with parasites, he simply points out that freshwater fish are more likely to be subject to pollution so should be avoided.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Raw lake fish?
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2009, 11:16:21 pm »
When I thought more about it, I realized that even one of those really long tapeworms taken from people's GI tracts that get all the photos are not large enough to eat a lot of one's food and the weight loss effects must have been attributed to something else. Sure enough, this article claims that tapeworms might induce weight loss through diarrhea and appetite suppression, and might have other side effects like B12 depletion that my critics might point to:

Quote
http://health.howstuffworks.com/tapeworm-weight-loss2.htm

Some tapeworm hosts do suffer from intestinal discomfort or diarrhea. And some also experience reduced appetite, which could lead to weight loss. However, we can assure you that simply reading about tapeworms can cause a similar loss of appetite, so more drastic measures might not be necessary. But even if a tapeworm did trim some pounds, it still wouldn't be a good way to lose weight.

For most people, the goal of losing weight is to look better. However, as a tapeworm steals certain vitamins from your body, notably vitamin B12, you'll suffer ill health due to a shortage of those nutrients. Sure, you might slim down, but no one is going to be impressed with your sickly appearance. If that weren't enough, there's always ascites. Ascites is a condition in which the body's immune response to a parasitic infection leads to a build-up of fluid in the abdominal cavity. This manifests itself physically as a swollen, distended belly. Not exactly the intended result of a tapeworm diet plan.

And don't forget about good old cysticercosis, with the brain damage, blindness and possible death.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

 

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