Author Topic: Unavailable Grass-fed Meat  (Read 35054 times)

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Offline livingthelife

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Re: Unavailable Grass-fed Meat
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2009, 10:27:51 pm »
how we should go about reducing population to sustainable levels.

Those who are able to do so could stop having children.

I'd also like to know yon yonson's ideas? I've set myself up on this topic several times now and have escaped assassination so far  :)
« Last Edit: November 20, 2009, 10:40:39 pm by livingthelife »

Offline yon yonson

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Re: Unavailable Grass-fed Meat
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2009, 12:26:19 am »
ok. the only way to drastically reduce population, in my opinion, is to dismantle the infrastructure of civilization. without oil supply, electricity, internet, industrial food supply, water supply, etc, people will die. i know that sounds harsh to some people, but i don't think it's effective to just say 'oh, well we'll just stop having as many kids.' that method would take far too long and be much more difficult to implement. i see civilization as inherently unsustainable, so it will end inevitably. the longer we take to end it, the more people will die. so like i said, people will die. i might die, you might die, i don't know, but lots of people will die. but an appropriate number of people will survive based on how many people their landbase can naturally support without the aid of civilization. then earth can return to a more balanced state. anyways, those are my beliefs in a nut shell.

Offline whitebox84

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Re: Unavailable Grass-fed Meat
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2009, 12:36:14 am »
None of you potential megalomaniacs will need to worry about taking up the torch on how to solve the issue. Chris Martenson's videos paints a fairly clear picture on how the next 20 years will likely unfold.
http://www.chrismartenson.com/crashcourse/

Gaia Theory et al, it's pretty much common sense at this point.

Offline livingthelife

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Re: Unavailable Grass-fed Meat
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2009, 01:40:56 am »
I don't think yon yonson is "harsh." What's happening now is harsh. What's happening now is torture and murder. 

I also agree that there will be horrific troubles to come regardless, simply because the system is too unbalanced. (I'll be interested to watch that video in the coming days, thanks for posting it.)

However, if we do survive and hope to continue to live here - ever - we must learn to do so with greater restraint.

Voluntarily curtailing reproduction cuts the "carbon footprint" of each individual immediately and exponentially and without killing or causing suffering.

People who always want more of something are addicted to it. We are addicted to the flourishing aspect of life.

Perhaps my point of view is the "hospice theory of humanity" - how to die off more gracefully  :)  However, it would be interesting to do some calculations on just what would happen if those who had the means to satisfy themselves did so and thus relinquished their need for children, then stepped out of the way to allow flow in the socioeconomic system. Perhaps a new system would emerge in keeping with the Georgia Guidestones.


Offline yon yonson

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Re: Unavailable Grass-fed Meat
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2009, 03:08:15 am »
None of you potential megalomaniacs will need to worry about taking up the torch on how to solve the issue. Chris Martenson's videos paints a fairly clear picture on how the next 20 years will likely unfold.
http://www.chrismartenson.com/crashcourse/

Gaia Theory et al, it's pretty much common sense at this point.

haha, a 'potential megalomaniac'. well if that's what you label me then fine. i watched the first couple of those videos and enjoyed his explanation of exponential growth. but then he started talking about putting surpluses into prosperity instead of growth and i got a little lost. prosperity (as he defined it) is growth. it's the growth of materials and services and scientific knowledge. these are not things i consider sustainable.

as for the gaia theory, i get it. i believe it to be true, but how does that rule out the need for humanity to overthrow civilization and it's inherent unsustainability? wouldn't we just be acting as agents of the theory?
« Last Edit: November 21, 2009, 03:14:52 am by yon yonson »

Offline livingthelife

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Re: Unavailable Grass-fed Meat
« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2009, 03:30:42 am »
My problem with the Gaia theory is that it doesn't take into account the phenomenon of individual human consciousness (and I did read the book). The "expanded ego" that is touted as ethics is lofty nonsense IMO.

Overthrowing civilization is a conscious choice that goes against natural survival instincts. That could be acting "in the service of Gaia" but not as a part of Gaia. Here's that split again,  ;) - are we or are not part of Gaia?

I think we're both, but not yet able to reconcile that.

Offline livingthelife

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Re: Unavailable Grass-fed Meat
« Reply #31 on: November 21, 2009, 04:09:17 am »
To clarify: abstract thought is not part of Gaia.

We are so comfortable with abstraction we don't even notice it. Sometimes we act almost entirely within abstraction - this forum is one example.

So getting rid of "civilization" would be getting rid of abstraction (it all started with Plato at the "dawn of Western civilization," incidentally)

By abstraction I do not mean ideas, representations, etc about "real" things. Pantheistic/primitive people were not *primarily* abstract thinkers. Their gods are representations of real things.

I think there needs to be an integration between the abstract capacity of the mind and the reality of the physical.

Though ending civilization seems appealing, I don't know how that could actually be accomplished without common scenarios of an exclusively abstract agent - an antichrist, or impersonal agent like "the Nazis," for example - and that doesn't seem likely to create psychologically healthy survivors.

Much food for thought in this thread
« Last Edit: November 21, 2009, 04:22:49 am by livingthelife »

Offline whitebox84

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Re: Unavailable Grass-fed Meat
« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2009, 11:50:03 am »
Well, yon yonson, it wouldn't do us very good to discuss a book only one of us has fully read and the other is only a couple centimeters steeped in, would it? I've watched the entire series twice and I still need to go for another few rounds to digest it properly. It sounds like you need to watch the growth versus prosperity one again.  l)

When you find yourself at the extreme end of an exponential cycle in almost every type of economic, energy and environmental model which sustains us and our way of life, you can see that we're headed for a cliff. Human life will go on, certainly to some extent or another. However, when we do fall off it, discretionary energy will no longer exist or be available for societal complications like luxuries or much non-survival hobbies which are trivial in the face of the work you need to get done each day to contribute to your community. The communities which exist will fall in line with primitive systems a la ecosystem villages around the world.

Offline yon yonson

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Re: Unavailable Grass-fed Meat
« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2009, 02:03:39 pm »
you're right. i definitely need to watch the rest of those but havent had time

When you find yourself at the extreme end of an exponential cycle in almost every type of economic, energy and environmental model which sustains us and our way of life, you can see that we're headed for a cliff. Human life will go on, certainly to some extent or another. However, when we do fall off it, discretionary energy will no longer exist or be available for societal complications like luxuries or much non-survival hobbies which are trivial in the face of the work you need to get done each day to contribute to your community. The communities which exist will fall in line with primitive systems a la ecosystem villages around the world.

i hope you're right. im just not as optimistic. how do you know that we won't pollute the earth beyond repair before this exponential cycle ends? i'd like to be more sure about it all and just end the global civilization now. then there's no having to hope that this exponential cycle will save us all. to each his own though

Offline whitebox84

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Re: Unavailable Grass-fed Meat
« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2009, 02:18:42 pm »
You can approach the situation as a realist, optimist, pessimist, nihilist, solipsist or whichever you like. It's best to simply be informed first of all and resist the urge to jump into simplistic and naïve conclusions.

Offline majormark

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Re: Unavailable Grass-fed Meat
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2009, 04:59:35 pm »

Interesting stuff here, but this discussion has deviated so much that maybe it would deserve a dedicated topic. The last posts should be moved.

About the exponential growth I believe that we are capable to come up with ways to replace oil in the future and it does not need to be about the word end.

And about population growth, we could also make other planets inhabitable if we get smart enough... or implement some mass birth control system otherwise.


Offline livingthelife

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Re: Unavailable Grass-fed Meat
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2009, 10:43:06 pm »
this discussion has deviated so much
 


mass birth control system

How about "self-control?"

Why is this such an unpopular concept?! No one would have to impose restrictions on anyone else and everyone would benefit: mature adults would have resources and motivation to improve their "families" (communities). Of course children would still be born, but not as many (eventually) and they would come into a world where vast numbers of role models demonstrate the beauty of the "wealth" available to a person who has enough energy and focus to wholly satisfy themselves.

whitebox84, when you've finished Lovelock's book I'd be interested to hear your perspective on it. I hope to view the video you posted over the weekend and I'll follow up. I love macro-economics.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Unavailable Grass-fed Meat
« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2009, 02:33:32 am »
Re: the topic, Amir, are there any pasture-raised chicken, duck or other eggs where you live? If so, you could also eat raw eggs or egg yolks and that might be more palatable psychologically for you early on, if raw meat is difficult for you.

P.S. I read some of your posts at your other forum, and I find them refreshingly open, honest, rational and inquisitive, compared to what I usually find in vegan/vegetarian forums, and free of dogma.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline whitebox84

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Re: Unavailable Grass-fed Meat
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2009, 02:41:05 am »
Thank you for the kind words, PaleoPhil. I'm focusing on the Tom Billings beyondveg.com site to accompany the varied raw vegan/vegan sources that are amply available. I'll hopefully also soon receive the 811 book by Dr.Doug Graham to better understand his take on things (as well as his grain damage and athletic book). I need to get a fully rounded understanding of everything and make the healthy, sensible, choice based on what makes sense.

I actually started eating raw organic eggs since last week, so it's great that we're on the same page on that.  ;)

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Unavailable Grass-fed Meat
« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2009, 06:53:01 am »
I like your approach of checking out a variety of perspectives and experimenting to find out what works for you. That's basically what I did and I think many others here did as well.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Unavailable Grass-fed Meat
« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2009, 10:38:28 am »
I'll hopefully also soon receive the 811 book by Dr.Doug Graham to better understand his take on things (as well as his grain damage and athletic book).

I can introduce you to dozens of people, online and off, who deeply regret ever having tried the high-fruit 8/1/1 diet.  Doug's methods destroyed my teeth and caused massive, debilitating panic attacks. 

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Unavailable Grass-fed Meat
« Reply #41 on: November 26, 2009, 05:40:55 pm »
I can introduce you to dozens of people, online and off, who deeply regret ever having tried the high-fruit 8/1/1 diet.  Doug's methods destroyed my teeth and caused massive, debilitating panic attacks.  

Well, AV's advice and books similiarly helped give me panic-attacks and destroyed my teeth(due to the massive amounts of raw dairy he recommends) yet he helped me understand more of how to regain my health. Same with my raw vegan/fruitarian phase - I didn't have Doug Graham as a guru, but instead  Leslie Kenton among others and she was useful, too, if not correct on innumerable  issues.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Unavailable Grass-fed Meat
« Reply #42 on: November 27, 2009, 12:18:12 pm »
Well, AV's advice and books similiarly helped give me panic-attacks and destroyed my teeth(due to the massive amounts of raw dairy he recommends) yet he helped me understand more of how to regain my health. Same with my raw vegan/fruitarian phase - I didn't have Doug Graham as a guru, but instead  Leslie Kenton among others and she was useful, too, if not correct on innumerable  issues.
That's basically the same point I've tried to make in the past regarding Groves, Taubes, Weston Price, Dr. Harris, Dr. Dean Ornish and even the "fruitarianesque" SuperInfinity. One can disagree with someone on many key points and still potentially learn something from them, even if it's only one small thing.  I have learned something from all of them even though I've disagreed with all of them on some things. It looks like I would disagree with Graham on most things, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility of learning something from him.

It's even possible to learn from someone who you find to be wrong on everything, as their example may reveal various degrees of harm from certain unwise practices.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2009, 12:31:47 pm by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Unavailable Grass-fed Meat
« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2009, 11:23:28 pm »
I have never learned anything of use from Doug Graham.  He lies needlessly and constantly. He always tells people he's been raw since 1993, but plenty of Costa Ricans have seen him eating beans and rice in Costa Rica, near Uvita, where he owns land.  I know this, because I have lived in that town for months at at time. on a couple of occasions.

Seriously, he teaches nothing that other gurus aren't already teaching.

1. avoiding grains is taught by Aajonus and plenty of other raw food gurus.
2. avoiding cooked food?  All the raw food gurus teach that.

I have nothing good to say about him. 

Actually, scratch that. Trying to follow the 8/1/1 plan destroyed my teeth and mental calm so extremely and so fast that I had to really rethink how I was eating.  Regular raw vegetarian/vegan was slowly hurting me, over years, but 8/1/1 is the fast track to destroying, if nothing else, your brain. The brain needs more fat than that, period.  The teeth will deteriorate, too, although staying away from watery fruits and sticking to bananas/persimmons/sapote/durian/etc. will slow that process down.

So following Doug's plan was so harmful that it forced me in a different direction, toward raw animal foods.

Thanks, Doug. 

Offline whitebox84

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Re: Unavailable Grass-fed Meat
« Reply #44 on: November 27, 2009, 11:53:24 pm »
cherimoya, what was your diet like on 811? How long did it take for you to start experiencing the poor and harmful effects on your health and well being? I'm glad you're feeling better now.

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Re: Unavailable Grass-fed Meat
« Reply #45 on: November 27, 2009, 11:54:55 pm »
... Doug Graham.  He lies needlessly and constantly. He always tells people he's been raw since 1993, but plenty of Costa Ricans have seen him eating beans and rice in Costa Rica, near Uvita, where he owns land.  I know this, because I have lived in that town for months at at time...
 

    I think he's about 57 years old.  Many raw vegans try to say he's 65 or 70, and that he looks so good for that.  I have to hand him, he is in fairly good athletic shape.  I have family members much older than that, that eat conventional cooked meat, and are very active and look about as good.  1993 or less?  Raw vegan worshipers of his say he's been raw since teen years.  Hmm.

... Trying to follow the 8/1/1 plan destroyed my teeth and ...  The teeth will deteriorate, too, although staying away from watery fruits and sticking to bananas/persimmons/sapote/durian/etc. will slow that process down.

So following Doug's plan was so harmful that it forced me in a different direction, toward raw animal foods.

Thanks, Doug.

    My teeth and bones suffered fruitarian.  Maybe I got a little scurvy from it, some bones bent and retained this new form.  When I did this in my twenties this didn't happen, but I did include starchy fruits.  In my thirties is when it happened, and I included no starchy fruit then.  Thank you.  It helps writing all this and reading others' input.  I didn't know all the effects of less watery fruit.
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Unavailable Grass-fed Meat
« Reply #46 on: November 28, 2009, 12:51:31 am »
cherimoya, what was your diet like on 811? How long did it take for you to start experiencing the poor and harmful effects on your health and well being? I'm glad you're feeling better now.

I ate mostly bananas and some wild greens for about 8 months or so, and the teeth problems slowly got worse over this time.  However, after that, I tried eating lots of apples, pears, and some citrus, with spinach, for about 4 months.  The tooth problems got much, much worse, and the panic attacks and anxiety were absolutely terrible.  The watery fruits are much harder on the teeth, particularly the really sweet/sour ones.


Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Unavailable Grass-fed Meat
« Reply #47 on: November 28, 2009, 01:01:03 am »
 

    I think he's about 57 years old.  Many raw vegans try to say he's 65 or 70, and that he looks so good for that.  I have to hand him, he is in fairly good athletic shape.  I have family members much older than that, that eat conventional cooked meat, and are very active and look about as good.  1993 or less?  Raw vegan worshipers of his say he's been raw since teen years.  Hmm.

Doug was born in March of 1953.  I was a member of his vegsource.com forum for quite a while, and I also corresponded with him via email for a while.  I was wanting to be the caretaker of his land in Costa Rica.  The guy wanted me to pay him to be his caretaker.  How hilarious.

Doug is one of those people who has lies and insidious half-truths constantly swirling around him, some he has told, and some that others have told.  It's a constant cloud of lies that regenerates itself constantly. LOL  Whatever. If people are really stupid enough to believe all the hype, there's nothing I can do about it, on a large scale.  It's amazing what people will believe.  Do people really say he's 65 or 70?  The archives over at the vegsource forum have posts from him saying "today's my birthday.  I'm 51" or whatever, from back in 2004 or thereabouts.  The archives also have a LOT of posts where he says he's been raw since 1993 or 1994.  Wow.  People will just believe anything, even without verification. 

I have to say, Doug is just really bald with his lies.  Most of the raw vegan gurus are lying about being 100% raw, but Doug has this whole long saga he tells, about starting to try to be all-raw in the early 80s, and failing again and again, until he finally discovers 8/1/1 high sweet fruit, and then all his desire to eat cooked just magically falls away.  It's hilarious, and totally inaccurate.  It's quite the involved little story, very detailed and well-told, and, according to the locals in Uvita, a total lie.


Offline whitebox84

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Re: Unavailable Grass-fed Meat
« Reply #48 on: November 28, 2009, 01:03:17 am »
Were you in touch with the 811 community and ask for their counsel on what's going on, what to do, etc?

The interesting thing is that there are some in that community (e.g. 30 bananas a day ning community) who seem to thrive on the long-term. I'm wondering if this is a question of the diet being 'wrong' altogether or that it only works for a certain subset of people. "Different strokes for different blokes", etc.

I was full 811 for about two months. I felt really good when I kept the greens intake high, particularly dark greens like spinach. However, with doubts creeping in I added significant amounts of raw fish (about 200-500grams per day) and some raw eggs. I've also been experimenting with adding steamed vegetables (10-25% of my daily diet right now) which may have caused me to catch the cold I'm recovering with right now.

Eating the raw fish and eggs definitely doesn't seem to have any adverse effects. In fact, my body really seems to enjoy it. However I'm keeping up a high intake of fruits and greens and I'm not sure if that's a bad thing. The issue of bloog sugar, from the 811 point of view, isn't on sugar itself (at least not natural sugar) but rather high sugar in combination with high fat. Overconsumption of fats, from their perspective, interferes with insulin efficacy and therefore strains the pancreas, adrenals and inevitably the entire system.

In any case, I'm feeling fairly well with this diet right now. I need to see about whether I'll be keeping the steamed vegetables in the diet or not, though. The jury is still out as I read up and learn more and test it on my body firsthand.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Unavailable Grass-fed Meat
« Reply #49 on: November 28, 2009, 01:27:57 am »
Were you in touch with the 811 community and ask for their counsel on what's going on, what to do, etc?

The interesting thing is that there are some in that community (e.g. 30 bananas a day ning community) who seem to thrive on the long-term. I'm wondering if this is a question of the diet being 'wrong' altogether or that it only works for a certain subset of people. "Different strokes for different blokes", etc.


Lies, lies, lies, from lying liars.  LOL  No, seriously, you can't survive for more than a few years eating that way 100%.  If you're cheating with animal foods, and higher-fat other foods, you can last a lot longer.  I most definitely was in contact with the 8/1/1 community.  I was a regular contributor to Doug's vegsource forum, which has been going strong from at least 2002, I think.

Fortunately for me, my willpower is so incredibly strong that I was able to do the 8/1/1 diet with no cheating for quite a few months, and witness what it does in all its full power and glory on my body and mind firsthand.  As well, I have a quite a few raw foodist friends who also have similar levels of dedication, and they too experienced what I did.  The watery fruits will destroy you fast, the drier ones more slowly.  In the end, you're dead. I don't give a damn what people say, I have seen it in the real world. I was hanging out at Cascada Verde, the raw foods retreat, near Doug's land in Uvita, Costa Rica, back in 2003 and 2004, and was able to really talk deeply with a lot of raw foodists who had come there to be his caretaker and/or hang out at Cascada Verde.  They all had similar stories to mine.  It doesn't work long term.


I was full 811 for about two months. I felt really good when I kept the greens intake high, particularly dark greens like spinach. However, with doubts creeping in I added significant amounts of raw fish (about 200-500grams per day) and some raw eggs. I've also been experimenting with adding steamed vegetables (10-25% of my daily diet right now) which may have caused me to catch the cold I'm recovering with right now.

You don't need the steamed veggies.  If you've got to to eat some, make it dark leafy greens, don't steam them too much, and don't eat more than a couple of ounces a day, max. But you can experiment, if you want. 

Eating the raw fish and eggs definitely doesn't seem to have any adverse effects. In fact, my body really seems to enjoy it. However I'm keeping up a high intake of fruits and greens and I'm not sure if that's a bad thing. The issue of bloog sugar, from the 811 point of view, isn't on sugar itself (at least not natural sugar) but rather high sugar in combination with high fat. Overconsumption of fats, from their perspective, interferes with insulin efficacy and therefore strains the pancreas, adrenals and inevitably the entire system.

I don't think large amounts of raw sweet fruit really cause diabetes, but I could be wrong.  That's not the point, anyway.  The diet will screw up your brain badly.  You need fats to make and transport hormones and neurotransmitters.  No fats=fat soluble vitamins cannot be transported in the body.

I had to go extremely high-fat/low-carb for over 2 years before I could eat significant amounts of fruit again without having panic attacks.  Even now, I eat a lot of bone meal and healing clays to keep the fruit from destroying my teeth, and I always either brush my teeth or swish with bone meal right after eating fruit, or any carbs, really.  Even so, I do have a little gum bleeding, although that's probably partly from the large amounts of Omega-3-rich smelt roe that I eat.

In any case, I'm feeling fairly well with this diet right now. I need to see about whether I'll be keeping the steamed vegetables in the diet or not, though. The jury is still out as I read up and learn more and test it on my body firsthand.

Feel free to test.  I have outlined the correct parameters above.  Stray from that carefully, if at all. You will either follow my path before testing, or you will follow it after, I promise.  LOL

 

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