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Offline miles

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Before Bed-time
« on: January 11, 2010, 12:40:21 am »
I'm an athlete. What is good to eat as a last meal, not long before going to bed?

If I have fruit(maybe even with some meat), it means my stomach will be uncomfortable, I'll feel weak and tired and get to sleep fast, and sleep for a long time. Next morning I will feel as though I am fully-recovered: No aching, no tiredness, not feeling like I need more sleep; but I will have some muscle pains/inflammation including in my gut.

If I have meat(~18g protein/16g fat) I will feel strong and I will lie in bed a long time before I can get to sleep, when I wake up I will feel tired, muscles aching, quite dehydrated and feel like I need more sleep(which I don't do); but I will be strong, no muscle pain or inflammation, just ache.

As I am inconsistent, since nothing's been completely comfortable yet, I don't know whether if I were to stick to the meat only before bed(I eat almost solely meat the rest of the time already as I can't afford muscle pain/inflammation during training) I would get used to it and no longer ache or feel tired upon waking, or whether I need to try something different still.

For example: Perhaps eating leaner meat before bed-time instead of fattier-meat. I have my meat(mince) very barely-cooked now, so the fat remains in the meat, but I seem to remember that when I used to microwave it that during the day I would get all the fat up with the meat, and before bed I would leave a lot of the fat out of instinct but I'm not sure. Although I seem to remember being even more dehydrated during the night/upon waking having lean meat before bed than fatty meat.

Anyway, that seems like I've written quite a bit. Responses will be valued.

Thanks.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 06:43:22 am by miles »
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Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Before Bed-time
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2010, 01:43:49 am »
Wonder why you feel you need to eat anything near bedtime?  My last meal (usually my only meal) of the day is 8 to 10 hours before bedtime.  I'm not hungry at bed time nor do I have any problem sleeping.  Even when eating 2 meals per day, the first meal is eaten in the late morning and the 2nd meal is eaten in the mid to late afternoon, usually 5 or 6 hours before going to bed.

Lex

Offline Ioanna

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Re: Before Bed-time
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2010, 02:55:48 am »
I was thinking along the lines of Lex...

are you hungry before bed?  will you notice any loss in muscle composition if you don't eat right before be?  otherwise, why eat? 

Eating is very stimulating in energy for me... right before bed does not work for me at all, I won't fall asleep within at least 6 hours.

On few occasions I felt hungry before bed, but I had not eaten enough during the day.  I knew I didn't eat enough, but it was approaching evening so I wanted to just wait until the next day. By bed time I was so hungry that I ate anyway and then could not fall asleep until a few hours before it was time to wake for work. So, I try to be sure to eat enough during the day so that doesn't happen. 

Offline miles

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Re: Before Bed-time
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2010, 06:39:26 am »
All I need is to recover properly.. I train 2 times in the day. In the week I do 'conditioning'(with weights etc.) early on and my sport late on; week-ends it's reversed. I eat low-cooked fatty meat(alone but with fishoil/small multivit) before the first and between the first and second session. What to do after the second is where I get stuck...

I'm not a body-builder exactly, we have weight-divisions; but I need to make sure that every time I train in my sport I am strong, recovered, ache and pain free to perform to my best and get the most improvement I can out of the session. That is the goal of everything I do outside of it, preparation.

When exploring what to eat before sleeping, I've only really found information from/for body-builders. It varies a lot, but it seems to be mainly to have protein with little else. Would this also keep me from sleeping?

Thanks.

Edit: 11pm, maybe finished my 'conditioning' around 1hr ago; though finishing would usually range between 7-9pm. I'm feeling fairly tired, but I'm also a bit hungry.. The stomach acid is building up. I don't know if that's just because I'm used to eating after my second session, or because I should be eating, but just lean meat or something *shrug*.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 07:00:00 am by miles »
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Before Bed-time
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2010, 06:55:17 pm »
Well, an obvious solution would be to eat raw and stop the low-cooking, or just eat at an earlier time. I'd also suggest getting rid of the multivitamin and going in for vitamin-/mineral-rich foods like raw oysters etc.
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Offline miles

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Re: Before Bed-time
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2010, 08:42:44 pm »
Well the hunger built up and I felt so strongly that my body was telling me to eat(High stomach acid and getting jittery) and I didn't think I should ignore it. I ate some raw beef-rump(ended up finishing at 1am since I'd tried to go without eating), quite a lot of fat. Again I didn't get to sleep for a long time, and when I did I kept waking up. I then woke up a few hours before I usually would, and I had strong hunger again and couldn't get back to sleep. That's my second time waking after a day without fruit and again feel achy and non-recovered from a bad night's sleep, even more so than yesterday since I guess it's kind of 'stacked up'.
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Offline jessica

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Re: Before Bed-time
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2010, 09:36:22 pm »
that is super late to eat, there is a pretty standard circadian rythm of the human body that has to do with sunlight/moonlight, sleep and recovery.  i would think that fish is much easier to digest at night, maybe liver(liver smoothie), raw milk? anything that is easier/more quickly to digest to stave of your hunger, plus liver and raw milk also have a bit of carbs so maybe that would ease your aches from no carbs.  i would think if you are that hungry at night you arent eating enough before your second training session so maybe adding some more easily digestable food to your midday meal so you arent so totally starved at night? 

also are you properly hidrated before you eat/get hungry?

do you get enough minerals? (seaweed, chewing good quality celery is the best source)

i know some people can sustain on zero carbs which is great but i am in the family that doesnt do too well, especially when i am trying to have a lot of physical activity in my life(i  am not a body builder but i do long distance bicycling, trail running...)
if it was me i would add back carbs in the form of (raw of slightly warmed, not cooked) squash, sweet potatoes or berries, but pretty minimal amounts. and probably make a warm fish/white meat stew with seaweed and maybe half a potato/1 cup of squash for my night meal :)
i hope you can find something that works better for yourself, sleep, muscles and digestive system!

Offline djr_81

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Re: Before Bed-time
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2010, 11:09:13 pm »
I'm surprised nobody brought up the fact that you're most likely overtraining. I don't personally know anybody that would fully rebuild & recover after two heavy exercise sessions every day with no breaks.
I think most of your symptoms are indicative of fat metabolization. I have similar difficulty sleeping if I eat a lot of fat within an hour or two of bedtime even if it's tempered with lots of meat. Fat's just got a warming and energizing effect of me so I try to get my second meal of the day finished by 6 or 7PM.
Unfortunately with your energy expenditure you need to be eating either fat or carbs either just prior to or after your second workout. If you go with a high protein load you'll get the pangs. Any way to eat a large meal an hour before the second workout? If you go with a high fat content you should still be sustained until the morning.
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Offline miles

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Re: Before Bed-time
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2010, 12:08:45 am »
During the week my second session finishes between 20:30 and 22:00. I could eat a lot before the second, but I'm struggling to eat a lot of the raw meat(Supermarket beef mince approx. 18g protein/16g fat and deep red colour which I think is good) which I've just started trying... Once I can eat enough of it, I'd think it might satisfy my hungry for longer than cooked as well?

Why is it that body-builder types talk about eating a load of protein right before bed.. cottage cheese/chicken breast? I'd think that if they did it that it must be good for recovery, but it doesn't feel good normally to eat protein w/o fat, and the fat, it would seem, might be what's keeping me awake..? They actually talk about purposefully eating foods that will make the protein digest slowly, to last them through the night, but also saying at the same time not to overeat because it's 'just meant to be a snack'. This doesn't really make sense...
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Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Before Bed-time
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2010, 01:14:41 am »
Often we get hungry due to habit.  Like Pavlov's dog we get hungry because we've conditioned our bodies to expect food at a certain time. Have you ever thought about making sure you're eating enough earlier in the day and then going to bed hungry.  You might be surprised at how much better you feel in the morning.

Full recovery from intense exercise is not an immediate thing.  It can take a good bit of time, often days.  If you think your body is recovering fully while you sleep because you ate a meal before going to bed, I think you are fooling yourself. Digestion takes energy away from the body's repair and maintenance activities.  I also suspect that djr_81's observation about over training is rather closer to the truth than not.

Lex 

Offline djr_81

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Re: Before Bed-time
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2010, 01:17:14 am »
During the week my second session finishes between 20:30 and 22:00. I could eat a lot before the second, but I'm struggling to eat a lot of the raw meat(Supermarket beef mince approx. 18g protein/16g fat and deep red colour which I think is good) which I've just started trying... Once I can eat enough of it, I'd think it might satisfy my hungry for longer than cooked as well?
I do find raw meat & fat to be more satiating than cooked was. It's also much more sustaining for me as well hence the need for just two meals a day (and others who only need/desire a single meal).
I don't know about the UK but here in the US I have a distrust of truly red meat at the supermarket. It was common practice for our butchers to add red dye to meat to enhance it's shelf appeal (who really desires to buy grey meat?). I know they got in trouble for it a couple years ago as they were selling meat past it's designated shelf date and people got sick from it. I believe it's supposed to say on the package if dye has been added but I don't trust all producers to follow this.
Have you tried steak raw? I can't eat mince/chop meat frequently; it sits heavy and kind of weird. Raw steak is the way to go IMO.

Quote
Why is it that body-builder types talk about eating a load of protein right before bed.. cottage cheese/chicken breast? I'd think that if they did it that it must be good for recovery, but it doesn't feel good normally to eat protein w/o fat, and the fat, it would seem, might be what's keeping me awake..? They actually talk about purposefully eating foods that will make the protein digest slowly, to last them through the night, but also saying at the same time not to overeat because it's 'just meant to be a snack'. This doesn't really make sense...
Protein is needed for the repairs to the body. Of course most bodybuilders go way overboard on the necessary quantities but they're also usually looking at it as "fat is bad, carbs are bad unless carb-loading, protein is the optimal choice". The healthy way to do it is get a good amount of protein in your system for repairs but also make sure you get plenty of raw fat.
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Offline miles

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Re: Before Bed-time
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2010, 05:23:13 am »
F***. Is there some chemical they add to beef mince that disappears or becomes harmless when it's cooked or something? There is some chemical(Natural/Unnatural, Added or not I can't tell) in the beef mince that repulses me, tells me not to eat it. It gives me a kind of headache as I eat it and for a long time afterwards(many hours), and I had it last time I tried raw mince. It's horrible.

I don't think I got this with the Rump steak I had raw this morning... But then maybe I just didn't have so much. However it still repulsed me, the taste... I could handle it though, thought I just needed to get used to it, but with the mince I think there is something different...

Edit: Just had some properly raw Beef Rump Steak, left out of the fridge for ~6hrs and it was delicious. The last one I had, I had heated it in the oven to just make it warm; didn't taste nice. I don't know what that was in the mince though still...
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 07:48:49 am by miles »
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Offline djr_81

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Re: Before Bed-time
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2010, 08:30:09 am »
There are a number of things they could add to mince/chop meat which could give you problems if you're sensitive. I don't have a handle on the specific compounds but most are artificial preservatives. Mince/chop meat is a dicey food to use as a basis for a diet as it is so easy for unscrupulous sellers to put many things into it which you wouldn't knowingly eat.

I'm glad that you are doing better with the rump steak. :)
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Before Bed-time
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2010, 09:41:28 am »
Well the hunger built up and I felt so strongly that my body was telling me to eat(High stomach acid and getting jittery) and I didn't think I should ignore it. I ate some raw beef-rump(ended up finishing at 1am since I'd tried to go without eating), quite a lot of fat. Again I didn't get to sleep for a long time, and when I did I kept waking up. I then woke up a few hours before I usually would, and I had strong hunger again and couldn't get back to sleep. That's my second time waking after a day without fruit and again feel achy and non-recovered from a bad night's sleep, even more so than yesterday since I guess it's kind of 'stacked up'.

I find that taking my vitamin D3 softgel really improves the quality of my sleep.  Also, you really need to stop eating right before bed, if you can.  It will NOT help the quality of the sleep. LOL

Offline RawZi

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Re: Before Bed-time
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2010, 01:14:31 pm »
F***. Is there some chemical they add to beef mince that disappears or becomes harmless when it's cooked or something? There is some chemical(Natural/Unnatural, Added or not I can't tell) in the beef mince that repulses me, tells me not to eat it. It gives me a kind of headache as I eat it and for a long time afterwards(many hours), and I had it last time I tried raw mince. It's horrible.

    About a year and a half back I was stuck somewhere and the only market I could get to, the best meat was free range chicken.  Their fish wasn't very good in my opinion and their beef was factory raised.  I could not eat the chicken as it had a chemical taste to me.  I wondered if they regularly add chemicals to it, but cooking would melt off the foreign matter.  Me being a raw eater, I thought I must have been tasting something cooked eaters miss because of either cooking the chemicals out or spicing it up resultantly covering up that taste.  My cats would not eat this raw chicken either.  I put it out for some homeless dogs after.  If I recall correct I then tried to eat a plain home boiled potato no salt or anything added to replace some of my calorie needs, and that only hurt my body. 

    Does anyone know if these same or other chemicals that are added to mince are also added to chicken?  A raw paleo dieter I know in EEU just told me that the red meat in the supermarkets nearby there that those butchers inject anything into the meat while at the store to make it bigger, juicier, heavier.   
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Offline djr_81

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Re: Before Bed-time
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2010, 08:18:03 pm »
    Does anyone know if these same or other chemicals that are added to mince are also added to chicken?  A raw paleo dieter I know in EEU just told me that the red meat in the supermarkets nearby there that those butchers inject anything into the meat while at the store to make it bigger, juicier, heavier.   

That a common practice here in New York and I assume most/all other states in the US.
It does seem to be practiced more frequently with red meat at larger outfits like Wal-Mart but I'm sure others do it too.
Just about any chicken in the supermarket has been injected with broth and "flavorings" which is unfortunately way too vague to implicitly trust. I'm sure some of the injection is preservatives.
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Offline miles

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Re: Before Bed-time
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2010, 09:01:45 pm »
I thought that in the UK they had to say if they added any ingredients, but there is nothing on the packet..

Heh... I actually tested the beef-mince on my cats too, a few months ago when I first tried it raw. They did eat it, but I didn't give them much, it's possible they may have left it after a while *shrug*.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Before Bed-time
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2010, 09:12:23 pm »
The UK supermarkets are notorious for adding preservatives and other rubbish to chicken etc, without labelling being required. Only organic meats can be trusted if only partially - that is, organic meats in the supermarket are  commonly fed on grains(eg:- chicken) or in the case of beef, generally grain-finished.
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Offline miles

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Re: Before Bed-time
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2010, 08:02:56 pm »
Oh man... I ran out of meat I could have raw that was defrosted and left out of the fridge.. So I cooked up some of the mince gently as I have been doing before. I think my stomach was already getting used to the raw because I've got quite a pain now... I think maybe since raw meat's more acidic, I didn't need as much acid, but now my cooked meat is sitting rotting in my guts or something...
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Re: Before Bed-time
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2010, 11:55:26 pm »
Raw meat is so much less acidic that the few who cannot make stomach acid must eat only raw.

Some who have trouble eating cooked meat solve that problem with added acid in the form of Betaine HCl, and some think that salt is essential for cooked meat, for the sake of the chlorine.

Offline djr_81

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Re: Before Bed-time
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2010, 04:40:28 am »
Raw meat is so much less acidic that the few who cannot make stomach acid must eat only raw.
Through my own experiences as of late I contend that grainfed meat is still too acidifying. I'm inclined to say it's as, or more, acidifying as lightly cooked grassfed (but won't as I have not, and do not plan, to test this hypothesis). This may all just be an auto-immune reaction to allergies but I've got a hunch it's deeper than just that.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Before Bed-time
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2010, 06:14:37 pm »
Raw meat is definitely less acidic than cooked meat, by far. Heavily cooked, highly processed meats are even more acidic.
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Offline miles

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Re: Before Bed-time
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2010, 11:40:17 pm »
Eh?... Raw seems much more acidic... and if people didn't produce stomach acid, then they'd want to eat food that had acid in it already...? And you said they eat raw.

Not saying I'm right, because I know nothing. It's just I don't understand.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Before Bed-time
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2010, 03:31:21 am »
AV claims that if one doesn't produce enough stomach-acid that is a huge problem when eatingenzyme-deficient cooked foods, but not a problem with raw foods as they contain enzymes within them that help predigest the foods. And raw meat is acidic:-

http://www.eutechinst.com/techtips/tech-tips35.htm

it's just that cooked meat is even more acidic than raw meat. I can't see how anyone can view raw meat as being more acidic. I mean texture-wise, and in terms of digestion, raw meat is clearly more PH neutral than cooked meat.
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