Cooked meat and health

[Daryl]

First, let me say that in the short time I've been reading this site, I've really enjoyed it. Some very knowledgable folks here.

Also, I'll state that I DO think that eating a raw diet is almost certainly the healthiest way of eating we have availible to us; but, being the way I am, I truly doubt that I'd ever "go raw". It's that "dietary socialisation" that the Bear talks about, I suppose 

Anyway, my question: how healthy do you all see a carnivorous diet with cooked meat would be? A fellow named Charles at Jimmy Moore's site is following such, and seems to enjoy excellent health, and he makes a good argument that one will still reap much benefit from a non-raw zero carb diet.

[TylerDurden]

If you look at the data(re HCAs/AGES/NSAs and PAHs), you'll find that cooked animal food is worse than cooked plant-food in its effect(partly because most animal-food is eaten well-cooked, while a lot of plant-food is either eaten raw or lightly-steamed). In short, a zero- or near-zero carb cooked diet  would invariably lead to a heart-attack or worse in the long run(though carb-related conditions would not happen) - it's true that the Eskimos following their traditional diet centuries ago didn't suffer from heart-disease, but they had several things going for them:- 1) A heavy amount of daily exercise and 2) a diet extremely rich in omega-3 fatty-acids from wild game such as seals, much of which meat was eaten raw(especially the organ-meats which are much higher in nutrients than the muscle-meats).

My advice would be for you to  compromise by going in for a high-fat cooked palaeolithic diet, according to the usual ratios(ie 65% animal food/35% plant-food). Try to eat the plant-food in raw form as it's more socially acceptable to do that, and cook your animal-food only minimally. Indeed, many RPDers are forced into social situations from time to time where they have to eat cooked-food so they usually tell people to just heat the meat for 10 seconds on both sides, thus leaving the inside more or less raw.

[Satya]

Anyway, my question: how healthy do you all see a carnivorous diet with cooked meat would be? A fellow named Charles at Jimmy Moore's site is following such, and seems to enjoy excellent health, and he makes a good argument that one will still reap much benefit from a non-raw zero carb diet.

All meat?  All cooked?  You will miss out on vitamin C, B-6 and others on such a plan.  Not to mention the changes in protein, loss of enzymes, etc.  Is every meal every day a major social event?  If not, why not try some raw foods as well?  That's how I do it (though I eat mostly raw foods).  Besides, raw foods like sushi and sashimi are very chic just now.  Heck, steak tartare is also very fashionable.  Why the fear of raw meat?  It can be done socially, though perhaps not always.

I prefer raw meat for the most part.  Of course, I eat raw plants too, so I get more vitamin C from that.  I have a family, and I have finally broken down resistance to raw meat from the one member who had objected.  Yippee!!!  I am not forcing an all raw plan on my family all the time, mind you, but you might find yourself craving raw meat if you ever get around to trying it.  I find raw lamb, beef and fish to be far superior in flavor and the feelings they produce in my body than anything cooked.

[LvB]

So if I'm in a situation where I have to cook my meat, is there a way to sear it for a few seconds so that if I eat the remaining raw part there will still be benifits of bacteria? Or will the slightest amount of cooking kill all bacteria in the meat, just leaving the appearance and texture of raw meat?

My parents think it's absurd that I feel better eating raw meat, they think it's all in my head but it's not! I only believe it because I haven't felt so good from eating food since I can remember. Of course, even though my parents say they're open minded about it, it sounds like they'll never get past that socially conditioned fear of raw meat... I even had the information of AGE's in front of my mother, and that's information way beyond that of someone's biased message in an article. They just don't get it, and it's really frustrating to me.

[TylerDurden]

Searing the meat on either side for a few seconds won't destroy all the bacteria and will leave the inside generally raw. Many RAFers compromise when going out to restaurants by asking for  "cold on a cold plate" meaning they want each side of the meat seared for 10 seconds - they know that ordering fully  raw meats often scares US restaurants as they're afraid being sued, if they allow the practice.

You could also go in for high-quality probiotics or "EM" products see www.eminfo.org) to get extra bacteria.

[ErikFury]

Anyway, my question: how healthy do you all see a carnivorous diet with cooked meat would be? A fellow named Charles at Jimmy Moore's site is following such, and seems to enjoy excellent health, and he makes a good argument that one will still reap much benefit from a non-raw zero carb diet.

don't listen to us. YOU be the judge for yourself. eat cooked meat for a while and then eat raw meat for a while and find out which one tastes better and see for yourself the effects it has on your body. This way you know from experience which you prefer and what works for you.


this is a raw paleo forum so everyone is going to say: eat raw meat!


I find that I tolerate raw meat better than cooked meat. plus I find that raw meat tastes better than cooked meat. It's a no-brainer for me.

[TylerDurden]

The trouble is that most people take some time before they get used to the taste of raw meats(c.8-12 months).

[Nicola]

Barry Groves "Trick and Treat":

When you cook meat you destroy hydrophibic acid and the cooked meat repels the digestive acids.

Gelatin with the meal can change this.


Nicola

[TylerDurden]

That's strange. Up till now, Barry Groves always claimed that cooking was 100% A-OK, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary.

[invisible]

I found that a zero carb diet of cooked meat increased my health dramatically compared to a standard diet. I was on it for months. In practically every study showing benefits of following low carb diets the meat was indeed cooked. However a raw zero carb diet is just that much better in every aspect. I will never willingly eat cooked meat again, nor will anyone who adheres to the raw meat diet for hmm no more than a week. That's all it will take.

[invisible]

The trouble is that most people take some time before they get used to the tatse of raw meats(c.8-12 months).

Ive always liked the taste if rare meat and would have eaten meat raw long ago if I wasn't told of the dangers of bacteria. I think people are scared more of the thought and appearance of raw meat. Thinking it is somewhat gross. They like their meat to not resemble an animal when they eat it.

[RawZi]

    Nicola, if muscle is cooked alone, that renders it hard to digest, but cooked with the cartilage and other parts that make gelatin it is more digestible?  Thanks.

Barry Groves "Trick and Treat":

When you cook meat you destroy hydrophibic acid and the cooked meat repels the digestive acids.

Gelatin with the meal can change this.


Nicola

[goodsamaritan]

I think it has more to do with cultural upbringing.

I've always eaten salmon raw in restaurants and have found it odd people cook salmon.
I've always eaten oysters raw, dipped in vinegar and find it odd it is sold in cans or cooked / stir fried... horrors!
I was brought up to think tuna is supposed to be served always as sashimi.

Most of you here would be shocked to see Filipinos cooking bananas!
I still cannot picture myself eating raw duck balut.... not yet...

[RawZi]

    I've never eaten balut raw or cooked, I've never even seen it in person not being eaten.  I have eaten raw duck eggs (undeveloped).  I've also eaten raw duck, as has my cat who just made a bed here on me.  One thing I like a lot about duck is that my cats like the fat on it, and they like duck so much, even the skin that they steal it from my plate.  They don't like chicken or beef.  I think they may have good instincts in this.

[JaX]

The trouble is that most people take some time before they get used to the tatse of raw meats(c.8-12 months).

That seems like a lot of time to me! I got used to raw muscle meat in 1 week, loved it and craved after 2-3 weeks.

Raw organs though, I'm still experimenting with, and I still can't stand the taste of kidney and liver (although heart and tongue I got used to just as quickly as muscle meats: 1 week or so)

[RawZi]

    It took me about three months.  I'm still not so good with eating tongue.

[TylerDurden]

That seems like a lot of time to me! I got used to raw muscle meat in 1 week, loved it and craved after 2-3 weeks.

Raw organs though, I'm still experimenting with, and I still can't stand the taste of kidney and liver (although heart and tongue I got used to just as quickly as muscle meats: 1 week or so)

I was referring to raw meats in general, including raw organ-meats like liver, not just raw muscle-meats - raw muscle-meats are easy to get used to, especially since many people have eaten steak tartare many times before going rawpalaeo.

[Nicola]

Barry Groves "Trick and Treat":

When you cook meat you destroy hydrophibic acid and the cooked meat repels the digestive acids.

Gelatin with the meal can change this.


Nicola

It was Dr. Pottenger who pointed out that stock is also of great value because it supplies hydrophilic colloids to the diet. Raw food compounds are colloidal and tend to be hydrophilic, meaning that they attract liquids. Thus when we eat a salad or some other raw food, the hydrophilic colloids attract digestive juices for rapid and effective digestion. Colloids that have been heated are generally hydrophobic - they repel liquids, making cooked foods harder to digest. However, the proteinaceous getlatin in meat broths has the unusual property of attracting liquids - it is hydrophilic - even after it has been heated. The same property by which gelatin attracts water to form desserts, like Jello, allows it to attract digestive juices to the surface of cooked food particles.

[Satya]

First, let me say that in the short time I've been reading this site, I've really enjoyed it. Some very knowledgable folks here.

Also, I'll state that I DO think that eating a raw diet is almost certainly the healthiest way of eating we have availible to us; but, being the way I am, I truly doubt that I'd ever "go raw". It's that "dietary socialisation" that the Bear talks about, I suppose 

Anyway, my question: how healthy do you all see a carnivorous diet with cooked meat would be? A fellow named Charles at Jimmy Moore's site is following such, and seems to enjoy excellent health, and he makes a good argument that one will still reap much benefit from a non-raw zero carb diet.

Is it me, or should this topic be moved to hot topics?  I quote the original post.  I would love to respond to dear Nicola, but I would feel better doing so if the topic was moved, as what I have to say supports this one cooked food item that is bone stock. 

Thank you, wonderful moderators, for your consideration.

[Satya]

Thanks for moving this, Tyler.  The fact that the original question concerned a cooked foods version of zero carb diet on a raw paleo forum, begged for it to reside in hot topics. 

Nicola, I quite agree that bone stock soups are very valuable.  As many of you know, I began eating RVAF about 1.5 years ago.  I have never quite given cooked foods the boot completely (mainly due to family life) - I eat 60-90% raw daily, increasingly RAF.  I eat only paleo foods plus wine on occasion.  The majority of the cooked foods I eat are in the form of soup stocks which have been simmered in water and a bit of acid like lemon juice or coconut vinegar for over 24 hours.  Beef and lamb are the main bone stocks I make, although if I can get fish bones and heads in season, that is also great.  Poultry I do to a lesser extent.  I make them nearly daily.  I eat them every other day, especially in winter.

There are a ton of minerals and connective tissues available with stock preparation.  It is, imho, a great use for marrow bones once the marrow has been eaten raw.  Why not?  I realize some of you have to eat all raw for health, or choose to be all raw for other reasons.  But I would have to say that bone broths are by far the most benign (and perhaps) health-giving cooked foods around.  In addition to what Nicola said, this article spells out why these foods might be a good choice. 

http://www.townsendletter.com/FebMarch2005/broth0205.htm

Anyone with digestion problems might do well to transition to raw using stocks to help them along.  Also, I try to keep to a middle path in my life.  After veganism, I found that any total all or nothing approach is probably not a good thing for me personally.  So while I totally love RAF, and I will never go back to dairy, grains or the majority of my food cooked again, I feel this one food does make sense.  As a highly-trained martial artist in my 40s, I think my joints thank me for adding this food in my diet.  It is impossible to eat bones raw, unless you are talking anchovies, and I do eat those whole.  Gnawing on joint bones of big land animals is something my dog does better.  So that is my reasoning, and here endeth the sermon.

[Raw Kyle]

Hey Satya, this might not be kosher but I'd appreciate a bone stock recipe in the recipes section.

[Satya]

Hey Baby, I don't think Tyler would appreciate a cooked recipe in the recipes section.  But I will post one in this thread mañana, k?

PS.  My poor kitty has his privates on display here. 

[TylerDurden]

Cooked recipes should really go here or  in the Weston-Price forum, where applicable. I have very grudgingly allowed pemmican in the recipes section but only because it's an emergency measure for RAFers(zero-carbers, usually) who can't easily go travelling with raw animal foods.

[van]

HI,  on Charles' blog a man named Delfuego has just recently described how he rendered his fat around one hundred degrees F.  Thus he truly has a raw pemican.  He has been eating, along with his family or four,  just pemican for four years now.  His posts are most interesting.  Just thought I pass this along.