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Offline HIT_it_RAW

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Re: Today's workout?
« Reply #600 on: May 26, 2011, 03:27:25 am »
People who have gained strength on machines can indeed not repeat that performance with free weights. But that is because free weight exercises demand an incredible amount of skill. If you want to get better at lifting weights than lift weights. If you just want to get stronger/bigger to do anything else use the best equipment for that goal. And that may very well be a machine.

If you have 1 person who got strong on a machine and one with free weights. Lets say chest presses and bench presses. And than select an activity that uses those muscles but that both have not done before than the free weight guy has no advantage to the machine guy. That's my point. Serious weightlifter want to be good at lifting weight so they don't use machines. If you do not lift weight competitively there is no harm in using an properly designed machine,in fact it would be a very sensible thing top do.

The negative part is a very important part of the exercise for various reasons. As is the positive part.
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Offline pioneer

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Re: Today's workout?
« Reply #601 on: May 26, 2011, 06:35:20 am »
Pioneer
Drop that overhead press weight to 105 lbs so you get 8 reps. Than increase to 115 next time than 125 next time. Obviously you don't have that much fast twitch in the press muscles or you would have improved by now. Don't be to proud to reduce the weight. I've made that mistake in the past.

Other than that your doing great man keep it up.

Good idea man, so far, you've been giving me nothing but good advice so next workout will be 105. Other than overhead presses, I am gaining good.
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Offline KD

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Re: Today's workout?
« Reply #602 on: May 26, 2011, 09:07:17 am »
People who have gained strength on machines can indeed not repeat that performance with free weights. But that is because free weight exercises demand an incredible amount of skill. If you want to get better at lifting weights than lift weights. If you just want to get stronger/bigger to do anything else use the best equipment for that goal. And that may very well be a machine.

If you have 1 person who got strong on a machine and one with free weights. Lets say chest presses and bench presses. And than select an activity that uses those muscles but that both have not done before than the free weight guy has no advantage to the machine guy. That's my point. Serious weightlifter want to be good at lifting weight so they don't use machines. If you do not lift weight competitively there is no harm in using an properly designed machine,in fact it would be a very sensible thing top do.

The negative part is a very important part of the exercise for various reasons. As is the positive part.

Based on peoples experince of doing machine type worksouts and then switching to compound barbell lifts that just is not accurate. Your criticizing of people doing things essentially for some kind of bravado is way worse ignorance than people assuming there is nothing one can do better with a machine.

Learning skills really doesn't involve that much effort and at the end of the day you can know the ins and outs of an overhead squat or snatch or clean and still be incredibly weak in terms of having the muscular strength (or in many cases flexibility) of doing one successfully at high levels of work.

A perfect example in myself is that I cannot do overhead squats/snatches with any serious weight whatsoever. I have the form down as best as I can but am extremely limited in term of my flexibility and strength in those areas. I can press or use a pulley or dumbell raise or squat 2-3 times over some small women who can double my overhead squat and certainly lift more on the snatch if not double.

Also of note is the 'Asian squat' thread and ATG vs parallel type squats. These are certainly 'skills' but they are ones dictated by how much strength and flexibility one has in muscles that generally only improve through more complex natural movements and not static machine movements. After doing all manner of advanced yoga and plenty of gym exercises I can safely say that weighted compound exercise is simply the best in adjusting overall flexibilities and blockages..very much something that translates outside of the gym regardless of being at a competitive event.

Its no mystery that when people start doing compound lifts that their abilities to take on other workouts involving similar complex movement (like rope climbs or tire flips for instance) or real world activities is extended. People that train CF have no problem doing massively heavy tire flips on their fist time. do you honestly think someone trained on machines will be able to accomplish the same thing?

The chest press vs bench press is no question that the bench will increase total strength, size and musculature quicker over time and not just for the action of the bench. You can take that up with any serious lifter. Since it is not a true compound lift and both are easily pigeonholed as unnatural there are not really too many activities that would use that type of strength. If there was - like pushing rubble off oneself - the chest press would lose. Although I like choosing the most efficient exercise myself for chest they can both be equally considered useless in comparison to other exercises like clean and dead-lift and the more complex snatch and clean and jerks which have absolutely no corollary in terms of the tinier more functional muscles being engaged. Its true that these things require skill but they also acquire joint flexibilities and really focused strength in certain areas which translate to gymnastics and true functional strength as well as a more refined natural build.

You might think you are now 'fighting the establishment which fights the establishment' or something but the truth is many people physically don't have the capabilities to do even even basic variations of the same exercise - even a simple comprrasion like standing press as opposed to machine military press or leg press as opposed to squat. This is entirely to do with the actual strength and flexibility involved which matures through the motion of the lift itself and can't really do so through isolated motion. The machine versions may have their place but if someone cannot (after some basic mastery) do those lifts it means that they actually only have strength which applies to a machine. No matter if someone wants to just look good or not and cares little about competitive lifts or real strength its unlikely that the machine in that instance is creating a more efficient workout than the skilled movement.

But it seems like youve already downgraded your point to something I agree with that there is 'no harm' to using a machine or that a negative is just an important part of an exercise, and not 'most important'. To me let me just cement the original comparison as to what is effective and say I feel pretty confident if there was a 100,200,possibly 300 ft rope I could climb that rope neglecting any 'negative' in the process and likely alot faster from doing the machine. So I personally am not 'anti machines'. Turns out very few people at my other CF gym coming from traditional workouts jacked or svelte can get their as 10 ft up that rope...

Offline HIT_it_RAW

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Re: Today's workout?
« Reply #603 on: May 26, 2011, 06:37:15 pm »
You don’s get what I’m trying to say. I’ve never sais all barbell exercises are bad and all machines are good. The squat and deadlift are the very best exercises one could do. A leg press is less good than a squat because it is a limited range exercise whereas a squat is a near full range exercise. However the weaker lower back muscles limit the fail way before the much stronger gluteus and quadriceps muscles do so it it still a good idea to supplement your squats with leg presses.

You say switch from machine to compound barbell exercises. No doubt if you do only isolation machines you will make little progress. But most machines are also sompound exercises.

With skill I don’t just mean knowing how to lift a barbell overhead. I mean the extreme complex combination of neuromuscular coordination and timing. Olympic style lifting requires a lot of that skill. Watch closely and you will often see a lifter performing better than his rival because he has superior technique. He weighs the same as his rival is not bigger or stronger but still performs better that is skill. You cannot ignore that factor.

Quote
After doing all manner of advanced yoga and plenty of gym exercises I can safely say that weighted compound exercise is simply the best in adjusting overall flexibilities and blockages..
Your’re right weighted compound exercises are the best type of exercise but that is not limited to barbell training. In fact most exercise machines are compound exercises.
Quote
I can press or use a pulley or dumbell raise or squat 2-3 times over some small women who can double my overhead squat and certainly lift more on the snatch if not double.
My point exactly you are clearly stronger than those woman yet they outperform you on highly specialises technical lifts because they have superior skill!

The bench press is not a compound lift? Where did you get that idea man? A compound movement is one that requires several muscular structures to work together and involves more than 1 joint. In the bench press/chest press the pectoralis minor, pectoralis manor, the frotal and lateral deltoid the triceps and quite few other muscles work together. The shoulder elbow and wrist are involved. I think I can safely say it’s a proper compound exercise. Yu assume that the bench press would build strength quicker than the chestpress but that is not my experience at all. When I started training I did benches when I hit a plateau I tried everything, nothing worked. Disgusted I stopped doing benches and started doing cp’s my strength skyrocketed. Later I tried to see if this strength could be used in benches and off course it could. I could press double than I could when I did benches. Many people I trained with experienced a similar thing.

But lets try to look at the issue a bit more scientifically. What does a barbell do? A barbell provides resistance against movement powered by muscular contraction. That’s it as simple as that. A machine can do the exact same thing. I can easily build you a machine that simulates the forces involved in a bench press exactly but that machine would not provide a benefit over the regular bench press. I could also build a machine that has a greater range of possible movement that varies the resistance as your strength changes throughout the movement. That machine would be a lot better than a bench press. However I have a better example to illustrate this point. But first I’d like to discuss what is actually required for proper strength training.

1 Full range exercise. If a muscle is not exercises throughout a full range of possible movement than that exercise can only ever train a limited portion of that muscle. A muscular fibre works by contracting. The more fibres contract the bigger the output of muscular force. But as more fiber contract that muscle also becomes shorter for obvious reasons. This lead us to the second point of great importance:

2 Resistance in the position of full contraction. Only in the position where the muscles are shortest fully contracted can the maximum numbers of fibres be involved in the exercise. So only in the position of maximum contraction you can train the entire muscle. All conventional barbell exercises offer no resistance at all in the position of full muscular contraction and therefore exercise only part of the muscle. And most barbell exercises are limited range due to the fact that they offer only linear resistance. Which leads to the next point.

3 Omni directional resistances. Since barbell exercises use gravity to generate resistance the resistance is linear. That is in a straight line up and down. In a compound exercise like a squat/bench press etc the barbell moves in a straight line (or should at least). The resistance is the same through the entire range of movement. But the force the muscles can generate varies enormously throughout the movement. This changing strength curve creates so called sticking point in the movement. You will fail when the muscle is in its weakest position but have than not yet worked the largest part of the muscle (in its strongest position) to a point of failure. In a single axis barbell exercise such as a biceps curl the resistance varies 100%. When the arm are straight there is no resistance for the biceps muscle. At 90 degrees, the sticky point, the resistance is 100%. At the top of the movement where the biceps is at its strongest there is again no resistance for them. A proper designed (and again they are rare) machine varies the resistance so that it matches the strength curve of the particular muscle it provides resistance for. This means that when you work at 100% of your available strength in the weakest position you can still continue the movement to the strongest position where you can also work to 100% intensity. Only a machine designed in that way will allow you to work the muscle throughout the entire range of movement at 100% intensity.

4 Direct resistance. The resistance should be exposed to the body part that is moved by the muscle you are trying to train. For example when you are trying to train the quadriceps with squats the resistance is opposed upon the torso. But the quadriceps moves the lower legs. In the squat the lower back fails long before the quadriceps are being worked even close to their maximum potential. To work the quadriceps maximum you need to expose the resistance to the lower legs via a leg extension. These types of isolation exercises are not always necessary because the indirect effect from training large muscular masses with compound exercise usually build them to a desirable strength. If however one wants to build the quadriceps to their maximum possible size (for bodybuilding or certain sports) or wants to train that muscle with minimum risk of injury (rehabilitation on an injured knee) the leg extension is a vital component of training. The leg extension should not be used to exclude squats but should used with squats. The leg extension can pre-exhaust the quadriceps so that when squats are done immediately afterwards the quadriceps are trained equally hard as the lower back.

5 Resistance in the negative part of the exercise. Lifting is positive lowering is negative. However to the muscular fibres there is little difference they are generating force against a resistance. With fresh muscles you are 40% stronger negative than positive meaning that you can lower a weight under strict control that is 40% heavier than you could lift maximal. This is because of internal muscular friction that helps you when lowering but hurt you when lifting. The simple physics law “everything that has both mass and motion also has friction” applies of course also to a muscle. I don’t want to go into how exactly this friction is generated (but I could) because this post is already way to long. We can however use this friction to our advantage When its is no longer possible to lift the weight due to muscular failure we can still lower it slowly for a few more reps. This means after failing in the positive movement that you cheat, or preferably be helped, to the top and than lower it under control. This allows you to train the muscle harder, more intense. The payoff is a greater stimulus for growth. The negative part of training has been extensively studied and have shown to have a very significant part in exercise. When eccentric (negative) only training was compared to concentric only training the eccentric trained trainees gained more strength and more rapidly. This strength was not limited to eccentric movements but could also be used in concentric movements. Which is logical as they are the same thing just with a different direction. One study proving the necessity for eccentric(negative) training.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1859341
All isometric training (like your rope pulldown machine) offers no eccentric work whatsoever.

6 Resistance in the starting position. When the body part is in its fully stretched position there should still be resistance. This resistance is constantly stretching the muscles and therefore increases flexibility greatly. The body has a protective mechanism called the stretch reflex. When an body part is stretched close to its limit the opposing muscle is automatically activated to pull the body part back to reduce risk of injury. Without this reflex your elbow would be dislocated the first time you straighten your arm fast (like in punging). It isn’t because just before you reach maximum extension the biceps is activated to slow the arm down and prevent injury. When training we can use the reflex to our advantage. Just before we initiate the positive movement you lower a bit more allowing the weight to stretch the muscles a bit this activates the stretch reflex. As it is activated we start our movement. If you do this than you can use a larger than normal percentage of a muscle. This is because a part of your muscle cannot be reached via normal neuromuscular pathways nut is wired into this reflex mechanism. This allows you to get that extra rep that stresses the muscle just a bit more. Most barbell exercises don’t provide resistance in the starting position but a propely designed machine can.

7 Rep ranges to suit muscular fibre type. All muscles have a unique mixture of both fast and slow twitch fibres. Some people have lots of fast twitch some have more slow twitch. Some have lots of fast in one muscle and slow in another muscle. However most people have a rather balanced mixture of both types in most muscular structures. Muscles with lots of fast twitch fibres need low rep ranges or will suffer overuse atrophy. Slow twitch need high rep ranges to prevent underuse atrophy. Most people have the usual mixture and should do 8-12 reps. This has nothing to do with the kind of training equipment but is nevertheless a very important factor.

To apply this to a practical example I repeat my question what barbell exercise would you use to train the latimus dorsi?

The only exercise that meets all those requirements is the pullover machine as designed by Arthur Jones. All conventional (barbell/bodyweight) exercises expose the resistances to the hands thereby including the much weaker biceps and forearms muscles. Those weak muscles will fail before the lats are trained to their max. All conventional (barbell/bodyweight) exercises are limited range exercises. Chins/pulldown 180° Bent over row 160° Barbell/Dumbbell pullovers 140°(with about 60° of resistance). A proper machine pullover can provide the 300°. Most people have a range of movement in their shoulders of about 240° That quickly increases to 270° when machine pullovers are done properly. Off course Machine pullovers provide resistance in both the starting position (for improving flexibility and induce the stretch reflex) as the finished position (position of full contraction where the entire muscle can be trained). Machine pullover vary the resistance to match the changing strength output of the latimuss dorsi.

When I introduced machine pullover to my training schedule with no other changes my strength in the lats skyrocketed. My bw went up 15lbs in 6 weeks. My lats weren’t very big when I did pulldown, bent over rows etc. But now they are very big. All my training partners (I’ve been through quite a lot since most couldn’t handle the intensity) had extremely good results with the pullover. I recently started training with a mate of my who had some but not much training history. He followed my program with a lot of machines and gained 40 lbs in 4 months. Admitted he’s genetically gifted but still.

That is why I think properly designed machines should be a very important part of any trainings schedule. If however only poorly designed machines are available (such as a rope pulldown machine) it is better to stick to conventional (barbell) exercises. If people ask my for a workout plan and I don’t know there gym I always give them a very basic barbell program. Make no mistake a properly designed and executed barbell program is very hard and will produce extremely good results. It just can be eve better when proper machines are sensible included in the program.
“A man should be able to build a house, butcher a hog, tan the hide,
preserve the meat, deliver a baby, nurture the sick and reassure the dying, fight a war … specialization is for insects.”

Offline KD

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Re: Today's workout?
« Reply #604 on: May 26, 2011, 09:31:28 pm »
You don’s get what I’m trying to say. I’ve never sais all barbell exercises are bad and all machines are good. The squat and deadlift are the very best exercises one could do. A leg press is less good than a squat because it is a limited range exercise whereas a squat is a near full range exercise. However the weaker lower back muscles limit the fail way before the much stronger gluteus and quadriceps muscles do so it it still a good idea to supplement your squats with leg presses.

You say switch from machine to compound barbell exercises. No doubt if you do only isolation machines you will make little progress. But most machines are also sompound exercises.

With skill I don’t just mean knowing how to lift a barbell overhead. I mean the extreme complex combination of neuromuscular coordination and timing. Olympic style lifting requires a lot of that skill. Watch closely and you will often see a lifter performing better than his rival because he has superior technique. He weighs the same as his rival is not bigger or stronger but still performs better that is skill. You cannot ignore that factor.
Your’re right weighted compound exercises are the best type of exercise but that is not limited to barbell training. In fact most exercise machines are compound exercises. My point exactly you are clearly stronger than those woman yet they outperform you on highly specialises technical lifts because they have superior skill!

The bench press is not a compound lift? Where did you get that idea man? A compound movement is one that requires several muscular structures to work together and involves more than 1 joint. In the bench press/chest press the pectoralis minor, pectoralis manor, the frotal and lateral deltoid the triceps and quite few other muscles work together. The shoulder elbow and wrist are involved. I think I can safely say it’s a proper compound exercise. Yu assume that the bench press would build strength quicker than the chestpress but that is not my experience at all. When I started training I did benches when I hit a plateau I tried everything, nothing worked. Disgusted I stopped doing benches and started doing cp’s my strength skyrocketed. Later I tried to see if this strength could be used in benches and off course it could. I could press double than I could when I did benches. Many people I trained with experienced a similar thing.

But lets try to look at the issue a bit more scientifically. What does a barbell do? A barbell provides resistance against movement powered by muscular contraction. That’s it as simple as that. A machine can do the exact same thing. I can easily build you a machine that simulates the forces involved in a bench press exactly but that machine would not provide a benefit over the regular bench press. I could also build a machine that has a greater range of possible movement that varies the resistance as your strength changes throughout the movement. That machine would be a lot better than a bench press. However I have a better example to illustrate this point. But first I’d like to discuss what is actually required for proper strength training.

1 Full range exercise. If a muscle is not exercises throughout a full range of possible movement than that exercise can only ever train a limited portion of that muscle. A muscular fibre works by contracting. The more fibres contract the bigger the output of muscular force. But as more fiber contract that muscle also becomes shorter for obvious reasons. This lead us to the second point of great importance:

2 Resistance in the position of full contraction. Only in the position where the muscles are shortest fully contracted can the maximum numbers of fibres be involved in the exercise. So only in the position of maximum contraction you can train the entire muscle. All conventional barbell exercises offer no resistance at all in the position of full muscular contraction and therefore exercise only part of the muscle. And most barbell exercises are limited range due to the fact that they offer only linear resistance. Which leads to the next point.

3 Omni directional resistances. Since barbell exercises use gravity to generate resistance the resistance is linear. That is in a straight line up and down. In a compound exercise like a squat/bench press etc the barbell moves in a straight line (or should at least). The resistance is the same through the entire range of movement. But the force the muscles can generate varies enormously throughout the movement. This changing strength curve creates so called sticking point in the movement. You will fail when the muscle is in its weakest position but have than not yet worked the largest part of the muscle (in its strongest position) to a point of failure. In a single axis barbell exercise such as a biceps curl the resistance varies 100%. When the arm are straight there is no resistance for the biceps muscle. At 90 degrees, the sticky point, the resistance is 100%. At the top of the movement where the biceps is at its strongest there is again no resistance for them. A proper designed (and again they are rare) machine varies the resistance so that it matches the strength curve of the particular muscle it provides resistance for. This means that when you work at 100% of your available strength in the weakest position you can still continue the movement to the strongest position where you can also work to 100% intensity. Only a machine designed in that way will allow you to work the muscle throughout the entire range of movement at 100% intensity.

4 Direct resistance. The resistance should be exposed to the body part that is moved by the muscle you are trying to train. For example when you are trying to train the quadriceps with squats the resistance is opposed upon the torso. But the quadriceps moves the lower legs. In the squat the lower back fails long before the quadriceps are being worked even close to their maximum potential. To work the quadriceps maximum you need to expose the resistance to the lower legs via a leg extension. These types of isolation exercises are not always necessary because the indirect effect from training large muscular masses with compound exercise usually build them to a desirable strength. If however one wants to build the quadriceps to their maximum possible size (for bodybuilding or certain sports) or wants to train that muscle with minimum risk of injury (rehabilitation on an injured knee) the leg extension is a vital component of training. The leg extension should not be used to exclude squats but should used with squats. The leg extension can pre-exhaust the quadriceps so that when squats are done immediately afterwards the quadriceps are trained equally hard as the lower back.

5 Resistance in the negative part of the exercise. Lifting is positive lowering is negative. However to the muscular fibres there is little difference they are generating force against a resistance. With fresh muscles you are 40% stronger negative than positive meaning that you can lower a weight under strict control that is 40% heavier than you could lift maximal. This is because of internal muscular friction that helps you when lowering but hurt you when lifting. The simple physics law “everything that has both mass and motion also has friction” applies of course also to a muscle. I don’t want to go into how exactly this friction is generated (but I could) because this post is already way to long. We can however use this friction to our advantage When its is no longer possible to lift the weight due to muscular failure we can still lower it slowly for a few more reps. This means after failing in the positive movement that you cheat, or preferably be helped, to the top and than lower it under control. This allows you to train the muscle harder, more intense. The payoff is a greater stimulus for growth. The negative part of training has been extensively studied and have shown to have a very significant part in exercise. When eccentric (negative) only training was compared to concentric only training the eccentric trained trainees gained more strength and more rapidly. This strength was not limited to eccentric movements but could also be used in concentric movements. Which is logical as they are the same thing just with a different direction. One study proving the necessity for eccentric(negative) training.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1859341
All isometric training (like your rope pulldown machine) offers no eccentric work whatsoever.

6 Resistance in the starting position. When the body part is in its fully stretched position there should still be resistance. This resistance is constantly stretching the muscles and therefore increases flexibility greatly. The body has a protective mechanism called the stretch reflex. When an body part is stretched close to its limit the opposing muscle is automatically activated to pull the body part back to reduce risk of injury. Without this reflex your elbow would be dislocated the first time you straighten your arm fast (like in punging). It isn’t because just before you reach maximum extension the biceps is activated to slow the arm down and prevent injury. When training we can use the reflex to our advantage. Just before we initiate the positive movement you lower a bit more allowing the weight to stretch the muscles a bit this activates the stretch reflex. As it is activated we start our movement. If you do this than you can use a larger than normal percentage of a muscle. This is because a part of your muscle cannot be reached via normal neuromuscular pathways nut is wired into this reflex mechanism. This allows you to get that extra rep that stresses the muscle just a bit more. Most barbell exercises don’t provide resistance in the starting position but a propely designed machine can.

7 Rep ranges to suit muscular fibre type. All muscles have a unique mixture of both fast and slow twitch fibres. Some people have lots of fast twitch some have more slow twitch. Some have lots of fast in one muscle and slow in another muscle. However most people have a rather balanced mixture of both types in most muscular structures. Muscles with lots of fast twitch fibres need low rep ranges or will suffer overuse atrophy. Slow twitch need high rep ranges to prevent underuse atrophy. Most people have the usual mixture and should do 8-12 reps. This has nothing to do with the kind of training equipment but is nevertheless a very important factor.

To apply this to a practical example I repeat my question what barbell exercise would you use to train the latimus dorsi?

The only exercise that meets all those requirements is the pullover machine as designed by Arthur Jones. All conventional (barbell/bodyweight) exercises expose the resistances to the hands thereby including the much weaker biceps and forearms muscles. Those weak muscles will fail before the lats are trained to their max. All conventional (barbell/bodyweight) exercises are limited range exercises. Chins/pulldown 180° Bent over row 160° Barbell/Dumbbell pullovers 140°(with about 60° of resistance). A proper machine pullover can provide the 300°. Most people have a range of movement in their shoulders of about 240° That quickly increases to 270° when machine pullovers are done properly. Off course Machine pullovers provide resistance in both the starting position (for improving flexibility and induce the stretch reflex) as the finished position (position of full contraction where the entire muscle can be trained). Machine pullover vary the resistance to match the changing strength output of the latimuss dorsi.

When I introduced machine pullover to my training schedule with no other changes my strength in the lats skyrocketed. My bw went up 15lbs in 6 weeks. My lats weren’t very big when I did pulldown, bent over rows etc. But now they are very big. All my training partners (I’ve been through quite a lot since most couldn’t handle the intensity) had extremely good results with the pullover. I recently started training with a mate of my who had some but not much training history. He followed my program with a lot of machines and gained 40 lbs in 4 months. Admitted he’s genetically gifted but still.

That is why I think properly designed machines should be a very important part of any trainings schedule. If however only poorly designed machines are available (such as a rope pulldown machine) it is better to stick to conventional (barbell) exercises. If people ask my for a workout plan and I don’t know there gym I always give them a very basic barbell program. Make no mistake a properly designed and executed barbell program is very hard and will produce extremely good results. It just can be eve better when proper machines are sensible included in the program.


I would like to climb a rope faster so a rope machine is far superior to any machine that doesn't translate to a real world exercise that I use.

As for the women their complete shoulder strength in holding heavy objects over their head through a motion and their flexibility is superior to my own as our skill is equal. My strength and flexibility in that area is limited by only doing machine workouts which cannot possibly ever have all the variables in movement of a barbell, kettle-bell, dumbbell or body-weight motion which inevitably shifts the weight through the x,y,z axis where in real life it would be. Please by all means if you think the women have just a skill advantage hold a barbell over your head (at the very end of each bar by the larger thickness for the plate) and just have someone load plate after plate on it and see if your machine work has prepped you for that kind of stress. no motion or skill involved.


 I just used the wrong terminology with bench, it is a compound lift just not in the vein of lifts like snatch/clean/deadlift etc or bodyweight like chins,hand stand push-ups etc. Hamstring curls certainly are not compound lifts, and most machines (unless you are building some kind of Bode Miller/Rube Goldberg contraption as I have brought up in the past) are not true compound lifts.

you didn't address at all if people can flip a tire, climb a rope or do any strongman type exercises after focusing mainly on machines and not those complex and natural types of training. All the evidence suggests that super 'strong' guys out of a gym fail miserably and this is seen all the time. However it is true that even the pros in such fields will probably take advantage of some machines. You are talking about perfecting the perfect amount of strength through science, but this strength doesn't apply to more realistic activities or is prone to more injury when attempting such then the original criticism from power-lifters/body-weight folks applies quite well to this being ineffective training.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2011, 10:02:09 pm by KD »

Offline HIT_it_RAW

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Re: Today's workout?
« Reply #605 on: May 27, 2011, 02:23:31 am »
If you honestly think that strenght build on a machine wont translate to real time strenght than you and I have a fundamental different opinion of exercise. So I will no longer try to convince you of mine. I believe and have experienced first hand that my strenght build through HIT workouts, using both barbells and machines, can be aplied in real life. I often lift very heavy weight outside the gym for fun to see if iI can. I noticed a very large improvement in performance outside the gym since working out intelegently. I'd love to challenge you to some real life strenght test. to bad we're half the world apart. For now you have to take my word that the 65lbs lean muscle i've gained over the past few year is very capable of doing real life lifts.
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preserve the meat, deliver a baby, nurture the sick and reassure the dying, fight a war … specialization is for insects.”

Offline KD

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Re: Today's workout?
« Reply #606 on: May 27, 2011, 02:52:25 am »
If you honestly think that strenght build on a machine wont translate to real time strenght than you and I have a fundamental different opinion of exercise. So I will no longer try to convince you of mine. I believe and have experienced first hand that my strenght build through HIT workouts, using both barbells and machines, can be aplied in real life. I often lift very heavy weight outside the gym for fun to see if iI can. I noticed a very large improvement in performance outside the gym since working out intelegently. I'd love to challenge you to some real life strenght test. to bad we're half the world apart. For now you have to take my word that the 65lbs lean muscle i've gained over the past few year is very capable of doing real life lifts.


I don't think that strength doesn't translate into ANY usable strength, what is apparent is that working in complex exercises allows you to move to other complex exercises, so it isn't about just learning a skill , which if you are being fair, was your criticism.

dead-lifts, pendlay row, squat, and weighted pullups are sufficient for working lats. rowing machines and weighted rows also represent more natural movements but arn't necessary for a seriously strong back. So that is the answer which I'm sure will get some response that machines are the only way one can work out their back muscles, to which theres plenty of examples of people that only train using deadlift, pullup and perhaps other rows which have a far stronger back for functional use some 'totaling' 2000 lbs for the big 3 lifts. You can't argue that I am pushing some ideology bulllshit where machines can't be better than lifts, but you have not shown at all that working these machines is not stigmatized by not representing true full motion over x,y,z.

Why not just do the lift/hold and see if you can hold the weight overhead in that position? Particularly since I answer your questions and have done basically all the machines you are talking about and have done a sample workout similar to your own. Have you given me results for weighted dips, weighted pullups, rope climb, handstand pushups, bench press or any of the metacons I have posted which involve minimal 'skill'?

Every workout I have posted from CF in a year is in this thread which can be easily emulated. Not that whoever is most fit matters or that I care..particularly since like 20 people at my gym are fitter and stronger than I am am and much more representations of how these movements improved upon what they were doing previously at a 'globo-gym'.

but it would be interesting as this thread certainly lacks a little friendly competition. I don't see why a challenge couldn't be given over the internet. I mean taking into account that i'm 50-70(?) lbs lighter, doing similar weights in probably half the time.

heres an example of something I tried to get people to do before as it requires minimal equipment or expertise.

1 mile run
100 pull ups
200 push ups
300 air squats
1 mile run

or something alittle more lifting heavy

from last july:
For time (135 lbs 95#):
50 Deadlifts
40 Hang Power Cleans
30 Front Squats
20 Push Press/Jerk
10 Overhead Squat (could be nixed and replaced for something else..forgot what I did probably only bar here)

14:30

I would certainly love to do this again and shave some time.

or something alittle more mixed and less complicated

30 Burpees
10 Thrusters (65#) (front squat to push press)
20 Burpees
20 Thrusters
10 Burpees
30 Thrusters

13:38

The point is that no amount of strength you can do with your approach will translate much to holding that weight in that dam position. if you can't prove this then there really is no argument here...particularly since I personally don't care if someone is zapping themselves with electrodes to succeed or what.

 
« Last Edit: May 27, 2011, 04:27:53 am by KD »

Offline KD

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Re: Today's workout?
« Reply #607 on: May 27, 2011, 05:42:49 am »
today, another try at single efforts

flat bench 175 x 8
press 100 x 8
close chins x 15
tricept split rope pull down from the top 75 x 10
dip + 80 lbs x 7
front squat 100 lb  x 12
calf raise 355 x 12
burpees x 12

~8:45
including time taking the weights of bench, putting belt on walking 25 ft with 80 lbs then walking to other station after dips were full etc.. and walking back. burpees were just painful in this order.

the weight room at my new place should be interesting to have everything already set.

I also finished off with some machines separately after resting. standing pulley flies and sitting machine flies. 12x"5" setting on the standing. 225 x 5 on the sitting flies. did foam roll and my new close grip pushup/foam roll thing. back-bridges and more rolling. warmed  up with strait legged bear crawls and the new 'round the world planks.

here is literally just a random person I picked on a crossfit forum looking for a certain workout. Unlike with me, its literally sin for these folks to use machines. there are 0 machines at the gym itself and its generally too expensive to have dual memberships.

http://www.logsitall.com/book.asp?user=832



1500 lifting total and the times (like with the high end folks at my gym) are insane.
"fran' 21-15-9 " reps of: thrusters (95); pullups: 2:26 minutes.
"diane"  21-15-9 reps of:225 pound Deadlift; Handstand push-ups: 3:05
hmm
« Last Edit: May 27, 2011, 05:53:03 am by KD »

Offline HIT_it_RAW

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Re: Today's workout?
« Reply #608 on: May 27, 2011, 08:46:56 pm »
It’s funny that out of all people we're the ones arguing. Our basic training philosophy seems to be very similar. Train as hard as possible as fast as possible. That’s mine anyway.

You still don’t understand what I mean by skill. It’s much more than hat can be observed on the outside. Sure you’re skill may not seem less good than that of someone outlifting you on very technical lifts like snatches. I’ve watch some super slow motion scientific analysis of weightlifting. What those scientists found was that tiny differences in coordination and timing made a huge difference. The ones with slightly worse skill (milliseconds wrong timing) had to compensate by using much more force.

Doing what you now call complex exercises in the whole x-y-z realm requires the same strength as does exercises in a limited plane of movement. The difference is how the muscles work together. When performing a standing press (one of my basic exercises) one needs to balance the weight as well as lift it. The muscles needed for this balancing are also strengthened on machines (good ones anyway). The difference is that those muscles are not being used in the specific harmony used to balance the weight in a standing press. This is another example of what I call skill. When someone who has build strength on a machine does standing presses their initial performance is low because they waste a lot of strength balancing because of limited skill. When that person learns the skill involved in doing those lifts his performance will very quickly increase to match his strength. You might think that he is actually getting stronger but in fact he is merely learning how to apply his strength for that specific action. If you build strength through “complex” exercise and I build the same strength through machine exercise and we would both embark upon a physical activity very far removed from our usual training than we both would have to learn that skill and would appear equally strong(as we are). When we have both mastered that skill equally well than we would still appear equally strong (as we still are) But if I would master that skill better I would appear stronger (but am not).

If you want to be good in doing certain lifts than you have to do those lifts to train your body in using your strength for that lift (skill). I don’t care about doing any special lifts so I just build strength the most efficient way. In my case, due to equipment available, that is a combination of machine and barbell exercise. That way I’m equally well prepared to face everyday activity as you are. I’m just not as good as you in showing of my strength by doing certain lifts.

I don’t have time right now to check all your workouts but what I’ve seen so far clearly demonstrates that you are fit. No doubt about it. You just choose a different path than I did in reaching it.

I did some weighted pull ups/dips today to see how my strength relates to that. At my current bw of 216lbs I did 6 pull-ups with 60 lbs. And 7 dips with the same weight.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2011, 09:04:03 pm by HIT_it_RAW »
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Offline KD

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Re: Today's workout?
« Reply #609 on: May 27, 2011, 10:10:01 pm »
It’s funny that out of all people we're the ones arguing. Our basic training philosophy seems to be very similar. Train as hard as possible as fast as possible. That’s mine anyway.

You still don’t understand what I mean by skill. It’s much more than hat can be observed on the outside. Sure you’re skill may not seem less good than that of someone outlifting you on very technical lifts like snatches. I’ve watch some super slow motion scientific analysis of weightlifting. What those scientists found was that tiny differences in coordination and timing made a huge difference. The ones with slightly worse skill (milliseconds wrong timing) had to compensate by using much more force.

Doing what you now call complex exercises in the whole x-y-z realm requires the same strength as does exercises in a limited plane of movement.


yeah but it doesn't though. try filling a garbage can with some water and trying to raise it over your head to the side keeping your arm strait. You are saying this is not something that years of proper compound lifts wouldn't improve that even a combination of machines could not recreate nevemind a single one?


I'm not trying to take down your philosophy or abilities either. What we are indeed talking about is a very specific point. You are basically saying that you have no need to excel at certain lifts because these lifts serve very specific purposes and that they can be circumvented through proper machines. This is not true.

Certainly you can keep progressing in lifting but the compound lift will always translate back to the machine but even a master who knows the skills inside and out will miss out on strength and eventually flexibility provided by the lift by reverting to a machine.
And this is a silly/unusual example.  'Learning the 'skill' largely opens up those joints and muscles and so forth not addressed by a machine, which for me is really the crucial point. At that point machines might be beneficial for improving certain micro parts of strength, but they won't attack those issues that the lift itself engages with.

When you talk  of snatches or jerks sure these are very difficult routines to master. Even cleans deadlidfts and squats are clearly way more than meets the eye and take learning to use proper form. When you say that people that use tricep machines can't go on to regular dips or rings because they 'lack skill' I think you are abusing that term. And I would say these basic exercises work parts ot the muscle that the machine is NOT engaged with. Of course you can continually increase strength with the machine but this NOT TRANSLATING to rings does not mean you simply don't find rings important as a skill, it means there are various muscles which are never being engaged with the machine. I mean, right?

I did some weighted pull ups/dips today to see how my strength relates to that. At my current bw of 216lbs I did 6 pull-ups with 60 lbs. And 7 dips with the same weight.


nice. certainly being less weight for me is an advantage for these generally as a ratio.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2011, 10:18:26 pm by KD »

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Re: Today's workout?
« Reply #610 on: May 28, 2011, 05:11:20 am »
warmup: spiderman stretches and under the hurdles back and forth.

tried a half version of what I listed above @115

50 Deadlifts
40 Hang Power Cleans
30 Front Squats
20 Push Press/Jerk
10 Overhead Squat

---

couldn't make it with the cleans or presses

25 deadlifts @ 115
8 full power cleans @ 115
15 front squats @115
10 press (reg) @ 100 prefab bar
...
overhead pull downs (!) said 72.5 out of 110 max on both contributing sets of plates X 12
chins x 12
70 lb standing ez curls x 12

total time 6:40

did more deads at that weight and chins, foam roll
« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 05:16:36 am by KD »

Offline HIT_it_RAW

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Re: Today's workout?
« Reply #611 on: May 29, 2011, 12:15:35 am »
yeah but it doesn't though. try filling a garbage can with some water and trying to raise it over your head to the side keeping your arm strait. You are saying this is not something that years of proper compound lifts wouldn't improve that even a combination of machines could not recreate nevemind a single one?


I'm not trying to take down your philosophy or abilities either. What we are indeed talking about is a very specific point. You are basically saying that you have no need to excel at certain lifts because these lifts serve very specific purposes and that they can be circumvented through proper machines. This is not true.

Certainly you can keep progressing in lifting but the compound lift will always translate back to the machine but even a master who knows the skills inside and out will miss out on strength and eventually flexibility provided by the lift by reverting to a machine.
And this is a silly/unusual example.  'Learning the 'skill' largely opens up those joints and muscles and so forth not addressed by a machine, which for me is really the crucial point. At that point machines might be beneficial for improving certain micro parts of strength, but they won't attack those issues that the lift itself engages with.

When you talk  of snatches or jerks sure these are very difficult routines to master. Even cleans deadlidfts and squats are clearly way more than meets the eye and take learning to use proper form. When you say that people that use tricep machines can't go on to regular dips or rings because they 'lack skill' I think you are abusing that term. And I would say these basic exercises work parts ot the muscle that the machine is NOT engaged with. Of course you can continually increase strength with the machine but this NOT TRANSLATING to rings does not mean you simply don't find rings important as a skill, it means there are various muscles which are never being engaged with the machine. I mean, right?

nice. certainly being less weight for me is an advantage for these generally as a ratio.
Off course doing triceps extensions isn't gonna help one do dips. Because a dip involves the anterior deltoid, pectorals, and triceps muscles. Just training the triceps obviously wouldn't b enough. You still seem to think there are only isolation machines. And although there are a lot of those, and some are very valuable there, are also compound machines. Doing machine dips will obviously improve regular dip performance. Doing a combination of machine triceps extensions and presses also would but that wouldn't be very efficient.

Opens up the joints? I've heard some unusual terminology but this one is beyond me. If you're talking about flexibility than I can tell you that there are certain machine exercises that can create flexibility that no other exercise/stretching can do. The pullover is the best example. My range of motion in the shoulder joint now exceeds 240degrees thanx to that machine. This is because the range of movement of the machine is larger than mine. The machine is constantly pulling my limbs into an extreme position thereby improving flexibility as well as allowing me to train harder using the stretch reflex. Try putting both elbows behind your head simultaneously while keeping your spine and head straight. Don't rotate your arms to the side but keep them parallel as in doing pullovers. For me this is real easy.

In the early pullover there was a range of motion of 240degrees see pic. Later that was changed to 290 degrees to be a truly full range exercise even for very flexible people. Also sergio oliva on an early pullover.

Being heavy is indeed a disadvantage. Especially since I have very large legs. I have real trouble finding jeans that fit my upper legs. The ones I do find usually have waistline that can go around the world.
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Offline pioneer

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Re: Today's workout?
« Reply #612 on: June 02, 2011, 06:38:19 am »
Wednesday:

Squat ATG:      275x10
Calf raise:         60x12
Chin:                80x7
Press:             105x8
Row:               185x8
ring Dip:         messed up
Deadlift:        315x6


I started doing ring dips today that were in a crossfit gym I now workout at and they were much harder than my ring setup at home. My rings only hang about 4 feet, whereas the ones in the gym I now workout at hang about 8 feet, which means they require a lot more balance and are wayyy harder. I prob will decrease my weights in dips about 40% and work my way back up from there. I am not about ego at all and personally would rather get the benefit from a real olympic setup with more muscular benefit.
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Offline HIT_it_RAW

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Re: Today's workout?
« Reply #613 on: June 02, 2011, 02:41:01 pm »
Wednesday:

Squat ATG:      275x10
Calf raise:         60x12
Chin:                80x7
Press:             105x8
Row:               185x8
ring Dip:         messed up
Deadlift:        315x6


I started doing ring dips today that were in a crossfit gym I now workout at and they were much harder than my ring setup at home. My rings only hang about 4 feet, whereas the ones in the gym I now workout at hang about 8 feet, which means they require a lot more balance and are wayyy harder. I prob will decrease my weights in dips about 40% and work my way back up from there. I am not about ego at all and personally would rather get the benefit from a real olympic setup with more muscular benefit.
nice workout man! Another factor in the dips may be that you did 8 presses this time. This might have exhausted the triceps and pecs a bit more than you are used to.Making good progress keep it up!
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Offline pioneer

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Re: Today's workout?
« Reply #614 on: June 02, 2011, 10:33:47 pm »
nice workout man! Another factor in the dips may be that you did 8 presses this time. This might have exhausted the triceps and pecs a bit more than you are used to.Making good progress keep it up!

True man, but its for sure that the rings that hang further are wayyy harder. It kind of makes me excited because now I get to work with a more challenging set of rings, which makes the exercise harder and better for muscle and building even strength and size in the triceps and pecs/shoulders. Rings get all of the stabilizers as well.
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Offline Barban

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Re: Today's workout?
« Reply #615 on: June 06, 2011, 05:20:01 pm »
*Warm up. Start off with 5 to 10 minutes of walking, light jogging, jumping jacks or jumping rope. Then perform the following series of exercises all the way through and, if you’re up for more, repeat two to three times.
 
*Push-up combo. Do 10 push-ups with your hands on a wall or tree, then 10 with your hands on a bench, then 10 with your hands on the ground.
 
*Jumping jacks or jump rope. Go for 1 minute.
 
*Walking lunges. Start standing tall and then lunge forward with your right leg until your thigh is parallel to the ground. Bring your left leg up as you stand tall and then repeat on the opposite leg. Do 10 reps with each leg.
 
*Planks. Rest your forearms on the ground (do this up on your hands if it’s too hard) and lift up on your toes so that your body is parallel to the ground. Elevate one leg up behind you for 30 seconds, then switch legs for another 30 seconds.
 
*Mountain climbers. Crouch down with your hands on the ground in front of you. Extend one leg back and place one knee in toward the chest, then quickly switch. Repeat for 10 reps each side.
 
*Standing side crunches. Stand with your hands clasped behind your head, elbows pointing out to the sides. Bring your left knee up and your left elbow down so that they meet at waist level. Return to the starting position and quickly repeat on the right side. Alternate for a total of 20 reps.
 
*Jogging, running, jumping jacks or jump rope. Go for 1 minutes.
 
*Sitting V-crunches. Sit on the edge of a bench and grab the back of the seat with both hands. Lean back at a 45-degree angle and extend your legs out in front of you. Then bring your knees into the chest for 20 reps. (No bench? Start by sitting on the ground and placing your hands behind your butt.)
 
*Power walking, jogging, running, jumping jacks or jump rope. Go for 1 minutes. *Cool down. Walk slowly for 5 minutes. Then stretch your entire body. Place an emphasis on calm yoga-style breathing while you enjoy being outside!


From: http://www.paleodietbest.com/exercises/outdoor-exercises-for-summer/

Offline SkinnyDevil

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Re: Today's workout?
« Reply #616 on: June 06, 2011, 11:41:22 pm »
Monday (June 6):

50 pull-ups
50 chin-ups
200 squats
550 calf raises
3 rounds on the heavy bag


Feelin' good.....
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Offline HIT_it_RAW

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Re: Today's workout?
« Reply #617 on: June 06, 2011, 11:55:14 pm »
Monday (June 6):

50 pull-ups
50 chin-ups
200 squats
550 calf raises
3 rounds on the heavy bag


Feelin' good.....
I almost thought you had given up exercising  ;D
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Offline achillezzz

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Re: Today's workout?
« Reply #618 on: June 07, 2011, 04:03:21 am »
I almost thought you had given up exercising  ;D

word lol

But he loves it and he also knows that he is not going to get any stronger but he still loves it so he is happy  ;)

Offline HIT_it_RAW

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Re: Today's workout?
« Reply #619 on: June 07, 2011, 04:36:06 am »
word lol

But he loves it and he also knows that he is not going to get any stronger but he still loves it so he is happy  ;)
I ment it has been a while since he has posted.
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Re: Today's workout?
« Reply #620 on: June 07, 2011, 07:43:23 pm »
Hahaha!!! Yeah, it's been a couple of weeks or more. Been CRAZY busy lately, plus got run down and cut my workouts back a bit.

Still crazy busy, but feeling better.

Trying to get to a gym across town so I can add in some heavy resistance work......get a bit stronger!
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Re: Today's workout?
« Reply #621 on: June 08, 2011, 10:56:12 pm »
Wednesday:

TG warm-up
Light weight
3 rounds heavy bag
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Re: Today's workout?
« Reply #622 on: June 09, 2011, 12:48:20 am »
Hahaha!!! Yeah, it's been a couple of weeks or more. Been CRAZY busy lately, plus got run down and cut my workouts back a bit.

Still crazy busy, but feeling better.

Trying to get to a gym across town so I can add in some heavy resistance work......get a bit stronger!

Peer pressure xD

Offline pioneer

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Re: Today's workout?
« Reply #623 on: June 09, 2011, 02:21:52 am »
Wed:
Squat ATG:          285x10
Calf Raise:           60  x16
Chin:                   80  x7
Press:                 110 x8
Row:                   195x6
REAL Ring Dip       45x7
Deadlift               325x1

Total duration= 27 minutes
Today's workout was NUTS!!! The first set of ATG squats killed me and I almost failed on the tenth. Then at the end of the workout, my legs and back was so fatigued I could only deadlift for 1 rep with good form.

Notes: real ring dips are much harder and take much more balance. I felt the triceps fatigue a lot quicker on these. I will try to work my way up to my previous weights when I was doing ring dips with half the hang length. My bent rows are getting really sloppy and I am thinking of lowering the weight like 40 lbs and just focusing on form and less momentum. Other than those lifts, everything else is in good form.
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Re: Today's workout?
« Reply #624 on: June 09, 2011, 03:34:26 am »
Wed:
Squat ATG:          285x10
Calf Raise:           60  x16
Chin:                   80  x7
Press:                 110 x8
Row:                   195x6
REAL Ring Dip       45x7
Deadlift               325x1

Total duration= 27 minutes
Today's workout was NUTS!!! The first set of ATG squats killed me and I almost failed on the tenth. Then at the end of the workout, my legs and back was so fatigued I could only deadlift for 1 rep with good form.

Notes: real ring dips are much harder and take much more balance. I felt the triceps fatigue a lot quicker on these. I will try to work my way up to my previous weights when I was doing ring dips with half the hang length. My bent rows are getting really sloppy and I am thinking of lowering the weight like 40 lbs and just focusing on form and less momentum. Other than those lifts, everything else is in good form.
I know those workouts man. You give so much on the first 7 exercises that the deadlift just isn't possible anymore. Very good means the intensity was very high! You are making good progress man. Nice to see that the presses are going up fast on the new rep ranges. If you wouldn't have lowered those you would still be doing 3-4 reps with the same weight. You're gonna be big! Bw gone up much yet?
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