Author Topic: Breaking down cellulose?  (Read 11499 times)

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Offline King Salmon

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Breaking down cellulose?
« on: July 15, 2010, 05:13:10 am »
I was reading on Bee's website about eating plant foods.She says that enzymes are "locked" in the cellulose so that even if you juice the plants, you don't get the enzymes in the juice.This is because juicing doesn't break down cellulose.She says there are only two ways to break down cellulose 1.cooking 2. fermenting.So that if you eat plant foods raw it will be hard to break down.
Now,I thought the whole idea of juicing was to access the enzymes.What's the deal?
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Offline Nation

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Re: Breaking down cellulose?
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2010, 05:30:47 am »
I used to read her yahoo group and she is the most anti-raw 'guru' i've seen. IIRC, she either discourages people from eating raw meat, or she thinks eating it raw has no benefits over cooked.

Offline kurite

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Re: Breaking down cellulose?
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2010, 06:38:13 am »
I know one reason is its apparently easier to digest. It also tastes better.
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Offline King Salmon

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Re: Breaking down cellulose?
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2010, 08:44:12 am »
Nation,hmm that's interesting but still.....does juicing make enzymes available to the body?Where did she get the info that it doesn't?Unless she made it up,but that doesn't sound right.

Of course there's no point in juicing meats,raw is fine as it is for digeston,but I like a few plant food juices once in a while.I thought juicing broke down celulose to make the enzymes available??
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Breaking down cellulose?
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2010, 04:15:55 pm »
It sounds like nonsense re enzymes mention.

On the rawpaleodiet yahoo group someone once made very serious allegations about a "Bee Wilder". If this is the same "Bee" person, steer well clear of anything she says.
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Offline King Salmon

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Re: Breaking down cellulose?
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2010, 11:42:29 pm »
Thanks Tyler,So if I eat a piece of celery(which is pretty fibrous) am I accessing the enzymes through chewing/digestion? Or,is there a benefit to juicing?
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Offline kurite

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Re: Breaking down cellulose?
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2010, 11:17:33 am »
Thanks Tyler,So if I eat a piece of celery(which is pretty fibrous) am I accessing the enzymes through chewing/digestion? Or,is there a benefit to juicing?
I wouldn't, Im not sure if it allows access to nutrients locked inside of fiber but I know it concentrates anti-nutrients.
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Offline Michael

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Re: Breaking down cellulose?
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2010, 01:26:09 am »
It sounds like nonsense re enzymes mention.

On the rawpaleodiet yahoo group someone once made very serious allegations about a "Bee Wilder". If this is the same "Bee" person, steer well clear of anything she says.

Hi Geoff,

I'm back to the forum after a sustained absence due to living in a new baby abyss for the last 6 months or so (he's now 14 months old!).  I hope all is good with you.

I was just wondering about the allegations you mentioned about Bee Wilder.  Could you elaborate a little on these?  I've always found her Yahoo Group quite informative and she seems to know much of the stuff most of us 'old timers' here have learned over the years.  I wouldn't agree with everything she preaches but her advice seems quite well-rounded.  She appears to be more Weston Price oriented than RPD - and I know you have strong issues with WP - but she seems dedicated in helping alot of people improve their health.

I'm curious as to what these allegations may have entailed.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Breaking down cellulose?
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2010, 10:22:15 pm »
I can only state that 1 woman on the rpd yahoo group made a serious allegation but she didn't go into too many specifics. I am afraid you'd have to search for the post as it was made some time back.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Michael

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Re: Breaking down cellulose?
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2010, 04:51:02 am »
Oh ok, thanks.  I've searched the rpd forum but can find no posts relating to Bee Wilder so I guess it will remain a mystery.
1. When offered something that is too good to be true. It is.
2. Greed and fear are poor states of mind in which to make decisions; like shopping at the supermarket when you are hungry.
3. Exponential growth is mathematically unsustainable.

Offline KD

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Re: Breaking down cellulose?
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2010, 05:52:55 am »
the only process known to potentially concentrate nutrients is applied heat through drying or direct cooking, or 'strange' processes of microwave or something akin to a nuclear reaction. The only possible way a juice extractor can concentrate nutrients is by nature of consuming 'more than possible one can eat'. Juice from an entire bundle of cellery would yield the same nutrients and 'anti-nutrients' done in nature by animals known as 'wadging' or expelling fiber over a period of time, the only differnce would be the speed and quantiy which enters the blood stream. So its impossible to create anti-nutients through a juice extractor that are not already there. In fact the argument of pro-cooks is right in that many of these nutrients actually stay in the fiber. Literally, the high end models just crush the juice from the plant matter without even the slightlesst heat through centrifuge.

Bee Wilder I believe has excellent information for folks who probably never have any intentions of following a RPD. At the same time both her views of raw meat and raw veg she seems to preach contary to my experience. I do believe she is right in that you will not break down the cell wall of plants by jucing, but abstaining from cooked foods has its benefits also. The main assets for jucing on a RAF diet seem to be the high quality structured water it provides (without the sugars of hydrating fruits that feed fungi and often not cells), and getting any missing nutrients that might not be present in a modern diet. The main reason seems more to be in minerals and not vitamins. It might have negatives (particularly gut related), but at the end of the day these are not in any way offset by eating whole raw veg, quite the opposite.

A simple glance at nature shows that many animals expell fiber and suck juice from plants, whether this juice is beneficial or natural for humans is debateable but it has little bearing on the process itself.

The likelyhood is, is that eating uncontaminated pasutured or wild animals makes for less need of mineral and nutrients directly from plants. If not, for fiberous veg and herbs: juice or wadge/expell from the mouth, crucivores and other 'vegetables': steam if eaten, and otherwise abstain from plant fiber entirely while injesting raw meats regularly as this can lead to an increased risk of other SWD type criticism of eating raw meat as well as transit issues.

Offline King Salmon

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Re: Breaking down cellulose?
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2010, 06:06:20 am »
KD,are you saying that we're better off eating all animal foods rather than mess around with plants?In other words,if we cook plants we have access to nutrients,but run into problems due to cooking-and if we eat plants raw we don't have access to nutrients?So why bother with plants?

Am I getting that right?Thanks
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Offline KD

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Re: Breaking down cellulose?
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2010, 11:52:50 pm »
not exactly. I would say that I believe if one was to include green vegetable matter in an otherwise RAF diet, I would highly consider 'less natural' methods as a more conducive alternative for our systems. It might be true that these compounds in general are not good for humans, but I lean towards the possibility that because of our bodies' inherited inefficiencies or defficincies in foods that they can be of value.

Either way I wouldn't mess around with a lot of raw unprocessed veg under the asumption that it was the more 'natural' raw and unprocessed solution as it ignores various phisiological factors. I think Daniel Vitalis (and others) has some great info on the historical importance of 'salad dressings' and lacto-fermentation to make these foods more edible raw.

I've yet to really apply these into my routine but at the end of the day I can't rule out that even some cooked or fermented foods might be of value to others if not myself at some point. I'm not a ZC eater, so if I was to have cooked meat, I would probably eat it with steamed and raw fermented plants, perhaps with raw salad greens/herbs with ACV. I eat seaweeds with seafoods on occasion. I don't have a juicer running now but its always worked wonders in my body on RAF or otherwise. I'm somewhat of a medical miracle in that I had extreme advanced avascular necrosis (rotting in hip joints) which I avoided forcefully recommended hip surgery at a young age. I was doing dandelion juices at the time and including no RAF. Its hard to delinieate this kind of thing to what factors what but lets just say its incredibly rare to regrow bone at that level. My bones, jaw teeth etc..feel and look good on mostly animal foods, but if I had a functioning quality juicer and better income I'd probably be back doing it at least once a day a few times a week. If anything I drink way too much polluted cooked water w/o. I would certinaly choose it over quanties of organic fresh whole fruits, which for me at least feed all kinds of problems, and I think long term are probably bad for anyone is excess in regards to tissue health.

I live in a fairly grey boxed in area, but if I had access I would be picking herbs and jucing them in my mouth or eatings small quanities with food. I've never got into the whole tea thing but this is also something I might consider.

Some people don't jive with the whole idea of 'supplementation' though even natural processes, fine, yet oddly the same people are found rendering, drying, grinding, and freezing or even cooking their foods which are not bad per se but respectively alter through physical and even chemical processes. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Either plants have toxic compounds or they don't, and every form of processing has its tradeoffs in +/- in nurition, toxicity, and convenience.

Offline Michael

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Re: Breaking down cellulose?
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2010, 05:08:42 am »
You make some good points there KD many of which I agree with.  Congratulations on overcoming your avascular necrosis too!

Personally, I eat very little in the way of plant matter now - just a few garlic and onion flavourings.  It appears that the less plant matter I eat the better I feel which doesn't surprise me with the issues of indigestible cellulose walls and anti-nutrients.  But, when I first started eating RAF 10 years ago by way of my own version of the primal diet I was feeling great on regular homemade vegetable juices.

I think if one truly wants to include plant matter in the diet it's probably best in order of preference as juiced, fermented, cooked, raw.  Of course, this may vary somewhat depending on the individual.  I am in the process of making a batch of low carb, nightshade-free kimchi which I haven't made in a long time so I will see how I feel after including this high quality fermented vegetable dish.
1. When offered something that is too good to be true. It is.
2. Greed and fear are poor states of mind in which to make decisions; like shopping at the supermarket when you are hungry.
3. Exponential growth is mathematically unsustainable.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Breaking down cellulose?
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2010, 04:21:14 pm »
Most would disagree and view raw plants as being far better than cooked plants. I am of course only referring to those plants which are both tasty and edible when raw, not potatoes or broccoli etc.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Michael

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Re: Breaking down cellulose?
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2010, 07:42:52 am »
This is a subject I want to research a little more thoroughly as my thoughts, really, at this point are just my own.  You may well be right Tyler.  I've replied on this subject to you in another thread too, but, what are your thoughts on the breaking down of cellulose walls and how does this relate to the plants you speak of as being better eaten raw?  Do you have links to any studies?

1. When offered something that is too good to be true. It is.
2. Greed and fear are poor states of mind in which to make decisions; like shopping at the supermarket when you are hungry.
3. Exponential growth is mathematically unsustainable.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Breaking down cellulose?
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2010, 05:11:51 pm »
I simply mean that the amounts of antinutrients in veg(edible when raw, that is) are too small to be noticeable unless only raw veg/fruit is eaten. Besides, raw veg is not too palatable so solid raw veg will in natural settings not be eaten in such vast amounts as to be harmful. More to the point, cooking creates heat-created toxins so that would counteract any benefits re breaking down the cell-walls - besides, cooking does especial harm to things like vitamin C levels etc.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Lurch 51

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Re: Breaking down cellulose?
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2012, 09:55:23 pm »
Oh ok, thanks.  I've searched the rpd forum but can find no posts relating to Bee Wilder so I guess it will remain a mystery.

I've been reading on her site a lot lately. A lot of what she says makes good sense but some of it I do not agree with. For one thing I disagree with, she says we should all drink tap water, filtered by a Brita or Pur water filter. She says "don't worry about fluoride in tap water". This is the first time I've ever seen anyone recommended filtered tap water over RO water.

 

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