Are cooked vegetables all that bad?

[goodsamaritan]

I haven't explored this topic yet.
What I do know is there are some veggies I can eat raw.
And that there are some veggies that can only be eaten when cooked.

So for those vegetables that can only be eaten cooked.  Are they bad for your health?
Any research, opinions welcome.

[TylerDurden]

Those vegetables that cannot be eaten raw invariably contain high levels of antinutrients which are partly what makes them unpalatable. I've heard of people who've encountered serious health-problems from eating 100% raw-potato diets for example.

[SkinnyDevil]

I eat cooked only what can be eaten raw (though in honesty, I rarely ever eat a vegetable that is cooked at all).

My question is this: Why cook veggies at all?

[Michael]

My question is this: Why cook veggies at all?

Besides the usual anti-nutrient matter such as oxalates etc, isn't part of the reason vegetables are cooked due to the process breaking down the cellulose walls which are indigestible to humans?  As I vaguely recall, we lack the cellulase enzyme meaning most vegetables consumed raw seemingly just pass on through with little of the vitamins and minerals being available.  WAPF, I think, have some good points on this recommending eating vegetables such as broccoli cooked and served with fats to help the absorption of the newly available minerals.  Perhaps the fact that such dishes taste delicious compared to the wholly unappetising thought of munching raw broccoli is testament to such wisdom.

However, better does not necessarily mean good and we're probably better off without them at all!

[King Salmon]

Cooking should only be used to expand one's diet in case of lack of other foods.

For example,if you haven't eaten in a while and can't find animal foods or plant matter that can be eaten raw,then as a last resort you can cook up some potatoes,broccoli...etc.This would keep you alive until you find some better suited foods.

How bad are cooked potatoes,broccoli,cauliflower...etc?I don't know.But I remember I used to love baked potatoes with butter

Tyler's comment addressed the harm in raw potatoes but that doesn't mean cooked potatoes would be as bad.Maybe someone else has more details on this?

[TylerDurden]

The point is that cooking produces heat-created toxins so the benefit of the extra nutrients derived from cooking some plant foods would be negated.

Besides, I have derived plenty of nourishment in the past from raw seaweed, raw samphire, raw carrots, raw radishes and similiar vegetables. As long as I don't rely on them as 100% of my diet, I'm fine.

[goodsamaritan]

Found this in Aajonus' book, page 228 of We Want to Live:

ANGINA PECTORIS is the cramping of muscles in or around the
heart. Most always, the cramps are a natural process by which the body
tries to increase circulation and remove toxins and hardened fat from
muscles and arteries. A lack of enzyme-mutations for digesting,
assimilating and utilizing cooked green foods and mostly vegetable oils
are responsible for most hardening of the arteries that causes heart
muscle spasms. Avoiding cooked green foods and vegetable oils stops
the accumulations.

  Eating raw green foods (salads) with a fat-free dressing as the last
meal of the day helps remove the resins and residues that cause this
type of hardening of the arteries.

[SkinnyDevil]

...Perhaps the fact that such dishes taste delicious compared to the wholly unappetising thought of munching raw broccoli is testament to such wisdom...

Matter of taste (pardon the pun). I much prefer raw broccoli to cooked (even lightly steamed).

I once had a discussion with a raw vegan who said that steak sauce sales were a testament to the fact that meat doesn't taste good alone (and thus is not natural for humans to eat). I countered that salad dressing sales should thus be viewed as a testament to the unhealthiness of veggies, not to mention the use of salt & sugar on raw fruit.

He thus concluded that living on sunshine and fresh air was the way of humans. I wished him all the luck with such an approach, then ate salad & sashimi....

[King Salmon]

Of course common steak has no flavor,its cooked Raw beef has a really good flavor. Why do you think "Steak Tartare" or "Carpaccio" are delicacies?

Ever hear of salad as a delicacy? No......it's just a damn appetizer at best.

Now go back and tell that Breatharian to go eat some real food(raw meat)!

[Michael]

Matter of taste (pardon the pun). I much prefer raw broccoli to cooked (even lightly steamed).

I once had a discussion with a raw vegan who said that steak sauce sales were a testament to the fact that meat doesn't taste good alone (and thus is not natural for humans to eat). I countered that salad dressing sales should thus be viewed as a testament to the unhealthiness of veggies, not to mention the use of salt & sugar on raw fruit.

He thus concluded that living on sunshine and fresh air was the way of humans. I wished him all the luck with such an approach, then ate salad & sashimi....

Good luck with the raw broccoli SD!  I suppose you're right and it's really just a matter of taste which is dependent on many factors.
Same for the meat and salad too I guess.  To be honest, I used to use the same argument as your vegan friend in my 8 years of vegetarianism.  After 10 years of raw meats I'm not sure I've yet acquired a taste for raw meat alone and still find myself using celtic salt, pepper, garlic, herbs etc.  I have been reducing this recently so live in hope.

Of course, it's a ridiculous and laughable notion but, if I'm honest again, I do love the idea of living on sunshine and fresh air myself.  I once had high hopes for the supposed achievements of Hira Ratan Manek and his 411 day sungazing fast!

The point is that cooking produces heat-created toxins so the benefit of the extra nutrients derived from cooking some plant foods would be negated.

Besides, I have derived plenty of nourishment in the past from raw seaweed, raw samphire, raw carrots, raw radishes and similiar vegetables. As long as I don't rely on them as 100% of my diet, I'm fine.

With much of the heat-created toxins revolving around protein and carbohydrate, Tyler, and without disputing your claim - what are the heat-created toxins from plant foods such as broccoli, greens, carrots etc?  Are they really that damaging?  Also, do you have information to debunk the cellulose wall problem with regard to eating the raw carrots, seaweed etc?

[goodsamaritan]

Sorry to hear about your taste problems Michael.
I suggest you just stop all condiments completely.
Eat when hungry.

I've adjusted very well and even dream about raw meats I havent had in a long while.
I don't miss condiments at all.

I had a good sized salad in a meeting, tasted pretty good.  I guess salads taste good if I just eat them once a month.

[Michael]

Thanks gs.  I'm not sure it's a problem.  At least, my taste buds don't think so!! 

But, yes I do recognise that it's probably not ideal and am reducing my reliance on condiments day by day.

[raw-al]

Interesting thread,
SD I liked the discussion with your friend re steak sauce and salad sauce. LOL
Michael,
My girlfriend and I are doing the HRM sungazing bit. We are past the 45 minutes back to 15 minutes since around April. I like the bare earth walking although I don't have the time to do it. My GF's eyes were vastly improved at her checkout last February and mine have improved also. Also we eat quite a bit less. However I am not really holding out hope of becoming inediate. I met HRM in Toronto. He is more controversial that AV.

Tyler,
Here is an excerpt from a book called "The Ayurvedic Cookbook" by Amadea Morningstar (nutritionist) and Urmila Desai;
"Potatoes are from a group of plants called nightshades including tomato, white potato, eggplant, peppers and tobacco. They concentrate poisonous alkaloids in various parts of their anatomy, particularly their leaves. This is why chewing on a potato or tomato leave is never recommended. When the potato was first discovered in North America and sent back to Queen Elizabeth the first for her consumption, her chef unfortunately erred and served her the leaf and stem and threw out the root! Elizabeth was unimpressed."

If the potato has a green shade on it's skin, chuck it or at the least generously cut out that section as it is poisonous. The toxic alkaloids solanine and chaconine accumulate close to the surface. Do not let them sit in a light place or a very cold or very warm place. Cool dark is best.

[TylerDurden]

With much of the heat-created toxins revolving around protein and carbohydrate, Tyler, and without disputing your claim - what are the heat-created toxins from plant foods such as broccoli, greens, carrots etc?  Are they really that damaging?  Also, do you have information to debunk the cellulose wall problem with regard to eating the raw carrots, seaweed etc?

Plant foods produce much the same sort of heat-created toxins as when cooking animal foods(ie advanced glycation end products/AGEs and so on. No HCAs I think(heterocyclic amines; as those are only produced when cooking meats).

The difference is that fewer heat-created toxins are produced when cooking plant foods as opposed to cooking animal foods. But they are still effective. And there is the question of nutrient-loss from cooking:- 
http://nutritiondata.self.com/topics/processing

Vitamin C, for example, is very easily destroyed by heat. I have no exact figures that I can think of right now re cellulose-walls as food-science is so new, but I suspect that any benefits from increased nutrients from breaking down the cell-walls are counteracted by the loss of nutrients caused by cooking(I'll have to do research on this but I suspect that nutrient-loss from plant foods from cooking is much greater than with animal foods as food-scientists routinely recommend only steaming or lightly boiling plant foods in order to get the best value from them re nutrients) . When one adds in the fact that heat-created toxins are added by cooking, one finds that there is a net disadvantage to cooking plant foods.

[raw-al]

Vitamin C, for example, is very easily destroyed by heat. I have no exact figures that I can think of right now re cellulose-walls as food-science is so new,

Amla or Indian gooseberry is an exception to that. The vitamin c in it does not break down and thus retains it's potency even when cooked or stored.

[SkinnyDevil]

Yeah, I got a laugh out of it, too.

I think humans can live on much more sunshine & fresh air than we do (and need less food than we eat), but there's nothing like a big salad, a piece of fruit, and a slab of meat. YUM!

[Wolf]

I am interested to know this as well, though I prefer to avoid all vegetables possible and have always hated them, and hated them worse when steamed.  However, surprisingly there is one vegetable that I do actually really enjoy the taste of, and that is pure water grown mung bean sprouts.  I actually even like to eat them best steamed and soaked in soy sauce, however as that isn't exactly paleo, then I've been avoiding that by eating them raw when we have them, but I am curious to know exactly how good is it for you to eat bean sprouts, and how much worse it is to eat them steamed, and how much even worse it is to eat them steamed and soaked in soy sauce..

[TylerDurden]

I would avoid beans as they're not palaeo, anyway, even sprouted.

[raw-al]

I am interested to know this as well, though I prefer to avoid all vegetables possible and have always hated them, and hated them worse when steamed.  However, surprisingly there is one vegetable that I do actually really enjoy the taste of, and that is pure water grown mung bean sprouts.  I actually even like to eat them best steamed and soaked in soy sauce, however as that isn't exactly paleo, then I've been avoiding that by eating them raw when we have them, but I am curious to know exactly how good is it for you to eat bean sprouts, and how much worse it is to eat them steamed, and how much even worse it is to eat them steamed and soaked in soy sauce..

From a strictly RPD point of view I would probably be inclined to avoid them. However if you like them, I would say go for it. Problems with them would be associated with gas and bloating. The soy sauce although tasty might be problematic in the long run due to the heavy salting and the ingredient soy in it, which has been covered in this forum recently.

[SkinnyDevil]

I don't eat beans (aside from the rare occasion when I'll have a taste of the raw hummus I make for my wife), but I do eat bean sprouts in salads sometimes.

Again, their "paleo-ness" depends largely upon how you define paleo, and there is no universally accepted definition (though there are some general guidelines).

Is it natural? Sure. Did cavemen eat bean sprouts? Probably not, but who knows.

But soy sauce? Absolutely not. But is soy sauce tasty? Sure. If you must eat soy sauce, try to do so sparingly (only as a treat) there are several brands that offer a wheat-free, low-sodium version. I'd definitely choose that (and do, when they urge strikes me for some soy sauce on my sashimi or tataki).

[Wolf]

The only beans I ever liked were refried beans, which, if I'm not mistaken, are swimming in lard?  Which is probably why I liked them so much, more for the lard fat than the actual bean.  Oh man, and I used to make fried burritos when I lived with my mom who had a frier, mixing a whole bunch of cheese in with some refried beans wrapped up in a flour tortilla and fry it up, yummy.

uhm, but yeah, as for the bean sprouts, i can easily eat them raw, I usually just bring a bag of them up to my room and munch on them like SADers munch on chips.  I just preferred them steamed and swimming in soy sauce, though I know soy is bad with the phytoestrogen or whatever in it, but I read somewhere that it was eliminated when soy is traditionally fermented into soy sauce.  Not that the soy sauce I have is probably even close, since I've got that commercial kikkoman stuff, and the salt in it is what makes it so good.  >~>;

[raw-al]

The only beans I ever liked were refried beans, which, if I'm not mistaken, are swimming in lard?  Which is probably why I liked them so much, more for the lard fat than the actual bean.  Oh man, and I used to make fried burritos when I lived with my mom who had a frier, mixing a whole bunch of cheese in with some refried beans wrapped up in a flour tortilla and fry it up, yummy.

uhm, but yeah, as for the bean sprouts, i can easily eat them raw, I usually just bring a bag of them up to my room and munch on them like SADers munch on chips.  I just preferred them steamed and swimming in soy sauce, though I know soy is bad with the phytoestrogen or whatever in it, but I read somewhere that it was eliminated when soy is traditionally fermented into soy sauce.  Not that the soy sauce I have is probably even close, since I've got that commercial kikkoman stuff, and the salt in it is what makes it so good.  >~>;

LOL Reminds me of the song from long ago about the health food, vegetarian, bean sproutin, tofu eatin guy who would wait for everyone to go to bed and then he would sneak down to the kitchen dig to the back of the fridge and have a Fruit Loops, Cherry Blossum, Twinkies etc. fest, and wash it down with Doctor Pepper.

[Wolf]

LOL Reminds me of the song from long ago about the health food, vegetarian, bean sproutin, tofu eatin guy who would wait for everyone to go to bed and then he would sneak down to the kitchen dig to the back of the fridge and have a Fruit Loops, Cherry Blossum, Twinkies etc. fest, and wash it down with Doctor Pepper.

LOL, omigosh I think I remember that song.. was it junk food junkie?

[Michael]

Plant foods produce much the same sort of heat-created toxins as when cooking animal foods(ie advanced glycation end products/AGEs and so on. No HCAs I think(heterocyclic amines; as those are only produced when cooking meats).

Could you be a little more specific Tyler as I think it's important for us all to understand exactly what the impact is on this issue.  I know you've researched the effects of cooking to a great extent so was hoping for some detailed information.  I'm not so sure AGEs are an issue where cooked vegetables are concerned as, I thought, these were formed only by the heating of fats and sugars (neither of which are present in vegetables to any great extent).

And there is the question of nutrient-loss from cooking

But, with the issue of being unable to break down the cellulose wall, I would suspect the nutrients available even after this loss exceed those available without breaking down the cellulose wall?  I look forward to reading your findings on your further research.

Of course, I'm not suggesting or recommending eating cooked plant foods and certainly don't eat them myself.  But, I do wonder for those that DO eat them - are they more beneficial/less harmful cooked?

[TylerDurden]

I previously pointed out a nutrition-loss chart which showed rather massive losses of certain vital vitamins etc. after cooking. Even the breaking down of the cell-walls would not affect this  as the heating-process would also lead to massive nutrient-losses  of those same vitamins within those cell-walls, especially after the cell-walls got broken up.

Also as I explained before, AGEs are formed either via oxidation of fats via cooking or by sugars altering proteins via cooking. Plant foods contain proteins. It is known that AGEs are formed in smaller amounts in plants by comparison to animal foods, and that may be because some vegetables(specifically the green  leafy kind not the rest) have less amounts of sugars in them. ON the other hand, fruits would be much higher in AGEs but are so rarely cooked that they aren't an issue.

So we have:- substantial losses of key vitamins via cooking; loss of enzymes re digestion; addition of some heat-created toxins. With raw plants, we have a reduction in the size of nutrients due to some being locked up in the cell-walls; enzymes for digestion and no heat-created toxins at all.

Having had personal experiences of cooked vegan diets and raw vegan diets, and having come across others' prior raw vegan experiences, I can safely state that a` raw vegan lifestyle is far healthier and produces some rather good, initial results, whereas a cooked vegan diet for me was merely "less worse" than eating cooked animal foods.