Author Topic: MMA vs Boxing and Fighting Without Influence of Modern Sports  (Read 11634 times)

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Offline ezekiel

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MMA vs Boxing and Fighting Without Influence of Modern Sports
« on: August 30, 2010, 04:34:55 am »
The UFC (Ultimate Fighting Championship) put on a fight yesterday between James Toney (pro boxer) and Randy Couture (pro mixed martial artist). Both men in their 40's and very successful in their respected sports.

They made it as boxing vs mma. Couture (mma fighter) took down Toney (boxer) and submitted him within 4min (Couture took the wise route and didn't risk trading punches with a pro boxer).

Out wrestling your opponent seems to be the most popular (and most dominant) tactic in a sport where you can do almost anything.

In a prehistoric battle with our ancestors (no weapons), what do you think they would do to kill or beat their opponent?
I have a feeling if they could they would pick up a rock or stick. But with no weapons, I have a feeling they would eventually be tussling around.

Reason why I say our ancestors, is because, they never watched boxing, wrestling etc and wouldn't try to mimic certain techniques they prob wouldn't actually do naturally.


What do you think? How would someone fight without influence of modern sports and martial arts?






« Last Edit: August 30, 2010, 04:41:31 am by Sully »

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Re: MMA vs Boxing and Fighting Without Influence of Modern Sports
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2010, 04:57:06 am »
It would definitely go right into grappling and then quickly to the mat. I'd wager it'd end with a broken arm.
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Offline ezekiel

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Re: MMA vs Boxing and Fighting Without Influence of Modern Sports
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2010, 05:06:08 am »
With my current knowledge in a fight to the death. I would take them down immediately and choke or pound their vitals (neck etc.) Elbow would be the most devastating blow I could deliver. My I would bite too if I had too.

I would do it as safe and quick as possible. Stomps to the head spine and neck too. Maybe to finish it off.



Sounds gruesome, but hey..... I said a fight to the death.

Offline ezekiel

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Re: MMA vs Boxing and Fighting Without Influence of Modern Sports
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2010, 05:16:30 am »
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/4xVH_d6Sub0?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param>

go to 1:05 in mixed martila artist get in a real fight, interesting

the other fights seem to be influenced by boxing, but some eventually go to tussling around

Offline ezekiel

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Re: MMA vs Boxing and Fighting Without Influence of Modern Sports
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2010, 05:23:57 am »
It would definitely go right into grappling and then quickly to the mat. I'd wager it'd end with a broken arm.
haha, armbar?

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Re: MMA vs Boxing and Fighting Without Influence of Modern Sports
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2010, 06:07:57 am »
haha, armbar?
I doubt it. At least not a classic armbar. It's not a position one would get into when truly fighting unless one knew it beforehand IMO. I'm thinking just a hell of a lot of torque and hyperextension of the opponents elbow.
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Offline ezekiel

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Re: MMA vs Boxing and Fighting Without Influence of Modern Sports
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2010, 06:52:34 am »
So many types and so many positions from where you can initiate it.

Offline SkinnyDevil

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Re: MMA vs Boxing and Fighting Without Influence of Modern Sports
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2010, 07:05:49 am »
In a prehistoric battle with our ancestors (no weapons), what do you think they would do to kill or beat their opponent?

Take a look at our nearest primate relatives for a good idea.
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Offline King Salmon

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Re: MMA vs Boxing and Fighting Without Influence of Modern Sports
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2010, 08:30:30 am »
Usually in a fight where there is no "training" per se,it becomes a "big guy bully small guy" category.So,the bigger guy usually wins no matter what the tactic.Unless the big guy is a pussy -d
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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: MMA vs Boxing and Fighting Without Influence of Modern Sports
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2010, 08:39:37 am »
In a prehistoric battle with our ancestors (no weapons), what do you think they would do to kill or beat their opponent?

What do you think? How would someone fight without influence of modern sports and martial arts?

It is always with weapons.  However primitive. 
A stick, a club, a rock.
Without weapons?
Judo style, knock em down and bop his head on rocks - he's dead.
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Offline ezekiel

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Re: MMA vs Boxing and Fighting Without Influence of Modern Sports
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2010, 08:56:05 am »
@skinnydevil
yeah perhaps, they don't walk up right though, they also might utilize their jaws more

@king salmon
well not necessarily no training (our ancestors prob were in very good shape), just not exposed to modern day martial arts
size, strength, speed, aggressiveness are all factors

@goodsmaritan
i like your simplicity

oh yeah, hair pulling def would have been used, attacking the genitals, eye gouging,


Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: MMA vs Boxing and Fighting Without Influence of Modern Sports
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2010, 09:45:18 am »
I think the most natural attacks are open handed strikes, clawing, biting and grappling. And by grappling I mean dragging someone to the ground, somehow getting on top of them and smashing their face with some part of your arm. Also choking at the neck with your hands.

Offline ezekiel

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Re: MMA vs Boxing and Fighting Without Influence of Modern Sports
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2010, 10:02:47 am »
@raw kyle
I agree, but I do believe closed hammer fist when on top of a grounded opponent is natural. It just feels very natural to me. I can do hammer fist to my heavy bag (in side control or in their guard) on the floor without warming up and and without gloves with no issue with tendon/hand/wrist soreness (unlike hook punches). I have to warm up a bit for hooks and wear a glove on the bag if I am hitting full force.

You can do hammer fist in multiple positions but these are the positions I am referring to.

side control
http://www.grapplearts.com/Images/Grappling-Techniques/Andreh-Anderson/Margarida-Guard-Pass-8.jpg

in someones guard
http://www.gbwbjj.com/assets/images/guard.jpg


Offline dashcow

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Re: MMA vs Boxing and Fighting Without Influence of Modern Sports
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2010, 05:40:45 pm »
Yeah but you never see gorillas going for each others balls do you? You don't wont to mutilate your opposing sapien, just beat him into submission.

I smell a lot of sexual repression and misplaced machismo with these fighters...  :P

Offline SkinnyDevil

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Re: MMA vs Boxing and Fighting Without Influence of Modern Sports
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2010, 08:53:31 pm »
I might also add it depends on WHY they are fighting.

I say this because some fights (for dominance, for example) contain lots of posturing and are not necessarily intended to be lethal, while other fights (for resources, for example) tend to be vicious & brutal. Others (based in anger, for example) often start brutal but wain quickly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDYyv-iLmRY
Mostly posturing. Looks like play-fighting to me.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1415208/gorilla_vs_gorilla/
Posturing...but coulda got serious!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHreO8iFNs4&NR=1
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Offline ezekiel

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Re: MMA vs Boxing and Fighting Without Influence of Modern Sports
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2010, 11:05:43 pm »
@dashcow
were not gorillas,  humans have stronger brains and obviously developed tactics and knew weak points on themselves and other animals,

misplaced machismo? are you talking about the pictures I posted?many guys get put on their back by better stronger men, so they learn how to fight from their back in mixed martial arts, you can choke someone or break their arm from your back, the guard is to hold them in place, in real life that would prevent them from posturing up for strikes or standing up and stomping your face in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3QzX1ZadJM


again guys, are ancestors were intelligent, i am just saying, if a neanderthal got into a brawl to the death, and wasn't influence by boxing, kickboxing etc) what would he do, i imagine it would ultimately end up with them tussling around, hitting biting scratching etc, it would def be crazy to see some Neanderthals fight, they must have been very strong and intelligent

apes aren't as social as humans, i think we were more likely to work together than to have one young strong guy displaying dominance (the other guys would just double team him),

scenario for fight to the death? a guy from another tribe tries to raid your supplies/food at night, ha
« Last Edit: August 30, 2010, 11:20:45 pm by Sully »

Offline ezekiel

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Re: MMA vs Boxing and Fighting Without Influence of Modern Sports
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2010, 11:34:53 pm »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGwUpM9QryU

lookat the bear do a throw 0:40, there not humans, but i use that throw often when grappling

Offline dashcow

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Re: MMA vs Boxing and Fighting Without Influence of Modern Sports
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2010, 05:47:59 am »
No sorry mate, the taunting in the videos - like the guy asking to be hit in the jaw around 1.05. Don't think its natural or healthy to approach any fight or 'fighting' with that mindset. I completely agree with you about being more technical, like weak points, I vividly remember pulling my friends hair in a fight, and as a kid I didn't even think twice about it but just knew it would hurt.

On a side note I was thinking that I don't play fight with brothers or friends any more, but back in the day when we did, we were never so close :).

David
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 06:18:45 am by dashcow »

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Re: MMA vs Boxing and Fighting Without Influence of Modern Sports
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2010, 08:25:04 am »
On a side note I was thinking that I don't play fight with brothers or friends any more, but back in the day when we did, we were never so close :).
You missed out. My brother and I used to have some serious brawls which always ended up with grappling and a submission of some form. He used to exploit choke holds on me as I was a fat kid and couldn't get him off my back well but it was all fun. ;D
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Offline ezekiel

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Re: MMA vs Boxing and Fighting Without Influence of Modern Sports
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2010, 09:05:03 am »
You missed out. My brother and I used to have some serious brawls which always ended up with grappling and a submission of some form. He used to exploit choke holds on me as I was a fat kid and couldn't get him off my back well but it was all fun. ;D
Yeah me too, my brother and I got in a tussle when we were younger, I picked him up and he got me in a guillotine choke, i believe I bit him to get out

Offline Brother

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Re: MMA vs Boxing and Fighting Without Influence of Modern Sports
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2010, 04:10:31 pm »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pankration


Effective style depends on the fighter. In the right set of hands, the silliness of WWF wrestling would be pretty dangerous if the acting was removed. I have no doubt that some of these behemoths could lift you up while you are flailing your arms around with "teh d3edly ninja", turn you around mid air and plant you face first into the ground with your own weight +momentum comming up right behind. It all comes down to who use the tools and how. There are not ultimate style or move, but there are some pretty frightening fighters which could turn Salsa into teh deadly!!!

« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 04:23:34 pm by Brother »

Offline SkinnyDevil

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Re: MMA vs Boxing and Fighting Without Influence of Modern Sports
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2010, 09:36:15 pm »
Pankration (or, modern, pancration or pancrase) was and is very effective. However, it is less a style in and of itself and more a collection of techniques & limitations (or rules). Not so much a self-contained system (like judo or shotokan karate)...think more general, like the term MMA (mixed martial arts). MMA is not itself a style, but a collection of techniques used within a set of limitation (rules).

As I've mentioned in the past here, I used to fight pancrase events years ago. As with events like UFC & Pride, people of various styles & backgrounds stepped into the ring, but they fight within a set of rules (no pulling hair, for example, or intentional groin shots).

But back to the original question:

Again, the tone of the fight is always set by WHY the fight is happening. Why the fight is happening will tend to dictate methods used.

For example, if two combatants are going head to head in single combat over the favors of a female, there will be lots of posturing & such. The fight could be mostly fisticuffs, or it may well go to the ground, where it can stay until there is a clear victor. Lethal techniques employed to their ultimate end are less likely (& less needed).

If one is being stalked & confronted by a group of thugs (say a lone hunter has inadvertently stumbled within the grounds of an unfriendly tribe), using ground techniques is hardly the best option, as there is no guarantee of single combat. It could easily be 2 or 3 or 4 against one, & being on your back in such a situation is asking for trouble. In such a case, quick strikes with rapid footwork is a better strategy while looking for an escape!

As to how developed their arsenal of techniques was - depends on when & where & who. Sapiens were more advanced than others, and with it probably had a better set of techniques. Later sapiens probably had a much more comprehensive tool-box, as we can teach & pass information down the line.
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Offline Brother

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Re: MMA vs Boxing and Fighting Without Influence of Modern Sports
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2010, 04:26:01 pm »
Pankration (or, modern, pancration or pancrase) was and is very effective. However, it is less a style in and of itself and more a collection of techniques & limitations (or rules). Not so much a self-contained system (like judo or shotokan karate)...think more general, like the term MMA (mixed martial arts). MMA is not itself a style, but a collection of techniques used within a set of limitation (rules).

Cool. I had only heard about it at random and whatever info I could find on the net. I wish there was clubs here, because I would really like to give it a go in an orderly framework.

Quote
If one is being stalked & confronted by a group of thugs (say a lone hunter has inadvertently stumbled within the grounds of an unfriendly tribe), using ground techniques is hardly the best option, as there is no guarantee of single combat. It could easily be 2 or 3 or 4 against one, & being on your back in such a situation is asking for trouble. In such a case, quick strikes with rapid footwork is a better strategy while looking for an escape!

In that particular situation I would opt. for getting out of there ASAP too. Knowing and admitting when you're outnumbered makes a lot of sense. Also because real fights rarely last more than 20-30 seconds due to the chaotic nature of it. Keeping track of more than one really violent attacker in the situation is Hollywood jive. You have no idea who you are facing before it goes down.

Quote
Sapiens were more advanced than others, and with it probably had a better set of techniques. Later sapiens probably had a much more comprehensive tool-box, as we can teach & pass information down the line.

absolutely. Some styles had to develop as dancing and meditation because they were a front against an oppressor that did not allow for weapons or combat training. Modern MMA is a good demonstration of exactly what you are saying. Only we saw this very progress happen very very fast from the Gracies and onwards. It was styles from all over the place with all kinds of backgrounds being put up against eachother constantly. When it was an oppressor with one style against a population with another, I assume it would take a lot of time for this same development, exchange of ideas, loses orr whatever drove it forwards.

 

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