Author Topic: Censorship  (Read 7984 times)

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Offline Hanna

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Censorship
« on: September 03, 2010, 06:38:11 pm »
I remember a post written by Alpha in Paleophil´s journal pointing out that "instinctive" censorship has taken place. It was posted at least two times, I think. But again I can´t find it any longer. Was this post censored away two times? Why was it censored? And what was censored in the posts about cassia? Have my posts been censored too?

Just would like to know.

Offline djr_81

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Re: Censorship
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2010, 06:51:04 pm »
Alpha's posts had gotten to the point that they were inflammatory and/or out right attacks. Everyone is free to have their own opinions here but we do request that you express them with respect to your fellow RPDers. Collectively the staff felt they needed to step in in this case.
I do not believe any of your posts were removed Hanna. :)
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alphagruis

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Re: Censorship
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2010, 07:17:33 pm »
Alpha's posts had gotten to the point that they were inflammatory and/or out right attacks.

That's your opinion and Iguana's one. Criticisms are not insults as you or Iguana seem to believe.

Takeover of this forum by the rare instinctos posting here has de facto taken place, now.

 People like you unfortunately don't know anything about the trouble instincto nonsense has led to here in Europe.

I'm going to leave France and Europe anyway in the forthcoming months for several years of circumnavigation on board of  my recently bought 40 feet sailing boat and so probably no longer post much here. 

Until that I won't shut as Iguana would like me to do unless you ban me  :)

At any rate  I'll have done what I could do to warn the forumers here.

 

Offline Iguana

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Re: Censorship
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2010, 07:22:53 pm »
I deleted one or two sentences of abuse in this post, in conformity with the rules of the forum that Alphagruis agreed to when he registered.

Then Alphagruis scorned at me in PaleoPhil’s Journal and I deleted his contempt as well. This was done in consultation with the forum staff (admin and others global moderators), as djr_81 pointed out.

Other insults posted by Alphagruis in the thread "Can You Still Eat Raw Meat if it's Turned a Little Brown?" have been moved into the moderators section.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2010, 07:39:18 pm by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline djr_81

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Re: Censorship
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2010, 07:38:25 pm »
That's your opinion and Iguana's one. Criticisms are not insults as you or Iguana seem to believe.
No, it has truly been the feelings of the entire administrative/moderative staff.
Honestly, this whole topic shouldn't even be here but I left it so that Hanna (and others) could understand that we're not being arbitrary here with our actions. Your comments aren't simple criticisms at this point but cutting remarks made at fellow members veiled with sarcasm and smilies.
You been asked before privately to calm down with the remarks and this never did any good. Perhaps if you're publicly chastised it will drive the point home that it's not acceptable. -\

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Takeover of this forum by the rare instinctos posting here has de facto taken place, now.
First, I do not follow "Instincto". I do feel that some of the concepts I have seen discussed here on the board have merit but I have not, nor care not, to delve deep enough into the overall concept. I pursue my own health by my own means and where this overlaps the beliefs of my fellow posters I will share my anecdotal experience.

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People like you unfortunately don't know anything about the trouble instincto nonsense has led to here in Europe.
This is true. What I do know if respect for fellow man unless he shows me he doesn't deserve it. I have not personally witnessed either Berger or Iguana doing anything which spurns that respect so I show them this respect.
If someone does not deserve this respect then I will just not associate with them rather than instigate anything.
FWIW I feel that barring this squabbling you too deserve much respect for your life experiences Alphagruis and hope we can get back to the point where everybody coexists peaceably here.

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I'm going to leave France and Europe anyway in the forthcoming months for several years of circumnavigation on board of  my recently bought 40 feet sailing boat and so probably no longer post much here.
I wish you luck with this. It sound like quite the adventure. :)

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Until that I won't shut as Iguana would like me to do unless you ban me  :)
Ultimately that is up to you. It would bother me to ban you but I will do it if the administrative staff feels it necessary. I do have misgivings as it'll just add fuel to your fire.

Quote
At any rate  I'll have done what I could do to warn the forumers here.
You could have raised doubts about the Instincto method just as thoroughly, and spurred great debate, without adding any conflict on a personal level though...
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Censorship
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2010, 02:54:51 am »
DJR-81 pretty much covered what I was going to say. We can't allow personal disagreements on issues to derail threads that had nothing to do with Instincto in the first place, really. Otherwise it just turns into an unnecessary spat between members and people just get bored and want to read about other topics instead.

Oh, and any criticisms  of rawpaleoforum/suggestions for improvement etc. should really be made in the Suggestions Box forum.


As for the issue of Instincto,  it is 1 of the many different aspects of RVAF diets so has to be included as a forum, just like the Primal Diet. I personally dislike most of what the Primal Diet represents, but it is a valid type of RVAF diet, and some RPF members consume raw dairy, which is why I try not to attack raw-dairy-drinkers or Aajonus as much as I used to(difficult given my past experiences, I admit). Instincto also has many criticisms levelled at it(too much sweet fruit and certain other issues unrelated to diet etc.)  and undoubtedly deserves criticism like any other diet out there, but that can be done without the personal attacks.

Other than the above issue, though, you do provide some  very interesting insights in your posts.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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alphagruis

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Re: Censorship
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2010, 03:59:10 am »
djr_81,

Well, this virtuous position looks very nice and good but the truth is that Iguana just puts forward as a pretext my so-called "abuses or insults" to manipulate my posts and cut away whatever he dislikes because it criticizes or ridicules instincto nonsense.

This is just a manipulation of things and people. Iguana has now nothing else to do the whole day long than to look for instincto "detractors" on various forums, try to argue against them and when things go wrong for him turn to censorship and tricky manipulations of posts and threads intended to make just everything more confuse and so distort and obscure the relevant threads and "detractors" messages. In Iguana's view anybody who criticises instincto "insults" him as well as the guru anyway. Just read his ridiculous reactions to Hanna's or KD's or other's criticisms.
 
There were so called "insults or abuses" on instincto side too but I didn't care at all neither did I complain. I can't see why not have left both sides express their views without any censorship. This would have had the advantage to make thinks at least understandable and lucid enough to allow any forumer to make his own opinion.

There are a lot of much harsher post exchanges in various threads of this forum and nobody censored them and this did not stop the earth's revolving.

I don't like censorship at all in whatever form it may take. I dislike hypocrisy and only like people who call a spade a spade even if this behaviour appears to be harsh.

Turning to censorship in whatever instances is always a bad sign and makes me definitively uncomfortable.

I know that you are not instincto and follow wisely your own path. Fortunately most of us here do so and can't be fooled by instincto nonsense and there are only 2 instinctos here. So I don't think they had to censor anything here.

I actually tried once to debate politely with them elsewhere but this appeared to be impossible almost immediately. These people feign to be very polite only as long as their beliefs are not seriously questioned.

Finally I made the very simple decision that I won't post anymore in this forum since this situation of censorship seems to be endorsed by the whole administrative/moderative staff, intended to persist in future and since I disagree so strongly with it.

I wish you good luck too.  






 

  

Offline reyyzl

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Re: Censorship
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2010, 04:55:41 am »
"Can You Still Eat Raw Meat if it's Turned a Little Brown?" have been moved into the moderators section.

    That wasn't in my section, so I took advantage of not looking at it.  Meat that turns brown?  Please!  We eat high meat here.  Meat that turns colors, I'm more concerned about chemicals.

    If we need to censor something in this forum, that may be a rare occurrence.  There's no problem I can see.  When we post something somewhere else that they might deem wrong for whatever reason at all, they censor.  We are going in a certain direction here basically- health, paleo and truth.  The moderators may have to do what they need to on occasion.   
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Offline Iguana

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Re: Censorship
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2010, 05:13:08 am »
Alphagruis, I don't understand what happened to you to get so fanatical to the point you don't even see anymore the difference between criticism and insults. I see there’s no other way for you to stop your personal attacks but to leave, unfortunately.

You seem to know better than me what is my live, my time schedule, what I have to do or not to do. Don’t worry, I have plenty of better things to do than constantly respond to you insults and sarcasms.

I’m flabbergasted you don’t realize that some of your posts were about the most ill-mannered ever seen on any forum. As a matter of fact, I had never seen somebody behaving in such a way for so long with so much impunity in any of the forums I’m familiar with.

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There are a lot of much harsher post exchanges in various threads of this forum and nobody censored them and this did not stop the earth's revolving.

I haven’t noticed that except here:
No Tyler. Definitely impossible.
Either you've read the book and you are stupid.
Or you never read the book and you are a lier.
There is no other alternative left.  Sad.

Quote
I don't like censorship at all in whatever form it may take. I dislike hypocrisy and only like people who call a spade a spade even if this behaviour appears to be harsh.
Turning to censorship in whatever instances is always a bad sign and makes me definitively uncomfortable.

I agree. Ideas and criticism should never be censored and haven’t been censored. But personal attacks, slander and defamation are not allowed here.

Quote
Finally I made the very simple decision that I won't post anymore in this forum since this situation of censorship seems to be endorsed by the whole administrative/moderative staff, intended to persist in future and since I disagree so strongly with it.

Good luck and good wind, Gerard.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline KD

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Re: Censorship
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2010, 05:41:24 am »
If I have a comment, its that there is at the very least, a tremendous amount of exaggeration going on.

Offline KD

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Re: Censorship
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2010, 05:55:22 am »
ok another. IICR even before this current spat, there were indeed entire posts removed from the 'Explain Instincto Fully' thread and not just the insults. It is true that people SHOULD be able to coexist peacefully and especially that topics don't just degenerate into personal or ideological gripes. At the same time, even indirectly, many people are inevitably going to be insulted by others attacking their ideas anyway, and the idea that everyone is not guilty of responding poorly sometimes seems idealistic. If we all wanted to comb over each others posts, we could find at least some cases where it was at least implied that the other person was a total mental defective. Also, some people whether voluntarily or not tend to take on a guru-like status, and it doesn't make sense that people like Lyle Mcdonald or Aajonus or Matt Stone or whatever can be totally crapped on yet others are beyond criticism for their actions. This to me represents double standard. Its certainly should be required to stick to facts, but bringing up facts which in themselves might be insulting I would think should avoid censorship.

I have no paranoias to the ruling body of the board, but at the same time there seems to be something in bad taste about the person in the ring and invested with such arguments making the call as to what others get to see. As with above, with something singled out I imagine its alot easier to agree that something is improper rather than finding it particularly offensive in passing. FWIW I've certainly seen WAY worse insults, degenerating arguments, and trolling myself in my foruming. I mean, no one even got called a cunt.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Censorship
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2010, 02:58:38 pm »
KD, the posts removed from the Explain Instincto Diet Fully and Explain Instincto Diet Fully 2 threads are here: Alpha's best and here Instincto Debunking Thread.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline GCB

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Re: Censorship
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2010, 03:30:31 pm »
Alphagruis,

I can assure you that I am distressed by the turn things are taking. I don't understand why it’s not possible for you to discuss calmly the various theoretical points that you seem to challenge. You never responded when I asked what reasoning allowed you to deduct from the theories of complex systems that instinct would be incompatible with emergent properties. I could have gone myself into insults, but it is not in my character: is it perhaps this indifference on my part that unsettled you?

Still, things could have gone differently, through a healthy competition of the respective arguments, with all possible attacks (courteous) against opposing arguments, but not against individuals or against the overall positions. A rule should also be to take into account the points presented in the replies of the other party and avoid responding in the manner of mockery or defamation.

Personally, I remain willing to discuss ideas while ignoring the PAST insults, and I hope that will be possible some day...


Offline Hanna

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Re: Censorship
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2010, 04:35:56 pm »
Then Alphagruis scorned at me in PaleoPhil’s Journal and I deleted his contempt as well. This was done in consultation with the forum staff (admin and others global moderators), as djr_81 pointed out.

Alpha wrote: "And by the way passed by Instincto censor" or something very similar. I don´t know what else was deleted, but what exactly was the problem with this sentence I still remember? The laughing smiley that followed?

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Censorship
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2010, 06:20:12 pm »
Minor note:- I am probably the most vociferous denouncer on this board of Aajonus, given past posts. On the other hand, I also have at least acknowledged that Aajonus is right on some things such as high-meat etc. etc.. As regards Instincto, I have also sometimes voiced concerns/criticisms of it in the past, but, as with the primal diet,  accepted that Instincto was part of the RVAF diet movement, so didn't constantly attack it.

I  personally think  that, given that this is a rawpaleodiet forum, being 100% condemnatory of non-rawpalaeo gurus who advocate cooked foods etc. is perfectly OK as raw vegan forums similiarly denounce meat-eating etc. etc. - though, quite a number of others here  have criticised me heavily for denouncing Weston-Price and similiar non-RPD-kosher gurus. Ah well!
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Censorship
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2010, 06:43:28 pm »
Hanna, here is this exchange between Alphagruis and me if you think very important that his amiable answer be known to all and left for the posterity   l)
Of course, he was perfectly right in insulting GCB and me, as well as in being derisive when his insults were censored. My mistake is repaired below.

In agreement with PaleoPhil, the posts concerning cassia fistula have been moved here.

And by the way passed by instincto censorship  ;D

Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Hanna

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Re: Censorship
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2010, 05:29:28 pm »
Iguana, that was no answer to my question. And since the other moderators and the admin supported your decision, I would like to get an answer from them too. Why was this post censored?

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Censorship
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2010, 05:52:25 pm »
Because A's posts re Instincto were , on the whole, consistently derogatory involving personal attacks, not just the occasional post.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline miles

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Re: Censorship
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2010, 06:57:55 pm »
Every single day, in a sub-forum right here...

War! The Administration is crumbling
under attacks by the ruthless
Sith Lord, Hanna.
There are heroes on both sides.
Conflict is everywhere.
In a stunning move, the
fiendish separatist leader, General
Alphagurius, has swept into the
Instincto sub-forum and kidnapped
Chancellor Iguana, leader of
the Instincto Senate.
As the Separatist Army
attempts to flee the besieged
sub-forum with their valuable
hostage, two Paleo Knights lead
a desperate mission to rescue the
captive Chancellor….

Forum Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Instincto's
5-10% off your first purchase at http://www.iherb.com/ with dicount code: KIS978

Offline djr_81

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Re: Censorship
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2010, 08:02:39 pm »
Alpha wrote: "And by the way passed by Instincto censor" or something very similar. I don´t know what else was deleted, but what exactly was the problem with this sentence I still remember? The laughing smiley that followed?
In that instance it was the smiley. It's deeper than this though. Honestly if that sentence was posted by anyone else, even with the smiley, it would not have been a problem. It was Alpha's past personal criticisms which shadowed the post.
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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Censorship
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2010, 08:21:50 pm »
It's all a matter of point of view.

I want my dose of instincto posts from GCB and Iguana without some Alphagruis or Alpha Jr. heckling every instincto post.

Just as I want my dose of Aajonus Vonderplanitz without some heckler saying Aajonus is a fraud at every post.

Just as I want my weston price stuff without the every post saying price was a fraud.

Now incessant heckling is censorship.  That has got to stop.

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