Author Topic: Mechanical food processing and fermented foods  (Read 15416 times)

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Offline Hanna

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« on: August 18, 2010, 06:59:21 pm »
You may eat more of the same meat if it’s ground, so you’ll easily eat too much of it. As a result you may have digestion troubles and if you systematically grind your meat you can remain permanently in a state of meat overload which can be dangerous in the long run.  

Have you ever experimented with grinded meat, Iguana? I can´t eat much meat, even if it is grinded, so I cannot experiment with it. But when I pureed, for example, nuts, I could actually eat LESS of them as usually, the alliesthetic stops manifested earlier or at least clearer (maybe because the surface of the pureed food is larger?) and my digestion was more perfect, at least with some kinds of nuts. When I add salt to meat, avocado, vegetable etc., I can suddenly eat more of the respective food, because alliesthetic stops disappear, and this can have negative effects (in my case). But after extensive experimenting with pureeing food (because I wore fixed braces for one and a half years...) I think that there is no reason to "forbid" mechanical treatment of food on principle, as long as one doesn´t mix different foods together and doesn´t add condiments.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2010, 07:04:25 pm by Hanna »

alphagruis

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« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2010, 08:09:52 pm »
Have you ever experimented with grinded meat, Iguana?

I bet the answer is no. What for since the guru told him?  ;D

Offline Wolf

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« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2010, 09:07:59 pm »
Well I can't seem to eat more than a pound of meat a day ground or not, unless it's rare-cooked, so I suppose I should be okay as far as too much meat consumption?  The only problem was that ground meat was the only 100% grass-fed beef I could find, but I recently found a new store that has more grass-fed meats so I hope to get some nice, solid cuts of grass-fed beef.
Hi, I'm 26, around 5'4" and ~124lb, no real significant health problems other than hyperventilating when running/exercising (that my doc said was because of the smog/asthma), fatigue, and really bad acne.
I'd preferably be a carnivore/very low carb, but I have had a very hard time finding grass-fed or even organic fats, organs, and marrow. I consume raw dairy, but I do not eat much vegetables.. however, I do love fruit.Trying WAI.
I live with my dad, so I also have to sneak any raw meat eating.

Offline Hanna

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« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2010, 04:26:12 am »
Maybe someone wants to replicate my experiment, ideally someone familiar with instincto since several years. Just puree your food before you eat it (but make sure that you puree chicoree, lettuce, rucola, kohlrabi, cauliflower, papaya with its skin, walnuts etc. some day, because these foods are particularly tasty after pureeing -d). And then tell whether the alliesthetic stops manifest earlier or later. I mostly used a 600 watt hand blender.

Offline klowcarb

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« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2010, 04:56:01 am »
Well I can't seem to eat more than a pound of meat a day ground or not, unless it's rare-cooked, so I suppose I should be okay as far as too much meat consumption?  The only problem was that ground meat was the only 100% grass-fed beef I could find, but I recently found a new store that has more grass-fed meats so I hope to get some nice, solid cuts of grass-fed beef.

I eat a pound at one sitting.  :)

Offline miles

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« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2010, 07:31:38 am »
I eat a pound at one sitting.  :)

But you only have one sitting(as do I).
5-10% off your first purchase at http://www.iherb.com/ with dicount code: KIS978

Offline Michael

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« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2010, 06:13:06 pm »
I hear you Michael. So the grinding is not a problem? Just the way it is done with a grinder cleaned with industrial cleaners? Does time do a job on the meat differently when it is ground?

Seemingly, others may disagree raw-al but, personally, I think it's ok to eat it ground if done very soon after grinding at home.  The only issues that concern me are the industrial cleaners and not consuming it fresh.  Indeed, time almost certainly seems to do a job on the massively increased surface area!  I haven't experienced the issue of non-manifestation of the alliesthetic stop by eating ground meat and have not noticed any ill effects on my digestion.  Other's experiences may vary.

I'm currently eating around 500g (1.1lb) raw meat per day in the form of fatty lamb or beef.

As a further note, I'm also beginning to realise the importance of not obsessively focusing on attaining an unachievable level of perfection with one's diet.  We have to live within the constraints of modern society and within the constraining responsibilities of our own lives.  I think Lex has made some very good points on this matter in his journal.

1. When offered something that is too good to be true. It is.
2. Greed and fear are poor states of mind in which to make decisions; like shopping at the supermarket when you are hungry.
3. Exponential growth is mathematically unsustainable.

Offline Iguana

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« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2010, 08:04:04 pm »
Have you ever experimented with grinded meat, Iguana? I can´t eat much meat, even if it is grinded, so I cannot experiment with it. But when I pureed, for example, nuts, I could actually eat LESS of them as usually, the alliesthetic stops manifested earlier or at least clearer (maybe because the surface of the pureed food is larger?) and my digestion was more perfect, at least with some kinds of nuts. When I add salt to meat, avocado, vegetable etc., I can suddenly eat more of the respective food, because alliesthetic stops disappear, and this can have negative effects (in my case). But after extensive experimenting with pureeing food (because I wore fixed braces for one and a half years...) I think that there is no reason to "forbid" mechanical treatment of food on principle, as long as one doesn´t mix different foods together and doesn´t add condiments.

I bet the answer is no. What for since the guru told him?  ;D

I’m actually doing the opposite experiment: to eat unprocessed meat and everything else unprocessed, unseasoned. My former 41 years experiment with ground, processed meat and other cooked foodstuff was disastrous enough… Yeah, I didn’t separate the variable and try each processed foodstuff and each process independently : it would be a painstakingly  long work.

But I’ve recently experienced raw ground supermarket beef on my cat. He’s very found of it and he engulfs it very quickly in large amounts. On the opposite, he doesn’t like raw, plain supermarket beef at all: he reluctantly eats some when extremely hungry only.

I also witnessed the experiment of our friend “Carnivore” with his damned meat grinder doing the hell of a noise. He apparently ate so much meat and meat only during so long that in the end he grew tired, bored and lazy of chewing it. So, by grinding it, he could still easily eat exclusively meat for some more months.

Even if there was no grinders and blenders in the Paleolithoc era, I don’t think grinding food is too bad; in the case of someone missing teeth it can be the best solution to still eat raw. But if our natural grinder (our mouth with teeth) is in working order, why recourse to an external grinder? Of course, it’s not “forbidden” (everybody being free to eat and process whatever he or she likes). Everything has advantages and shortcoming, and so it is for grinding. The main shortcomings of grinding seem to me that we mix different parts of the stuff, some of these parts we might not have eaten when unprocessed so that we could eat the parts we like and reject the parts tasting bad. Per example, once meat is ground, we can no longer choose the ratio of fat to muscle because everything is mixed. If you grind carrots or make carrot juice, you cannot spit out and reject the possible bad one since it’ll be mixed with all the others.    

In doubt, it may be wise to eliminate every plainly Neolithic food and processes: its’ just an elementary application of the precautionary principle. I didn’t write that there’s a non-manifestation of the alliesthetic stop with ground food, Michael, I inserted “may” and “can” in my sentences.

As for “gurus”, Alphagruis  ;D, I had plenty of them and they taught me a lot of things, to start with my father and mother, school teachers, professors, philosophers, engineers, biologists and physicists. I owe them just about everything I know. Nevertheless, I put everything into questions and I avoid beliefs like the plague, as recommended by Descartes for example. But when an argument is logical and coherent, I don’t feel an irresistible need to put my life and health in danger by setting up experiments to prove or disprove it, especially when I don’t give a damn about it.  :P

Cheers
Francois
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 08:13:56 pm by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline TylerDurden

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« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2010, 10:23:53 pm »
I found that eating raw, ground meat made me eat a lot more than I usually did. Also at the start of going rawpalaeo it took a bit longer to digest than raw non-ground meats.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Offline raw-al

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« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2010, 11:12:58 pm »
I'm currently eating around 500g (1.1lb) raw meat per day in the form of fatty lamb or beef.

As a further note, I'm also beginning to realize the importance of not obsessively focusing on attaining an unachievable level of perfection with one's diet.  We have to live within the constraints of modern society and within the constraining responsibilities of our own lives.  I think Lex has made some very good points on this matter in his journal.
Thoughtful as usual. I got a digital scale and decided to try weighing my meat consumption. A typical day sees me eating approximately 4.5 ounces of meat once a day. I cannot eat more or I gag. I follow AV other diet recommendations. I will  look in grinding my own though.

Also I periodically eat some garbage or another ;D :o and then I say to my GF " why didn't you warn me I would feel sick from eating that stuff? If you loved me you wouldn't let me". She laughs while I wince in pain.
Cheers
Al

Offline Michael

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« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2010, 04:02:27 am »
But you only have one sitting(as do I).

ha ha  :D  I did think that myself miles but daren't say it?!!   -\  I only tend to eat once a day myself too.
1. When offered something that is too good to be true. It is.
2. Greed and fear are poor states of mind in which to make decisions; like shopping at the supermarket when you are hungry.
3. Exponential growth is mathematically unsustainable.

Offline klowcarb

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« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2010, 09:18:24 am »
OH, indeed, once per day except on lifting days when I eat about 8oz. ground beef before hand. Those are so small and I still fast so I still count it as one as it is within an eating window.

Offline Hanna

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« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2010, 03:22:50 pm »
I don’t feel an irresistible need to put my life and health in danger

It would not be necessary to "put your life and health in danger". You could, for example, eat grinded meat and plain meat alternately. If the plain meat isn´t tasty any longer, but you still like the grinded meat, you could stop eating the grinded meat.

Offline Hanna

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« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2010, 04:02:46 pm »
But I’ve recently experienced raw ground supermarket beef on my cat. He’s very found of it and he engulfs it very quickly in large amounts. On the opposite, he doesn’t like raw, plain supermarket beef at all: he reluctantly eats some when extremely hungry only.

Does your cat like grass fed beef or game more than supermarket beef?

Offline Wolf

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« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2010, 04:16:53 pm »
I eat a pound at one sitting.  :)

Is that ground or solid?
I can almost eat an entire pound of ground beef in one sitting.  There's usually just a few bites or so left that I can't seem to eat, and I will usually leave that out to get nice and browned with age overnight and then eat it the next day, so I don't mind.  It's a nice treat.

The solid grass-fed meats I found however are extremely expensive, so I think I might end up sticking with ground beef.. I can buy 4 times as much grass-fed ground beef as I can grass-fed solid beef, for the same price.  In the interest of saving money, I will probably stick mostly to ground, with maybe every once in a while treating myself to a solid grass-fed steak if I can afford it.   :'(
Hi, I'm 26, around 5'4" and ~124lb, no real significant health problems other than hyperventilating when running/exercising (that my doc said was because of the smog/asthma), fatigue, and really bad acne.
I'd preferably be a carnivore/very low carb, but I have had a very hard time finding grass-fed or even organic fats, organs, and marrow. I consume raw dairy, but I do not eat much vegetables.. however, I do love fruit.Trying WAI.
I live with my dad, so I also have to sneak any raw meat eating.

Offline Michael

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« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2010, 04:26:36 pm »
Thoughtful as usual.
Thanks! :)

Quote
Also I periodically eat some garbage or another ;D :o and then I say to my GF " why didn't you warn me I would feel sick from eating that stuff? If you loved me you wouldn't let me". She laughs while I wince in pain.
ha ha :)  That's funny.  I do exactly the same thing!
1. When offered something that is too good to be true. It is.
2. Greed and fear are poor states of mind in which to make decisions; like shopping at the supermarket when you are hungry.
3. Exponential growth is mathematically unsustainable.

Offline raw-al

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« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2010, 07:52:01 pm »
Thanks! :)
ha ha :)  That's funny.  I do exactly the same thing!
We rent a video and hunker down in bed with the 24" iMac on the dresser to watch it and I haul out a bag of some kind of "health food"  ;D like vege chips or corn chips or whatever. :P l) :o :( ;D
Cheers
Al

Offline Iguana

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« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2010, 12:40:42 am »
It would not be necessary to "put your life and health in danger". You could, for example, eat grinded meat and plain meat alternately. If the plain meat isn´t tasty any longer, but you still like the grinded meat, you could stop eating the grinded meat.

Yes, I could but :

- I have no grinder and I don’t want any : expensive, very noisy, bothersome to wash, energy consuming.
- Rather than chop the meat into small pieces with a knife, I very much prefer to bite into a large piece : it tastes better so and the mouthfuls are torn away, which leaves a gradual edge and distend the flesh, making chewing a lot easier.
- I can choose to eat the fat or the muscle in the proportion I like.
- As I said, I don’t give a damn about it, so why would I bother to experiment it? There are more interesting things to do in life than to revert separately to each kind of Neolithic or industrial food processing to check whether it generates troubles or not!
- Short term results of such experiments can be misleading.
- The experiments I witnessed, by “Carnivore” and on my cat, were convincing enough in case the reasons above wouldn’t be sufficient, which is not the case.

Does your cat like grass fed beef or game more than supermarket beef?

He never had grass fed beef, but sometimes NZ lamb and he likes it very much, fat and muscle. He’s crazy about wild boar and deer, but I prefer to eat it myself... Concerning supermarket beef, it depends. Previously he didn’t like much or not at all the fatty pieces I found, but today I bought some very nice lean pieces looking like filet steaks, sold cheap for animal consumption (I guess the limit date for sale was over) and he ate a lot of it, apparently with delight. He had only sardines, organic eggs, and probably a few mice and insects for several days, so he was apparently missing meat. The quality of supermarket beef sold for animals can vary largely, from mainly grass fed to industrially fed, from lean to very fatty, so it’s difficult to conclude anything.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Hanna

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« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2010, 02:54:06 pm »

- As I said, I don’t give a damn about it, so why would I bother to experiment it? There are more interesting things to do in life than to revert separately to each kind of Neolithic or industrial food processing to check whether it generates troubles or not!
- Short term results of such experiments can be misleading.
- The experiments I witnessed, by “Carnivore” and on my cat, were convincing enough in case the reasons above wouldn’t be sufficient, which is not the case.


If you give a damn about it, why do you teach in this forum that mechanical food processing is (or "could be") detrimental? Couldn´t it be that you are not willing to put your belief systems to test?

Carnivore told that he tried instincto and that instincto didn´t help him either. Apropos carnivore, he isn´t signed in to the forum any longer, so he can´t defend himself.

Almost any variety of fruit we eat is entirely neolithic. I bet that all the dates, oranges etc. rawfooders often eat are much more detrimental than, say, thinly sliced (i . e. "mechanically denatured") meat, diced vegetable or even sauerkraut. Food processing is nothing specifically neolithic; in paleo times cooking was already widespread.

Offline Iguana

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« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2010, 03:59:59 pm »

If you give a damn about it, why do you teach in this forum that mechanical food processing is (or "could be") detrimental? Couldn´t it be that you are not willing to put your belief systems to test?

Hi Hanna,
I don’t teach anything, I just give my opinion (based as much as possible on the facts I know and logical inferences) and tell what I do and saw in view of helping others. I may be wrong; please don't believe me and feel free to do and test whatever you like.

Quote
Carnivore told that he tried instincto and that instincto didn´t help him either. Apropos carnivore, he isn´t signed in to the forum any longer, so he can´t defend himself.

Did I attack Carnivore here ? Do you consider this as a personal attack ?
I also witnessed the experiment of our friend “Carnivore” with his damned meat grinder doing the hell of a noise. He apparently ate so much meat and meat only during so long that in the end he grew tired, bored and lazy of chewing it. So, by grinding it, he could still easily eat exclusively meat for some more months.

Himself told me he’s lazy to chew. And anyway at the time I wrote that I hadn’t noticed he’s no longer a member here. He’s probably well done and perhaps I should do the same, so I won’t have to answer to hostile and unfriendly attack s anymore. Yes, he tried his own kind of instincto without meat and without daily intake of animal food >D, as has already been  largely discussed and commented here.

Quote
Almost any variety of fruit we eat is entirely neolithic. I bet that all the dates, oranges etc. rawfooders often eat are much more detrimental than, say, thinly sliced (i . e. "mechanically denatured") meat, diced vegetable or even sauerkraut. Food processing is nothing specifically neolithic; in paleo times cooking was already widespread.

You’re right, it seems cooking appeared during middle Paleolithic or a little before and it was probably widespread in the upper Paleolithic already. Yes, most of the fruits varieties we have now have been drastically selected and therefore we should be careful with them, and yes again “mechanical denaturation”is doubtlessly not a great nuisance. Sauerkraut neither if it’s made without vinegar – is it usually the case? I don’t know, but I remember that I didn’t like it as it had a vinegar taste or something alike.

Cheers
Francois
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline TylerDurden

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« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2010, 08:04:03 pm »
I do wish people wouldn't blindly refer to fruit as  being "neolithic". The simple fact is that if one uses this wholly arbitrary designation, then one would have to admit, if one was remotely honest, that raw grassfed meats from farms are wholly "neolithic" too as the raw meat comes from animals which have been heavily inbred for millenia to produce vastly oversized udders etc. so that modern animals bear little resemblance to their wild palaeolithic counterparts and are much lower in quality.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

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« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2010, 08:12:48 pm »
Exactly, I was about to write it but I didn't for the shake of succinctness. Thanks, to have highlighted that.


Francois
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Hanna

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« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2010, 05:45:12 pm »
Sorry, Francois, I didn´t want to annoy you.

Re sauerkraut: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauerkraut
I tried it several years ago; it is salted and there was no clear alliesthetic stop. But I did not notice any serious negative effect from eating raw sauerkraut, whereas eating too much dates or other fruit high in sugar usually has negative effects in my case.

Offline Iguana

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« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2010, 05:56:51 pm »
No problem !  ;)

Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

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« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2010, 03:37:27 am »
I do wish people wouldn't blindly refer to fruit as  being "neolithic". The simple fact is that if one uses this wholly arbitrary designation, then one would have to admit, if one was remotely honest, that raw grassfed meats from farms are wholly "neolithic" too as the raw meat comes from animals which have been heavily inbred for millenia to produce vastly oversized udders etc. so that modern animals bear little resemblance to their wild palaeolithic counterparts and are much lower in quality.

I do wish that people wouldn't blindly refer to the Raw Paleo paradigm as a dogma. This would prevent us from being fooled and trapped into ridiculous contradictions like the one your refer to above. Everything (we included) has more or less evolved since paleo times whether one likes it or not and Raw Paleo paradigm should be viewed only as an interesting general idea and guideline, nothing more.

It is wrong to believe that everything is a priori good if paleo and bad if neolithic. We have to evolve and find out what works and what doesn't work generations after generations. As all mutations are not systematically detrimental in biology and evolution but may sometimes provide new capabilities and make a new living and contribute to evolution, all neolithic inventions re food should not necessarily be rejected and sometimes one of them may be even advantageous rather than systematically be detrimental, fermented food being an example. We have to find out and cannot stop evolution anyway.

Keeping this always in mind would also urge us to more systematically experiment and avoid to state or teach occasional nonsense or simply unproven babble and talk about things we don't really know anything about as the funny example of Iguana's  exchanges with Hanna, because of his dogmatic sticking to instincto stance, nicely demonstrates above in this thread.  

 

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