Author Topic: Chelation therapy using DMSA / ALA  (Read 17212 times)

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Offline Michael

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Chelation therapy using DMSA / ALA
« on: September 20, 2010, 05:08:36 am »
I've been eating a RAF based diet now for 10 years and have seen hugely significant improvements in my health.  However, I'm still not in as good health as I would like and suspect that underlying problems such as low stomach acid, candida, possible absorption issues etc remain an issue due to previous heavy metal poisoning (primarily due to dental amalgam).

I first read the work of Andy Cutler PhD over 10 years ago following removal of all of my amalgam fillings in Germany (before it was recognised in the UK).  At the time, I spent a brief period 'playing' with chelation following his protocol with the use of DMSA and ALA.  But, suffering extreme health difficulties at the time and unable to afford the supplements due to my inability to work I didn't continue the program.

I think my signifiant health improvements following a RAF diet has been partly due to a natural chelation provided by the diet (muscle meats, liver and heart supply plentiful amounts of ALA as far as I'm aware).  As I'm now much stronger physically, I'm considering resuming a serious attempt at chelation therapy following Andy Cutler's protocol.

Does anyone here have much experience of this before or, even, since following a RAF diet?  I think my diet will cover most bases so am simply considering supplementing with a program of 100mg DMSA / 100mg ALA every 4 every hours  for 3 days of each week (4 days off).  This is to be continued for 12 - 36 months to ensure removal of all mercury and lead.

Any thoughts?
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Offline kurite

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Re: Chelation therapy using DMSA / ALA
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2010, 09:59:55 am »
I know this isn't the answer to your question but have you tried water fasting? I just had my first experience with it and all the problems that RAF didn't completely get rid of are now totally gone.
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Offline Taste Sense

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Re: Chelation therapy using DMSA / ALA
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2010, 10:27:01 am »
Hi Michael,

I have some similar issues with heavy metals and familiar with Cutler's protocol so I'll chime in. I've been doing his protocol for over 2 years now and currently at 25mg of DMSA and 250mg of ALA. I started at 25mg of each. DMSA is pretty expensive and so I have not upped the dose since the beginning of the protocol. Cutler also writes that it is not necessary but still believes that it is better and safer to take both. DMSA also chelates lead. I also used to take a bunch of supplements advised by Cutler along with chelation but now don't take any. As for improvements I've noticed that my mood is better and I can fall asleep easier. Before the chelation I had bad insomnia and was pretty depressed. Also now I do not react to the chelation all that much and can continue do go on for up to 3 weeks on at a time and then a month off. Cutler writes that longer rounds are preferred if you can tolerate them, since they remove more mercury, and there is less frequency of distributions. He him self did long rounds. He does not advice to go any higher than a 100 mg for some reason. I plan on increasing the ALA even further at 50mg at a time increase. How much higher? I don't know but a dose of 500 mg of ALA every 3 hours does not scare me one bit. Also Cutles is clear that ALA must be taken every 3 hours around the clock not 4. So make sure you take it every 3 hours with the DMSA. He does say that you can take it every 4 at night though if you don't get enough RAM sleep. It sounds like you're ready to get back in the game. 36 months sounds like a plan, but it would not surprise me if it takes twice that much, since the heavy metal removal is such a lengthy process. Judging by myself and how much chelation I've done I am nowhere near where I want to be, so I'll persevere and remain patient. I also have no stomach acid as HCI pills don't do a thing to me and I have horrible raw meat digestion. I wonder how where you able to eat raw meats with candida and low stomach acid?

Offline miles

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Re: Chelation therapy using DMSA / ALA
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2010, 11:31:02 am »
I know this isn't the answer to your question but have you tried water fasting? I just had my first experience with it and all the problems that RAF didn't completely get rid of are now totally gone.

How long did you fast for? Can you tell me in detail about your experience?
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Offline kurite

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Re: Chelation therapy using DMSA / ALA
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2010, 12:16:30 pm »
How long did you fast for? Can you tell me in detail about your experience?
I did a rather short one. Only 5 days. I did it to get rid of my acne and the rest of my eczema. By day 3 basically all my symptoms had totally disapeared but I decided to keep fasting for a little longer just in case. It was simple each day I drank about a gallon of water through out the day. After day 2 I was pretty hungry but I if I was distracted I didn't really notice the hunger. So far my acne and eczema have not returned.
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Re: Chelation therapy using DMSA / ALA
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2010, 04:35:40 pm »
I know of alternative medicine doctors here in Manila who practice that on a regular basis.
Last I heard it was P 3,000 a session.
They also do a hair analysis before and after.
I'm sure you have equivalent people in the UK.


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Offline Michael

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Re: Chelation therapy using DMSA / ALA
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2010, 06:40:19 pm »
Thanks for your thoughts guys.

Kurite - Interesting to read of your water fasting experiences and glad that you've enjoyed such wonderful results.  Unfortunately, I don't think this holds the solution to the remaining issues I have.  But, I have had some wonderful experiences with fasting in general.  I've completed various long fasts including my longest water only fast of 13 days, and two scientific fasts lasting up to 56 days (www.fasting.com for more info).  My first serious long fast (56 days) was undertaken when I was about 26yrs old and was particularly incredible.  It left me feeling the best I'd ever felt in my life but, still on an imperfect diet at the time, the gains did slowly dissipated and the impact of such extreme measures were felt for a number of years.

Taste Sense -
Many thanks for sharing your experiences with chelation.  That's really useful information to me and wonderful to read!  I must admit that after such a long and committed chelation regime, I'm a little disappointed to learn that your gains have not been more extraordinary.  Have you noticed the subsidence of any other related symptoms besides the insomnia and depression? In addition to those I've already mentioned, brain fog/difficulty concentrating/memory issues are still a problem to me.  I've suffered lifelong insomnia and episodes of depression but I'm glad to tell you that, as has been your experience, these are no longer problems.  It's still incredible to me that I can fall asleep easily at night now and don't wake so frequently.

It's interesting that you suffer similar issues with stomach acid.  My digestion is something that has improved eating RPD but I still need to be careful what I eat.  I have certainly noticed that symptoms improve the more I move towards an exclusive meat/fat diet.  Fruit/Veg/carbs generally just cause problems.  I am still taking Solgar  Betaine Hydrochloride with meals - usually up to 10 tablets per meal.  I've never experienced burning with them so am not sure what my ceiling would be with taking them.  But, any more than 10 seems excessive and, not to mention, expensive!  The raw meats do seem to digest fine now but, I guess, this has been a gradual improvement over the years.

Yes, I'd read that DMSA also chelates lead.  In fact, I recall reading PubMed studies detailing that it was actually far more powerful for this purpose than it was mercury!  I understand that it's used in medical emergencies for such poisoning in children.  I've also read that it's used as a means of conducting medical kidney scans as it only adheres to healthy tissue so, coupled with it's (rather worrying!) radioactive attributes, it can be used to highlight areas of damaged kidney tissue.

I've read that, in addition to safety, it's also best to use DMSA/ALA together as ALA can breach the blood-brain barrier whereas DMSA cannot.  So, ALA is required to get heavy metals out of the brain.  It's useful to read of your experiences with dosages and timing schedules, thanks.  I didn't realise it was important to use the ALA every 3 hours.  As I understand it, ALA has a half-life of 2.5-3.5 hours which would explain the rationale for this advice.

Keep up the great work with your chelation!  I hope the improvements continue and that you're able to increase your raw meat intake as time goes on.  This would, I'm sure, greatly enhance any gains you make.  I'm looking forward to getting back in the game myself soon!


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2. Greed and fear are poor states of mind in which to make decisions; like shopping at the supermarket when you are hungry.
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Offline Michael

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Re: Chelation therapy using DMSA / ALA
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2010, 03:40:27 am »
Another thought Taste Sense.  You mentioned starting out and remaining on a 25mg dose of DMSA whilst Cutler's book suggests 50-100mg.  Is your much-reduced dose mainly for financial reasons?  Certainly 100mg every 3-4 hours can work out rather expensive!!  I've been searching the net for a cheap source of pure DMSA powder in bulk but haven't had much luck beyond the expensive bottles of 25-50mg capsules.

Do you think this low dosage of DMSA is partly responsible for the length of time it's taken for you to see a reduction in symptoms?  It's interesting, particularly, when taken in the context that you're also taking much higher doses of ALA than Cutler suggests!  With the ALA being responsible for pulling the metals out of your brain, I would expect this to be the reason that your main improvements have been depression and insomnia - both of which are closely linked with brain chemistry.
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2. Greed and fear are poor states of mind in which to make decisions; like shopping at the supermarket when you are hungry.
3. Exponential growth is mathematically unsustainable.

Offline Taste Sense

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Re: Chelation therapy using DMSA / ALA
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2010, 03:44:38 am »
Michael,
Yea  I am too disappointed that the process of chelation is taking longer than I thought, and hence costing me more than I planned.  But there is no denying that I have gained  many positives as a result of chelation, now that I think about it. I take my words back for making it sound like it was all for nothing. Here's the physical benefits:

-Waking up is much easier. Before chelation waking up was a torture. Partly due to not getting enough sleep because of insomnia, but I also think it is due to the new leached out mercury over the night.

-Weird red rash on the forehead gone. Every morning right when I get up and rush to the mirror I would notice some red dots on my forehead, where hippopotamus is located. They would clear up as the day went on, but always made me wonder what they were. Oh doctors were clueless of course.

-Dizziness is less frequent. Whenever I would suddenly get up from sitting or laying down I would get really dizzy. After a shower too. I also would get a feeling like my head is spinning while laying down all the while feeling nauseous.  I still get them but much rarer now, maybe like once every few months. I think it is due to the irreversible brain damage.

-Less tired. I would be so tired always that I could not accomplish anything in a day and frequently took naps. I think this has also something to do with bad sleep at night. Now I am much more energetic and nap only occasionally, after a large meal or something.

And now mental:

-Brain fog/difficulty concentrating/memory is much better. I  remember that in high school I thought that I was a retard since I could not comprehend a paragraph. It got progressively worse until amalgam removal. It gotten progressively better after chelation. Now I am college grad from top school and I am going back for more this fall, although not for the education but for the professional training. You mentioned that those symptoms are still an issue for you, so I think that you need to chelate more with ALA, otherwise they will not clear up.

-OCD diminished. I would always get these thoughts, basically to do the most inappropriate thing for each situation. Like if I met someone, I would think about making out with them right away. If I saw anyone cross the street, to run them over. If I was getting helped with anything to tell them to buzz off instead of thanking them, etc. I barely think like that now and can't believe I was like that most of the time.

-Anxiety and fear reduced. This has been a big problem for me and although I had not seen too much improvement in this area yet, a reduction is still noticeable.


As for DMSA, yea it is partly for financial reasons but also because I believe that at the moment there is no need for me to go any higher than 25mg. When I chelated without DMSA, my rounds were tough and I could not tolerate them for very long. With DMSA they're much smoother and I've noticed no difference with each increment of ALA. However, I will increase DMSA dosage if I notice any redistribution symptoms as I go higher with ALA. I really don't think that a low dose of DMSA is a factor in my slow recovery. Cutler is clear that DMSA is not necessary for mercury, in other words ALA will chelate all mercury from the body and the brain. But I found in my experience similar to his that DMSA made my chelation rounds much more tolerable. Also in my experience it was really hard measuring powdered DMSA or ALA into exact dosages and I suffered redistribution problems because of that. I learned that when it comes to heavy metal removal I do not want to play around with measurements. If you're looking to afford DMSA, I would wait or call in and ask guys at Vitamin Research Product for sale of DMSA. Their 25mg DMSA bottle comes with 120 capsules and that usually lasts me 2 weeks of ON rounds. Some people only do 12.5 mg or less of DMSA on their rounds, so I would assumethat they save even more.

P.S. I don't know if you read the silly AV comment on chelation in his “We want to live” book, then that's how I know his full of it. He even recommends eating most mercury laden fish like sword fish to chelate old mercury. That nonsense actually hurts people who blindly follow him. He obviously tried every cure, done every supplement, ate every diet and knows everything. The raw diet GURU AV :)

Offline Michael

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Re: Chelation therapy using DMSA / ALA
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2010, 04:13:42 am »
Thanks for your further input TasteSense.

I greatly appreciate your advice on this bearing in mind your own experiences and already, I think, this is valuable information to me.  That's good to know about the DMSA role and dosage.  I didn't realise Cutler had stated that it was not necessary to use it or that it was mainly used to help make the chelation more tolerable.  I do need to re-read my Amalgam Illness book before commencing any program.  In this case, I will probably heed your advice and take only a low dose of the DMSA - certainly to begin with.  It will certainly make the long-term nature of the therapy more financially viable.

Thanks also for the warning about the use of using bulk powder.  Again, this is really good to know!  In that case I will certainly only use the commercially available capsules.

It's good to hear that, in fact, you have observed other positive gains from your chelation so far.  Many of the physical and mental symptoms you describe are recognisable to me and I can entirely empathise with you for the suffering they must've caused.  Great that you've seen improvements in all of these areas!!  I must admit, RPD alone has greatly improved all of these areas for me too although they are not entirely cured by any means.

It seems that we BOTH have much to look forward to!  I, for the gains I should make from further chelation therapy and, you, for the further gains you will undoubtedly make as you progress with your RPD!  I'm positive that we will BOTH achieve great health as desired in time.

Keep me posted on your progress TasteSense (via this thread or PM) and I will do the same.

PS  Yes, I've read AVs books and, though thankful that it was via him that I moved towards RPD, I'm not a great believer in much of the nonsense he preaches.  His stance and recommendations on mercury are certainly an example of this.  I didn't realise that he actually RECOMMENDS eating mercury-laden fish, however! Hmmmm...
1. When offered something that is too good to be true. It is.
2. Greed and fear are poor states of mind in which to make decisions; like shopping at the supermarket when you are hungry.
3. Exponential growth is mathematically unsustainable.

Offline Taste Sense

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Re: Chelation therapy using DMSA / ALA
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2010, 12:54:26 pm »
That book “Amalgam Illness” is a great book. I don't own it but got it from the library and read it. Most of it was unclear to me initially so I searched the web and stumbled onto a few forums that were really helpful. So majority of what I learned was though talking to others that were also doing Cutler's protocol. Cutler also makes guest appearances on discussion boards and answers all the questions, unlike AV who's only concerned with charging 300 $ an hour for his services, and who never or rarely replies for free. What a scam artist AV is indeed. Now, with chelation Cutler is clear that there is no reason for anyone with heavy metal problem to wait to chelate once the amalgams are out. He says that the longer one waits the worse off one will be. I'll paraphrase what he said: “Chelate, chelate, and chelate, and once you think you've had enough, chelate some more...
It's ecouraging to hear that RPD has by itself healed you quite a bit. I hope it will do the same for me, but for now I am stuck with candida that is carb hungry and raw meat averse. Cutler is clear that most people with candida have more mental problems, and more brain mercury, so until they chelate heavily with ALA, candida will not go away no matter what they eat. AV says that candida is good of course and should not be touched, - what a joke a AV is. So until I get candida under control I am afraid I am stuck with eating processed food... But yea lets keep this thread going on each other's progress. Our issues are somewhat related so it would be interesting to see how we recover whilst keeping the dialogue on this thread. The bigger it gets the more  the search engines will recognize it for having  information on chelation, and the more people who look for it stumble onto here.

Offline Michael

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Re: Chelation therapy using DMSA / ALA
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2010, 12:50:49 am »
Yes, it's a brilliant book which has graced my bookshelves for many years and moved from home to home in my many house moves since I bought it.  I'd certainly recommend purchasing yourself a copy if you can afford it.

Funny enough, if I recall correctly, some of the metal detox and chelation forums/discussion boards was where I originally became aware of Cutler.  I think it was on one of the Yahoo groups that I corresponded with him directly all those years ago.  He came across as incredibly generous and genuine in his desire to help others but takes no prisoners!  :)  I agree with your comments about AV.  The very fact that he charges (astronomical amounts too!) for everything he does (consults, workshops, email/phone consults etc) makes me question his integrity.

Interesting to hear of Cutler's latest thoughts and philosophy.  I am now feeling that I need to 'chelate, chelate, chelate' and stop wasting any more time.  It will be really useful to us both, I think, to keep in touch here about our progress.

I'm now looking into ordering some ALA/DMSA and will be taking your advice to focus on the ALA.  I'll probably follow your example with the 25mg DMSA dosage and start with 100mg ALA.  It's still looking rather expensive to buy mainly ALA capsules so I'm leaning towards bulk powder again!  :)  What do you think of this place TS? http://purebulk.com/alpha-lipoic-acid-ala-c-192.  They sell 1kg bulk ALA powder for $120 which, by my reckoning, would be equivalent to 3,871 250mg ALA caps?!!!!  They also sell bulk Betaine HCl powder.  I'm seriously considering importing these items from them and their International shipping rates seem reasonable.  Perhaps they're worth you checking out too?  I seem to recall Cutler stating the importance of not obsessing about the dosages anyway so any slight inaccuracies resulting from measuring out the powder with good quality measuring spoons would seem harmless.

RPD has healed me a great deal and, I'm positive, it will do so for you too TS.  Despite your candida issues, I strongly urge you to persist with moving towards an RPD diet now.  Raw, natural, paleo foods are far easier for your body to digest, assimilate and utilise than any processed junk and I don't really understand how you'd consider processed foods as your only option until candida is resolved.  The Hypoclorhydria may make it more difficult to digest meats but you should be able to support this by keeping the meal sizes down and supplementing with sufficient Betaine HCl.  I suspect that it would also help to eat very little fruit/veg and stick to a VLC/ZC regime.  I'm happy to answer any questions you may have or help in any way I can!

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2. Greed and fear are poor states of mind in which to make decisions; like shopping at the supermarket when you are hungry.
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Offline Taste Sense

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Re: Chelation therapy using DMSA / ALA
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2010, 05:37:59 am »
Wow it looks like a a great deal to me. Nice find Michael. Have you ordered from them before? My only concern is the taste and measurement of the powder. I tasted both ALA and Betaine without the filler and it was horrifically distasteful. ALA made me cough and Betaine burned my throat. Also how much of the powder to take is the question. For instance I have both 100mg and 250mg capsules of ALA at home, and they are of the same size, but differ in their concentration. So with powder how much should I  ingest to equal 250mg? You right Cutler said not to obsess over dosages, but the way I interpreted it was that one should spend less time worrying about the dosages and more time chelating. I remember a person asking him about the powdered form and Cutler answered that  he doesn't know since he never did it himself.

Thanks for encouraging me to get on with my RPD. I admit a slacked a bit and must get back in shape. I shall return to my journal and continue my journey there. My candida is out of control right now and I am currently sick with flu because of a recent heavy carb binge. I went on a rampage and ate lots and lots of starchy carby foods and got what I deserved. Candida was sure happy but my health degraded. I made a promise to myself to stop being so irrational with food. I don't understand what is it with with  these carb addicts defending carbs so much. I sufferer every time I eat them, but I am not going to lie to myself that they're good for me. A carb is a carb no matter where you're at. Anyway lets leave this thread to it's intent and talk some more about the evil carbs, RPD, and staff in my journal.

Offline Michael

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Re: Chelation therapy using DMSA / ALA
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2010, 12:51:39 am »
I haven't tried ordering from them before but will do so soon!  I'll let you know how I get on.

I've read about the unpleasant taste/effect of taking the powdered form but intend mixing it with water.  I'm sure it can't be too unpleasant.  I've done so many things over the years in the name of regaining health that little phases me now.  The Pure Bulk website gave some useful information regarding dose sizes.  If you find and view the information on ALA on their website you'll see 3 pictures at the top allowing you to enlarge label details etc.  The 3rd image, volumetric equivalents, offers some suggestions.  1/8 teaspoon, for example, is equivalent to 0.62cc or 243mg.  It should be easy enough to work out what's required.  They even sell some seemingly good quality stainless steel measuring spoons! :)

Sorry to hear you're having difficulties with the candida TS.  It's a difficult monster to tame and I can certainly tell you that I've been in the same place only too often.  Just know that you'll get there eventually.  No need to put unnecessary pressure on yourself.  Each day is an opportunity to start again and improve on the previous.  At least you're not living in the land of denial.  That can be the most difficult obstacle to overcome in regaining one's health!

I'll take a look at your journal...

1. When offered something that is too good to be true. It is.
2. Greed and fear are poor states of mind in which to make decisions; like shopping at the supermarket when you are hungry.
3. Exponential growth is mathematically unsustainable.

Offline raw-al

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Re: Chelation therapy using DMSA / ALA
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2010, 06:52:36 am »
Just Reading Ultramind Solution which covers this topic. Will report on it when I am finished.
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