Author Topic: The Dangers of Cooked Optimal Diet  (Read 8941 times)

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Offline TylerDurden

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The Dangers of Cooked Optimal Diet
« on: November 17, 2010, 01:44:39 am »
Here's a comment on the Optimal Diet(naturally take with a pinch of salt):-

http://perfecthealthdiet.com/?p=1077
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 07:32:29 pm by TylerDurden »
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline ForTheHunt

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Re: Dangers of RZC part II
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2010, 02:18:55 am »
Super informative thanks for sharing.

Also I enjoyed reading the comments below.
Take everyones advice with a grain of salt. Try things out for your self and then make up your mind.

Offline Coatue

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Re: Dangers of RZC part II
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2010, 03:50:36 am »
Yeah this was definitely interesting. I've been trying all meat (1 organ, some back fat, and stew lean meat) and I've noticed that my eye become blood shot and dry afterwards. Interestingly enough, that is what every one commented about. Hmmm...they seem to also suggest rice and potatoes and people seem to feel better with this. But that isnt paleo! What the hell? This article seems to state that it isn't healthy and that fruit isnt a good carb source.

Offline michaelwh

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Re: Dangers of RZC part II
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2010, 09:14:27 am »
One factor that they didn't mention, is that the optimal diet consists of well-cooked food only. Kwasniewski explicitly says something along the lines "all food should be well-cooked, both animal and plant". This is said for religious, rather than scientific reasons -- cooking is what distinguishes humans from animals. This is about as "anti-raw" as it gets. Wrangham's and Stefansson's opinions are at least based on science/observation.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Dangers of RZC part II
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2010, 09:49:26 am »
Actually, even Wrangham has openly admitted that he has no real evidence to support his theories, he is merely hopeful. And Stefansson made several past claims, which other sources such as Weston-Price have proven to be dead wrong.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Dangers of COOKED - Optimal Diet
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2010, 10:05:15 am »
I gave up on my COOKED Homo Optimus Diet / Optimal Diet experiment after 1 month.
I have it in my blog somewhere.
I felt very bad.
I went back to RAW paleo diet.

RAW IS ALWAYS DIFFERENT.

Subject is misleading, it should say:

Dangers of COOKED - Optimal Diet
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Offline kurite

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Re: Dangers of RZC part II
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2010, 10:35:28 am »
Can someone tell me what the optimal diet is?
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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Dangers of RZC part II
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2010, 10:37:39 am »
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Offline a87.pal

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Re: Dangers of RZC part II
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2010, 11:09:29 am »
I think that just stresses the importance of consuming some form of non fructose carbs, whether liver, or cooked tubers, or milk. And the importance of drinking a ton of water.

Offline actup

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Re: Dangers of RZC part II
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2010, 11:26:54 am »
hmm my eyes seem fine. I can't say I agree with that article at all. the only carbs I am getting are from honey, one glass of cream/ milk a day, and occasional veggie juices. I had some sprouted wild rice last week. other than that just four legged creatures and some fatty turkey. I wonder where the desire to burn comes from... you guys think it is just fear?

Offline kurite

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Re: Dangers of RZC part II
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2010, 11:34:44 am »
http://homodiet.netfirms.com/
So its really focused more on macro nutrients rather than types of food? I am way to tired to actually explore the site.
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Offline michaelwh

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Re: Dangers of RZC part II
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2010, 12:11:13 pm »
This article seems to state that it isn't healthy and that fruit isnt a good carb source.

I think that just stresses the importance of consuming some form of non fructose carbs, whether liver, or cooked tubers, or milk. And the importance of drinking a ton of water.

What's wrong with fruit, or "fructose carbs"?

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Dangers of RZC part II
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2010, 12:22:49 pm »
Some people equate fruit carbohydrates with high fructose corn syrup.

Which I think is a mistake.

If people get blood sugar spikes with all fruit, then they have a nutritional deficiency problem which can be corrected by eating some raw bitter melon every day.

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Offline Hannibal

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Re: Dangers of RZC part II
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2010, 04:34:53 pm »
So its really focused more on macro nutrients rather than types of food? I am way to tired to actually explore the site.
Yeah, the ratio between protein, fat and carbs is crucial - 1:2,5-3,5:0,5-0,8.
The OD is based upon well-cooked fatty parts of pork muscle-meats and pork organ-meats, yolks and fatty dairy. The main source of carbs are potatoes and some veggies.
Do you blame vultures for the carcass they eat?
Livin' off the raw grass fat of the land

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Dangers of RZC part II
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2010, 05:19:38 pm »
Hey Tyler,  Can you change the topic to say The Dangers of Cooked Optimal Diet or Cooked VLC.

Saying RZC is misleading.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: The Dangers of Cooked Optimal Diet
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2010, 07:34:46 pm »
OK, but those 2 articles were basically talking about the same thing re too few or no carbs causing issues like constipation, so it may or may not  apply to RZC as well, given that 2 long-term RZCers mentioned constipation as a side-effect.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Offline Hannibal

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Re: The Dangers of Cooked Optimal Diet
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2010, 08:40:02 pm »
OK, but those 2 articles were basically talking about the same thing 
Exactly.
The mucin deficiency is caused by too little carbs and protein in one's diet.
It doesn't matter if the diet is raw, cooked, based upon pork or lamb - these drawbacks are the same if the diet is unbalanced.
Raw ZC is better than cooked one, but still harmful.
Do you blame vultures for the carcass they eat?
Livin' off the raw grass fat of the land

Offline a87.pal

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Re: Dangers of RZC part II
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2010, 11:33:18 pm »
What's wrong with fruit, or "fructose carbs"?


Honestly, I don't think fructose is a big deal in the short term (if it is not a regular part of your diet). Although, as goodsamartin mentioned, there may be supplemental herbs to reduce symptoms (if you even get any) which would allow you to eat larger amounts of fructose.

The theory for why fructose is bad, is simply a relationship between insulin response to different energy sources. Fat is the lowest, then protein, then glucose, then fructose (there are probably more energy sources that belong on this list).

A high insulin response is correlated with other health issues. The PaNu and hyperlipid blogs talk more about the specifics.

One question I have, is what are other animal sources of carbs? I know you can get some from liver, in the form of glycogen, but how much?

Offline miles

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Re: Dangers of RZC part II
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2010, 11:56:13 pm »
I think that just stresses the importance of consuming some form of non fructose carbs, whether liver, or cooked tubers, or milk. And the importance of drinking a ton of water.

Most fruit has around 50/50 glucose/fructose...

Exactly.
The mucin deficiency is caused by too little carbs and protein in one's diet.
It doesn't matter if the diet is raw, cooked, based upon pork or lamb - these drawbacks are the same if the diet is unbalanced.
Raw ZC is better than cooked one, but still harmful.

No, it would just mean that one eating no plants would have to eat plenty of meat...

One question I have, is what are other animal sources of carbs? I know you can get some from liver, in the form of glycogen, but how much?

Fresh meat, protein...
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Offline Hannibal

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Re: Dangers of RZC part II
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2010, 07:36:39 am »
No, it would just mean that one eating no plants would have to eat plenty of meat...
And that has its own drawbacks
Do you blame vultures for the carcass they eat?
Livin' off the raw grass fat of the land

Offline Hannibal

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Re: Dangers of RZC part II
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2010, 07:41:02 am »
One question I have, is what are other animal sources of carbs?
Very fresh meat with its own glycogen.
Variety of organ-meats.
Egg yolks.
Do you blame vultures for the carcass they eat?
Livin' off the raw grass fat of the land

Offline KD

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Re: The Dangers of Cooked Optimal Diet
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2010, 09:42:16 am »
Exactly.
The mucin deficiency is caused by too little carbs and protein in one's diet.
It doesn't matter if the diet is raw, cooked, based upon pork or lamb - these drawbacks are the same if the diet is unbalanced.
Raw ZC is better than cooked one, but still harmful.

I have to admit although I've done some research on OD in the past, I've never heard of these kind of dangers from a low protein/carb diet. I'm curious how you know for certain that many of these issues are not exacerbated by the nature of the foods included. I mean as you started to list, and with traditional ketogenic diets (neither of which are actually ZC) the selections are pretty over the top in terms of daily consumption.

it also seems to imply just doubling the already extremely low protein amount could be all that is needed, although it suggests additional carbs would be preferable. FWIW this 'new' protein amount seems to be on average still lower than most people here following ZC or VLC and consciously monitoring their protein intake somewhat.

I'm definitely one of those VLC folks who really digs on carbs even if can avoid them for weeks without craving or other issue. I vibe more with omnivory as an identity and concept and I would probably add more carbs if I felt good doing so and believed it to be the best for my long term health. My strategy is to get the largest variety over the year (including seaweeds, fruits, wild plants, organic greens, various mushrooms) from a nutritional standpoint, and spaced out enough to enjoy the metabolic or healing advantages I presently believe associated with VLC. I do heed alot of the concerns at times tho, particularly when in a pinch it doesn't seem I can handle certain types of foods well or in abundance. I guess coming from raw veg days where this is a sign of 'cleanliness' I become skeptical when types raw natural food cannot be switched on and off alot easier.

anyway, don't have a solid opinion but those are my thoughts. I do think the title is a bit off per that study but its a good conversation to have nonetheless in relation to these macro nutrients.

Offline dsohei

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Re: The Dangers of Cooked Optimal Diet
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2010, 07:37:19 am »
isn't it true that by eating a hi-protein, hi-fat diet, some of the protein converts to carbs in our body? although that mechanism may be damaged due to metabolic derangement or  overstressed organ systems.

Offline actup

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Re: The Dangers of Cooked Optimal Diet
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2010, 09:54:11 am »
isn't it true that by eating a hi-protein, hi-fat diet, some of the protein converts to carbs in our body? although that mechanism may be damaged due to metabolic derangement or  overstressed organ systems.

I think protein burns just as easy, but they can be used for regeneration as carbs are just energy. Fat took a little while to relearn how to burn but I love it now. I have always been hyperactive, with fat I now have the stable energy to put it to good use. Instead of jittering.

Offline michaelwh

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Re: The Dangers of Cooked Optimal Diet
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2010, 11:23:44 am »
The saga continues:

http://perfecthealthdiet.com/?p=1139
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/?p=1177

Interesting articles, but very biased. There are many zero-carbers who don't get scurvy. He should have explained why. If I recall correctly, it has something to do with hydroxylysine and hydroxyproline being obtained directly from meat and used for collagen production.

 

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