Author Topic: Is Aajonus trustworthy?  (Read 25432 times)

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Offline dsohei

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Re: Is Aajonus trustworthy?
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2010, 06:26:36 am »
so i dont know a lot about your condition, but it also seems like youre also unsure of what it definitely is. the gas-x seems like a problem, in the same way tylenol is not actually helpful against pain, merely treating a symptom and creating side effects.
i also dont see how raw veggies and raw meat are similar in any way.
plant fiber and protein is completely different from raw meat protein and fat, which has no fiber.
in the wild, man can thrive on raw meat, but not at all on raw plants. it seems like your fear, pain and definition of the word "raw" is limiting your options.
if digestion of fats is the problem, the suyper enzymes (with subtitute stomach acid betaine HCL, and ox bile) and the enzyme LIPASE will help with, as that is what people with a removed gallbladder have to take to digest fats, having no more bile salts.
i know that when i eat mainly carbs, i always feel full and bloated (and still hungry re: leptin malfunction) because the bad bacteria is outgassing and i also get candida symptoms. sugar feeds bacteria...

Offline risrosen

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Re: Is Aajonus trustworthy?
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2010, 06:40:51 am »
It seems to me that it's kind of a maxim in raw food circles that raw food is easier to digest because all the enzymes are intact.  That's only one aspect of what makes for digestive ease.  There's the issue of breaking the food down so it can be digested in the first place.  Raw food simply isn't broken down, or whatever it is that happens when heat is applied.  Cooking renders food easier for the stomach to process, without question.  Raw foods are much easier for people with impaired stomachs to process.  The only exception is ripe fruit.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Is Aajonus trustworthy?
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2010, 06:41:54 am »
Have you done any colon cleanses?
When and what types of colon cleanses?
If not, then you should.

I know.  I find him kind of preposterous, and yet I'm thinking of turning to him.  But I would certainly take everything he says with a dose of salt and proceed as cautiously as a desperate person can.  If he said to eat something that made me feel relentlessly bad, I wouldn't continue it.  

Aajonus is a healer.  
I am a healer myself, thanks to his works.
Although I follow my own path with his teachings included.
He's not preposterous.  
Aajonus' stuff works.
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Offline risrosen

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Re: Is Aajonus trustworthy?
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2010, 06:52:25 am »
I have had some colonics but not a systematic program of them.  I'm not sure how a clean colon would affect the gastroparesis issue.  I'm not saying it wouldn't, but I was severely constipated for a long time, and the relief of it through the fermented milk diet has been the one good thing that's happened to me.  I'd be really leery of wiping out all of that bacteria.  I'm not sure how easily I could get it back.  I'm digging my heels in about this, though, and I would like to learn more.

I'm giving your orange juice fast suggestion a try now.

Thanks to everyone for dialoguing with me about this today, by the way.  It's probably saved me from doing anything drastic.  (I'm not closing the dialogue, just want to add that.)
« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 07:00:35 am by risrosen »

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Is Aajonus trustworthy?
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2010, 07:04:34 am »
I have had some colonics but not a systematic program of them.  I'm not sure how a clean colon would affect the gastroparesis issue.  I'm not saying it wouldn't, but I was severely constipated for a long time, and the relief of it through the fermented milk diet has been the one good thing that's happened to me.  I'd be really leery of wiping out all of that bacteria.  I'm not sure how easily I could get it back.  I'm digging my heels in about this, though, and I would like to learn more.

I'm giving your orange juice fast suggestion a try now.

Thanks to everyone for dialoguing with me about this today, by the way.  It's probably saved me from doing anything drastic.  (I'm not closing the dialogue, just want to add that.)

You need a herbal colon cleanser like barefootherbalist.com LBB
Or Colosan
Or Oxypowder
Or Castor Oil

In my country, the best one is Dr. Tam's Miracle tea.

Colon cleansing is the first and most important thing chronically constipated people need to do.  Then, everything will be fine, easier, faster.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Is Aajonus trustworthy?
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2010, 07:11:12 am »
It seems to me that it's kind of a maxim in raw food circles that raw food is easier to digest because all the enzymes are intact.  That's only one aspect of what makes for digestive ease.  There's the issue of breaking the food down so it can be digested in the first place.  Raw food simply isn't broken down, or whatever it is that happens when heat is applied.  Cooking renders food easier for the stomach to process, without question.  Raw foods are much easier for people with impaired stomachs to process.  The only exception is ripe fruit.
  Incorrect. Cooking makes food less digestible. There are various scientific studies on meat protein by Oste et al which show that cooking makes protein in meats LESS digestible , not more. Iguana also recently made a post where he indicated that heat renders  the molecules in food much less digestible by the budy's natural enzymes and acids.
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" Ron Paul.

Offline risrosen

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Re: Is Aajonus trustworthy?
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2010, 07:50:55 am »
Okay, then explain to me why I've been eating 4-6 ounces of cooked meat per meal, for meals in which I ate meat, every day for years, without any mishaps, and yet I couldn't handle two days of eating raw meat, I couldn't eat and have never in the last 10 years been able to eat more than 2 oz. of raw meat at a time, and I had such a very difficult time with even that much last night, even prior to the gelatin and cereal.

I don't know much about the physiology of digestion.  But it's simply a fact that raw meat takes much more sheer digestive power to process.  And why that is seems very obvious; after all, raw meat is harder to chew and harder to cut than cooked.  If it take more energy to break down with a knife and with teeth, it must take more energy for the stomach to break it down.  Why did Aajonus suggest I eat raw eggs instead of raw meat?  They're a semi-liquid, therefore easier to break down.  I'm talking strictly about that initial level of it.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Is Aajonus trustworthy?
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2010, 08:19:53 am »
I am afraid you are making some false assumptions. Here is an example of what I was talking about from the raw foodism wikipedia page:-

"Another study has shown that meat heated for 10 minutes at 130 °C (266 °F), showed a 1.5% decrease in protein digestibility.[99] Similar heating of hake meat in the presence of potato starch, soy oil, and salt caused a 6% decrease in amino acid content.[100][101]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_foodism#Potential_harmful_effects_of_cooked_foods
Various issues:-


1) enzymes in raw foods have c. 30 minutes in which to work on digesting raw foods in the mouth and upper stomach before they eventually get destroyed in the lower stomach. If one is eating mostly cooked foods, then that means the body has to make more enzymes from its own organs, which is why so many old-aged SAD-eaters are forced to take additional enzyme-supplements as their enzyme-producing organs wear out faster as a result, with age.

2) Almost all RVAFers report finding raw meats much, much easier to digest than cooked meats. The digestion is reported to take shorter periods than with cooked meats - in my own case, my stools were also smaller with raw meat-consumption than with cooked meats, and wouldn't be surprised if this holds true for most RVAFers too. The only times there were differences, other than 1 or 2 hypochondriacs re psychosomatic issues, were when people(such as yourself it seems) had very, very unusual, individual conditions(genetic etc. etc.), or were also eating unsuitable non-rawpalaeo foods, or were unknowingly allergic to some raw food such as raw dairy or raw eggs or some such. Oh, there is 1 other exception, of course:- it is common for people to expertience transitional detox effects when going from cooked to raw. For example, I had green diarrhea for the first 2 to 3 days,where I had to go to the bathroom every 30 minutes or less, during waking hours. Others get constipation, and no doubt a few get malabsorption/maldigestion, but , these detoxes are usually minor, and always temporary(I have yet to hear, though, of any such initial detox lasting more than 2 to 3 weeks, and usually it's only a few days). Raw foods seem to require less stomach-acid than with cooked foods, plus there are other changes, so the body has to adjust.



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" Ron Paul.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Is Aajonus trustworthy?
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2010, 08:20:58 am »
Quote
Iguana's previous post explains some of the reasons why raw food is easier to digest.
"Heating accelerates  the movement of molecules. The hotter an object is, the faster its molecules move and bang on each other. Proteins being extremely complex organic molecules composed of hundreds or thousands of atoms in extremely accurate, specific spatial location, they are likely to by damaged by those shocks if the temperature is too high (above 40 – 45°C).

Biochemical reactions are extremely complex, exact and precise. The proteins must be broken into amino acids, and that’s the duty of our enzymes. There’s a very distinct and defined adjustment between the enzymes and recognitions sites on the proteins: they adjust like a key into a lock. For each recognition site, there’s a specific enzyme type. If this site is damaged, the enzyme may be stuck on it, blocking the reaction and it won’t be available to split the following proteins.

The worst is that, if a protein is normal on its other recognition sites, it won’t be identified and eliminated immediately as an antigen. It might therefore be admitted into the body where it can cause all sorts of troubles such as perturb the immune system, for example.

It can be inferred that lightly damaged proteins may be more dangerous than completely destroyed ones, since the latter will immediately be recognized as such by the immune system, and won’t be admitted into the metabolism. So cooking at “low temperature” may not be a good idea. It’s better to completely carbonize the stuff!"
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline yon yonson

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Re: Is Aajonus trustworthy?
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2010, 08:42:26 am »
And why that is seems very obvious; after all, raw meat is harder to chew and harder to cut than cooked.  If it take more energy to break down with a knife and with teeth, it must take more energy for the stomach to break it down.

interesting, i find it the exact opposite. it is MUCH easier for me to chew raw meat than cooked. and cutting it is much easier too. almost no effort. raw digests much faster for me as a result. my stomach is empty after about an hour after eating raw meat. it takes nearly 3 or 4 hours for cooked. this is all my personal experience. it's almost as if you haven't really tried eating raw meat...

Offline laterade

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Re: Is Aajonus trustworthy?
« Reply #35 on: November 20, 2010, 08:55:57 am »
it's almost as if you haven't really tried eating raw meat...

I second that, two hours tops and my stomach empty.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Is Aajonus trustworthy?
« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2010, 08:56:40 am »
interesting, i find it the exact opposite. it is MUCH easier for me to chew raw meat than cooked. and cutting it is much easier too. almost no effort. raw digests much faster for me as a result. my stomach is empty after about an hour after eating raw meat. it takes nearly 3 or 4 hours for cooked. this is all my personal experience. it's almost as if you haven't really tried eating raw meat...

I have this very same experience.  1 hour to digest raw meat.  And 3 to 4 hours to digest cooked meat.

And raw meat is more filling than cooked so I eat less raw meat than cooked meat.

I noticed there is a gradual shift as I get used to raw meat, the more raw meat I can eat.

Has something to do with removing the icky factor in the subconscious.
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Offline MoonStalkeR

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Re: Is Aajonus trustworthy?
« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2010, 09:44:54 am »
risronen - eat ground meat, it makes a big difference. I can relate to some of the problems you describe, including poor digestion and gastroparesis (as well as the sensitivity to fat and fiber). Raw meat is certainly easier to digest than cooked, even whole unchewed, unground pieces. The problem you are experiencing is most likely not caused by the actual digestibility of the raw meat, but the raw meat being swallowed in large pieces. Large pieces of food such as unground muscle meats and connective tissue are problematic for me and I eat muscle meat that is ground.

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Re: Is Aajonus trustworthy?
« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2010, 10:45:54 am »
I used to have poor digestion when my liver was blocked with lots of liver stones.
When I did my liver flushes and rebuilt my liver, I could gradually eat more and more meat.
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Offline risrosen

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Re: Is Aajonus trustworthy?
« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2010, 11:04:30 am »
Okay, okay...first I want to say that out of sheer desperation and not-giving-a-f*ck anymore, seeing that the juice fast was going to do me no good, I ate a whole raw egg, as AV said to.  And you know what?  My stomach feels a lot better.

And okay, some raw meats are easy to chew, particularly ground meat.  Fish is definitely harder, at least the cod I yesterday and the day before (maybe others are easier--salmon, tuna).  Steak was fine.  Liver is definitely harder!!!  And beef liver has a totally gross taste.  Lamb liver is okay.  Anyway, I'll give in, I don't even want to think about it anymore tonight.  The raw egg seems to have worked, and I'm a lot happier.

Yes, I have tried to eat raw meat, as much as I was able.  It's just been hard, or I haven't been doing it right, or something.  The first prolonged round, a few years ago, I would eat it with coconut oil and raw butter, which might have complicated things.  I did a whole week of 3x/day meat eating then.  But the ick factor carries very little weight with me.  After 15+ years of suffering like this?  I don't find raw mammal muscle meat icky at all anyway.  Organ meat a lot more, but it still doesn't bother me.  If you asked me to eat a cockroach, yeah...EXTREME ick factor.  Or insect larva.  But raw meat?  No.

I would think enjoyment would be kind of important, though, to stimulate the production of stomach acid.  If the food you're eating is completely unstimulating, might it not be harder for you to digest because of that?  So maybe muscle meats are better for the newbie.  Maybe that's why last night's liver went down so bad, I didn't enjoy it at all.

Yeah, the meat being swallowed in large pieces...I'd just read on somebody's site that Aajonus says don't chew it much (though I see there's disagreement on that issue here)......so I was trying not to.  I wasn't swallowing it in large pieces, though.  But I was swallowing the liver without much chewing.  In small pieces, but maybe I do need to start off with ground meat.

But for the moment, eggs it is.

Offline miles

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Re: Is Aajonus trustworthy?
« Reply #40 on: November 20, 2010, 05:50:43 pm »
Raw meat is much closer to liquid than cooked meat, and it's much softer.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Is Aajonus trustworthy?
« Reply #41 on: November 20, 2010, 06:00:14 pm »
Raw meat is much closer to liquid than cooked meat, and it's much softer.
Yes, raw foods have a higher water-content, which leads to better digestibility, generally.


I am surprised re the comment about raw liver. When my own digestive system was nearly ruined by decades of SAD-eating, my switch to rawpalaeo was still a little difficult .My teeth were so loose from eating cooked, and my stomach so wrecked, that  I had to eat ground, raw meat and I found the softer raw organ-meats(raw liver and raw kidney) to digest quicker and better than the raw muscle-meats, ground or not.
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Offline risrosen

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Re: Is Aajonus trustworthy?
« Reply #42 on: November 20, 2010, 09:42:44 pm »
I guess raw liver could be not as soft but still easier to digest than cooked.  Perhaps as you said, I'm making some erroneous assumptions.  Yesterday I read an article by Mark Sisson citing a study that found that cooked egg protein is much more bioavailable than raw, and yet I'm certain that what happened to me last night with the raw egg would not have happened with a cooked one.  Not only did it clear my stomach and rejuvenate me, I actually slept last night after a day of maybe 700-800 calories, most of it raw honey.  No restless leg syndrome.  The one egg was my only fat and protein.  That's astonishing.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 10:43:17 pm by risrosen »

Offline miles

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Re: Is Aajonus trustworthy?
« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2010, 10:46:29 pm »
Raw liver seems softer to me than cooked as well.
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Offline laterade

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Re: Is Aajonus trustworthy?
« Reply #44 on: November 21, 2010, 12:28:52 am »
I hated cooked liver.. I find that raw liver tastes pretty good every once and a while.

Offline michaelwh

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Re: Is Aajonus trustworthy?
« Reply #45 on: November 21, 2010, 01:52:27 am »
I guess raw liver could be not as soft but still easier to digest than cooked.  Perhaps as you said, I'm making some erroneous assumptions.  Yesterday I read an article by Mark Sisson citing a study that found that cooked egg protein is much more bioavailable than raw, and yet I'm certain that what happened to me last night with the raw egg would not have happened with a cooked one.  Not only did it clear my stomach and rejuvenate me, I actually slept last night after a day of maybe 700-800 calories, most of it raw honey.  No restless leg syndrome.  The one egg was my only fat and protein.  That's astonishing.

Risrosen,

Good to hear that you're feeling better. I remember reading a study about cooked vs raw egg white, it's probably the same one that Mark Sisson cited. The study was done on people who had their colons removed. At the end of the small intestine, the remainder of the food was analyzed for protein content. Higher protein was found for raw egg white than cooked. The conclusion was, that the raw egg white protein is not digested well (since protein digestion does not take place in the large intestine). Two things to keep in mind:

1. This study was done on sick people, who had their colons removed. Its results do not necessarily generalize to healthy people.

2. This study was done on people who are used to a standard diet. Their gut flora, and their tastebuds, were probably not used to raw eggs. So the results do not necessarily generalize to people who enjoy raw eggs, and eat them on a regular basis.


For people who have serious digestive issues, Aajonus often prescribes lots of eggs, butter, and honey, and not much else (because those foods are easiest to digest). Maybe a small fish meal or a bit of milk when you have the appetite for it. And only start eating meat when your digestion gets better.

About Aajonus vs Matt Stone --
Keep in mind that most diet gurus' advice is largely based on their own experience. I used to read Matt Stone's blog. He's a young man who never had any serious health problems. He has experimented with zero-carb, vegan, all-milk, and several other diets, and did OK on all of them. He has never been in the shoes of someone with a serious illness.
On the other hand, Aajonus had many illnesses, and an operation which turned off HCl secretion in his stomach. Consequently, he practically can't digest cooked food, and finds honey to be a miracle digestive aid.

About Aajonus' theories and ideas --
I suspect that when Aajonus writes books/newsletters or presents workshops, he deliberately oversimplifies some of his theories, to present a simple philosophy to help people get well. Most of his audience is not interested in a scientific debate/discussion about viruses and germs and enzymes and cooking.
Here's an older thread about this:
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/omnivorous-raw-paleo/allergic-to-cooked-green-and-red-vegetables/


About the coyote story --
I have no way of judging whether it's true or not. It certainly is possible for animals to act in unusual ways, and help and feed others. Take a look at this video, where a crow feeds and takes care of a kitten. In light of this, the coyote story is not completely implausible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JiJzqXxgxo&feature=player_embedded

About cooked vs raw meat digestion --
Like many others, I also find that raw meat digests better than cooked. But it was not always like this. When I was starting out with raw meat, I went through periods where it did not digest so well. And I spent a few months on the "Wai diet" (fruit, eggs, and fish, and nuts, all raw) before eating raw meat. Although I see the Wai diet as being detrimental in the long-term, I think it can be a good "preparation" for raw paleo, to get your body used to raw animal foods in a gradual way.


GCB is much more logical:
A NEW THEORETICAL MODEL OF VIRAL PHENOMENA

Iguana,

That was interesting to read. Thanks for posting this. In a nutshell, it hypothesizes that viruses are tools for eliminating foreign molecules, rather than "inherently pathogenic". It's similar to AV's view, but is more conservative, and written in a more scientific way.

Offline risrosen

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Re: Is Aajonus trustworthy?
« Reply #46 on: November 21, 2010, 02:19:06 am »
About the coyote story --
I have no way of judging whether it's true or not. It certainly is possible for animals to act in unusual ways, and help and feed others. Take a look at this video, where a crow feeds and takes care of a kitten. In light of this, the coyote story is not completely implausible.

Yeah, I re-read it last night and it doesn't sound so far out to me now.  I mean, it's not like the coyotes talked to him.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2010, 02:33:16 am by risrosen »

Offline laterade

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Re: Is Aajonus trustworthy?
« Reply #47 on: November 21, 2010, 02:59:51 am »
Yeah, I re-read it last night and it doesn't sound so far out to me now.  I mean, it's not like the coyotes talked to him.

If it did happen it would be by far one of the most beautiful stories I have ever heard.
Coyotes are actually pretty cool animals, here in Az I have run into packs and had no worry.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Is Aajonus trustworthy?
« Reply #48 on: November 21, 2010, 03:19:30 am »
Someone once posted here a video of a sealion offering actually raw fish to an underwater photographer. I still doubt Aajonus's story, though, as it is painfully similiar to Jesus' 40 days/40 nights legend.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline risrosen

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Re: Is Aajonus trustworthy?
« Reply #49 on: November 21, 2010, 03:23:24 am »
If it did happen it would be by far one of the most beautiful stories I have ever heard.
Coyotes are actually pretty cool animals, here in Az I have run into packs and had no worry.

Well, I was joking.  Thinking of Carlos Castaneda and the talking deer.   ;)

 

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