Author Topic: Raw complex carb options  (Read 35701 times)

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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Raw complex carb options
« Reply #75 on: December 31, 2010, 12:49:03 am »
Inulin-rich roots can apparently be eaten raw:
Jicama: tuber of Central America
Yacon: tuber of the Andes of Perú; contains inulin and oligofructos
Artichokes such as Jerusalem artichoke
Chicory
Asparagus
Leeks
Onions

However, inulin is apparently composed of fructans, rather than ordinary starches, and some people can have difficulty digesting fructans (which is apparently one reason why inulin is used as a treatment for constipation).


Long yam (Dioscorea transversa), an Australian yam, can be eaten raw. Too bad it isn't available in the USA. It does suggest that raw tubers could have been an important food before cooking developed.

Women Hunters - Ray Mears Extreme Survival - BBC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwklPPEDbWM&feature=channel
2:14 the goodfellow (long yam, Garrbarda, Dioscorea transversa) "can be eaten raw"

http://bioacoustics.cse.unsw.edu.au/birding-aus/2003-04/msg00256.html
> 'long yam' (Dioscorea transversa) which grows in the white sandy
> banks of the creeks has a long white root that when cooked is better than
> the best mashed potato!  Indeed it was such a highly valued food item
> before the introduction of flour that all its various parts had their own
> names.   However procuring long yam is really hard work, for one must
> first find a decent root and then dig sometimes to a depth of nearly two
> metres.  And such strenuous work is not left to the young - my sister
> Esther was digging out such roots in her mid-seventies.

"The tubers are a staple food of Aborigines and are eaten after cooking, usually in ground ovens." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dioscorea_transversa
« Last Edit: December 31, 2010, 12:57:24 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Iguana

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Re: Raw complex carb options
« Reply #76 on: December 31, 2010, 01:20:49 am »
Jicama: tuber of Central America
I never saw any, I don't know what it is.

Yacon: tuber of the Andes of Perú; contains inulin and oligofructos
Delicious, I discovered it 3 years ago only.

Artichokes such as Jerusalem artichoke
Never liked it.

Chicory
Bitter to me.

Asparagus
Not great, generally bitter also for me

Leeks
I never liked it.

Onions
Always made me run away.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Raw complex carb options
« Reply #77 on: December 31, 2010, 03:12:23 am »
Yeah, I agree with your take on most of those, Iguana (though I find leeks to be OK, but I normally don't eat much at one sitting). I think this is one reason that cooked potatoes, sweet potatoes and yams are preferred to underground storage organs that are edible raw, as most of the ones edible raw aren't that tasty, unfortunately.

I haven't seen yacon yet. Thanks for the feedback on it.

So far the only starchy veg I've found that I like well enough and digest well enough raw to consider eating relatively regularly is parsnips, which surprised me because they taste too bitter to me when boiled. Some sites list them as low-starch, but this one claims they are as starchy as potatoes, interestingly: http://www.rawfoodexplained.com/application-of-food-combining-principles/food-classification-charts.html

Soaked sweet potatoes taste pretty good, like sweet carrots, and aren't too tough after they're soaked, but you're apparently supposed to dry them as well and I didn't care for them after drying, but I'll experiment some more.

I don't handle cooked winter squashes well and had gotten indigestion from undercooked winter squash in the past, so I wasn't optimistic about blenderized raw winter squash, but being a mad scientist :P I tried it anyway (using butternut squash) out of curiosity to see how it compares to parnsips and soaked sweet potatoes. Man was that a mistake! I ate 1 cup (140g) of blenderized raw butternut squash followed by just water (the squash left my mouth dry and I needed water after eating it and water has never noticeably interfered with my digestion) to avoid confounding variables. It tasted pretty poor to me and was still tough even after blenderizing, though less tough than a whole slice that I took a bite of before blenderizing. I could feel it heavy in my stomach and I gradually developed increasing indigestion after eating it. Like Sabertooth, the squash spiked my blood glucose--from 85 mg/dl before eating it to 140 mg/dl one hour afterwards, an increase of 55 mg/dl--a bigger increase than I expected from a raw veg. However, by 2 hours my blood glucose dropped to 106 mg/dl, which is pretty good. I intended to measure my blood glucose at 3 hours post-prandial too to see if it would return to 85 mg/dl, but had to abandon the experiment right after the 2nd hour, as the indigestion got too bad and I developed nausea and malaise. Eating raw meat with fat resolved the indigestion and nausea and greatly decreased the malaise. In retrospect I wish I had measured my BG after 3 hours anyway, as meat and fat don't tend to affect my BG much.

The next morning I woke with my mouth open and dry, as usually happens when I eat too much plant carbs, though I didn't notice that much increase in dry skin like I normally do after eating too much fruits and I didn't get any zits like I do from too much fruits. Overall the results of my experiment with raw butternut squash were quite negative.

I might still try soaking and drying squash, but if I do, I'll probably go with a smaller amount to reduce the chances of indigestion.

I've also been experimenting with cooked potatoes and sweet potatoes and overall those experiments haven't gone well either so far, though they at least taste good to me and seem to digest well, which I can't say for the raw butternut squash.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2010, 06:30:47 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Raw complex carb options
« Reply #78 on: December 31, 2010, 06:15:40 am »
PaleoPhil you are over-thinking or over-analyzing my comment I think, it was just a genuine opinion from I was in no way describing you of describing the people of the forum as a whole.
Call it what you wish, Yuli, I'd just like to understand what you and Stas86 are talking about, if that's OK. Please don't get me wrong--I'm not trying to be critical or to tell anyone what to do. Instead, I'm trying to follow a practice of seeking first to understand before seeking to be understood. If that's over-analyzing then so be it. It's a practice that has served me well in the past. In this vein it would help me understand what you wrote if I knew what it was in reference to. If you don't wish to discuss it, that's fine too. I'm very easy going.

Quote
I never thought about why you don't eat squashes, obviously though cause they don't work for you which is fine! I know your moto is you are not a paleo re-en-actor so obviously I don't think you have the hangup of squashes not being paleo.
Thanks for the reminder about the Paleo re-enactor term. I had forgotten about that one and it's probably more understandable than the "utopian emulator" phrase I had in my avatar caption. :)

Hey Phil could you expand please on how Squashes(or specific varieties?) aren't paleo? Cheers.
I didn't say they were not Paleo, Miles (I wrote that they "may not be truly "Paleo," mentioned that there is disagreement on what "Paleo" means and wrote that just because squashes contain antinutrients "doesn't necessarily mean that no one should ever eat them nowadays"), and I may explain more about that at some point, but first I'd like to seek to understand (as I mentioned above).

I would be happy to try to clarify any misconceptions that may have arisen as well as seek better understanding, but if any of this would be upsetting to anyone then I don't consider it worth getting into. Either way is fine by me.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2010, 06:39:08 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline miles

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Re: Raw complex carb options
« Reply #79 on: January 06, 2011, 12:00:35 am »
Couldn't the amylase in saliva be for glycogen in liver? And that's a complex carb.
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Re: Raw complex carb options
« Reply #80 on: January 06, 2011, 12:09:55 am »
In my opinion the best sources of complex carbs are squashes, particularly raw Butternut and Acorn. After being on a all meat and eggs diet for 6 months, I've had a tremendous decline in performance in the gym and have basically killed my adrenals. I've finally managed to overcome my carb phobia and about a three weeks ago I've started to add carbs back into my diet. I've tried plantains, bananas, and other fruits, carrots, parsnips as well as sweet potatoes. None of these suited me until I've finally found the super delicious squash. No anti-nutrients, easy to digest even with raw meat, and probably the most nutrient dense raw carb source that you will ever find. Ever since I have added these to my diet, I have seen tremendous improvements in my health. Better sleep, exercise performance etc.


Just tried the raw butternut squash for the first time this morning. Actually I liked the taste so happy to continue eating it...........although off for my raw fillet tails now  ;D

Offline turkish

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Re: Raw complex carb options
« Reply #81 on: January 06, 2011, 01:10:43 am »
this is interesting, will definately try butternut and acorn squash, there some good fresh squashes availables at the farms in NJ.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Raw complex carb options
« Reply #82 on: January 10, 2011, 01:49:30 am »
Raw butternut squash is definitely a no-go for me  -v (as always, YMMV). Even soaked and blenderized I found it tough, bad-tasting and it gave me indigestion and nausea and dried out my mouth.

A month or so ago I tried raw parsnips and found that I liked them and they've gone on my regular shopping list. The more I eat them it seems like the more I love them. It combines two of my favorite flavors--sweetness and the mustard/radish spiciness of the crucifers (though it's not a crucifer itself). Yuli put it well--"spicy sweetness". To me there's no comparison--raw parsnips beats raw butternut squash by a mile. I find soaked sweet potato to also be superior to raw butternut squash. Once again it's interesting the wide variation between different individual's responses to the same foods. What works for me is not necessarily going to work for others and vice-versa.

I was a little surprised that I liked the raw parsnips so much because I had always disliked my mother's parsnips. I realize now that the problem was she always boiled them to death to make a mashed-potato alternative, which made them rather bitter. I shouldn't have been surprised, really, because my mother also used to boil broccoli to death so that it had a gross texture and was bland and slightly bitter. One day I tried a raw broccoli flowerette before she could boil it and was surprised to find that it tasted sweet and good. I asked her if we could have it raw sometimes and she started putting broccoli flowerettes in the raw salads (the stalks were too tough and lacking in flavor for us, but I later learned an Asian trick of angled thin-slicing of the stalks and lightly steaming or stir-frying them to make them easier to chew and digest, though I know that's out here and when markets started selling broccoli heads without the stalks years ago I started buying those instead of dealing with the stalks).

That's one thing that causes me to question the pro-cooking dogma. If cooking veggies like parsnips and broccoli flowerettes is so natural and essential and we have adapted to it so well, why do they taste better to me raw?

I like the mustard/radish taste of daikon too, but found that I can't eat a whole small daikon without getting stomach upset, whereas I can eat multiple parsnips with no problems, so it's nice to find something that gives me a similar taste sensation without any unwanted side effects.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2011, 01:54:57 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline miles

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Re: Raw complex carb options
« Reply #83 on: January 10, 2011, 03:28:41 am »
That's one thing that causes me to question the pro-cooking dogma. If cooking veggies like parsnips and broccoli flowerettes is so natural and essential and we have adapted to it so well, why do they taste better to me raw?

But how many could you eat raw? And how many could you eat cooked?

Couldn't the amylase in saliva be for glycogen in liver? And that's a complex carb.

And what do you think about this?


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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Raw complex carb options
« Reply #84 on: January 10, 2011, 07:21:02 am »
But how many could you eat raw? And how many could you eat cooked?
I can eat at least three raw and probably more. My guess would be that I could eat more cooked than raw, but I don't know and I haven't liked the taste of any cooked ones I've tried, so I wouldn't care to unless someone cooked them in a way I found tasty and I probably couldn't be bothered to cook them myself. Why do you ask?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline miles

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Re: Raw complex carb options
« Reply #85 on: January 10, 2011, 08:51:27 am »
I can eat at least three raw and probably more. My guess would be that I could eat more cooked than raw, but I don't know and I haven't liked the taste of any cooked ones I've tried, so I wouldn't care to unless someone cooked them in a way I found tasty and I probably couldn't be bothered to cook them myself. Why do you ask?

Well I tried eating some raw a while ago, didn't like the taste and couldn't eat much of even one. I then cooked them and ate the whole bag full, they were really tasty. I put them full on full power in the oven, for just long enough to soften them up only a bit, did it by feel and it only took 10 mins or something I think. I peeled off the skin which was dry and crispy. The inside was only slightly soft, and still had the good strong parsnip taste, not like when people cook things to death, all I had done was soften it up no more.

Do you think your parsnips could be a different type that are more edible raw?
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Raw complex carb options
« Reply #86 on: January 10, 2011, 09:12:55 am »
Do you think your parsnips could be a different type that are more edible raw?
No. So do you continue to cook your parsnips or was that just an experiment? What temp was it? Did you add anything to them before or after cooking?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline miles

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Re: Raw complex carb options
« Reply #87 on: January 10, 2011, 12:11:47 pm »
No. So do you continue to cook your parsnips or was that just an experiment? What temp was it? Did you add anything to them before or after cooking?

It was an experiment, I did it a few more times though. At the moment I've just been eating animals, since a few weeks ago. If I were to get parsnips again I'd always try them raw first but I expect I'd always go for heat-altering them after a bite. It was in a multi-unit 250C Fan assisted turn-table convection oven + Grill in roof. I didn't add anything before or after.

Ox liver is like 10g Glycogen/100gs if you want carbs. I got a really nice fresh one and it was delicious, I could eat loads of it
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Offline Hannibal

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Re: Raw complex carb options
« Reply #88 on: January 10, 2011, 02:57:45 pm »
Ox liver is like 10g Glycogen/100gs 
How do you know that?
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Offline deletemyaccount

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Re: Raw complex carb options
« Reply #89 on: January 20, 2011, 10:01:18 pm »
Raw butternut squash is definitely a no-go for me  -v (as always, YMMV). Even soaked and blenderized I found it tough, bad-tasting and it gave me indigestion and nausea and dried out my mouth.

A month or so ago I tried raw parsnips and found that I liked them and they've gone on my regular shopping list. The more I eat them it seems like the more I love them. It combines two of my favorite flavors--sweetness and the mustard/radish spiciness of the crucifers (though it's not a crucifer itself). Yuli put it well--"spicy sweetness". To me there's no comparison--raw parsnips beats raw butternut squash by a mile. I find soaked sweet potato to also be superior to raw butternut squash. Once again it's interesting the wide variation between different individual's responses to the same foods. What works for me is not necessarily going to work for others and vice-versa.

Raw parsnips taste awesome... I've been eating a lot of them lately as they go along very well with all kinds of meats and seafood.

I was a little surprised that I liked the raw parsnips so much because I had always disliked my mother's parsnips. I realize now that the problem was she always boiled them to death to make a mashed-potato alternative, which made them rather bitter. I shouldn't have been surprised, really, because my mother also used to boil broccoli to death so that it had a gross texture and was bland and slightly bitter. One day I tried a raw broccoli flowerette before she could boil it and was surprised to find that it tasted sweet and good. I asked her if we could have it raw sometimes and she started putting broccoli flowerettes in the raw salads (the stalks were too tough and lacking in flavor for us, but I later learned an Asian trick of angled thin-slicing of the stalks and lightly steaming or stir-frying them to make them easier to chew and digest, though I know that's out here and when markets started selling broccoli heads without the stalks years ago I started buying those instead of dealing with the stalks).

That's one thing that causes me to question the pro-cooking dogma. If cooking veggies like parsnips and broccoli flowerettes is so natural and essential and we have adapted to it so well, why do they taste better to me raw?

I like the mustard/radish taste of daikon too, but found that I can't eat a whole small daikon without getting stomach upset, whereas I can eat multiple parsnips with no problems, so it's nice to find something that gives me a similar taste sensation without any unwanted side effects.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Raw complex carb options
« Reply #90 on: January 21, 2011, 07:02:32 am »
Yes, I've found that raw parsnips taste a bit like mild wasabi and go well with sashimi.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Raw complex carb options
« Reply #91 on: February 03, 2011, 12:42:34 pm »
Well I tried eating some raw a while ago, didn't like the taste and couldn't eat much of even one. I then cooked them and ate the whole bag full, they were really tasty. I put them full on full power in the oven, for just long enough to soften them up only a bit, did it by feel and it only took 10 mins or something I think. I peeled off the skin which was dry and crispy. The inside was only slightly soft, and still had the good strong parsnip taste, not like when people cook things to death, all I had done was soften it up no more.

Do you think your parsnips could be a different type that are more edible raw?
On second thought, possibly. I was thinking you meant were my parsnips a different variety, but now I wonder--were the parsnips you bought supermarket parsnips? I bought some supermarket parsnips for the first time and find that they are not as sweet and more fibrous than the organic parsnips I usually buy. I can only eat about 1/2 of one raw before I get an unpleasant full feeling in my stomach.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

 

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