Author Topic: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables  (Read 41120 times)

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Offline KD

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #50 on: January 21, 2011, 08:09:25 am »
Isn't it interesting that the Hadza who live near the alleged original habitat of H. sapiens sapiens reportedly prefer berries above all fruits and that fruits are apparently not available year round even in that tropical zone?
Its not just the Hadza, its basically all traditional peoples that live in tropical zones - or otherwise where the most abundance of fruiting plants is available (but as you point out not always year round...at least for most species). Fruitarian travelers are always shocked to find residents of various locales letting durians or other falling fruits rot and eating all kinds of other sugars and starches from all degrees of raw->cooked. Their confused brains can only cite addictions or influence of new habits, however often there is not only the dearth you speak of but a greater intelligence (and experience) driving people to choose those types of foods over even the wild fresh and raw..nevermind the distorted modern varieties.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #51 on: January 21, 2011, 10:01:34 am »

no. unfortunately that is not the case. Even if we eat 100% the cleanest healthiest foods with the right balance of nutrtients (if anyone even does such) this isn't the case, and other tools are often necessarily.

I can think of 1000s of examples of where similarly 'processed' foods as part of an overall DIET would be superior to other diets without such things and have listed some. Thats exactly what I am saying is false. Why would I have to compare one thing to another, when methodologies will exude all kinds of such processes and believe what they are doing is therefore AUTOMATICALLY correct...no matter how equally artificial. You always want some 1:1 comparison, but you won't have it when you can't even see past such narrow perception towards such things. All the matters is how a person can get healthy or become unhealthy on certain whole APPROACHES. So discussing individual foods or processes and weighing how bad one thing is over another and all the detriments is a waste of time and will in fact leave one is the raw>anything non raw camp every time to their own loss. The only real issue here (for this thread) is whether someone can have better results emphasizing wild/indigenous foods and processes over arbitrarily eating any foods that appear to be raw fruit, animal or vegetable as I have said a few times now. If you have anything to say about that, then maybe do so, instead of your typical dissections of exercise or medicine and photoshop or other things that you can use to 'rationalize' why people do well...while neglecting the obvious holes in logic that creating health is not so simple.
  Hmm, you do have a talent for writing rather  huge amounts of text without really saying much re either bolstering your past arguments or effectively debunking my own ones. But here are some counter-points of my own:-

Anyway:- re your point of "emphasising wild/indigenous foods and processes" over eating anything that is raw animal, fruit, or vegetable":-

First of all, as pointed out previously, cooking is anything but "wild" since wild animals do not go in for cooking their foods.  The process of fermentation, which you mentioned, is also part of Nature as wild animals also take advantage of fermentation of foods for their own purposes.

More to the point, despite your assertions,none of us have suggested that we should only eat anything that is raw animal, fruit, or vegetable. On the contrary, we have also stated that grassfed meat is important and  that raw wild game/raw wildcaught seafood is superior to other kinds of raw animal foods  and so on.

Plus, it is obviously important to compare the raw equivalent to its cooked equivalent when one is trying to suggest that cooked diets are superior - otherwise, one could falsely suggest that one particular cooked food had advantages over only one lesser, raw food, even though it had severe disadvantages to health of its own, and was far inferior to other types of raw foods. Besides, you are playing a hypocritical double-standard in that you are specifically comparing a widely-varied cooked-palaeodiet/cooked-meats to a mono-diet of eating primarily raw oranges, yet still blather on about how one should not compare single foods, and judge the diets as a whole - and the latter is precisely what I did!

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I'm not talking about the processes of cooking, i'm taking about physical bodies capable of taking on extremes in temperature/situation and have strength and skill. Believe it or not, some of these people will eat raw meat too, maybe even know what kind of bitter (yuck) plants to eat and even eat bugs and other dreadful things.

The above is absurd. I mean, the vast majority of cooked-palaeodieters haven't the faintest clue about what their palaeo ancestors really ate, let alone even what more modern hunter-gatherers ate. I somehow doubt that Art DeVany would be eating raw witchetty grub like the Aborigines - and if he ever did, it would just be in order to pose for photographs rather than any genuine attempt to survive in the wilderness.
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who cares, you still can't say with certainty someone eating cooked healthy food will be less healthy than someone eating raw hybridized food depending on what kind of diet that person eats. So if the diet is high in modern fruits and low in other foods, it can create just as many or more problems as cooked foods even if it is not deficient in nutrients, happens all the time and doesn't matter if they are vegan or omnivorous raw, just a fundamental issue for modern humans. Even when you look at traditional peoples in the tropics, they often exclude the local fruits in favor of other foods and starches. What people like DV point out is there is a REASON for this other than the typical nonsense spewed by raw food people about pure addictions or degeneration in behavior. It has to do with HEALTH.

An absurd comment on your part:-  First of all, a diet high in raw plant foods and low in raw animal foods can provide all the nutrients that a human being needs.  Secondly, there is no real evidence to suggest that raw, hybridised fruit is harmful when it is a part of a varied raw diet, whereas there is plentiful evidence that even a so-cqlled "healthy" cooked-palaeodiet can be shown to be harmful, given the plentiful scientific evidence showing the harm caused by heat-created toxins in cooked foods.
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all greens other than bitter herbs will taste sweet unless there is some underlying issue. I could care less what PD people have written, may of which after all are not in good health or necessarily have been on the diet very long and have all kinds of artificial desire or habits.
Yet you foolishly cite veggies like egg-plants as an example of poor veggies that have a bitter taste...ah well!
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What you are essentially saying is the same stuff people say about grains having no flavor or coffee or tea because SOME people use flavor enhancers. The very criticism of even plant juices is too much sugar, and sugar...tastes sweet.
  No, the criticism of veggie-juices is that juicing makes the antinutrients in raw veg more bioavailable as a result of the shredding of the cell-walls. As for taste/instinct, people would far rather eat a raw solid orange than drink freshly-squeezed wheatgrass or broccoli juice or whatever nonsense. And it's truly bizarre to single out PDers as adopting an artificial diet when most cooked-palaeodieters adopt artificial methods too, some even worse(many, many cooked-palaeodieters only adopt semi-palaeo practices such as eating grainfed meats(the zero-carbers), while others eat some dairy and/or grains as well.
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of course you focused on how paleo or not the practices of certain raw vegans were that exclude fruit, instead of acknowledging that the reason they do in fact process sprouts and other fermented foods is to heal the body by avoiding all kinds of naturally fermenting fruit sugars. Many believing fundamentally that modern unripe fruits are not food at all, and having the documents proving' such at least to them and shared as an idea and expeirence by many others include raw meat eaters.
  What a few fringe raw vegans may(or may not) believe in as regards raw fruit is irrelevant. Besides, the whole purpose of sprouting is to increase the amounts of enzymes in the foods and to decrease the levels of antinutrients in them.
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Offline KD

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #52 on: January 21, 2011, 10:47:46 am »
Tyler you didn't address what I said at all. All one needs is to find one success of someone doing something 'unnatural' to their benefit when they couldn't otherwise following such dogmatic viewpoints to suggest that those viewpoints are totally invalid. My track record is listing these endlessly from raw paleo practices to 'neolithic' or supplementation or otherwise. Often people get boxed in believing they were correct ONLY because they were natural and raw and end up being incredibly unhealthy in comparison to others. Lex and others point out this often other than myself. Why do I have to respond individually to your claims that people emphasize grass-fed or wild? The point is they ain't thinking critically about how food functions in the body, and as per discussion, modern fruits turn to shit internally, and this is widely believed by most (not fringe) health savy people on the planet from vegans to carnivores. The literature and research is endless. and people on any approach whether it is vegan or raw meat can see success limiting sugars from modern fruits compared to when they PERSONALLY ate modern fruits indiscriminately. How this is off topic is besides me.

The point is people can not unilaterally pan lifestyles which have the ability to create more health then their own by refrenacing theories that arn't rooted in reality. The reality is fruit does not carry an automatic role of healthfulness jsut because it is raw, nor is it necessarily more avlaible or preferable to other plant sources nevermind animal food sources. In simple speak, you can construct a diet that is raw and paleo that is not healthy, and whatever criticisms you can lobby at individal products of cooking or other evil things, they can stil create greater health.

When you can find plenty of examples of people increasing health doing traditional processes and expanding on their diet choices to include wild foods by any means while emphasising things like low sugar over 'eat whats raw' then any comparison of a single food to another food becomes pointless. That there is enough information to suggest one CANNOT discriminate against processes unilaterally as being bad withotu resorting to diagrams or comparisons of individual foods

like with juicing or any other things, you project assumptions about things which are essentially fabrications of your own which you then use to prove things. I've read countless articles on juicing from extreme pro and con and none mention anti-nutrients and almost all the cons (Bee Wilder, Sisson etc..) mention sugar. This is an invention of the raw paleo board as far as I am concerned. One can only possibly take ion more 'antinutriton' by increasing the ammount of vegetables by jucing more than one might eat, the proces itself is incapable of such.

As for the overwhelming evidence against modernt fruits:
You can assess and address this information individually, but at the end of the day you have to respect that people have success doing what they do, and not place superficial caveats like they were damaged by modern foods or something, this is something that effects every human and that is what the data shows.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #53 on: January 21, 2011, 03:46:50 pm »
[after relizing posts were deleted/moved to some lame thread]
Where is my post of DV and wild foods? (…) Although I guess that got lost in the 'move'.

Nothing got lost, your most relevant and informative posts are here: http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/hot-topics/clash/
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Iguana

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #54 on: January 21, 2011, 05:36:02 pm »
Tyler and Francois, I don't want to get into a debate on it, so I'll just report that while some elements of Instincto make sense to me, my experience doesn't exactly match yours when it comes to Instincto, so from my perspective you speak for yourselves on the topic. I think some of the more cantankerous debate could be mellowed out into more reasonable and fruitful (pardon the pun ;) ) discussion if folks frequently made it clear that they speak only for themselves.

Phil, to avoid further derailing of this thread, I answer here: http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/instinctoanopsology/personal-experience/msg60889/#msg60889
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #55 on: January 21, 2011, 07:05:19 pm »
Tyler you didn't address what I said at all. All one needs is to find one success of someone doing something 'unnatural' to their benefit when they couldn't otherwise following such dogmatic viewpoints to suggest that those viewpoints are totally invalid. My track record is listing these endlessly from raw paleo practices to 'neolithic' or supplementation or otherwise. Often people get boxed in believing they were correct ONLY because they were natural and raw and end up being incredibly unhealthy in comparison to others. Lex and others point out this often other than myself. Why do I have to respond individually to your claims that people emphasize grass-fed or wild? The point is they ain't thinking critically about how food functions in the body, and as per discussion, modern fruits turn to shit internally, and this is widely believed by most (not fringe) health savy people on the planet from vegans to carnivores. The literature and research is endless. and people on any approach whether it is vegan or raw meat can see success limiting sugars from modern fruits compared to when they PERSONALLY ate modern fruits indiscriminately. How this is off topic is besides me.
  The claims re modern fruit are usually based on absurdities, such as referring to extreme 100 percent raw fruitarian diets, which are irrelevant to rawpalaeos who eat a wide variety of raw foods. More to the point, in virtually all cases, the studies concerned tend to be completely bogus as they focus on things like highly-refined fructose, such as found in corn-syrup, and then disgracefully try to pretend that fructose in raw fruits is exactly the same as that(Taubes is a classic conman in this regard). The very few studies which are not so dishonest are, unfortunately for you, countered by vast numbers of studies showing health-benefits if one increases one's intake of raw fruit and veg.

Plus, plentiful anecdotal evidence exists among RVAFers to show that the raw aspect is just as important as the palaeo aspect. Some RVAFers have even found the raw aspect to be MORE important than the palaeo aspect for their own health, and happily consume plenty of raw fruits or raw dairy. The experience of Lex and yours, re the palaeo aspect being more important than the raw aspect, so that your lot view the cooked aspect as being largely irrelevant, does not invalidate the experience of the former type. Plus, more and more cooked-palaeos are finding that they need to go raw in order to regain better health than they did on cooked-palaeodiets. Not to mention the fact that many omnivorous rawpalaeos don't like or thrive on raw veg, but do fine on raw fruits, and indeed suffer, health-wise, if they cut out all raw fruits and go raw, zero-carb.

As for "finding one success", like I said before, cooking is by itself a harmful process; the only benefit it gives is that it makes some foods(mostly non-palaeo foods) more bioavailable, thus increasing the nutrients the human body can take in from eating them. So, there will always be a raw equivalent diet which will work better than the cooked equivalent thereof, as long as one listens to ones's body re instincts/sensations ; or at the very least the same,  if the cooking-process is only very, very minor etc.etc.You can, of course claim that someone might be irresponsible and only ever eat a raw, 100 percent raw olive-diet, say, but that is very unlikely indeed, and there are so many additional pitfalls associated with non-rawpalaeodiets such as the degree of cooking involved, the extra processing other than cooking that may also be involved etc., that the chances of failure via experimentation on such non-RPD diets are heavily increased by comparison to rawpalaeodiets.
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The point is people can not unilaterally pan lifestyles which have the ability to create more health then their own by refrenacing theories that arn't rooted in reality. The reality is fruit does not carry an automatic role of healthfulness just because it is raw, nor is it necessarily more available or preferable to other plant sources nevermind animal food sources.
  Well, rawpalaeos, like I said, do not view individual raw foods as being the only essential healthy food. We also focus on a variety of raw organ-meats, on "high-meats" and so on and on. Plus, other raw plant sources can be more problematic than raw fruits. For example, some raw vegetables have too high levels of antinutrients in them for warding off insects, thus causing digestive upset to humans  etc.. Raw fruits do not have this problem as they are meant to be eaten.
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When you can find plenty of examples of people increasing health doing traditional processes and expanding on their diet choices to include wild foods by any means while emphasising things like low sugar over 'eat whats raw' then any comparison of a single food to another food becomes pointless. That there is enough information to suggest one CANNOT discriminate against processes unilaterally as being bad without resorting to diagrams or comparisons of individual foods.
  Ah, I see, you're a believer in  Weston-Price's notions, to some extent.That's why all the kerfuffle. The trouble is that Weston-Price made the exact same mistake you are criticising rawpalaeos for, namely suggesting that diet alone would solve all health-problems, that all one had to do was eat foods cooked or processed in  certain ways to be  healthy. He tried to claim that all these hunter-gatherer tribes were in the peak of health, yet scientists like Mann have since then pointed out that this was a wholly  inaccurate claim.He also cited endless different types of diet as all being supposedly super-healthy, yet these diets were often so radically different from each other, that such sweeping claims could not possibly have been true. Plus, he failed completely to realise that there were various non-dietary reasons as to why hunter-gatherers did not have the kind of diseases that modern Westerners had:- for example, heavy amounts of exercise reduces the amounts of AGEs/heat-created toxins in the human body, and so does caloric restriction/Intermittent Fasting, and both exercise and feast/famine/fasting were routinely practised by such hunter-gatherers throughout their lives.Also, those hunter-gatherers did not cook their foods as harshly as modern settled peoples do. So, while some have used Weston-Price to suggest that cooking is OK or can be better than some raw diets, they are mostly wrong, except in the case of really extreme raw diets like raw veganism/fruitarianism.
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like with juicing or any other things, you project assumptions about things which are essentially fabrications of your own which you then use to prove things. I've read countless articles on juicing from extreme pro and con and none mention anti-nutrients and almost all the cons (Bee Wilder, Sisson etc..) mention sugar. This is an invention of the raw paleo board as far as I am concerned. One can only possibly take ion more 'antinutriton' by increasing the ammount of vegetables by jucing more than one might eat, the proces itself is incapable of such.
On the contrary, it was mentioned on numerous occasions on quite different RVAF diet forums. We only repeat it, as so many RVAFers have found that they did OK on some forms of raw solid veg, but got nutritional deficiencies from consuming too much raw veggie-juice, in the long-term.
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As for the overwhelming evidence against modernt fruits:
You can assess and address this information individually, but at the end of the day you have to respect that people have success doing what they do, and not place superficial caveats like they were damaged by modern foods or something, this is something that effects every human and that is what the data shows.
The point I made was perfectly valid, that some rawpalaeos are very badly affected by any fruits, however raw, while others thrive on them, so that people should choose what works for them within a raw diet, rather than choosing a less effective cooked diet. And the data against fruits is way overshadowed by the much larger number of studies showing that raw fruit is healthy, anyway, like I said before.
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Offline KD

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #56 on: January 21, 2011, 11:01:02 pm »
 The claims re modern fruit are usually based on absurdities, such as referring to extreme 100 percent raw fruitarian diets, which are irrelevant to rawpalaeos who eat a wide variety of raw foods. More to the point, in virtually all cases, the studies concerned tend to be completely bogus as they focus on things like highly-refined fructose, such as found in corn-syrup, and then disgracefully try to pretend that fructose in raw fruits is exactly the same as that(Taubes is a classic conman in this regard). The very few studies which are not so dishonest are, unfortunately for you, countered by vast numbers of studies showing health-benefits if one increases one's intake of raw fruit and veg.



no, tyler, that is the thing, these are not limited to a few studies and plenty people here share these experiences. As I said, you are ther one putting into extremes of fruitarian or zero carb and dismissing the reality to focus on such extremes. I am saying that vegans who limit their fruit sugar intake improve their health and the same with cooked fooders and the same with raw omnivores or raw zero-carbers. only you assume if one moderates or eliminates sweet fruits that they all of a sudden are zero carb which is ridiculous. Plenty of people eat low sugar and have improved their health over diets high in modern fruits, this is a FACT. THis alone does not decimate fruit being possibly harmless, but other information done over decades by specialists in raw nutrtion does magnify it. There are people that emphasize foods that actually exists in nature as healthful food, that do not have these repercussions. Maybe THEY don't give a dam about processing, but the point is they get better results doing what you or I define as crappy things . Ive never advocated any cooking or WAP style eating and the philosophy you mention is just as/or more naive than believing modern fruit is by default ok. there is no one way of eating that will guarantee one remain free of disease and people need to include whatever tools they need whether it is 'zero-carb' or supplements or whatever for health without being cornerered into some decimating mindset that equallly has none to do with how people eat in nature.

You pick and choose between the studies, as the claims of fruit being arbitrarily healthy come mostly from conventional systems and not people with long term experience on fruit diets. As I've said numerous times before, people on these diets only suffer to some degree from deficiencies, with most of the serious issues dealing with over-sufficiency, which can be corrected even WITHIN veganism! with some success (sprouting or cooking), so obviously they are not just issues of lack of animal foods. all you need is single examples to prove that fruit can cause damage that cooked foods might not..nevermind that properlly excuted and tailored raw diets would not.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #57 on: January 22, 2011, 02:54:44 am »
First of all, we do offer perfectly good alternatives to those who cannot handle raw carbs, namely a raw, zero-carb diet. But there are also plenty of people, myself included, who do very well even on high-sugar raw fruits in large amounts. It seems you are making a dubious sweeping statement in suggesting that raw fruits are harmful for all.

As for the comment on veg/fruit I made, that is self-evident. For example, I find raw solid veg tasteless and not terribly nutritious, raw veggie-juice just goes through my body completely unabsorbed, giving me liquid diarrhea, whereas raw fruits work wonders for me. Exception is tropical fruit, but that has nothing to do with the sugar-content as I do fine on non-tropical fruits which are high in sugar.
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Offline Hanna

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #58 on: January 22, 2011, 02:59:39 am »
It is indeed interesting that even though the Hadza prefer berries to USOs, they eat more of the latter, because it is more plentiful and available year round. This is something that some Instinctos don't appear to take fully into account, because it seems that some don't restrict themselves to seasonal foods (please correct me if I err).

Instinctos usually do not restrict themselves to seasonal foods at all since they typically believe that humans are adapted to a supposed tropical fruit paradise.

My current view is that instincto and similar diets (such as mine which is very similar to instincto) replace the carbs that our human ancestors got from (cooked) tubers and later from grains with carbs from fruit. This may not be paleo and has certain disadvantages (much fructose, fruit acid, low availability of local fruit and wild fruit in many areas etc.), but is possibly healthier than a partly cooked diet or a very low carb diet in the long run.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 03:04:50 am by Hanna »

Offline Iguana

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #59 on: January 22, 2011, 03:28:51 am »
Instinctos usually do not restrict themselves to seasonal foods at all since they typically believe that humans are adapted to a supposed tropical fruit paradise.

I don't believe anything of that sort (and I avoid all beliefs in general), I just don't know.

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My current view is that instincto and similar diets (such as mine which is very similar to instincto) replace the carbs that our human ancestors got from (cooked) tubers and later from grains with carbs from fruit. This may not be paleo and has certain disadvantages (much fructose, fruit acid, low availability of local fruit and wild fruit in many areas etc.), but is possibly healthier than a partly cooked diet or a very low carb diet in the long run.

Are there some significant differences between your current views / diet and the instincto ones? Or were you just saying that you don't consider yourself as instincto anymore because GCB didn't answer to one of your posts?

Do you believe our hominids (and apes) ancestors ate cooked tubers even before mastering the fire?  ;)  ???

Just curious
François
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline KD

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #60 on: January 22, 2011, 03:48:15 am »
First of all, we do offer perfectly good alternatives to those who cannot handle raw carbs, namely a raw, zero-carb diet. But there are also plenty of people, myself included, who do very well even on high-sugar raw fruits in large amounts. It seems you are making a dubious sweeping statement in suggesting that raw fruits are harmful for all.


I suggested that assuming fruits by default are healthy is wrong, and that as a fact people will get better results limiting sugar then they did when they did not limit sugar. This doesn't say that all fruit in all amounts is bad - not at all -only that eating raw fruit is not in itself a healthy practice devoid of other variables. Accepting that zero-carb is a strategy pretty much defies the idea that just because something is a raw fruit over any other non-grain food that it is acceptable to eat, or that restrictions can't have benefits. So obviously you already agree in part that one can't just eat foods within the umbrella of raw paleo, particularly to correct modern problems. I don't see why you can't accept my example within veganism to apply to other situations. Obviously if people can correct various issues by just limiting fruits while not increasing anything else that we might define healthful in the raw or paleo sense, then there is something wrong with the assumption that fruits will always be healthier the tubers,USOs or even grains (sprouted or even cooked), or that they are even a necessary part of a healthy diet when gauging actual peoples in nature.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #61 on: January 22, 2011, 04:00:53 am »
Arguing that raw fruits are not suitable in a few cases means nothing when, quite clearly, cooked foods like grains or tubers causefar more problems for people. And, judging from the data, those who do get issues with raw fruits only did so after decades of consumption of highly refined carbs swamping their bodies. In other words, if they had been raw from the very beginning of their lives, they would have had no issues with raw fruits.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline KD

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #62 on: January 22, 2011, 04:12:04 am »
Arguing that raw fruits are not suitable in a few cases means nothing when, quite clearly, cooked foods like grains or tubers causefar more problems for people. And, judging from the data, those who do get issues with raw fruits only did so after decades of consumption of highly refined carbs swamping their bodies. In other words, if they had been raw from the very beginning of their lives, they would have had no issues with raw fruits.
ok lets take a survey on who that applies to here and who might qualify for thinking about their sources of nutrition a bit more carefully. Then we can survey the data of the number of people who have attempted a high fruit diet throughout history and which ones returned to a grain based diet with less problems and which turned to a raw meat diet. Once again all you can do is cite the harmful products of grains without really getting that high fruit diets CAN causes more problems and crisis even tho (and basically because) they are raw. Returning to some crappy diet (by your definition) is enough to fix this problem for many folks. This is the whole point in me bringing up proponents of high sprout diets and so forth, as for them there is the advantage of such foods over the problems associated with modern fruits which THEY certainly see as worse than SWD.

Also this does not take into account indigenous peoples who neglect fruits for other foods, even tho they never ate modern foods.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #63 on: January 22, 2011, 04:28:05 am »
The trouble is that indigenous peoples eat highly toxic things like  cassava(a type of tuber), which are unquestionably worse than raw fruits. Check out online details on cassava re its cyanaide content etc.

And grains cause far more problems than modern fruits, in terms of things like coeliac disease/IBS etc. etc. Plus, like I said, while a minority get issues from raw fruits, that is solely due to past decades on cooked diets which included highly refined carbs. Plus, the difference between wild fruits and cultivated fruits is very minor compared to the far bigger difference between grains and raw fruits, since grains have extra heat-created toxins of various kinds, plus humans are far less adapted to grains than to raw fruits.


Sprouts can , to some extent, counter nutritional deficiencies gained after being many years on raw vegan/fruitarian diets, but they are unnecessary when one is rawpalaeo, as we already get plenty of the nutrients we need without need of sporuts as well.
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Offline KD

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #64 on: January 22, 2011, 04:41:13 am »
yeah, but people here don't have to choose between a serving of casava or a serving of fruit or sprouts or whatever, they just have to understand that in cases, its going to be less appropriate to eat modern fruit as a large part of a diet, and not rationalize it just because it is raw or then criticize other things entirely as being inferior because they are not raw or even paleo. On a 1:1 level this is true, but you can't deny current peoples that have suffered issues unique to fruits and not other seemingly more detrimental carbs OR say definitively that traditional people's health might improve eating more of the wild fruits around them and less starchy foods.

no matter how much cyanide is out there or visible detrimental problems of the WAPF or whatever, most people will agree that this issue is an important factor to health, and certainly not marginal or not shared by a wide spectrum of people. Even the sprout advocates would claim the removal of fruit sugars to be the healing part over anything intrinsic in sprouts, thats why that logic can easily be transferred to RAF or RVAF diets that emphasize low sugar fruit and veg, or even high sugar but light starch/low-digestive-fermentation fruit/veg..and can neglect the sprouts if they choose.


Offline Nation

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #65 on: January 22, 2011, 04:43:41 am »
Arguing that raw fruits are not suitable in a few cases means nothing when, quite clearly, cooked foods like grains or tubers causefar more problems for people.

few cases? Go to the candida forums on Curezone and Healthboards which are probably the health-related forums that get the most traffic. Ask them what happens to their candida symptoms and health in general when they raw eat fruit, even in small amount. Then ask them how do they on cooked grains/tubers, the answers you'll get will contradict your statement. Maybe I'll do the exercise later.

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #66 on: January 22, 2011, 05:50:11 am »

yeah, but people here don't have to choose between a serving of casava or a serving of fruit or sprouts or whatever, they just have to understand that in cases, its going to be less appropriate to eat modern fruit as a large part of a diet, and not rationalize it just because it is raw or then criticize other things entirely as being inferior because they are not raw or even paleo. On a 1:1 level this is true, but you can't deny current peoples that have suffered issues unique to fruits and not other seemingly more detrimental carbs OR say definitively that traditional people's health might improve eating more of the wild fruits around them and less starchy foods.
  The big trouble with your above claim is that people only eventually develop issues with raw, modern fruits once they've been decades on a diet of highly refined carbs. Yet, people quickly deteriorate on veggies like cassava which is one of the least nutritious foods out there, given the cyanide content.

.
[/quote]  On a 1:1 level this is true,.[/quote]  Well, at least we agree on that.

Quote
no matter how much cyanide is out there or visible detrimental problems of the WAPF or whatever, most people will agree that this issue is an important factor to health, and certainly not marginal or not shared by a wide spectrum of people. Even the sprout advocates would claim the removal of fruit sugars to be the healing part over anything intrinsic in sprouts, thats why that logic can easily be transferred to RAF or RVAF diets that emphasize low sugar fruit and veg, or even high sugar but light starch/low-digestive-fermentation fruit/veg..and can neglect the sprouts if they choose.
  Invalid, as the whole point  of eating sprouts has little to do with fruit-sugars but far more to do with sprouting increasing the levels of enzymes and reducing the antinutrient levels. Sprouting has no relevance to a rawpalaeo diet high in raw fruits and low in raw veg, as such a diet has very few antinutrients and has plenty of enzymes in it already. More to the point, sprouts are an aspect of RAW diets, not cooked diets:- while they are certainly useful in countering some of the negative aspects of cooked diets(such as the lack of enzymes etc.) , they are irrelevant to raw, palaeolithic diets.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #67 on: January 22, 2011, 05:55:38 am »
few cases? Go to the candida forums on Curezone and Healthboards which are probably the health-related forums that get the most traffic. Ask them what happens to their candida symptoms and health in general when they raw eat fruit, even in small amount. Then ask them how do they on cooked grains/tubers, the answers you'll get will contradict your statement. Maybe I'll do the exercise later.
Curezone and health boards are   very vague sites, hardly being representative of diets in general all over the web. Candida seems to be solved by a number of us rawpalaeos even if those are raw omnivores, so that kind of debunks the notion. Plus,  tubers like cassava cause other problems that are unrelated to blood-sugar. If you want to experiment, feel free to try a diet filled 50 percent with raw, wholly unprocessed cassava tubers, and you'll see what I mean!  l) l) ;D  >D -d ;) Even the cooked version of cassavas is notorious for causing widespread malnutrition among Africans.


More to the point, issues with carbs of any kind are merely one common type of symptom, and are gained due to decades on diets filled with refined, heavily processed/cooked carbs. So, cooking is still debunked that way. Plus, people who have issues with any raw carbs are in a minority here, anyway, judging from current polls.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 06:36:47 am by TylerDurden »
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Offline KD

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #68 on: January 22, 2011, 07:36:25 am »

  Invalid, as the whole point  of eating sprouts has little to do with fruit-sugars but far more to do with sprouting increasing the levels of enzymes and reducing the antinutrient levels. Sprouting has no relevance to a rawpalaeo diet high in raw fruits and low in raw veg, as such a diet has very few antinutrients and has plenty of enzymes in it already. More to the point, sprouts are an aspect of RAW diets, not cooked diets:- while they are certainly useful in countering some of the negative aspects of cooked diets(such as the lack of enzymes etc.) , they are irrelevant to raw, palaeolithic diets.

ok you go talk to Fred Bisci, Gabriel Cousens, and Brian Clement who combined have 100 years experience and record keeping and state 100% otherwise. You can even read their sucess stories about how they are still breathing. Please don't get back to me about the irrelevance of raw vegan diets. I have already basically proven that if all one has to do is replace one 'paleo' raw vegan food with another non paleo vegan food to ones advantage, obviously one can't cite the original food as being completely harmless or superior in all cases. Its a simple concept, which won't resonate on black and white thinking which seems to plague many health communities. Just because people run into all kinds of awful rabbit holes and curezone forums doesn't meant the issues are not real. I guarantee as I have already stated that no matter on vegan, cooked vegan, raw omnivore or raw carnivore, decreasing fresh raw modern fruits can be crucial for health, and thats all one needs to know to not randomly slander people who bring up the advantages of wild fruits or other exotic foods that might require processing to garner nutrition. People who 'suceed' eating raw fruits don't prove otherwise, particularly when they can be proven to unessential to others, at least on a regular basis. Even if I agree that perhaps the ideal human can eat SOME fruit carbs without issues, this is basically unhelpful as a strategy for those you cannot any more than added fats or cooked food or any other thing.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 07:41:55 am by KD »

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #69 on: January 22, 2011, 08:26:38 am »
ok you go talk to Fred Bisci, Gabriel Cousens, and Brian Clement who combined have 100 years experience and record keeping and state 100% otherwise. You can even read their sucess stories about how they are still breathing. Please don't get back to me about the irrelevance of raw vegan diets. I have already basically proven that if all one has to do is replace one 'paleo' raw vegan food with another non paleo vegan food to ones advantage, obviously one can't cite the original food as being completely harmless or superior in all cases. Its a simple concept, which won't resonate on black and white thinking which seems to plague many health communities. Just because people run into all kinds of awful rabbit holes and curezone forums doesn't meant the issues are not real. I guarantee as I have already stated that no matter on vegan, cooked vegan, raw omnivore or raw carnivore, decreasing fresh raw modern fruits can be crucial for health, and thats all one needs to know to not randomly slander people who bring up the advantages of wild fruits or other exotic foods that might require processing to garner nutrition. People who 'suceed' eating raw fruits don't prove otherwise, particularly when they can be proven to unessential to others, at least on a regular basis. Even if I agree that perhaps the ideal human can eat SOME fruit carbs without issues, this is basically unhelpful as a strategy for those you cannot any more than added fats or cooked food or any other thing.
  All meaningless, as people who do not benefit from raw plant foods, do indeed benefit far more from some or all raw animal foods.


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Offline Iguana

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #70 on: January 23, 2011, 05:09:40 pm »
GS, you didn't answer to that question about the price of durians:
Is that about 2.30 € / kg ? (I found 1.00 PHP = 0.0167795 EUR)

I add that eating a lot of rambutans (just as you mentioned, perhaps 10 kg in 2 -3 days) did not cause any tooth decay on me. GCB wrote that his children who always had a lot of tropical fruits at disposal don't have any tooth decay.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Hanna

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #71 on: January 23, 2011, 09:42:44 pm »
Quote from: Hanna on Yesterday at 02:59:39 AM
Instinctos usually do not restrict themselves to seasonal foods at all since they typically believe that humans are adapted to a supposed tropical fruit paradise.

I don't believe anything of that sort

No. You just eat lots of sweet fruit all year round and claim that your diet is "paleo".  l)

Quote
Are there some significant differences between your current views / diet and the instincto ones?

I have tried to explain my views for 173 posts. For example:
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/instinctoanopsology/mechanical-food-processing-and-fermented-foods/msg43658/#msg43658
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/instinctoanopsology/mechanical-food-processing-and-fermented-foods/msg44943/#msg44943

You will certainly agree that coconut puree isn´t instincto. I even think that fresh carrot juice is preferable to chewing carrots. In my case, carrot juice has usually a very quick "instinctive stop".

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Do you believe our hominids (and apes) ancestors ate cooked tubers even before mastering the fire?  ;)  ???

 We don´t know when fire was mastered. Nobody knows.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #72 on: January 23, 2011, 11:42:23 pm »
No. You just eat lots of sweet fruit all year round and claim that your diet is "paleo".  l)
Technically speaking, those in the tropics in the palaeo era would indeed have been eating sweet fruits all year round.

Quote
We don´t know when fire was mastered. Nobody knows.
  Not quite. Scientists have plentiful evidence for cooking having gotten started c. 300,000 years ago. Some possible evidence exists for the invention of fire(and its use for wamrth not cooking) occurring up to 200,000 years earlier than that, although this is heavily disputed. There are also very vague, very few claims made for earlier periods, up to 1.9 million years ago or so, but these are largely held in ridicule within the scientific community due to several inherent flaws in those claims.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Offline Iguana

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #73 on: January 24, 2011, 04:48:24 am »
No. You just eat lots of sweet fruit all year round and claim that your diet is "paleo".  l)

By “RAW paleo” I mean without Neolithic food such as dairy and cereals and without cooking.

Don’t forget that animals interfere with their environment. For example, the only primary forest where there are plenty cempedaks, jackfruits and durians are the rainforest populated by apes such as orangutans. They have spread the seeds of the fruits they like and eat. Therefore we can’t know how was the environment of the hominids before they mastered the fire. Once they cooked, they certainly ate so much cooked carbs (tubers probably) that they were no longer interested in raw fruits and stopped to select and spread their seeds. They certainly set the fire to vast areas where the secondary vegetation  growing after the fire had nothing in common with the primary forest they used to live and feed in before. 

Quote
I have tried to explain my views for 173 posts. For example:
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/instinctoanopsology/mechanical-food-processing-and-fermented-foods/msg43658/#msg43658
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/instinctoanopsology/mechanical-food-processing-and-fermented-foods/msg44943/#msg44943

Ok, thanks to remind me. And I answered you this, amongst other things:
Even if there was no grinders and blenders in the Paleolithoc era, I don’t think grinding food is too bad; in the case of someone missing teeth it can be the best solution to still eat raw. But if our natural grinder (our mouth with teeth) is in working order, why recourse to an external grinder? Of course, it’s not “forbidden” (everybody being free to eat and process whatever he or she likes). Everything has advantages and shortcoming, and so it is for grinding. The main shortcomings of grinding seem to me that we mix different parts of the stuff, some of these parts we might not have eaten when unprocessed so that we could eat the parts we like and reject the parts tasting bad. Per example, once meat is ground, we can no longer choose the ratio of fat to muscle because everything is mixed. If you grind carrots or make carrot juice, you cannot spit out and reject the possible bad one since it’ll be mixed with all the others.

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You will certainly agree that coconut puree isn´t instincto.

Yes, I agree. Sorry, I didn’t remember you stance on grinding.

Quote
I even think that fresh carrot juice is preferable to chewing carrots. In my case, carrot juice has usually a very quick "instinctive stop".

Another arguments for chewing is to use our organs instead of a prosthesis. If we don’t use it, our organs become atrophied. Just like the use of shoes makes our soles tender and feeble.     

Quote
We don´t know when fire was mastered. Nobody knows.

It doesn’t matter since we specify RAW paleo: it means we don’t cook, just like our ancestors before they started cooking, whenever it was.

Cheers
Francois
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Non-mutant fruits and vegetables
« Reply #74 on: January 24, 2011, 07:09:11 am »
GS, you didn't answer to that question about the price of durians:
I add that eating a lot of rambutans (just as you mentioned, perhaps 10 kg in 2 -3 days) did not cause any tooth decay on me. GCB wrote that his children who always had a lot of tropical fruits at disposal don't have any tooth decay.
Is that supposed to somehow negate the experience of GS' family that he reported? Are you claiming that your and GCB's children's experience holds for all?

Technically speaking, those in the tropics in the palaeo era would indeed have been eating sweet fruits all year round.
Not according to the Hadza research, where there was apparently some seasonality to at least the berries they favored, whereas the tubers were apparently plentiful year-round, as Hannah pointed out. Did you miss the posts on it? Do you have other research which contradicts it? I'm open to whatever the facts are. So far I'm only seeing opinion coming from you on this.

I love berries and fruits and would love it if it turned out that the Instincto stories about them were true and that I thrived on sweet fruits year round. So far I'm not finding either to be the case, but I would be thrilled to find that they were, so please do share any evidence you've found regarding Stone Age or hunter-gatherer consumption of plentiful year-round berries and fruits in tropical Africa.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2011, 07:14:24 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

 

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