Author Topic: Mostly meat diets: premature aging, osteoporosis etc. or perfect health?  (Read 13128 times)

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Offline Hanna

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I read about premature aging of the Nenets (raw meat eating Siberian deindeer herders) and the Eskimos. Yesterday I read this:

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The Eskimos* by comparison rated this description by Dr Samuel Hutton, who observed them over the period 1902 to 1913, from his book Health Conditions and Disease Incidence Among the Eskimos of Labrador:
Old age sets in at fifty and its signs are strongly marked at sixty. In the years beyond sixty the Eskimo is aged and feeble. Comparatively few live beyond sixty and only a very few reach seventy. Those who live to such an age have spent a life of great activity, feeding on Eskimo foods and engaging in characteristically Eskimo pursuits . . . Careful records have been left by the missionaries for more than a hundred years.

It was also noted that the Eskimos had very low resistance to infectious diseases and suffered severe osteoporosis as they got older. A later study of a small population (about 1000) on the east coast of Greenland by Hoygaard and Pedersen, Copenhagen 1941, showed an average lifespan of only twenty-seven and a half years mainly due to premature degeneration of adults. Their diet was ninety-five per cent flesh food but it was not stated whether the Eskimos had adopted the white man's practice of cooking their food.

http://chestofbooks.com/health/natural-cure/Ross-Horne/Health-and-Survival-in-the-21st-Century/Toxemia-and-the-Diseases-of-Civilization-Part-3.html

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It has been said in a previous article that I found the exclusive meat diet in New York to be stimulating - I felt energetic and optimistic both winter and summer. Perhaps it may be considered that meat is, overall, a stimulating diet, in the sense that metabolic processes are speeded up. You are then living at a faster rate, which means you would grow up rapidly and get old soon. This is perhaps confirmed by that early maturing of Eskimo women which I have heretofore supposed to be mainly due to their almost complete protection from chill - they live in warm dwellings and dress warmly so that the body is seldom under stress to maintain by physiological processes a temperature balance. It may be that meat as a speeder-up of metabolism explains in part both that Eskimo women are sometimes grandmothers before the age of twenty-three, and that they usually seem as old at sixty as our women do at eighty.

http://www.biblelife.org/stefansson3.htm


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The Eskimos were very familiar with constipation due to their low-fiber diet, and they created the spirit Matshishkapeu, the most powerful spirit in their mythology, to embody it.  The spirit's name literally translates into "Fart Man." In Inuit stories, he is known to inflict painful cases of constipation upon people and other gods (7).
(...)
For instance, in 1976, before the worst of the processed food crisis hit them, they consumed 2,000 mg of calcium a day from all the soft-bone fish they ate, a huge amount. All the same, they had (and still have) the highest hip-fracture rate in the world becuase they consume so much animal protein from fish (19).

http://www.raw-food-health.net/Primal-Diet.html

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Mostly meat diets: premature aging, osteoporosis etc. or perfect health?
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2011, 12:41:38 am »
The 3rd link is just utter drivel, being raw vegan propaganda.

This myth re Eskimoes and rapid aging sounds very dodgy to me. I mean, it is possible that the very harsh life of the Eskimoes, re cold etc. might have meant most of them died before reaching 60 or 70, but the notion that they rapidly aged due to their diet appears ridiculous. Besides, the claims are clearly exaggerated:- I mean "grandmothers at 23"??? 
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Offline RawZi

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Re: Mostly meat diets: premature aging, osteoporosis etc. or perfect health?
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2011, 01:30:14 am »
    The first link reminds me of http://www.amazon.com/Survival-into-21st-Century-Planetary/dp/0933278047 this author.  Anne Wigmore loved him when I knew her and she was very uncomfortable about Brian Clements, the guy who has the present Hippocrates Institute.  So I always liked Viktoras.  Even so, he hates meat eaters, so I wouldn't be surprised of someone like him spreading a skewed story that Eskimo diet causes osteoporosis. I doubt it does as Eskimo means someone who eats raw meat, and when I started eating raw meat my jaw widened and my bones got stronger.

    I wasn't there when she birthed her first or any of them, but I met a large family (third world), the mother and all the her (adult) children stated that she was eleven years older than her oldest son.  She and all her children (not their spouses) and their grandchildren were living in the same house still when I met them.  Luckily because of the house size (not big) there weren't many grandchildren yet and her kids had children at much later ages than her. She looked much older than her stated age, and was not on any kind of paleo diet.  Anyway, if one of her children would have started as young as her, 23 would be grandmother age.
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Offline Löwenherz

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Re: Mostly meat diets: premature aging, osteoporosis etc. or perfect health?
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2011, 04:28:51 am »
I believe that TOO MUCH protein accelerates the aging process. But how much is too much?

Nora Gedgaudas and others recommend low carb, LOW protein plus VERY high fat diets regarding longevity and aging.

I don't know what to think about this mTOR story. Here is one interesting article, confusing and unclear like almost all scientific works:

http://www.impactaging.com/papers/v1/n7/full/100070.html

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Offline Löwenherz

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Re: Mostly meat diets: premature aging, osteoporosis etc. or perfect health?
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2011, 04:49:52 am »
Moin Hanna,

I have eaten tons of raw meat in the last years and my teeth got much stronger. Therefore I think that it's unlikely that other bones get weaker from meat.

Lex Rooker is eating a zero carb zero plant diet for several years now. Look at his journal in this forum. He has written about his bone density scans. No signs of osteoporosis, if I remember correctly.

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Offline Hanna

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Re: Mostly meat diets: premature aging, osteoporosis etc. or perfect health?
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2011, 11:22:38 pm »
 
I believe that TOO MUCH protein accelerates the aging process. But how much is too much?

Nora Gedgaudas and others recommend low carb, LOW protein plus VERY high fat diets regarding longevity and aging.

I don't know what to think about this mTOR story. Here is one interesting article, confusing and unclear like almost all scientific works:

http://www.impactaging.com/papers/v1/n7/full/100070.html

Löwenherz


Whew! I just read the article, at least in part. Where did you get this article / mTOR-story from? Never heard of it before.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Mostly meat diets: premature aging, osteoporosis etc. or perfect health?
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2011, 02:50:51 am »
The first and third links that Hannah cited are vegan propaganda, which Tyler pointed out regarding the third.
The first link is from Ross Horne, a vegan propagandist with a fruitarian tilt who died from prostate cancer (http://www.vegsource.com/talk/raw/messages/12457.html). According to this article, Rawzi is correct that Horne's approach was similar to that of Viktoras Kulvinskas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruitarianism. Incidentally, Viktoras Kulvinskas looks older than his age, not that that proves anything any more than Stefansson's anecdotal claim does:


Viktoras Kulvinskas, born 2/23/1939 (per http://www.astrotheme.com/portraits/9eq5b67wE9rk.htm)


Kulvinskas was 70 years old at the time this image was posted in June of 2010 (his actual age might have been even younger in this image, if it was taken much before the date it was posted).

Compare to meat-loving Art De Vany at age 71 (again, I'm not saying that this proves anything, just highlighting the ridiculousness of the vegan propaganda):

The Stefansson link is somewhat more credible, but Tyler has pointed out in the past that Stefansson was not accurate about everything and there were many other adventurers and scientists whose reports on the Inuit differed somewhat from Stefansson's. Plus, it's telling that the vegan and vegetarian sources that cite this quote of Stefansson cherry pick it out and ignore all the many positive things he said about meat-based diets. For credible counter evidence, try googling on the terms "carnosine" and "anti-aging."

Even if the claims about Eskimo premature aging and short lifespans are true, it wouldn't necessarily mean that high protein intake was the source. Other possibilities include excessively high intake of n3--especially heated n3--the concentrating effects of white snow on sunlight exposure to the face, and inhalation of smoke from oil lamps and pipe smoking , though smoke and concentrated sunlight might not explain the alleged difference in aging and lifespan between Inuit and other aboriginal peoples.

If anything, the images of the elders of the Great Plains tend to appear more wrinkly and aged to me than those of Inuit elders, and there I suspect that sunlight is the biggest likely factor, with smoke and introduction of modern foods being other possible factors.

Hanna, are you eating an Eskimo-type diet? If not, what are you worrying yourself about it for? What was the source of the claim about Nenets aging prematurely (I hope it wasn't another vegan propaganda source)?

For those who want to eat a meat-heavy diet and reduce their risks, it may be wise to avoid overcooking, heating of n3's, and excessive smoke inhalation and to make sure to eat enough organs, raw and fermented foods, and/or seafoods, all of which the Eskimos tended to include in their diets (and even Stefansson acknowledged that the Eskimos he observed loved loche fish livers) to minimize potential negative effects from overcooking and smoke and to get sufficient important nutrients and probiotic microbiota.

I plead with people to please investigate your sources carefully before you post anti-meat and anti-RPD info like in this thread, as it can unnecessarily scare newbies and easily-frightened folks and then Tyler and others have to waste time calming them down again.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 03:33:39 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline RawZi

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Re: Mostly meat diets: premature aging, osteoporosis etc. or perfect health?
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2011, 03:51:09 am »
    I haven't heard or read much about devany, but I've spoken with lots of raw vegans who claim to know kulvinskas personally. They told me stories of vk being bulemic and binging on coffee and bagels on an ongoing basis. I know he sells supplements, and although I chose to drop supplements around nine years ago, I feel sure his supplements are quality vegan supplements. Still if he indeed binges and makes up for it with pills or powders or the like, and if devany doesn't, could account partially for their difference in youth.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 03:59:53 am by TylerDurden »
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Mostly meat diets: premature aging, osteoporosis etc. or perfect health?
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2011, 06:45:06 am »
Possibly, but then one could make the same excuses for raw Paleo meat eaters that don't look good and it also raises the question of why Kulvinskas is bulemic and binging on coffee and bagels and not De Vany (and again, I'm not using De Vany to make any positive claims about Paleo diets--just pointing out the absurd weakness of extreme vegan claims, sources and alleged evidence) if Kulvinskas' vegan diet is as satisfying and healthy as he and his supporters have claimed. Besides, don't coffee and bagels at least qualify as vegetarian, though not raw vegan and wouldn't Kulvinskas and his supporters argue that cooked vegetarian is vastly superior to raw Paleo omnivore? If anyone wants to eat a raw vegan diet, go ahead and then report the results, but don't expect me to be frightened into abandoning raw Paleo by the opinions of sources like the writings of Ross Horne, www.raw-food-health.net, and Kulvinskas. Tyler is right and none of the cited vegan sources are credible. They actually unintentionally undermine veganism.

P.S. To me "quality vegan supplements" is almost an oxymoron, so you're not exactly winning me over with that. You'd have better luck with "quality whole raw animal, plant, and sea foods."
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 07:02:12 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Löwenherz

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« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2011, 01:38:31 am »
Whew! I just read the article, at least in part. Where did you get this article / mTOR-story from? Never heard of it before.

"Primal Body, Primal Mind" is the title of the book from Nora Gedgaudas. It's an interesting read, although it contains some contradictions, for example IGF-1 and dairy etc.

Nora Gedgaudas stands close to the Weston A Price Foundation and is a big fan of milk products. Therefore the book doesn't deserve the title "paleo", IMO.

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Offline Löwenherz

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High Fruit, cancer and ulcers
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2011, 02:05:27 am »
The first and third links that Hannah cited are vegan propaganda, which Tyler pointed out regarding the third.
The first link is from Ross Horne, a vegan propagandist with a fruitarian tilt who died from prostate cancer
Maybe we should write a list with people who have eaten a long term high fruit diet and died from cancer. It doesn't seem to be uncommon.

Here is an article about fructose and cancer from good old Mercola (one of many about fructose + cancer):

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/08/27/warning--fructose-feeds-cancer-cells.aspx

And then there are numerous reports about heavy fruit eaters and tropical ulcers. These ulcers often become cancerous:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropical_ulcer

"They are often initiated by minor trauma, and subjects with POOR NUTRITION are at higher risk"
What does "poor nutrition" mean? High sugar, low animal protein and fat. It makes all sense in the bigger picture.

By the way, the following current well-known fruit sugar promoters suffered from tropical ulcers:

- Doug Graham
- Durianriders
- Freelea
- Anne Osborne
- Mango fruitarian

and surely many more.

Löwenherz

Offline Hanna

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Re: Mostly meat diets: premature aging, osteoporosis etc. or perfect health?
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2011, 03:11:55 am »
Hi Phil,

Quote
The first and third links that Hannah cited are vegan propaganda (...) the first link is from Ross Horne, a vegan propagandist with a fruitarian tilt
The point is that Horne cites another source which may be more credible. In the third link even a scientific study is cited.

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What was the source of the claim about Nenets aging prematurely (I hope it wasn't another vegan propaganda source)?
There was a travel report written by a man from Great Britain (no vegan) who lived with the Nenets for a while. I read it some time ago but am not able to find the page again. The life of the Nenets seems to be very harsh because of the cold winds, so maybe an exhausting life (and the corresponding great energy consumption?) causes seemingly rapid aging?

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Hanna, are you eating an Eskimo-type diet? If not, what are you worrying yourself about it for?

I don´t worry about this topic, I´m just interested in it!


Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Mostly meat diets: premature aging, osteoporosis etc. or perfect health?
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2011, 11:01:38 am »
Hi Phil,
The point is that Horne cites another source which may be more credible. In the third link even a scientific study is cited.
Well if you read the original sources and found them informative, let me know and I'll try to take a look at them.

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There was a travel report written by a man from Great Britain (no vegan) who lived with the Nenets for a while. I read it some time ago but am not able to find the page again. The life of the Nenets seems to be very harsh because of the cold winds, so maybe an exhausting life (and the corresponding great energy consumption?) causes seemingly rapid aging?
Interesting. Let me know if you find it. If the aging effect is real then maybe it could be due to the combination of high winds, extreme drying cold, snow-focused sunlight and other factors? It makes me wonder how well desert peoples age.
 
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I don´t worry about this topic, I´m just interested in it!
Cool, a fellow mad scientist.  O0
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Sahira

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Re: Mostly meat diets: premature aging, osteoporosis etc. or perfect health?
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2011, 09:21:34 pm »
 :D Hi, i'm new...but I must reply to the issue with Kulvinskas etc - he actually stated in one of his youtube video series that eskimoes 'have bones of steel' and 'bounces' right back if getting ill etc - he might have called them something like 'superhumans' - it is hard to hear what he says sometimes. I've noticed something odd though, on long term raw foodist and fruitarians: their body language. The mem seem to suffer from  hunch back and feminine and their gesture/ hands are very odd, don't have the proper words for it (I'm swedish) and the female too like Ann Osborne is very hunch back and physically weak looking, thin, dizzy eyes (very common, see Kulvinskas for example)) and they ALL seem to lack proper saliva or too much in their mouth. Just a thought I've noticed when they speak. Also, when i compared two guys in the extreme on my quest for a good dietary lifestyle; Graham and our swedish famous raw paleo eater Fredrik Colting, I could see a huge different in skin, physicality etc. Colting is way a head all of these raw fooders...in everything. His brother Jonas Colting (athlete) actually tells us that his brother Fredrik is stronger and more fit than he is!  :D
Anyway; for an eskimo to suffer from severe boneloss I can only speculate when I watch them run across the ice, hunting etc. If so they would easily break every bone in their body, hunting away - but they are more fit than my viking grand mother...and she is 84. No, in order to successfully survive these harsh conditions like the eskimoes etc must do, they need strong, super fit physic and you cannot simply thrive up there if your food intake wasn't healthy enough...I'd go for the raw meat diet for sure... 8)
« Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 12:39:02 am by TylerDurden »

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Mostly meat diets: premature aging, osteoporosis etc. or perfect health?
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2011, 07:37:44 am »
Thanks for the input. Yes, I too have noticed the feminine and frail appearance, spacey/dizzy eyes and behavior (as in Kulvinskas, yes), aged-looking or ashen-gray/zombie-like skin, etc., of many raw vegans and fruitarians. I myself was becoming more feminized when I was eating lots of "healthy whole grains" with plenty of fruits and veggies. I had been developing moobs. I also suffered from mental fog, dry mouth and saggy skin with poor elasticity that was dry and oily at the same time. A cooked-and-raw-plant-food-based diet nearly destroyed me. Thankfully those symptoms went away with a Paleo diet, especially raw Paleo that is founded more on raw animal foods and raw fermented honey.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Sahira

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Re: Mostly meat diets: premature aging, osteoporosis etc. or perfect health?
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2011, 06:08:40 am »
Hello, Paleophil, that was very supporting - I thought I was alone in my way of thinking there. Yes, initially it seems that fruits etc give you a tremendous amounts of benefits but then something happens - I look at young Josh Fossgreen how he has lost some of his glow and also on Arnstein on his latest video - scawny, scary and not healthy lookin (could be other factos though..but still). I dread the day when they wake up...I will try the raw meat approach. I cannot take cooked foods - I get to stiff, tired and weak so I'll try the raw paleo way - not fully there yet  8)
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 03:33:27 pm by TylerDurden »

Offline DrLongevityCode

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Re: Mostly meat diets: premature aging, osteoporosis etc. or perfect health?
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2011, 09:06:44 am »
Fundamentally, this is a logic problem. You see, it's not what the Eskimos' were eating, it is what they were NOT eating. Many observers note lower cancer rates in them due to the high healthy fat content, but because they lacked fiber and plant materials, they must be considered one of the most extreme human conditions. To attach them to a modern diet, one would have to say they are old school Atkins. He believed we were carnivores, purely. As in all things, moderation. Faces give nothing away about aging. Cells do, however. General observations about a population are not scientific. If that were the case, Alabama would be considered the worst population sample ever and they live in a place with abundant supplies of everything. Don't let eskimos' issues take you off the path.

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Mostly meat diets: premature aging, osteoporosis etc. or perfect health?
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2011, 10:06:17 am »
Fruit and cancer.:There have been LOTS of people that have cured cancer on fruit diets. The grape diet is quite successful for instance. 

Does this mean that we should eat that way regularly or that it means that something that cures cancer is good or bad as a general or exclusive food? Certainly not.

Condemning fruit because of some studies regarding fructose makes no sense to me at all.

I remember seeing before and after pictures of Kulvinskas 30 years ago. God - the guy looked truly horrible in his before pictures! I never saw such a wrinkly dude - and that was before he started into raw foods. I think if I remember right he cured himself of some real nasty diseases going raw. I honestly can't believe he made it into his 70's with where he came from originally.

It's just too easy to think that because a disease cures an illness that it is a diet that is right for everything. It's also dangerous to look at individuals' appearances and come to any real conclusions. All the samplings so far are so very tiny.

I've heard rumors here about Wigmore that I know not to be true so I wouldn't go around believing rumors about Kulvinskas either.  Wigmore moved and functioned with amazing alacrity for her age after having cancer a couple of times and most of her intestines removed as a child. You can't leave out medical history, dna, exercise or personal stresses from the equation. Many people got into raw food because they were about to die.

The theory behind eating RAFs makes sense and so far (in the right amounts for me) and has done me good. Trying to gleam some intelligence from our ancestors seems to me to be prudent. Gossip and oversimplifications I don't find very useful - from any camp.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 03:34:26 pm by TylerDurden »

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Mostly meat diets: premature aging, osteoporosis etc. or perfect health?
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2011, 10:50:52 am »
it's not what the Eskimos' were eating, it is what they were NOT eating.
That's a good summary. Another thing to keep in mind is that they didn't have a rule against eating all plant foods and did eat some plant foods (such as berries) if and when they were available.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 11:13:45 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Mostly meat diets: premature aging, osteoporosis etc. or perfect health?
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2011, 10:57:22 am »
Condemning fruit because of some studies regarding fructose makes no sense to me at all.
Same here, it's the worst sort of reductionism.

Quote
I remember seeing before and after pictures of Kulvinskas 30 years ago. God - the guy looked truly horrible in his before pictures!
Interesting, so he got younger-looking over the years with raw foods? Do you have some of those before images you could share with us?

Quote
It's just too easy to think that because a disease cures an illness that it is a diet that is right for everything. It's also dangerous to look at individuals' appearances and come to any real conclusions. All the samplings so far are so very tiny.
Bear in mind that it's in response to people like Kulvinskas who promote themselves as healthier than most and call on others to eat like them and sell books or products. A little skeptical questioning of gurus making claims can be healthy, though it is true that it can go overboard. I don't get the sense that anyone means it to be proof of anything, more a source of skeptical questioning--a starting point for discussion rather than a final answer. If there are explanations for why Kulvinskas looks like death yet claims his diet is uber healthy for the masses and is "the key to preserving youthfulness" and "reversing the aging process," by all means lets see them.

Some like me have experienced damage that certain plant foods or certain plant-heavy diets can do in certain individuals, so it's not like we don't have good reason to be skeptical of extraordinary claims by gurus promoting extreme plant-based diets for the masses.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 11:19:04 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Mostly meat diets: premature aging, osteoporosis etc. or perfect health?
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2011, 12:29:12 am »
Yeah - I see your point Phil. Skepticism I think is a sign of intelligence.  ;)

I don't have those pictures Phil - It was so very long ago.

I think part of my persnickitiness (if that's a word) is that Kulvinskas was the guy that wrote a book that made me question cooking and got me started on a diet that was so much better for me than what I was on before. He thought outside of the box and got my mind to go there too. So many years later and the advent of the internet where people can get together and evaluate and open their minds to even more options and ideas, which has made clear some of the concerns, problems and mishaps of the diet because people can get together and see and share results ... now makes some of what he says and has said no longer seem like the whole picture and perhaps very bad for some ........ and yet........ he's a bit like the closest thing I have to an ancestor. He got at least some of the picture when no one else had an inkling. That makes me feel a comradeship, warmth and affection for the guy. There are so few people on the planet that even all this time later suggest that eating things raw is a good thing. He might have some tunnel vision around raw animal foods and he might be misguided or uninformed or even unbalanced, but I do give him credit where credit I feel is due him and to view him a bit more holistically in terms of where he came from and the time from which he came.

I do understand what you are saying, Phil and yes, it does make sense to critically evaluate claims especially when they are a bit grandiose accompanied by attacking comments. I just wish he didn't make those claims and that he could continue to fight his way out of boxes. Sigh.

Being a guru is hard that way. You say something and get stuck or you get stagnant or you can't find your way out of the newer bigger box you stepped into after others get into an even bigger box (thanks to you) and point out that your box is small.  Sigh.

Offline RawZi

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Re: Mostly meat diets: premature aging, osteoporosis etc. or perfect health?
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2011, 01:43:39 am »
(dorothy)I remember seeing before and after pictures of Kulvinskas 30 years ago. God - the guy looked truly horrible in his before pictures!
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    Yes.  First he was fruitarian and looked like dried out skinny death.  Then he was sproutarian and looked more lively and had a better aura.  This was only pictures at the time, I hadn't seen him in person.
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Re: Mostly meat diets: premature aging, osteoporosis etc. or perfect health?
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2011, 08:54:54 am »
OK, Dorothy and Rawzi, I'll take your word for it that Kulvinskas looked good early on in his sproutarian diet and that he's a good guy who sounds like he's just misguided. I've noticed that some vegans don't experience major health or aging issues until more than ten years after they started doing it. Maybe something like that happened to him?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
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Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

 

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