Warm Breakfast in Fall

[eveheart]

I value this forum for its "raw paleo diet"-ness. That seems to be the main idea, and it has been very useful for its intended purpose. What I like best about rawpaleodietforum is that it has a clear focus.

I do not understand what purpose would be served by side-lights on topics such as "cooked" or "vegan". To me, that would make it harder to find the information that brought me here.

Also, I find it hard to understand the concept of transitioning. Instead of transitioning by adding a dab of raw to a cooked diet, I suggest jumping in for a few weeks and seeing how that goes. I made a 2-week commitment at first, then re-enlisted for another 30 days... by which time I had enough experience and good results that I decided to keep raw paleo going indefinitely.

My 2 cents worth. Thank you.

[TylerDurden]

Some observations:-

1) The Raw Weston-Price Diet forum was, initially, just an idea to get people to transition to a raw, palaeolithic diet away from WAPF ideas re cooking etc.

We need to include a Raw Weston-Price Diet forum as WP was a major influence on RVAF diets. Sure, he also recommended a lot of cooked foods, and I don't think it's the end of the world to discuss the less harmful types of cooking that WP recommended re boiling etc. in that very forum.

We should probably allow just 1 extra "transitioning" forum so that people who are slowly switching from raw vegan or cooked-palaeodiets can ask about less harmful types of cooking or which raw animal foods are the easiest to get used to and the like.

While people like me prefer to switch suddenly to a RVAF diet, others prefer to take it slowly, gradually reducing the cooking-temperature and sauces over weeks/months until they can eat/enjoy raw meats on their own at room-temperature. Some claim that the latter method slows down the usual detox that accompanies a sudden switch to a RVAF diet.

SkinnyDevil has already refused moderatorship before, due to other commitments.

[Dorothy]

If there was a transitioning forum maybe my husband would join. Not everyone can or wants to jump right in but is open.

As for the vegetarian raw animal foods and vegan section - I think KD is right and it would have to be it's own separate forum accepting it as what it is with strict moderation to not mess around elsewhere or do some animal rights or spiritually superiority shenanigans. I would enjoy such a forum as before trying to help my husband I was loving eating my raw vegan diet with raw eggs yolks, dairy and some fish every long once in a while with the vast majority of my diet usually plant-based. I think that seems to be where I will probably be heading almost back to eventually except that a small amount of meat and marrow seem to have taken the place of raw dairy. But first priority is to get hubbie really established on raw meat-based paleo.  My body is still being drawn to eating basically what I did on a raw vegetarian diet with some new options and here is the only place I can learn about those new options that I could find and I want to learn more about fish and meat even more so for my husband's transition to a more standard meat-based raw paleo diet. I can't be the only person who's body likes a primarily plant-based diet but who wants to know and is open-minded about all raw options available. Maybe the section should NOT be vegan, "but raw paleo vegetarian" - meaning all degrees of vegetarian from vegan up to ovo, lacto, pesco vegetarianism? I betcha that many that eat meat once a week or once a month or even once every three months might (odd as it seems) still consider themselves to be (or be perceived to be) vegetarians. It would be a safe place to come and explore the ideas of trying out raw eggs, milk and fish - and perhaps a place of more gentle consideration for the first most difficult steps and changes of perception.

I can understand fully Eve's desire to keep the forum's purpose pure. I guess it depends on if the moderators want to pull in more members and make the forum more active or not.... and if a good moderator (with the time) could be found.

[Dorothy]

Wal - is it ok if I shorten your name like that? - I thought of an idea for you with your super-sensitivity. I know that you feel like eating all the cooked foods gives you a broad nutrition base, but I wonder how you would feel if you cut out all those foods that you are so sensitive to even if they are cooked. How about for an experiment, eating only what you can eat raw and see how that goes? Doing it for a short time isn't going to cause any major long-term nutrient deficiencies and if you feel much better that way then you would have some new information to take into account. Cooking itself, as Tyler here so many times has pointed out, creates its own sets of toxins that you might also be sensitive to, and it might be the best approach for someone so sensitive to avoid as best as possible all such toxins - at least until maybe you can handle some later.... perhaps.

Just a thought.

[Waldpfad]

I've got a suggestion.  Frying is for idiots. I think you know that it's the worst possible way to cook, and you're deliberately choosing it to get attention.  Surely you're not ignorant or stupid enough to do it otherwise, hmm?  by cherimoya

And this is the reason I stopped coming here the last few days. I just now thought about reading up on things of interest and I stumbled upon your reply.
First of all, I did not know that frying stable saturated fats is bad. I was told on the Primal Blueprint forums that frying animal fats is the safest way of heating up fats.
I don't fry at high temperatures...my stove is set to a very low temperature (on #3 out of 12). The butter, coconut oil and animal fat barely melts, and i heat up my food. I love kidney fat all by itself and I refuse to eat it cold, out of the fridge, be my guest and do so.

As far as attention, No I don't want attention, but clearly youre doing something wrong in your diet for being so hateful toward others? What is lacking in you that you need to put others down? I have had NO clue that heating up fats in a pan on top of hte stove is BAD, how the hell else would I warm up my meals, hm?

I guess, there is no true home for me here afterall, I don't care, really. I will continue to warm up my meals and bone marrow and fats and whatnot in a frying pan on top of the stove, if people like it or not. Neanderthals surely used fire to heat up meals (not fry to death and kill proteins). So far, I've had tremendous health benefits switching from SAD to paleo/primal and I'm truly thankful for all the information that's available on different sites and forums, from guys and girls like here (except cherimoya).

Good Luck to you all,
Waldpfad

Btw, cherimoya, I posted this thread under Culinary Creations first, in hopes it would give people an idea of yet another breakfast, totally forgetting though that I'm on a raw forum. I was posting it to HELP, not get attention, oh hateful one.

[TylerDurden]

Cherimoya is merely making a point, that frying is generally one of the most harmful types of cooking. The safest type of cooking involves boiling. Cooking in moisture is the best way to reduce the formation of heat-created toxins, in particular advanced glycation end products and polyclic aromatic hydrocarbons.

[RawZi]

And this is the reason I stopped coming here the last few days. I just now thought about reading up on things of interest and I stumbled upon your reply.
First of all, I did not know that frying stable saturated fats is bad. I was told on the Primal Blueprint forums that frying animal fats is the safest way of heating up fats.

    I hope you continue here, or wherever is best.  I had a wake-up call too; because my path comes from long time vegan, and I didn't expect I was supposed to give up all of my vegan being or voice to be here.  But I like this forum.  I think it's one of the best on the net.  I've participated in Mark's Daily Apple and I like it and I'm still a member, but I like this one better.  I, like you, didn't know the differences between frying, boiling etc before being in this forum.  I learned though, and am grateful.  I thought they were all unhealthy for me, and did none.  Since, I have tried making bone broths.  Turns out they're not so bad as broiling.  Still, not my thing.  There were some members here, some stayed, who low temp heated fats to eat.

    Take care,
RawZi

[Dorothy]

Hey Wal - Here's a really big piece of information and if you understand it correctly - you probably will want to stay.

Cherimoya banned me when I first came here because I talked too much about having been a raw vegan in the past. I didn't understand the place well and talked too much without reading first. I probably still am annoying. 

But recently - I'm pretty sure that he might have saved my husband's life with a suggestion for me.

I came here because I had the great good fortune of meeting PaleoPhil on another forum and learned from him for a couple of years first. And....... I met the gentle and lovely RawZi before coming here too. There are people here with the kind of experience and knowledge that you aren't going to find anywhere else..... including Cherimoya.

So - what did you think of my suggestion for you?

[cherimoya_kid]

I've got a suggestion.  Frying is for idiots. I think you know that it's the worst possible way to cook, and you're deliberately choosing it to get attention.  Surely you're not ignorant or stupid enough to do it otherwise, hmm?  by cherimoya

And this is the reason I stopped coming here the last few days. I just now thought about reading up on things of interest and I stumbled upon your reply.
First of all, I did not know that frying stable saturated fats is bad. I was told on the Primal Blueprint forums that frying animal fats is the safest way of heating up fats.
I don't fry at high temperatures...my stove is set to a very low temperature (on #3 out of 12). The butter, coconut oil and animal fat barely melts, and i heat up my food. I love kidney fat all by itself and I refuse to eat it cold, out of the fridge, be my guest and do so.

As far as attention, No I don't want attention, but clearly youre doing something wrong in your diet for being so hateful toward others? What is lacking in you that you need to put others down? I have had NO clue that heating up fats in a pan on top of hte stove is BAD, how the hell else would I warm up my meals, hm?

I guess, there is no true home for me here afterall, I don't care, really. I will continue to warm up my meals and bone marrow and fats and whatnot in a frying pan on top of the stove, if people like it or not. Neanderthals surely used fire to heat up meals (not fry to death and kill proteins). So far, I've had tremendous health benefits switching from SAD to paleo/primal and I'm truly thankful for all the information that's available on different sites and forums, from guys and girls like here (except cherimoya).

Good Luck to you all,
Waldpfad

Btw, cherimoya, I posted this thread under Culinary Creations first, in hopes it would give people an idea of yet another breakfast, totally forgetting though that I'm on a raw forum. I was posting it to HELP, not get attention, oh hateful one.

Frying techniques are not welcome here.   Eating cold fat does not bother me.  Cold meat/fish is more difficult, but fat is easy to eat cold. If you're not open to a raw diet, you don't belong.

[Dorothy]

I think he's trying Cherimoya - he just needs more information.

Wal - if you search out Tyler's information on the toxins that cooking creates in foods it might really help you because you are so sensitive to toxins. Maybe no one has told you what cooking does to food and how frying is the worst yet. Tyler is the go-to man here for learning about those things. He's like an encyclopedia of the research done on cooking and what different forms of cooking will do to your food.

I think that you are under a misconception that you need a wide variety of foods to thrive. You would be surprised. For instance there's this dude here named Lex (check out his journal - fascinating) that eats nothing but ground up whole beef and fat and has really improved his health.

Many people here don't eat a lot of the things that you think you have to cook - at all - and thrive.

[RawZi]

For instance there's this dude here named Lex (check out his journal - fascinating) that eats nothing but ground up whole beef and fat and has really improved his health.

   Lex was probably older than I am now when he found raw paleo.  He had also been through all those known diets correcting what he could from an incredibly sick infancy/childhood etc.  Zero carb raw seems to only improve him, unlike the medical treatments all along and the diets.

[billy4184]

Hi,
I cook my meat and eggs because they are from the supermarket and I have no idea how they have been treated. If I was on a farm I would consider changing, but I live in the city and I don't have enough money for organic stuff, not that I would trust them either.
For me, raw is VEGETABLES, and a little fruit and nuts. Most of my diet is raw.
I object to the idea that I cannot mention my cooked food, because my discussions must be taken in context if they are to be properly understood, and maybe help someone. I'm not here to spread misunderstanding, which is the worst characteristic of the internet.
If this is some kind of cult, where you can't disrupt the status quo or you will get exiled (or burned at the stake) then I'm out too. I'm not here to troll, and if I set off some fanatic then I consider that they are the troll and should be the one kicked out.
Cheers

[TylerDurden]

It's OK to mention cooked foods in the welcome section, the weston-price diet forum(after all WP's diet included cooked foods), and the hot topics forum. Also, in the Journals section if the thread's title makes it clear it's a partially raw diet.

I guess I would be very leery of someone constantly posting about the joys of eating Big Macs and other junk food since that is at the direct opposite end of the dietary spectrum from us, and it would be a bit strange for such a person to want to be a member here. But someone with Weston-Price-style beliefs would be fine as a member, given some shared beliefs.

[billy4184]

I guess I do fall pretty much into the WP category, but I only eat cooked because I have to. I'm trying to slowly increase my capacity for raw veggies, but I eat raw oats when I need it. The only cooked stuff I have to eat is meat and eggs.
I really envy you guys who can get your hands on wild and grass-fed meat, and I would love to try eating some raw meat for a while to see how I would go, but its not going to happen where I live. I'm going for a trip to South America soon and should be able to try some anyway

[TylerDurden]

If you're from Australia, then why not PM wodgina? He might know of easier ways to get hold of cheap, high quality raw meats. And there's always intermittent fasting to reduce the cost as well, without any impact on health.

[RawZi]

    Rawlion said IF negatively affected his health. I think a few others did too.

[Dorothy]

Hey Billy - I know something about eggs. Eggs from the supermarket are usually fed very badly and the natural protective bloom is washed off and often toxic substances put on to keep them fresh. Obviously not the best food - but you are eating them cooked anyway and I'm not sure that cooking them is going to really help you out as much as eating them raw - if you are going to eat them at all.

The white of the egg is going to get the most toxins absorbed through the eggshell. The eggs are not fertilized so the egg white might not even behoove you to eat anyway. Eating the yolk raw at least would not be putting in fats that have been heated and the correlating toxins from that.

I really doubt you are doing yourself any big favors cooking your egg yolks. If I were you I'd make sure I washed the eggs well with the best non-toxic soap I could get and eat only the yolks raw. I never got sick doing this before I had good eggs. I didn't do it often, but it was just fine and many folks on the internet that I have talked to about raw eggs also say that they eat store bought egg yolks raw and never got sick.

Generally, I believe that if you increase your exposure slowly to pathogens you teach your immune system to be able to handle them effectively and if you eat a diet with a higher percentage of raw fats and foods then your body/immune system will likely be generally stronger and better equipped to fight of an invasion. People get sick from cooked eggs too - more often than us raw animal fooders! People that eat a regular diet and a "bad" cooked egg are likely to get more sick I would think than I would if I went out and ate a raw egg with a hundred times more pathogens because my body has been trained. Immune systems learn.

[billy4184]

Tyler, I live on a boat without a fridge lol. That I manage to live this way only 5 minutes walk from the city is thanks to the Brisbane river. A fridge would definitely be a good investment, but I'm doing the student thing right now and don't have any spare cash lying around.
Dorothy, I would eat them raw if I saw them fall out of a chicken but it just doesn't feel right to eat these ones raw. I agree that humans learn to `tolerate' toxins and diseases but I believe its this which is the main cause for cancer later on in life. I know that cooking also creates toxins but I don't think that they are quite as bad. I will be doing some study on what exactly goes on with commercial eggs and may change my mind, but for example I understand that salmonella poisoning occurs most often in raw eggs. I will definitely be looking into this.
Cheers

[Dorothy]

Hi Billy. So you live on a boat on a budget without a refrigerator. That changes things in my mind. I wouldn't eat those eggs you are talking about at all ...... ESPECIALLY  cooked.

Think about it Billy. You are buying eggs from chickens that are not fed right and which are probably housed in horrific circumstances and under extreme stress and deprivation. These ARE the animals that will get salmonella. Free range eggs don't. But........ then on top of that those eggs are cleaned of their protective bloom and sprayed with some unknown substance (often oils leftover from big industries - like petroleum) that are considered to be "safe" if refrigerated and with the amount of absorption that can happen through osmosis of the egg. Then you are taking it home and leaving it out (where it is not "designed" to be"). Then you are still eating that protective egg white which is not fertilized and which is the next level in from that toxic stuff on the outside that is now in an environment that was never planned for.

Here is the ONLY way I would ever dream of eating those eggs if I was in a real pinch. I would take those eggs home and immediately wash them in the safest soap I could find - thoroughly. Then I would put them into olive oil with a little coconut oil as a natural protective substitute for the bloom instead of whatever crap sprayed on them. Olive oil has been used forever and the coconut is my thought because it is so good at killing most microbes. I would put them in the coldest and darkest place on the boat - maybe even on ice if you could get some with a cooler. Then I would eat only the yolk and not the white - and I would eat as many of them as fast as I could.

If you break open those eggs before getting off whatever is on the shell you take a big chance - even more so if you cook them - because then your body is weaker and you get the toxins from cooking and deprive yourself of much of the nutrition. That's my opinion. Who knows what those whites have absorbed? The whites are backup for the chicks and a bumper cushion. If you want to get the nutrition that is reserved for the growing chick - then eat the yolk. I'm not saying that healthy fertilized whites aren't good - I have no idea. But for me personally - I DO see the eggs come out of my very healthy free-ranging chickens, keep the bloom on and don't refrigerate them and I STILL don't think those whites are good for me........ and my dogs won't eat them.

I found out most of what I know about eggs from the research I did into getting chickens. I read many books on eggs and have talked my head off about chickens with chicken people.

Also - if you open up your eggs and the yolks do not stand up nicely or there are no stringy things attached to the yolk - the very well might be old. Don't be fooled by a nice deep yellow color - big businesses put chemicals into the feed to make it look that way. In the wild that would mean a good thing - that the chickens are getting beta carotene from greens - but from store bought eggs it means little.

There are other things you can do to make sure that they are fresh - but this message is getting so long that I'm becoming sure that Iguana is going to nail me!

[billy4184]

Hi Dorothy,
A very interesting and informative reply.
I DO get free range eggs, but that  doesn't mean I think they're healthy. Industries and supermarkets have to preserve their food somehow and the food regulations are such that you can put a label on something like `Organic' without having to report an array of chemicals and substances that are used in the process, which have been deemed so `safe' that there's no need to mention them. Sorry for my lack of clarity, by `commercial' I meant `not from my own farm'.
As for organic meat, its out of the question for me because of cost, and I have no way of storing it properly either.
You sure sound like you know your eggs

[Dorothy]

Hi Billy, I've learned that grass-fed is the word to watch for even more than organic. People have talked about that a bunch here. And......... they talk a lot about high meats. Tyler made a section for newbies on it you can read - that way you don't need refrigeration.

Free-range often can mean that only a few of the birds can get their feet onto cement without a roof or it can mean that they are treated real well. I found an independent study once of different farms in my area. It was outrageous the difference that can be under one label. You can probably do some research on your brand of eggs on-line to find out what they spray on the eggs and how they are raised.

I knew NOTHING about eggs and chickens but thought that I wanted some so had to study maybe more than others because of my complete and utter ignorance previously. I used the worldcat system at the library and got dozens of books from around the country on chickens and gobbled them in an intensive study. I still feel like I know so little. Ducks are my next project!