Salt is a chemical

[Nicola]

I had been eating salt for a while and now I have not eaten any for 3 day's because I felt that salt was acting up in my system. I asked Dr. Groves about salt and then "the Bear" and this it what I know now...

This is my post to Dr. Groves and his answer:

Hi Mr. Groves

Sorry, I am asking again because I get different answers who ever I ask about salt!!!! I am told that salt is IN any meat:

Meat has the optimal potassium to sodium ratio, about 5:1. Plant
eaters have to add salt to their foods so that this ratio is hit.
When you look in the history of salt you will see that salt was
needed when human started eating big amounts of grains and plants.

Cat and dog owners don't give fresh kill; they get raw meat from the shops...The meat given in the zoo's is not fresh kill...

Even eggs have salt.

You gave your advice to Jimmy More about "zero carb"; well Charles is in grate form on "zero carb" - just meat and water - he stoped using salt because he had cramps in the night. Lex (raw paleo forum) had cramps and has added salt and his cramps have gone (they came again with high fat!!!).

His answer:

They are right that there is salt in meat. But is there enough if the animal has been bled? No other carnivore bleeds its prey before eating it.

I find if I don't add salt, I doc get cramps in the night! So perhaps, people differ in this respect. Or perhaps it depends what the rest of their diet is made up of.

Throughout recorded history, salt has always been highly prized. The word 'salary', meaning our weekly pay, is derived from the word 'salt; Roman soldiers were paid in salt. Admittedly, this was after the agricultural revolution, but it does demonstrate the high regard people had for salt.

No my cat didn't add salt, but she had no need to. If you taste blood, you will find that is salty. But we drain the blood from animals as soon as they are slaughtered. That is why it is necessary to add it.

You are right that Lutz doesn't eat salt. This is because he believes it causes cancer. He hasn 't lived low-carb, however, since he married his present wife, Helen, about 11 years ago. Unfortunately, at 95, Wolfgang is quite frail and has to rely on Helen for everything. She is a type-2 diabetic who won't do what Wolfie or I tell her.

regards

Barry
Author: Natural Health & Weight Loss
Co-producer: Your Perfect Weight: Be slim without dieting (DVD / video)
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk
http://www.diabetes-diet.org.uk
http://www.cholesterol-and-health.org.uk
http://www.theperfectweight.com

Meat eaters do not need to dose themselves with salt. NO carnivore
ever eats salt. The body can control sodium loss to the point that
the loss per day is measured in micrograms.

My instinct is not to answer your nonsensical questions, as it is
blatantly due entirely to food obsession.

One time and no more, ok? If you are not happy and comfortable
eating this way, give it up.

Food is not something you should obsess about and if you do, eating
will be a chore or a worry- give it up and return to comfort, it is
perhaps better to live a short but happy life than a long and unhappy
one.

Salt is in ALL tissues, the blood is not different in any way.
Animals bleed out when torn apart by a carnivore, very few of which
bother to kill their prey before eating them.

Cooking meat a little like searing, causes the juices to evaporate,
increasing the salt content.

Cramps at noght have NOTHING to do with sodium, the culprit is
magnesium, why somw people get low on this element is not something I
can answer, but it has happened to me from time to time. Eat some
magnesium, even a little epsom salts will do the job.
--

Cheers.


Bear

http://www.thebear.org

[wodgina]

The bear doesn't mince his words does he?
I don't agree with his magnesium for night time cramps idea,  I'm starting to think that cramps maybe have nothing to do with anything and are phantom affliction and come and go for no real reason.
It may even mean your healthy?

[boxcarguy07]

I find it kind of funny that the Bear advises to relax and not worry when he himself comes off as so uptight and defensive.

Anyway, I really don't understand what the thread title has to do with the content of the post.
Salt is a chemical? So is everything else, really. What does salt being a chemical have to do with your letter or its responses.


Also, the Bear's idea about lightly searing meat to increase salt content is pure nonsense. If the juices evaporate, then all that is happening is that the salt may become more concentrated, but it certainly doesn't increase the salt content.

If we're talking about plain white table salt, then yes I think it's very safe to say that it should not be consumed at all. But an unbleached, unheated sea salt like Realsalt, well, I myself have no qualms about eating it.

[TylerDurden]

I am one of those whose cramps were most definitely caused by magnesium-deficiency, via dairy-consumption. And I believe  the Bear is right in stating that natural salts exist in all meats, not just in blood.

[Kristelle]

And the Bear includes some dairy in his diet so makes sense that he would need to supplement with magnesium occasionally. I never have any cramps, do not supplement and I'm zero-carbing. I exercise 2-3 x weekly.

[wodgina]

I am one of those whose cramps were most definitely caused by magnesium-deficiency, via dairy-consumption. And I believe  the Bear is right in stating that natural salts exist in all meats, not just in blood.

How did you know it was dairy induced magnesium deficiency though? dairy contains lots of things which can cause problems. Did taking magnesium cure them or did just stop drinking milk cure them...?

Electrolyte levels have been measured in people who cramp and those that don't and there's no difference!

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/muscle-cramps.htm

It's looking like over excitability of muscles is the cause not electrolytes.

Interesting article on marathon running.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/03/sports/sportsspecial/03marathon.html?n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/Subjects/N/New%20York%20City%20Marathon

[TylerDurden]

How did you know it was dairy induced magnesium deficiency though? dairy contains lots of things which can cause problems. Did taking magnesium cure them or did just stop drinking milk cure them...?

I am pretty certain that magnesium-deficiency was the cause as many of my symptoms I'd had during my raw-dairy-phase(and prerawpaleo diet) were listed under standard lists of magnesium-deficiency symptoms. Plus, I did, at various stages, go without dairy, both during prerawpalaeo days, and for a month or two while doing a Primal Diet minus the raw dairy, before I was able to find a raw-dairy-source - and there was no improvement, whatsoever as regards my cramps. So, the cramps I had were clearly not part of my dairy-allergy, but more to do with adrenal burnout and related magnesium-deficiency, as excess calcium in dairy blocks magnesium-uptake into the body. Plus, after I cut out the raw dairy from my raw animal food diet, I went in for foods high in minerals such as raw oysters etc., which must have done the trick.

[Squall]

The Bear's link doesn't appear to have anything diet related in it. All I see is silver, enamel, and some Grateful Dead stuff. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong spot?

I had never encountered 'the Bear' before coming to this forum, but I have to say, the guy sounds like an ass. The only two messages I've read from him to members here were highly dismissive and almost seemed to go against keep a questioning attitude. Both indicated that the questions were pointless and that if you don't like the lifestyle go somewhere else. One of the criteria I use in adding/changing nutritional habits is what the average disposition is of the people who have been doing it. Are they calm? Healthy? Happy? Vegetarianism turned me off because a lot of the veg eaters I knew seemed like ticking emotional time bombs. And I'd have to say, whatever the Bear says will be taken with a grain of salt by me because his lifestyle choices have obviously not been working for him if he's such a crab. True, there could be mitigating circumstances, but I'd be suspicious.

Salt is in ALL tissues, the blood is not different in any way. Animals bleed out when torn apart by a carnivore, very few of which bother to kill their prey before eating them.

Not all the blood is lost and not all carnivores tear apart animals so completely as to spill all of their blood on the ground. Considering that blood is a source of good nutrition that is easily obtained once the animal is killed, it would seem odd of Nature to select for berserker-style carcass mutilation in carnivores. A more likely adaptation would be the ability to quickly deliver a killing blow, bite, or swipe without needless wasting of the energy in their fresh kill. Consider also the tremendous amount of energy needed to 'tear apart' another animal. What would be the point? Also, many animals lap up anything they spill on the ground, and some (cats) have highly abrasive tongues that can lick just about every speck of organic matter from any surface (even dirt).

Considering humans: in order for paleolithic humans to 'tear apart' their prey, they would have to kill it then gather around it, and immediately start hacking away at it with the sharpest implements they have. That would not be machetes, BTW, it would be flint tools. True this was probably done later when the kill was being dressed, but once again, they have the choice in wasting such a nutritious resource, or conserving it by being careful in their dressing methods. I highly doubt humans engaged in such wasteful activities. And, if they did not, then they would have had copious amounts of blood to ingest. Furthermore, if blood was consumed for a long time (millions of years) then our bodies are most likely adapted to having it, along with its high sodium content. Supplementing with good salt therefore should not be frowned upon. However, if you've gotten by without it, then you probably have nothing to worry about.

[Nicola]

The Bear's link doesn't appear to have anything diet related in it. All I see is silver, enamel, and some Grateful Dead stuff. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong spot?

http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/?p=1309

http://activenocarber.myfreeforum.org/Concise_Bear_about1646.html

Nicola

[TylerDurden]

Just a comment re The Bear's aggressive stance. Virtually, every single diet guru(or wannabe guru) has generally been highly aggressive and unpleasant as regards debunking other peoples' critical arguments(I'm thinking of Aajonus and Sally Fallon, among many, many others). This is necessary, as many are defending their jobs as nutritionists or their reputations as experts in their own particular dietary hobby(eg:- The Bear), and the best way to win an argument is to always go on the attack. About the only diet-guru I've come across who has been even remotely civil with others, on a consistent basis, has been Loren Cordain, although that doesn't necessarily validate his arguments re diet.

In short. one should always ignore the human factor and just focus on the validity of the diet, or lack thereof.

Re salt:- I think it's pretty clear that salt was used in Neolithic times  primarily as a preservative, not as a nutritional supplement. People forget that, in those days, they had no fridges so they had to salt and dry their meats in order to preserve them for sufficient periods. Prior to the Neolithic era, though, there would have been no settled civilisation, so salt-mining would not have been possible, and open sources of salt were only available in certain areas in the world.

[JustAnotherExplorer]

The Bear's link doesn't appear to have anything diet related in it. All I see is silver, enamel, and some Grateful Dead stuff. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong spot?

Yep, looking in the wrong spot.  His diet and exercise text is in his Essay section.

http://www.thebear.org/essays1.html#anchor496162

[Satya]

Just a comment re The Bear's aggressive stance. Virtually, every single diet guru(or wannabe guru) has generally been highly aggressive and unpleasant as regards debunking other peoples' critical arguments(I'm thinking of Aajonus and Sally Fallon, among many, many others). This is necessary, as many are defending their jobs as nutritionists or their reputations as experts in their own particular dietary hobby(eg:- The Bear), and the best way to win an argument is to always go on the attack. About the only diet-guru I've come across who has been even remotely civil with others, on a consistent basis, has been Loren Cordain, although that doesn't necessarily validate his arguments re diet.

In short. one should always ignore the human factor and just focus on the validity of the diet, or lack thereof.

While I do agree that it takes some effort to knock the dietary dogma du jour, I don't think rudeness and statements of "trust me, I know" are ever helpful.  It encourages blind followings (which is usually what these gurus are fighting against in the first place!).  I will take Sally Fallon as an example, since I corresponded with her on occasion when I was in the WAPF; and have no clue about these other gurus.  Fallon uses her own personal experience when considering what is okay for health or not above and beyond the evidence from what I have seen.  For example, she claimed on the WAPF chapter leader's list that 'smoking can help cure asthma.'  Her Dad smoked so it's okay.  She also has ignored repeated and increasing numbers of reports of gluten and dairy intolerance in members and continues to push these fermented neolithic products as health panaceas.

http://onibasu.com/archives/cl/13498.html  - here, read Fallon's words on whatever subject she speaks on in her powow group archived

The problem is that these gurus get inflated egos and say things on many subjects for which they may have no evidence.  And people who want to sheepishly follow them soak it up and may suffer from it.  And come on people, this is food.  Did paleo man fret about every tiny little nutrient (none of which they knew about)?  Do we need a self help guru for every little thing.  Must we idolize everyone who has some sound advice in some arena?  I much prefer the peer-based dialogue that we have going on here than commandments given from on high by any self-proclaimed guru!

That said, yes, perhaps the rudeness can be ignored.  And certainly, these guru trailblazers have much to offer.  The Bear still lacks substance that I would find compelling, however.  It may be that zero carb works well for some people.  And it may work for him.  But clear thinking people must logically conclude nothing about themselves from such statements!  Eat good food y'all, so that you can reason beyond the hype.  Each of us must live in our own skin and probably each of us know ourselves better than anyone else does.

[Nicola]

This is what Dr. Groves has to say to the Bear's answer:

Hello Nicola

It is true that no carnivore ADDS salt, or looks for a salt-lick in the wild as herbivores do. But that is because blood in meat is salty. Meat killed and eaten soon after death contains salt; a lion eats the bloody meat. But our modern methods of bleeding animals and hanging the carcase for weeks, reduce the amount of salt in most store-bought meat.

But, I agree with Bear: why obsess about it? There is no danger from eating more salt than your body needs. The excess is merely secreted, either in sweat or in urine. And, yes, the kidneys do conserve salt quite well. But if you sweat a lot because of physical work or living in a hot climate, it is not just water shortage that can kill you bu the loss of salt.

I add very little salt to my food; I have difficulty getting even close to the 6 grams we are supposed to eat (it's usually struggle to add 1 gram). But do I know when I am not getting enough because I do get cramps, as does my wife and several others I know of. I have proven (at least to my satisfaction). that insufficient salt is to blame for these occurances.

regards

Barry


Well all I can say is that both the Bear and Dr. Groves eat cheese so that will change "the picture" they have of what is going on in the body!

I will reduce this salt water I take and see how that is; I feel a little of this salt water helps the body in many ways, it's just finding out how little it  need's.

Nicola

[TylerDurden]

Barry Groves conveniently forgets that it's a  well-known fact that Palaeolithic humans would do FAR more exercise than modern humans, on a daily basis. And yet, despite all that activity, they still didn't need to go in for mining salt-mines etc.